I made young girls believe that they would be defined by whom they married, and how they supported him. I taught young boys that their life would be fulfilled by finding a way to serve the Lord above all else, and die doing it. I taught young people that the only way to live was to forsake life. I taught them to believe in a gospel that forced them to work, and work harder, to test themselves to see if even then they were working hard enough.
I believed that salvation was found through stripping yourself of your identity and taking on an identity that has to be fully immersed in perpetual spirituality, praying more than enough, reading the Bible more than enough, being in the fellowship of those who do the same. I believed that if you did not do these things, you would be lost. You would turn gay. You would be an alcoholic or drug addict. You would end up pregnant and manless. Of course following all of this, you would burn in hell.
I taught people that they could earn their salvation. I taught people that they could loose it.
What is worse? For me, at least, it is the reality that I taught these things, and I did not even know I was teaching it.
The only thing I fed myself for years was sermons. Thousands of them. Most of these sermons came from the same tribe. I became an isolationist. I believed, without even realizing it, that I had something figured out that nobody else did.
When I started to learn that I didn’t really have anything figured out, I questioned. For that, I was shunned. The problem with being shunned is that all you have known to supposedly be true of loving the Body of Christ is a lie.
The church of today does not believe in unity of the faith. It is a fiction. The church of today churns out people who have just enough information to reject Christ, and violently explain why. The church of today creates people who have to point out the evils of the church. Some do it satirically, some do it boldly, some do it eloquently.
The church of today hates people. The church of today embraces only those who can align themselves with systems built by men. The church today eats it’s own.
I hate the church.
I want to see the real Church. I fear it is as lost as I am.
I feel like I should say more, because I’ve been at a similar place, not only pastors get there, but I think it’s a journey each person finds their own way through.
Reuben, London,
You are each beloved by Jesus.
You, each, unfold the love within you and share it with others, in the simplest ways, in the most unsensational, quiet, unrecordable, unpublishable, just as He wants it to be.
When it becomes visible, then, that’s nice too, but “visible only to God”, that’s how it continues, naturally.
Wishing you both unscripted and unplanned moments of joy today.
Everything Reuben says is true, except one thing … having spent my adult life as a Believer who was shunned by the success and respectability driven (led?) popular mindset of the local churches of the 60s through to the end of the century … the sheep aren’t lost 🙂
yesterday G, gently took me to task for my observation on the prophesied day that God would be revealed (His true glory and holiness) for all of unsaved mankind to see – i used the graphic expletive “holy sh*t” to define what their reaction would be (not the Church’s reaction) because God is a consuming fire
God is the perfect gentleman with impeccable manners, which Christ modeled for us, but He (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is ultimately holy and i think i see that hell is necessary because of holiness – hell has nothing to do with hate – His command to love our fellow man is partly predicated on the fact of hell – however one approaches God to be reconciled and edified in His truth, His holiness should always, always humble us – hold onto the awe
but Reuben, as some say around here, “you rock” and #1 was great IMHO
Much to ponder there Reuben. Been there myself to some degree (although not nearly as legalistic) and find myself returning there again for the third time. I learned a long time ago that ministry is not the pinnacle of Christian existance. Those in ministry who have bought into that lie are evident by their lack of ethics and care for people. I don’t care how good they teach or how large their church is. If they don’t care for people and lack ethical behaivor, their work is in vain. They add little to the Kingdom of God and much to their own little cottage industry.
If I were not a christian today, what I see of the church would convert me to being a full on atheist or agnostic. While I see a dismal future, it is still not without hope. I think will eventually change, bu it will take time. I think the home church movement is on to something.
BTW, unity is a pipe dream unless it is within biblical constructs. I have a whole list of people who I can suggest that you invite to your local church; your reaction will tell you something about your own quest for unity. Unity is like religious freedom that this country was supposedly founded upon. The pilgrims wanted religious freedom alright, but only for themselves, not for any one else. Same with unity. We all want to define the parameters and God help the poor soul who goes against that flow.
em shared, “God is the perfect gentleman with impeccable manners, which Christ modeled for us, but He (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is ultimately holy and i think i see that hell is necessary because of holiness – hell has nothing to do with hate – His command to love our fellow man is partly predicated on the fact of hell – however one approaches God to be reconciled and edified in His truth, His holiness should always, always humble us – hold onto the awe”
em, We attended church for a time where the pastor believed in annihilation of the lost. I don’t recall him ever spelling that out from the pulpit but one of his messages I caught that he might be leaning that way so after service I asked him about it.
He said that he indeed believed in the annihilation of the lost and it was something that he wrestled with deeply. I believe there are scholars who lean the same way.
I have never attended a church where the pastor held to universalism where at some point, all will arrive in Heaven to spend eternity.
The pastor who holds to annihilation preaches that one must be born again in a very orthodox manner although some would quibble as to what orthodox is. He is very concerned in obseving the baptism of the believer and of the Lord’s Supper.
I’m not sure what the universalist’s teach regarding salvation. I don’t know if they teach you must be born again and that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
It seems both these camps speak much about the goodness and love of God towards the human race.
I wonder though if God’s character is compromised in some manner because the idea of an all knowing, loving, perfect God would be capable of sending sould to an eternity away from him. How that separation would be described is a place of torment or of a place you’re stuck in for eternity knowing you rejected the truth in your earthly life.
The other day we had the Ray Comfort video to talk about. His methods may drive some to drink but he’s hell bent on keeping people out of hell and I admire a person with that concern for others.
If annihilation or universalism is true then I’m not sure what the point of anything is. Many lost people would want nothing better than to simply cease to exist after they die. No answering for sins, no reason not to sin. If universalism is true why even share the gospel with anyone? To share in Christ’s benefits in this evaporating life while holding to any of a number of false beliefs including satanism?
In our day the gospel is a stench to many due to various life experiences. If you have the gall to speak of eternal judgment it seems many under the christian umbrella have issues with you.
I am not one licking my chops to see anyone cast into outer darkness for eternity. I thought love for people is why we share with them so they could escape hell. I believe we can do that in non cartoonish ways.
People can share and be sincere in their beliefs of annihilation or universalism. I fear for those who take their last breath believing the same. Sorry for the length.
I have a question that I would like to ask the Pastors here if it is not inappropriate to do so. I personally have never heard it addressed specifically before, but what will be the purpose of the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ on Earth? Who will He be reining and why?
Sorry to display my ignorance but I really want to understand.
P.A.L.,
I am not a pastor, but there is no 1,000 year earthly reign. If you read Rev 20 properly, the scene described, the thrones and the souls of the beheaded etc are heavenly descriptions – not earthly.
erunner, I believe that hell is a subject that very plainly comes up in Scripture – it isn’t an anomalous, theological conjecture – that said, as to what hell is **exactly,** what fuels it or who will end up there? i don’t know and wouldn’t guess – i just know that it is and we do a disservice to our fellow man if we deny it … personally, i’d like to think that few are candidates for it and that it consumes totally to nothingness those who do go there … but i can’t count on that being the case … all i really can say for sure is, i believe God is and is complete – perfect – holy – and grace is such a beautiful attribute of His, not to be trifled with … as is hell
“I am not one licking my chops to see anyone cast into outer darkness for eternity. I thought love for people is why we share with them so they could escape hell.” i think i made that point back up there also – if not, i sure meant to 😯
P.A.L. i’m not a pastor either, but the pastors i respect teach differently than MLD’s does
i’ll let someone else teach the Scripture, but as to the ‘why’ of it, here’s what i suspect the point of it is the natural world will be at peace and man will see clearly what our King and His kingdom are all about:
upon Christ’s return to earth – He will set up His reign as an absolute monarch. **Satan is bound and unable to confuse and cloud men’s minds**. The natural world is at peace (lots of conjecture as to what the Saints who return with Him – no longer mortals – are expected to do … probably teaching and administration, maybe street-sweeping, i don’t know). We will see clearly what our King and His kingdom are all about for 1,000 years – literal years? i don’t know – Satan is eventually released and many, now without any excuse, with eyes wide open, still chose to follow him ( Revelation 20:7-10 ) and THEN, among other things, the cataclysmic destruction of the planet comes …
P.A.L.
As an amillenialist I believe we are in that 1,000 year period now (the time between the 2 advents of Christ.)
The 1,000 yrs is figurative for a very long period of time just as the 10 days in Rev 2: 10 represent a very short period of time.
“10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation.”
I don’t think that anyone thinks that a literal 10 days in the clink is much tribulation.
To counter Em a bit, if you read Jesus’ description of the end (and I do think his view should at least be considered) in Matt 25:31-46 you will see only his return and then judgement. He makes no mention of a 1,000 stop over.
Gotta run for a bit and get the ol’ Christmas tree. 🙂
Em,
Not intended to “take you to task”, I was just sharing what makes me say “holy &@$%” and drop my jaw, awestruck. It’s love and the beauty of the earth.
“Hell is not necessary because of holiness” anymore than “murder and rape are needed because of love and romance”! That’s just a horribly false dichotomy/contrast from a scandalous and primitive logic that has out used its momentary usefulness.
Hell was done at the cross, the ransom paid, applied to all humanity.
G, that vision of “things” sounds so good…unfortunately it sounds too good to be true, but I sincerely hope you are right. I really do. I dont’ wish hell/eternal separation from God/torment on anyone, at least not for all eternity
G, “I was just sharing what makes me say “holy &@$%” and drop my jaw, awestruck. It’s love and the beauty of the earth.” you and King David will have some singing to do 🙂
Alex,
I’ve returned to a cornerstone of my early theology, that the sacrifice and merits of Christ must necessarily apply to humanity, and that we’re simply to bring that to all who will hear and bid them to be reconciled to The Father and experience redemption. No sinners prayer necessary, just the simple response to God.
Em,
Nope, not confusing anything. Holiness is not the Ying to require a hell be the Yang.
G, “Nope, not confusing anything. Holiness is not the Ying to require a hell be the Yang.” good point as i don’t conceptualize/understand/promote it as a Yin and Yang and i did not say you were “confusing” BTW 🙂
the **fact** of holiness does not necessitate a complementary hell – however, as much as we might wish it to be so, i suspect that rebellion against God doesn’t just fade out at some point and that is the why of hell … not so much a punishment, either, rather a containment of a destructive, prideful (not to be confused with self-respect), foul, ant-god mindset, perhaps? dunno … but nuff said for today (from me at any rate)
Alex you surprise me. For a guy who is always talking about logic. fallacies and contradictions you can’t even describe a contradiction. For my statement to have been a contradictions I would have had to say;
“The 1,000 yrs is figurative for a very long period of time…”
and then the contradiction would be to follow up and say;
“The 1,000 yrs is NOT figurative for a very long period of time”
But Alex did catch me in one of my quirks – so for open disclosure, I will admit that I do read the narrative passages differently than I do the apocalyptic passages. I read the poetic passages differently than I read the historical accounts.
Alex apparently makes no distinction.
Alex, apocalyptic literature really is a genre with its own idioms and ways of being read. One of the most frustrating things about American Protestantism of the broadly evangelical sort is a failure to appreciate the ways in which literary genre and even intertestamental literature presents ideas and interpretive approaches that often get ignored by people who want to “just preach the Bible”. MLD isn’t the only amillenialist here at Phoenix Preacher and the idea that pointing out that one text presents six days as six days and another presents 1000 years as a figurative number isn’t a contradiction if we have our basics on literary forms in hand.
I have thoughts about what Reuben posted but I may have to come back and comment later. I’ve been trying to catch up with having a social life that doesn’t involve pixels this holiday season.
Wenatchee, yes of course (in terms of my knowledge of the man-made distinctions and interpretive models).
Maybe MLD can help me out here: Is the following Apocalyptic or Narrative?
Qualifications of Pastors/Elders
Church Discipline
“Tell it unto the church”
“Rebuke them publicly” command to fellow pastors/elders applicable to an “Association” IMO
“Who am I to judge those outside the church, I am to judge those inside the church”
“Expose the deeds of darkness”
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord” (Chuck Smith)
The sad fact is the church is full of Interpretive Models to filter what was approved my men of what consists of Biblical Cannon. In protestantism we leave some stuff out of the Cannon. With the stuff we kept, we have 30,000+ denominations that see things a bit differently or vastly differently on a ton of issues. It is what it is.
CC is the king of “pick and choose” and the Amoeba Bible.
MLD, from a Philosophical Logic perspective: the definition of “contradiction” is: “logical incongruity”
I “simply” pointed out the nature of Literalism and the subjective interpretation and varying Interpretive Models that are applied to what is defined as Biblical Cannon.
In one part of the Cannon: Genesis: the Time Demarcations are often taken as quite literal, as in a “literal” 6 days, six 24 hour days.
In another part of the Cannon: Revelation: some within the Tent apply a different Interpretive Model and assert the Time Demarcations are Metaphorical and not literal.
My assertion that your use of different Interpretive Models to arrive at two different Conclusions regarding Time Demarcations in your Biblical Cannon….is pointing out “logical incongruity”…or “contradiction”.
The very Strict Literalists are more Consistent and less Contradictory from a Logic/Reason perspective, especially when it comes to Time Demarcations.
“6 days” means “6 days”, “Body and Blood” means “Body and Blood” (as MLD says is literal), “Whosoever and All” means “Whosoever and All” and “1,000 years” means “1,000 years”
Again, as I’ve asserted early on with the whole “Theo Logos” argument with Rolph and my assertion that the bible is Irrational and Illogical…to which many freaked out…
I have tried to cram the biblical cannon into a Philosophically Logical / Logic/Reason Box…for a very long time.
Oh Reuben, I really feel for your pain, and you will be in my prayers. It is a hard place to be in for sure; you are not alone in that place. I think that many who read here have been/are in this place, yet I would say as a fellow sufferer not to lose faith in His goodness.
Forget’ the church’ for awhile, and see the individual, for there are real people who make the church a better and forgiving place–our very own Michael is such a one. You are also so very hard on yourself, it is painful to read. You have always impressed me as a serious young man who takes his walk very seriously, which only points to your growth now–and I think this has probably been your main mind set even in the midst of your former life. Leave a little room for grace for yourself and know that I believe whatever wrong things you felt you taught, God is able to take care of those you felt you misguided. Not to sound too simplistic, but you are too hard on yourself. The church is made up of all of us who read here and we care for you and want to encourage you to continue to believe in His goodness–it led you here. God bless you and your wife and family Reuben..
Alex,
Obviously you have never heard the axiom “If you are in a hole, stop digging.” You should just acknowledge that in your #18 you described a contradiction incorrectly and leave it at that.
Back to Rev 20 – so is there anything else you take literally in that passage. Is the key to the bottomless pit[ or the great chain – are they a literal key and chain? Did the angel “seize a literal dragon?
Are there going to be literal nations registered at the UN as Gog and Magog?
Sounds silly to me.
To the Genesis passage, I neither affirm nor deny the 6 day creation. I said the other day when we were on the topic, and I was very clear – what I do affirm is that there was a beginning, that God created and that the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity – not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.
MLD, I’ve learned not to give your take much credence and to trust my training in the area of Logic/Reason. Your track record from what you’ve demonstrated in terms of Critical Thinking, over the years on here, is pretty poor.
But that’s not the issue, the macro point is that:
It all boils down to Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority.
Scriptural is not logical.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t true or doesn’t contain truth.
It means we lack the ability to understand exactly what God intends or intended and that is exampled by the 30,000+ differing opinions underneath the “Christian” umbrella
Much boils down to Conscience, personal Conviction…loosely based on Scripture and a personal conviction of what Scripture (the Scripture we claim as official “Cannon”) is “really, truly” saying.
since it’s open here and i need to vent, i want to make a nomination for the most asinine, insulting commercial of the season: people going gaga over gifting an energy booster? (that might even be dangerous for some folks)
there ! i feel much better 🙂 🙂
MLD said, “I said the other day when we were on the topic, and I was very clear – what I do affirm is that there was a beginning, that God created and that the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity – not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.”
Where does it say that in Scripture explicitly? You interpret the passage to say what you assert above, but it doesn’t necessarily say that.
In Revelation you assume Metaphor, Allegory etc.
Yet in Genesis you seem to take a quasi-literal approach, yet you hedge on the “6 days” and then wax very literal on the description of “God created man” as somehow expressing explicitly that it means it was not as the result of a God-caused Evolutionary Process.
Genesis 2: 7″the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
MLD said, “not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.”
Are you familiar with micro-organisms? Are you familiar with micro-biology? Are you familiar with the fact that micro-organisms are found in dirt? Are you familiar with the role that microorganisms play in the Evolutionary Process?
I’m not asserting it proves or disproves Genesis as completely literal or completely allegorical…but it further illustrates, IMO, that we may not really know what God was saying through the text we assume is inspired there…other than God is Creator and every known thing in our existence and in all of existence is in a Chain of Causation and in a Causal relationship stemming from the Singularity or God.
Alex,
All you have done at best is show that man went directly from dirt, including all of it’s contents, to fully complete man, which is my position – and that is not what Darwinian evolution decrees.
What you are trying to do, in a very poor manner, is regurgitate Neil deGrasse Tyson – that we are all made of star dust. I used to go on blogs about him and tease that all his sheep like followers believe we are star man. 🙂
MLD said, “All you have done at best is show that man went directly from dirt, including all of it’s contents, to fully complete man, which is my position – and that is not what Darwinian evolution decrees.”
What I did was show that you stated “the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity”
which seems to say that you believe God waved a magic wand and created man from nothing…when in fact the Scripture says He made man from “dirt” which includes micro-organisms…and dirt is a substance…it is a “separate entity”…therefore your statement is factually incorrect if you are appealing to a literal interpretation of Scripture.
My further point was that we really don’t know. God could very well have imparted a very general truth w/o explaining in detail the “process” of “becoming” or “come to pass”. It is generally accepted as fact in the current Scientific Consensus that man’s “becoming” began with organic micro-organisms.
Much like the Genesis account takes broad leaps in other areas and doesn’t lay out a step-by-step-by-step Cause/Effect scientific explanation of each piece of Creation…but rather summarizes quite generally and quite succinctly what was most likely very complex and very time consuming (which we observe today in areas like Geology, Physics, Astrophysics, biology etc). Genesis appears to be an inspired text that was intended to communicate some very basic truths about Existence/Origins to a primitive man in the form of the Ancient Hebrews.
To make it a Science Book and to make Revelation a Horoscope…I just don’t think either Position is particularly strong…especially with regards to Genesis as there is much we observe today that contradicts assumptions and interpretations forced upon the text by some in Christian-land.
There comes a point where the truth we observe vs. the truth we think we see in Scripture regarding non-essentials like origins…one must be open to the possibility one has interpreted the ancient text incorrectly or read it as a literal science book incorrectly…when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.
Other instances where our “truth” evolved from Ancient times…to today…as we increased in knowledge (which I believe that increase in knowledge is part of God’s providence).
Stunned that you have not heard of Tyson. Anyone who has ever opened a book on astrophysics has heard of Tyson – I guess that Master’s College education only goes so far. 🙂
But let’s take a step back on the creation of Adam – which I do not toss away as some non essential like you. If there was no literal Adam, created special by God actually breathing life into him, if there is no literal Adam who was literally the first man who along with Eve committed the first sin, then the joke is on Jesus – and I do not consider that a non essential
“There comes a point where the truth we observe vs. the truth we think we see in Scripture regarding non-essentials like origins… when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.”
I taught today of the Paradox of Christmas. Next week on the Virgin Birth. Now you have scrambled my preparation, since as you mentioned I have to take in to consideration, NOT what the scriptures say, but I have to compare the virgin birth with … how did you say it? “when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.”
Well, 100% of the verifiable, tested, repeated observations tell me the Bible lied about the virgin birth.
Alex,
“Stoning people to death. – Slavery – Concubines and Polygamy.”
Are you saying that God ordered these or allowed these as 100% OK back in those days because the people were too stupid and unevolved to really understand God?
God allows what you call evil because he didn’t know what else to do?
why would any child of God attempt to judge the Bible against the ever evolving discoveries of science? when it’s all over every scientist, child of God or not, will be red faced and grabbing their nappies, not to mention those of us for whom either discipline has only been dabbled in …
MLD, didn’t mean to give you that impression re: Tyson. I know who the dude is, I’m just not familiar enough with his work to have an informed opinion. He is a favorite of some of my Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic friends.
MLD said, ““Stoning people to death. – Slavery – Concubines and Polygamy.”
Are you saying that God ordered these or allowed these as 100% OK back in those days because the people were too stupid and unevolved to really understand God?
God allows what you call evil because he didn’t know what else to do?”
Are you saying Stoning people to death, Slavery and Concubines/Polygamy at one time were righteous and now aren’t?
MLD said, “But let’s take a step back on the creation of Adam – which I do not toss away as some non essential like you. If there was no literal Adam, created special by God actually breathing life into him, if there is no literal Adam who was literally the first man who along with Eve committed the first sin, then the joke is on Jesus – and I do not consider that a non essential”
I think there was a literal Adam…I just think he was probably the first “man” within the Chosen blood line of Jesus…who received his humanness and “knowledge of good and evil”…his intellect/conscience/soul/mind/spirit…what makes us fully “human”.
Who did Cain and Abel breed with, btw? Eve? Their sisters?
Genesis 4:16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. 17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.
Here’s my Theory: The YEC Crowd has the Earth as 6,000 years old…yet we have fossil records and evidence of prehistoric man, etc. The Earth and Universe seem to be much older than 6,000 years (insert tons of evidence here).
What is fascinating is that the “earliest known human civilization” and “earliest recorded history” arises around 6,000 years ago:
“Earliest known civilization arises in Sumer (4500–4000 B.C.). Earliest recorded date in Egyptian calendar (4241 B.C.). First year of Jewish calendar (3760 B.C.)”
Earth: Old.
Universe: Old.
Evolved Man with the “knowledge of good and evil” and conscience/mind/eternal soul: Young.
I think it is very possible Adam was a literal man, the “first” evolved human in the line of Jesus…the Hebrews/Semites.
It is also possible that other “men” evolved at a similar time…and that when Cain was banished to “the Land of Nod, east of Eden”…he married a woman that was not his sister.
It seems it is possible that the Genesis Account and OT in general is held in tension/in the context of the “world” being the region of the Hebrews and the Blood line of Jesus and God’s “Chosen”…as opposed to the rest of the planet and the rest of the people’s that were most likely there during the time of Adam and Cain.
I think it is “possible” that Adam is an Archetype as well as a literal person who existed on this planet, in this existence.
And what is the problem if Cain and Abel married their sisters?- I don’t see the issue – and I think you are falsely making one.
Also, are you saying that the people of NOD were some kind of human mutants who did not know “good from evil” – that the line from Cain was something similar to half zombies?
MLD said, “And what is the problem if Cain and Abel married their sisters?- I don’t see the issue – and I think you are falsely making one.”
I think that another people living in the Land of Nod, east of Eden…who would have had to be brothers and sisters of Cain…is highly unlikely in that Cain was “cast out”. Why would it have been such a big punishment to cast Cain out…if his bros and sisses went there already on their own…and then he marries a sister?
And the text seems to imply there is some sort of group there with some sort of society already developed.
Well, for all you know, and the text does not say, this could be 100 yrs after Cain and Abel were born – so there could already be 5 or 6 generations of people from Adam & Eve living in the Nodland. – 1,000s of people
The other half of my extended family lives in New York. I would consider it a punishment if someone made me go live there with them.
Cain built a “city” according to the Genesis account. If Cain was building a “city”…who the heck was living in the Caves and making all the cave paintings and cave drawings that have been discovered all over the world?
MLD said, ‘Also, are you saying that the people of NOD were some kind of human mutants”
No, IMO it’s entirely possible they were an evolved group of humans who were not in Adam’s family, not in Adam’s lineage, until Cain was banished and sent there.
MLD said, “Why did God have to make a special wife for Adam – why didn’t he just import one of the “pre-historic ladies?”
Good question. I’ve wrestled with that issue a lot in the context of Antony Flew’s sticking point with regards to Evolution being initial reproduction.
If my theory is correct (which it’s just a theory, but probably as tenable as a talking garden snake, etc) is that the description of Eve being created from Adam’s rib is story-telling device same manner as Adam from dust. It’s an extremely simple way of explaining a very complex process to impart a truth. Eve was possibly both Archetype and literal human.
Eve was representative of womankind and the truth imparted was that God created her…and that Eve was the literal person who, like Adam, attained “the knowledge of good and evil” along with Adam, as his contemporary and his wife…and so began the line of Jesus and the Hebrew/Semites.
MLD said, ‘So, was there sin in the world BEFORE Adam & Eve from these other people?”
Well, there’s the “sin entered the world through one man”…but in the context of the Genesis account and the Torah etc being specific to the Hebrew/Semites…vs. the other Groups of ancient man, etc…it’s very possible that “sin” entered the “world” of the Hebrews through Adam…while others attained the “knowledge of good and evil” as they interacted with Fallen Angels described in the Book of Enoch: The Watchers…and discussed a bit in the Genesis account.
It appears that the Fallen Angels fell to earth/this existence/this dimension, prior to humans attaining their soul/humanity.
All Ancient Civilizations have accounts of “gods” and Serpents, etc…and seem to have quite a bit of knowledge they attained very rapidly. Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians, etc etc…very interesting studies. Ancient Chinese civilization etc.
Ancient Sumerians and many other ancient cultures describe “serpent” beings of intelligence, btw.
my 9:10pm: also consider the context of “Chosen” people when considering that the Hebrew “world” was not necessarily the entire existence and other groups of people, and vise versa.
What does the knowledge of good and evil have to do with sin? Adam and Eve sinned BEFORE the had the knowledge of Good and Evil – they acquired the knowledge through sin.
MLD said, “What does the knowledge of good and evil have to do with sin? Adam and Eve sinned BEFORE the had the knowledge of Good and Evil – they acquired the knowledge through sin.”
Ah, but how would they know it was “sin” if they didn’t have the “knowledge” of what was “good and evil” yet?
Yes, fun discussion. Like the old days before our relationship went sideways. Appreciate the good spirited nature in this one. I hope to keep it that way on my end.
yes, I loved the X-files 🙂
Have a good evening. I’m sure folks have had enough for one night.
Alex,
Here is something for you to consider. Look at the whole back story that you had to create and insert into the story. A separate set of humans, from a different line than Adam, perhaps centuries olde who grew to a greater population than the Eden area – just so you can accommodate evolution into the story.
I think Mormonism started the same way – different back story, but similar purpose – to make man closer to God… or at least to bring God down a peg or two.
After reading all that, I must say MLD had the best point for last. There does seem to be a lot of extra-biblical theorizing and supposition on the part of people who try to explain how evolution could fit into the bible. Never has been convincing.
At one time, I was interested in looking into views that challenged science for an old-earth creation. All it took to convince me that science ain’t all that was to see a simple description of the inaccuracies of radioisotope dating, if the age sample of lava rock samples from Mt. St. Helens are dated in the millions of years then the science is not accurate. Not saying I have all the knowledge on this, but I have heard it explained and grasped the process and it was not convincing. I will stick with my “foolish” knowledge. 🙂
I remember hearing that the stalagtites growing beneath Lincoln’s tomb (less than 200 years old) were radioisotoped in a blind test and they came up with them being in the age of millions of years. It was only something I heard Chuck Missler talk about back in the 70’s and I would love to see proof of the statement. It would be an excellent talking point when discussing geology ages and old earth, young earth.
MLD said, “Alex,
Here is something for you to consider. Look at the whole back story that you had to create and insert into the story. A separate set of humans, from a different line than Adam, perhaps centuries olde who grew to a greater population than the Eden area – just so you can accommodate evolution into the story.
I think Mormonism started the same way – different back story, but similar purpose – to make man closer to God… or at least to bring God down a peg or two.”
You just described about every Eschatological Theory, and about every of the 30,000+ flavors/denominations of Christianity out there to one degree or another, regarding one particular issue or another.
Even Lutheranism does same/similar. It is what it is.
Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority…and a lot of our “truth” is filling in the gaps and jumping to conclusions.
None take a strict “literal” “simple” approach to the text. Everyone filters it through “proper hermeneutic” etc which is an Interpretive Model…everyone explains away verses that don’t fit their Box, etc.
The Amil Position you proclaim discounts all of the “Apocalyptic” text of Revelation and assigns to it “1,000 years doesn’t mean 1,000 years” and that “reign” doesn’t mean reign in the sense of literal, but rather metaphorical/spiritual.
Lots of theorizing against the explicit words of the text. It’s the nature of Christianity.
Regarding the “Mormon” comment….there are many in the Christian Dispensational Camp that believe in “Progressive Revelation”…to varying degrees.
I dunno about any of it. I know the Core Truths and believe them…after that, as I’ve stated many times…”we see through a glass darkly”…and there is much to speculate about and theorize about…and as 30,000+ denominations and mainlines illustrate: No one really knows for sure what is “Absolutely Correct!” theology etc. We’re all guessing to one degree or another and relying on Conscience, Conviction and the Group we think is more correct in their Interpretation.
Has anybody ever seen a list of the “30,000” denominations. I realize that is an atheist talking point, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of being accurate.
Rueben always gets some of the best threads going here (even off topic) 🙂
when our children were young we were very active in a young earth/creationist society (founded by a Lutheran pastor out of Boise BTW) … today i’d say that my reaction to the whole debate is, “oh shut up – if you’re not a scientist – and a very good one in a discipline that addresses the age of the earth in some way (i think anthropologists are strange) – you’re going to go where your heart leads you anyway … the whole debate is motivated by those who want to prove there is or isn’t a God and neither side can do that as they are about 2,000 years too late … just sayin
and amen to #s 77 & 79 … i am old and i can’t think of one single teacher/pastor that i ever heard that didn’t change & retract portions of their teaching over time …
RE: carbon dating. I’ve argued that same position, but the issue of “Starlight” is the really tough one.
Even “Answers in Genesis” acknowledges the sound observational science behind how astronomers etc determine that Stars, Galaxies etc are very very far away.
Mathematical models prove that based off the speed of light, the light we see today is very very old, the stuff happened a long long time ago, much longer than 6,000 years…which makes the Universe much older than the planet Earth.
From Answers in Genesis: “The distant starlight question has caused some people to question cosmic distances. “Do we really know that galaxies are so far away? Perhaps they are much closer, so the light really doesn’t travel very far.”1 However, the techniques that astronomers use to measure cosmic distances are generally logical and scientifically sound. They do not rely on evolutionary assumptions about the past. Moreover, they are a part of observational science (as opposed to historical/origins science); they are testable and repeatable in the present. You could repeat the experiment to determine the distance to a star or galaxy, and you would get approximately the same answer. So we have good reason to believe that space really is very big. In fact, the amazing size of the universe brings glory to God”
AIG gives up the fact that the distances are far…they then try to question whether or not light travels at the same speed all the time…which is quite a stretch.
The Starlight issue is a huge problem for Young Earth/Young Universe. It just is.
“According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations.
Center for the Study of Global Christianity (2011)”
Fact is, there are a TON of differences in interpretation of Scripture, in even defining what is Canon and what isn’t and in Interpretations etc of the bible.
@87 – of course there are differences in interpretation of Scripture. Have you ever taken a literature course and discussed Shakespeare? People have differing points of view…on everything. I can’t imagine why that is an issue for anybody.
I never did buy or believe the “20,000 denoms” line. Xenia used to use it a lot. I didn’t realize it was a favorite among RCs, especially their fevered converts from horrid Protestantism.
Alex, “Differing points of view”…as I recall MLD stated in his original post on this thread that he was an “amillennialist”, which, to a christian, states that he holds a differing view among other points of view. To me, reading this thread, it seems that you took issue with his millennialism originally, not the other way around.
James White makes a lot of noise in that article about “33,000 denominations myth” but, pretty much the only success he has is in questioning the specific number…while in fact seemingly confirming that there are a large number of differences in Christianity…whether it be 33,000 or 9,000.
White’s “conclusion” is pretty vague…he doesn’t refute or prove that there aren’t a ton of denominations and differences of opinion….rather he questions whether the number is “33,000” or just maybe 9,000 or so. Even if it was 1,000….that’s a lot of divergence of opinion…and all claiming the Holy Spirit and all appealing to the same bible as authoritative.
Any which way you slice it, it illustrates the Subjective nature of Scripture interpretation and why I hang my hat on very few core essentials…and hang my hat on issues that are very straightforward like Pastoral Qualifications, etc.
The Theological/doctrinal nuance…I have a ton of theories. The Eschatological stuff: tons of theories and it’s fun to speculate.
Origins: same, tons of theories, fun to speculate, but who really knows absolutely 100% for sure…and who has to know to be officially “saved”
Reuben – you are not alone. Been through that far country myself.
Josh – Below is an example of a study done in 2010 re: number of non-demon/independent churches in just the US. This counts all the “pop up” churches, like storefront, sharing other spaces which may have less than 50 folks. Probably doesn’t factor in house churches, others that don’t list in church directories or advertise in local papers etc.
A more recent estimate is 64, 600 separate sects which includes a recognition of more of the ‘preacher with a new vision’ startups. In some states/cities especially with more pentecostal influences the numbers are higher. Maybe because of believing God still revelating is accepted – ie. “the Lord told me” this is the new or better way
Then you have all the multitude of schizms under mainline umbrella labels like ” baptist”.
So the number of “denominations” may be lower, but the number of different independent, non-affiliated groups is quite high. Because of the constant flux of the division and new vision phenomenon including the fact that some startups don’t last long, it is impossible to get an exact count.
Even if it were only 5, 10 thousand, the point Alex was making regarding core truths and interpretation still stands. When you factor in the multitude of ways individuals personalize, understand and practice what they are taught within their faith community, the lack of consensus and consistency on even the very basic tenets of faith is mind boggling.
Derek, actually, i pointed out a “contradiction” in MLD’s logic, to which he replied that it wasn’t a contradiction, to which i replied that it was from a Philosophical Logic perspective and then MLD went on to illustrate how subjective his interpretive Filter is (though trying to argue that he takes stuff the “correct” way from Scripture) by illustrating the “different’ ways he reads and interprets different parts of the bible etc.
The convo evolved from there. Pardon the double entendre 🙂
Derek, MLD seems to believe that “his” way of interpreting Scripture is better and “correct” while progressive revelation or theorizing about origins that differs with his take is invalid, etc…
which is why I challenged “Differing points of view”
I’m in the Camp that says “Dunno” on many issues.
MLD is in the Camp that says, “I’ve got it all figured out, my way is correct”
That’s the Context of that statement you question above.
I think to many I proved the point well re: the fact that MLD doesn’t really know for sure much of anything…neither do I, neither do you…but we tend to think “our” “correct” take on everything in Scripture is “the” correct take.
…when in reality, there is a vast divergence of opinion all appealing to the same or similar bible/canon scripture etc.
My dealings with Calvary Chapel especially illustrate this point. The Pick-and-Choose nature of “simply” teaching and doing what the bible says “simply” is very subjective. It depends on what Chuck Smith and the particular CC Franchisee Pastor want to do or not do.
@94 – Let’s assume that every Protestant is a denomination unto himself. So, there are millions of protestant denominations. Why does that matter? People read things differently, people understand things differently. People can be guided by the Spirit, but the fact that people are human neccesitates that we all have a flawed understanding. Why is that a problem for anyone?
Oh, I know much of nothing. But, I do know some things for sure. But just an observation here, you, Alex, seem to thrive on uncertainty and aren’t afraid to wield it. The only problem is uncertainty never convinces anyone.
We can’t be 100% certain that our foot will hold up on our next step, but we keep walking.
I did want to respond in some way to Reuben at #1. I feel that pain, and understand exactly where you are. I’ve been there too. Believe it or not, I think it is a healthy place, or at least a place that health can grow from.
Here would be my slight challenge to you. Take the church for what she is, and stop waiting for something else. The church is here, and she is beautiful, even with all of her flaws. Try to look on her with unconditional love, instead of hatred. Your son will never be able to do anything that will exclude him from your love. He’ll make mistakes, he’ll probably hurt you deeply, but you will always love him. I wonder if we should see God’s church in the same light. Yes, she is flawed. Yes, she has hurt many, but she is family. She is us. I’ve found that perspective to be helpful in moving forward.
Derek said, “The only problem is uncertainty never convinces anyone.”
Do you know of anyone who was argued into the Kingdom Derek? Or is it a Supernatural work of God through the Holy Spirit?
I am comfortable in my uncertainty…it is intellectually honest. One of the largest stumbling blocks to my Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic friends is when “Christians” display their ignorance and flaunt it in their faces…when from their perspective, the sound “observation science” as Answers in Genesis calls it, just doesn’t affirm the particular position being forced as undeniable fact by some in Christian-land.
I pray for my unbelieving friends, I try to point out big holes in their so-called 100% correct Belief Systems and poke holes and point out the Philosophical Logic holes in their Gurus arguments and point to areas like Theoretical Physics that assert all sorts of things we cannot “see, test, repeat, verify” etc but are believed by many scientists to be reality and fact like 11 Dimensions, Parallel/Alternate/Bubble universes, dimensions (spiritual dimension perhaps?) that are right there, but we can’t see them, etc.
I’ll never argue one of them into the Kingdom. But, I’ve found it doesn’t help to be intellectually dishonest and not call a spade a spade when there are things through “observation Science” that just don’t add up when contrasted with “some” parts of Christian-land that try to make Genesis a Science Book.
My issue is that every time you come up with some crazy (but popular with your atheist friends) views on a Bible passage is that your excuse is always the same “everyone has crazy ideas, no one knows any truth, and my idea is just as good as anyones.”
MLD, my Atheist friends think my take is crazy as well 😆
none of my stuff is popular with them, as I continue to argue that God “is” and that despite the flustercluck that Christianity is, it doesn’t mean God isn’t real.
Alex,
“MLD is in the Camp that says, “I’ve got it all figured out, my way is correct””
I have never said that (although I may believe it 😉 ) My point has always been that I take the Bible for what it says.
This is my Body – simple enough
Baptism saves – simple enough
In the beginning – simple enough
God created everything through Jesus Christ – simple enough
God created man and woman fully – simple enough
Most hard things I don’t get into. I never try to explain theodicies because God always comes out smaller in the explanation.
Your uncertainty principle is not very convincing to me at least, it is just more postmodern talk that appeals to people who don’t want to believe anything anyways. And yes, I do believe that people coming to the kingdom is a Holy Spirit thing, but you should have a little idea how your actions are guided by Him to either loosen or harden a heart. I don’t see how it could argue someone into the Kingdom, but I see how it could harden someone against it.
Hey MLD, I have been enjoying that book “God of the Mundane” and I read on some other thread that Lutherans had the handle on work and vocation. Got any resources you can recommend?
Which of these other uses of 1,000 do you take literally
1.) 1 day is like 1,000 yrs to the Lord – is a literal 1,000 yr equation being spoken of here?
2.) The cattle owned by God on 1,000 hills – who owns the cattle on all the other hills?
3.) Deut 7:9 – God keeps his covenant to 1,000 generations – does he break his covenant at yrs 1,001?
1,000 is almost always used to indicate a very long period of time. No man has ever lived 1,000 yrs so it is like the unknown period of time.
But you never answered me about the Literal chain and key in Rev Twenty along with the literal UN member nations Gog and Magog.
Derek said, “but you should have a little idea how your actions are guided by Him to either loosen or harden a heart. I don’t see how it could argue someone into the Kingdom, but I see how it could harden someone against it.”
You seem to be asserting that God is not in control, that ‘we’ are partly responsible for how we “argue” and that our actions will influence whether someone is saved or hardened, no?
This is a very important and very interesting rabbit trail that I’ve wrestle with often…it leads to some very interesting questions
MLD, all you are doing is illustrating how subjective your approach is.
Stuff is literal when you want it to be, allegorical when you want it to be, metaphorical when you want it to be. It’s the nature of applying Interpretative Models to text. We all do it.
When you do it, you claim “your” interpretation is “correct”.
I’m simply saying, I “think” and “probably” and “maybe”…but I dunno.
My hope is in Jesus and salvation. My hope is that God “is” and that He is Creator, and that no matter how it all came about, whether the wave of a magic wand and “poof!” it’s here…or a Quantum, Astronomical, Biological, Physical “process”….I dunno.
With regards to Revelation…dunno as well.
If some dude rises to power and starts making folks put chips in their hands or forehead…I’ll probably change my position 🙂
…I do “see” a World Central Bank and new World Reserve Currency to transact Global Trade though. That’s an extremely high probability after another major global economic debt crisis.
But, I’m happy we can have our long discussions again in an amicable manner and I appreciate the patience of the Community.
That’s enough from my end. Plus “Things” is up…gotta go read what Michael’s thinking…
Thanks MLD, added those to my wish list on Amazon and will probably pick them up when I have more money. Which translates into after the Xmas season is done.
“…I do “see” a World Central Bank and new World Reserve Currency to transact Global Trade though. That’s an extremely high probability after another major global economic debt crisis.”
I too see that in the world – however, I don’t see it in scripture. Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Tim LaHaye and Chuck Smith have repeated it so often, people think it’s there.
It’s like Hallmark keeps saying “the 3 wise men” – but the scripture nowhere says 3 wise men, and if Jay Leno did a Jay Walk – probably 100 out of 100 would say 3 wise men.
It’s all yours today.
I have been lost.
I made young girls believe that they would be defined by whom they married, and how they supported him. I taught young boys that their life would be fulfilled by finding a way to serve the Lord above all else, and die doing it. I taught young people that the only way to live was to forsake life. I taught them to believe in a gospel that forced them to work, and work harder, to test themselves to see if even then they were working hard enough.
I believed that salvation was found through stripping yourself of your identity and taking on an identity that has to be fully immersed in perpetual spirituality, praying more than enough, reading the Bible more than enough, being in the fellowship of those who do the same. I believed that if you did not do these things, you would be lost. You would turn gay. You would be an alcoholic or drug addict. You would end up pregnant and manless. Of course following all of this, you would burn in hell.
I taught people that they could earn their salvation. I taught people that they could loose it.
What is worse? For me, at least, it is the reality that I taught these things, and I did not even know I was teaching it.
The only thing I fed myself for years was sermons. Thousands of them. Most of these sermons came from the same tribe. I became an isolationist. I believed, without even realizing it, that I had something figured out that nobody else did.
When I started to learn that I didn’t really have anything figured out, I questioned. For that, I was shunned. The problem with being shunned is that all you have known to supposedly be true of loving the Body of Christ is a lie.
The church of today does not believe in unity of the faith. It is a fiction. The church of today churns out people who have just enough information to reject Christ, and violently explain why. The church of today creates people who have to point out the evils of the church. Some do it satirically, some do it boldly, some do it eloquently.
The church of today hates people. The church of today embraces only those who can align themselves with systems built by men. The church today eats it’s own.
I hate the church.
I want to see the real Church. I fear it is as lost as I am.
Have a nice day.
Thank you for being honest Reuben.
I feel like I should say more, because I’ve been at a similar place, not only pastors get there, but I think it’s a journey each person finds their own way through.
Reuben, London,
You are each beloved by Jesus.
You, each, unfold the love within you and share it with others, in the simplest ways, in the most unsensational, quiet, unrecordable, unpublishable, just as He wants it to be.
When it becomes visible, then, that’s nice too, but “visible only to God”, that’s how it continues, naturally.
Wishing you both unscripted and unplanned moments of joy today.
Music is up for the week. Feel free to drop by.
http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/praise-worship-december-7th-2012/
Good words from G…
Everything Reuben says is true, except one thing … having spent my adult life as a Believer who was shunned by the success and respectability driven (led?) popular mindset of the local churches of the 60s through to the end of the century … the sheep aren’t lost 🙂
yesterday G, gently took me to task for my observation on the prophesied day that God would be revealed (His true glory and holiness) for all of unsaved mankind to see – i used the graphic expletive “holy sh*t” to define what their reaction would be (not the Church’s reaction) because God is a consuming fire
God is the perfect gentleman with impeccable manners, which Christ modeled for us, but He (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is ultimately holy and i think i see that hell is necessary because of holiness – hell has nothing to do with hate – His command to love our fellow man is partly predicated on the fact of hell – however one approaches God to be reconciled and edified in His truth, His holiness should always, always humble us – hold onto the awe
but Reuben, as some say around here, “you rock” and #1 was great IMHO
” i used the graphic expletive “holy sh*t” to define what their reaction would be…”
You are actually 100% correct – watch this 1 min video – you must watch all the way, even past the credits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0_Drk-nCrI&list=UU2-3Cf7Hw10b3NW05p2Z7IA&index=9
No one does satire like Lutheran Satire. 🙂
Much to ponder there Reuben. Been there myself to some degree (although not nearly as legalistic) and find myself returning there again for the third time. I learned a long time ago that ministry is not the pinnacle of Christian existance. Those in ministry who have bought into that lie are evident by their lack of ethics and care for people. I don’t care how good they teach or how large their church is. If they don’t care for people and lack ethical behaivor, their work is in vain. They add little to the Kingdom of God and much to their own little cottage industry.
If I were not a christian today, what I see of the church would convert me to being a full on atheist or agnostic. While I see a dismal future, it is still not without hope. I think will eventually change, bu it will take time. I think the home church movement is on to something.
BTW, unity is a pipe dream unless it is within biblical constructs. I have a whole list of people who I can suggest that you invite to your local church; your reaction will tell you something about your own quest for unity. Unity is like religious freedom that this country was supposedly founded upon. The pilgrims wanted religious freedom alright, but only for themselves, not for any one else. Same with unity. We all want to define the parameters and God help the poor soul who goes against that flow.
em shared, “God is the perfect gentleman with impeccable manners, which Christ modeled for us, but He (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is ultimately holy and i think i see that hell is necessary because of holiness – hell has nothing to do with hate – His command to love our fellow man is partly predicated on the fact of hell – however one approaches God to be reconciled and edified in His truth, His holiness should always, always humble us – hold onto the awe”
em, We attended church for a time where the pastor believed in annihilation of the lost. I don’t recall him ever spelling that out from the pulpit but one of his messages I caught that he might be leaning that way so after service I asked him about it.
He said that he indeed believed in the annihilation of the lost and it was something that he wrestled with deeply. I believe there are scholars who lean the same way.
I have never attended a church where the pastor held to universalism where at some point, all will arrive in Heaven to spend eternity.
The pastor who holds to annihilation preaches that one must be born again in a very orthodox manner although some would quibble as to what orthodox is. He is very concerned in obseving the baptism of the believer and of the Lord’s Supper.
I’m not sure what the universalist’s teach regarding salvation. I don’t know if they teach you must be born again and that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
It seems both these camps speak much about the goodness and love of God towards the human race.
I wonder though if God’s character is compromised in some manner because the idea of an all knowing, loving, perfect God would be capable of sending sould to an eternity away from him. How that separation would be described is a place of torment or of a place you’re stuck in for eternity knowing you rejected the truth in your earthly life.
The other day we had the Ray Comfort video to talk about. His methods may drive some to drink but he’s hell bent on keeping people out of hell and I admire a person with that concern for others.
If annihilation or universalism is true then I’m not sure what the point of anything is. Many lost people would want nothing better than to simply cease to exist after they die. No answering for sins, no reason not to sin. If universalism is true why even share the gospel with anyone? To share in Christ’s benefits in this evaporating life while holding to any of a number of false beliefs including satanism?
In our day the gospel is a stench to many due to various life experiences. If you have the gall to speak of eternal judgment it seems many under the christian umbrella have issues with you.
I am not one licking my chops to see anyone cast into outer darkness for eternity. I thought love for people is why we share with them so they could escape hell. I believe we can do that in non cartoonish ways.
People can share and be sincere in their beliefs of annihilation or universalism. I fear for those who take their last breath believing the same. Sorry for the length.
I have a question that I would like to ask the Pastors here if it is not inappropriate to do so. I personally have never heard it addressed specifically before, but what will be the purpose of the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ on Earth? Who will He be reining and why?
Sorry to display my ignorance but I really want to understand.
P.A.L.,
I am not a pastor, but there is no 1,000 year earthly reign. If you read Rev 20 properly, the scene described, the thrones and the souls of the beheaded etc are heavenly descriptions – not earthly.
Jesus is reigning in his kingdom today.
erunner, I believe that hell is a subject that very plainly comes up in Scripture – it isn’t an anomalous, theological conjecture – that said, as to what hell is **exactly,** what fuels it or who will end up there? i don’t know and wouldn’t guess – i just know that it is and we do a disservice to our fellow man if we deny it … personally, i’d like to think that few are candidates for it and that it consumes totally to nothingness those who do go there … but i can’t count on that being the case … all i really can say for sure is, i believe God is and is complete – perfect – holy – and grace is such a beautiful attribute of His, not to be trifled with … as is hell
“I am not one licking my chops to see anyone cast into outer darkness for eternity. I thought love for people is why we share with them so they could escape hell.” i think i made that point back up there also – if not, i sure meant to 😯
MLD,
Thank you, I will re-read deeper and use several versions of the Bible. Do you think that there will be any people on Earth at this time?
P.A.L. i’m not a pastor either, but the pastors i respect teach differently than MLD’s does
i’ll let someone else teach the Scripture, but as to the ‘why’ of it, here’s what i suspect the point of it is the natural world will be at peace and man will see clearly what our King and His kingdom are all about:
upon Christ’s return to earth – He will set up His reign as an absolute monarch. **Satan is bound and unable to confuse and cloud men’s minds**. The natural world is at peace (lots of conjecture as to what the Saints who return with Him – no longer mortals – are expected to do … probably teaching and administration, maybe street-sweeping, i don’t know). We will see clearly what our King and His kingdom are all about for 1,000 years – literal years? i don’t know – Satan is eventually released and many, now without any excuse, with eyes wide open, still chose to follow him ( Revelation 20:7-10 ) and THEN, among other things, the cataclysmic destruction of the planet comes …
that’s the ‘why’ that i hang my hat on … dunno
P.A.L.
As an amillenialist I believe we are in that 1,000 year period now (the time between the 2 advents of Christ.)
The 1,000 yrs is figurative for a very long period of time just as the 10 days in Rev 2: 10 represent a very short period of time.
“10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation.”
I don’t think that anyone thinks that a literal 10 days in the clink is much tribulation.
To counter Em a bit, if you read Jesus’ description of the end (and I do think his view should at least be considered) in Matt 25:31-46 you will see only his return and then judgement. He makes no mention of a 1,000 stop over.
Gotta run for a bit and get the ol’ Christmas tree. 🙂
Em,
Not intended to “take you to task”, I was just sharing what makes me say “holy &@$%” and drop my jaw, awestruck. It’s love and the beauty of the earth.
“Hell is not necessary because of holiness” anymore than “murder and rape are needed because of love and romance”! That’s just a horribly false dichotomy/contrast from a scandalous and primitive logic that has out used its momentary usefulness.
Hell was done at the cross, the ransom paid, applied to all humanity.
The Good News is just to go tell the world.
MLD said, ‘As an amillenialist I believe we are in that 1,000 year period now (the time between the 2 advents of Christ.)
The 1,000 yrs is figurative for a very long period of time just as the 10 days in Rev 2: 10 represent a very short period of time.”
Yet, in Genesis you take the “6 days” as literal…
contradiction alert/contradiction alert! 😉
G, that vision of “things” sounds so good…unfortunately it sounds too good to be true, but I sincerely hope you are right. I really do. I dont’ wish hell/eternal separation from God/torment on anyone, at least not for all eternity
MLD’s #16 i think we are in agreement on the fact of it – just not what comes before …
G, i think you may see holiness as goodness? i see goodness as a component of holiness – either way, we are so dependent on His grace and mercy
G, “I was just sharing what makes me say “holy &@$%” and drop my jaw, awestruck. It’s love and the beauty of the earth.” you and King David will have some singing to do 🙂
Alex,
I’ve returned to a cornerstone of my early theology, that the sacrifice and merits of Christ must necessarily apply to humanity, and that we’re simply to bring that to all who will hear and bid them to be reconciled to The Father and experience redemption. No sinners prayer necessary, just the simple response to God.
Em,
Nope, not confusing anything. Holiness is not the Ying to require a hell be the Yang.
Em,
I’ll probably be jazzin’ ’round 😉
G, “Nope, not confusing anything. Holiness is not the Ying to require a hell be the Yang.” good point as i don’t conceptualize/understand/promote it as a Yin and Yang and i did not say you were “confusing” BTW 🙂
the **fact** of holiness does not necessitate a complementary hell – however, as much as we might wish it to be so, i suspect that rebellion against God doesn’t just fade out at some point and that is the why of hell … not so much a punishment, either, rather a containment of a destructive, prideful (not to be confused with self-respect), foul, ant-god mindset, perhaps? dunno … but nuff said for today (from me at any rate)
G, well, you’ll have to have a beat that can be danced to, i think, but that’s another thing that God knows and i don’t lol
“contradiction alert/contradiction alert! ”
Alex you surprise me. For a guy who is always talking about logic. fallacies and contradictions you can’t even describe a contradiction. For my statement to have been a contradictions I would have had to say;
“The 1,000 yrs is figurative for a very long period of time…”
and then the contradiction would be to follow up and say;
“The 1,000 yrs is NOT figurative for a very long period of time”
But Alex did catch me in one of my quirks – so for open disclosure, I will admit that I do read the narrative passages differently than I do the apocalyptic passages. I read the poetic passages differently than I read the historical accounts.
Alex apparently makes no distinction.
Alex, apocalyptic literature really is a genre with its own idioms and ways of being read. One of the most frustrating things about American Protestantism of the broadly evangelical sort is a failure to appreciate the ways in which literary genre and even intertestamental literature presents ideas and interpretive approaches that often get ignored by people who want to “just preach the Bible”. MLD isn’t the only amillenialist here at Phoenix Preacher and the idea that pointing out that one text presents six days as six days and another presents 1000 years as a figurative number isn’t a contradiction if we have our basics on literary forms in hand.
I have thoughts about what Reuben posted but I may have to come back and comment later. I’ve been trying to catch up with having a social life that doesn’t involve pixels this holiday season.
Wenatchee, yes of course (in terms of my knowledge of the man-made distinctions and interpretive models).
Maybe MLD can help me out here: Is the following Apocalyptic or Narrative?
Qualifications of Pastors/Elders
Church Discipline
“Tell it unto the church”
“Rebuke them publicly” command to fellow pastors/elders applicable to an “Association” IMO
“Who am I to judge those outside the church, I am to judge those inside the church”
“Expose the deeds of darkness”
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord” (Chuck Smith)
The sad fact is the church is full of Interpretive Models to filter what was approved my men of what consists of Biblical Cannon. In protestantism we leave some stuff out of the Cannon. With the stuff we kept, we have 30,000+ denominations that see things a bit differently or vastly differently on a ton of issues. It is what it is.
CC is the king of “pick and choose” and the Amoeba Bible.
MLD, from a Philosophical Logic perspective: the definition of “contradiction” is: “logical incongruity”
I “simply” pointed out the nature of Literalism and the subjective interpretation and varying Interpretive Models that are applied to what is defined as Biblical Cannon.
In one part of the Cannon: Genesis: the Time Demarcations are often taken as quite literal, as in a “literal” 6 days, six 24 hour days.
In another part of the Cannon: Revelation: some within the Tent apply a different Interpretive Model and assert the Time Demarcations are Metaphorical and not literal.
My assertion that your use of different Interpretive Models to arrive at two different Conclusions regarding Time Demarcations in your Biblical Cannon….is pointing out “logical incongruity”…or “contradiction”.
The very Strict Literalists are more Consistent and less Contradictory from a Logic/Reason perspective, especially when it comes to Time Demarcations.
“6 days” means “6 days”, “Body and Blood” means “Body and Blood” (as MLD says is literal), “Whosoever and All” means “Whosoever and All” and “1,000 years” means “1,000 years”
Again, as I’ve asserted early on with the whole “Theo Logos” argument with Rolph and my assertion that the bible is Irrational and Illogical…to which many freaked out…
I have tried to cram the biblical cannon into a Philosophically Logical / Logic/Reason Box…for a very long time.
It simply refuses to cooperate.
…and yet again, it’s why I have a TON of opinions regarding the Bible, but very few Hills I’ll die on.
I think there are some Core Facts that have to be true…or the Faith is invalid.
I think there are some pretty non-spin-able commands like Qualifications of Pastors, etc and stuff like dealing with sin in the Camp etc.
But, making the Bible a Science Book and a Horoscope….dunno.
Oh Reuben, I really feel for your pain, and you will be in my prayers. It is a hard place to be in for sure; you are not alone in that place. I think that many who read here have been/are in this place, yet I would say as a fellow sufferer not to lose faith in His goodness.
Forget’ the church’ for awhile, and see the individual, for there are real people who make the church a better and forgiving place–our very own Michael is such a one. You are also so very hard on yourself, it is painful to read. You have always impressed me as a serious young man who takes his walk very seriously, which only points to your growth now–and I think this has probably been your main mind set even in the midst of your former life. Leave a little room for grace for yourself and know that I believe whatever wrong things you felt you taught, God is able to take care of those you felt you misguided. Not to sound too simplistic, but you are too hard on yourself. The church is made up of all of us who read here and we care for you and want to encourage you to continue to believe in His goodness–it led you here. God bless you and your wife and family Reuben..
Alex,
Obviously you have never heard the axiom “If you are in a hole, stop digging.” You should just acknowledge that in your #18 you described a contradiction incorrectly and leave it at that.
Back to Rev 20 – so is there anything else you take literally in that passage. Is the key to the bottomless pit[ or the great chain – are they a literal key and chain? Did the angel “seize a literal dragon?
Are there going to be literal nations registered at the UN as Gog and Magog?
Sounds silly to me.
To the Genesis passage, I neither affirm nor deny the 6 day creation. I said the other day when we were on the topic, and I was very clear – what I do affirm is that there was a beginning, that God created and that the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity – not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.
MLD, I’ve learned not to give your take much credence and to trust my training in the area of Logic/Reason. Your track record from what you’ve demonstrated in terms of Critical Thinking, over the years on here, is pretty poor.
But that’s not the issue, the macro point is that:
It all boils down to Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority.
Scriptural is not logical.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t true or doesn’t contain truth.
It means we lack the ability to understand exactly what God intends or intended and that is exampled by the 30,000+ differing opinions underneath the “Christian” umbrella
Much boils down to Conscience, personal Conviction…loosely based on Scripture and a personal conviction of what Scripture (the Scripture we claim as official “Cannon”) is “really, truly” saying.
what amuses me, is you don’t even understand or know when you are being illogical…yet you front as if you understand the tennets and the discipline
since it’s open here and i need to vent, i want to make a nomination for the most asinine, insulting commercial of the season: people going gaga over gifting an energy booster? (that might even be dangerous for some folks)
there ! i feel much better 🙂 🙂
Oh boy, here you go again:
MLD said, “I said the other day when we were on the topic, and I was very clear – what I do affirm is that there was a beginning, that God created and that the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity – not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.”
Where does it say that in Scripture explicitly? You interpret the passage to say what you assert above, but it doesn’t necessarily say that.
In Revelation you assume Metaphor, Allegory etc.
Yet in Genesis you seem to take a quasi-literal approach, yet you hedge on the “6 days” and then wax very literal on the description of “God created man” as somehow expressing explicitly that it means it was not as the result of a God-caused Evolutionary Process.
Genesis 2: 7″the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
MLD said, “not created in some evolutionary manner from another creature.”
Are you familiar with micro-organisms? Are you familiar with micro-biology? Are you familiar with the fact that micro-organisms are found in dirt? Are you familiar with the role that microorganisms play in the Evolutionary Process?
Are you familiar with the meaning to “to become” or “come to pass”…as a process?
The hebrew word used for “became” includes those meanings
I’m not asserting it proves or disproves Genesis as completely literal or completely allegorical…but it further illustrates, IMO, that we may not really know what God was saying through the text we assume is inspired there…other than God is Creator and every known thing in our existence and in all of existence is in a Chain of Causation and in a Causal relationship stemming from the Singularity or God.
Alex,
All you have done at best is show that man went directly from dirt, including all of it’s contents, to fully complete man, which is my position – and that is not what Darwinian evolution decrees.
What you are trying to do, in a very poor manner, is regurgitate Neil deGrasse Tyson – that we are all made of star dust. I used to go on blogs about him and tease that all his sheep like followers believe we are star man. 🙂
MLD said, “All you have done at best is show that man went directly from dirt, including all of it’s contents, to fully complete man, which is my position – and that is not what Darwinian evolution decrees.”
What I did was show that you stated “the scriptures are very clear that God made man as a complete and separate entity”
which seems to say that you believe God waved a magic wand and created man from nothing…when in fact the Scripture says He made man from “dirt” which includes micro-organisms…and dirt is a substance…it is a “separate entity”…therefore your statement is factually incorrect if you are appealing to a literal interpretation of Scripture.
My further point was that we really don’t know. God could very well have imparted a very general truth w/o explaining in detail the “process” of “becoming” or “come to pass”. It is generally accepted as fact in the current Scientific Consensus that man’s “becoming” began with organic micro-organisms.
Much like the Genesis account takes broad leaps in other areas and doesn’t lay out a step-by-step-by-step Cause/Effect scientific explanation of each piece of Creation…but rather summarizes quite generally and quite succinctly what was most likely very complex and very time consuming (which we observe today in areas like Geology, Physics, Astrophysics, biology etc). Genesis appears to be an inspired text that was intended to communicate some very basic truths about Existence/Origins to a primitive man in the form of the Ancient Hebrews.
To make it a Science Book and to make Revelation a Horoscope…I just don’t think either Position is particularly strong…especially with regards to Genesis as there is much we observe today that contradicts assumptions and interpretations forced upon the text by some in Christian-land.
I’m not familiar with Tyson…unless it’s Mike Tyson. I was a big Mike Tyson fan in the early days before he raped women and got face tattoos.
I imagine if God wanted to impart the truth of origins to us today…He’d reveal it through the knowledge He imparts to us via Scientific observation.
“Knowledge will increase”
There comes a point where the truth we observe vs. the truth we think we see in Scripture regarding non-essentials like origins…one must be open to the possibility one has interpreted the ancient text incorrectly or read it as a literal science book incorrectly…when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.
Another parallel:
Stoning people to death.
Slavery.
Concubines and Polygamy.
Other instances where our “truth” evolved from Ancient times…to today…as we increased in knowledge (which I believe that increase in knowledge is part of God’s providence).
Stunned that you have not heard of Tyson. Anyone who has ever opened a book on astrophysics has heard of Tyson – I guess that Master’s College education only goes so far. 🙂
But let’s take a step back on the creation of Adam – which I do not toss away as some non essential like you. If there was no literal Adam, created special by God actually breathing life into him, if there is no literal Adam who was literally the first man who along with Eve committed the first sin, then the joke is on Jesus – and I do not consider that a non essential
“There comes a point where the truth we observe vs. the truth we think we see in Scripture regarding non-essentials like origins… when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.”
I taught today of the Paradox of Christmas. Next week on the Virgin Birth. Now you have scrambled my preparation, since as you mentioned I have to take in to consideration, NOT what the scriptures say, but I have to compare the virgin birth with … how did you say it? “when it comes into conflict with extremely verifiable knowledge from testable, repeatable observations we make today.”
Well, 100% of the verifiable, tested, repeated observations tell me the Bible lied about the virgin birth.
Alex,
“Stoning people to death. – Slavery – Concubines and Polygamy.”
Are you saying that God ordered these or allowed these as 100% OK back in those days because the people were too stupid and unevolved to really understand God?
God allows what you call evil because he didn’t know what else to do?
well, my commercial break didn’t …
why would any child of God attempt to judge the Bible against the ever evolving discoveries of science? when it’s all over every scientist, child of God or not, will be red faced and grabbing their nappies, not to mention those of us for whom either discipline has only been dabbled in …
MLD, didn’t mean to give you that impression re: Tyson. I know who the dude is, I’m just not familiar enough with his work to have an informed opinion. He is a favorite of some of my Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic friends.
MLD said, ““Stoning people to death. – Slavery – Concubines and Polygamy.”
Are you saying that God ordered these or allowed these as 100% OK back in those days because the people were too stupid and unevolved to really understand God?
God allows what you call evil because he didn’t know what else to do?”
Are you saying Stoning people to death, Slavery and Concubines/Polygamy at one time were righteous and now aren’t?
What changed? God…or man’s understanding?
MLD said, “But let’s take a step back on the creation of Adam – which I do not toss away as some non essential like you. If there was no literal Adam, created special by God actually breathing life into him, if there is no literal Adam who was literally the first man who along with Eve committed the first sin, then the joke is on Jesus – and I do not consider that a non essential”
I think there was a literal Adam…I just think he was probably the first “man” within the Chosen blood line of Jesus…who received his humanness and “knowledge of good and evil”…his intellect/conscience/soul/mind/spirit…what makes us fully “human”.
Who did Cain and Abel breed with, btw? Eve? Their sisters?
Genesis 4:16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. 17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.
Here’s my Theory: The YEC Crowd has the Earth as 6,000 years old…yet we have fossil records and evidence of prehistoric man, etc. The Earth and Universe seem to be much older than 6,000 years (insert tons of evidence here).
What is fascinating is that the “earliest known human civilization” and “earliest recorded history” arises around 6,000 years ago:
“Earliest known civilization arises in Sumer (4500–4000 B.C.). Earliest recorded date in Egyptian calendar (4241 B.C.). First year of Jewish calendar (3760 B.C.)”
Earth: Old.
Universe: Old.
Evolved Man with the “knowledge of good and evil” and conscience/mind/eternal soul: Young.
I think it is very possible Adam was a literal man, the “first” evolved human in the line of Jesus…the Hebrews/Semites.
It is also possible that other “men” evolved at a similar time…and that when Cain was banished to “the Land of Nod, east of Eden”…he married a woman that was not his sister.
Just a theory.
It seems it is possible that the Genesis Account and OT in general is held in tension/in the context of the “world” being the region of the Hebrews and the Blood line of Jesus and God’s “Chosen”…as opposed to the rest of the planet and the rest of the people’s that were most likely there during the time of Adam and Cain.
I think it is “possible” that Adam is an Archetype as well as a literal person who existed on this planet, in this existence.
And what is the problem if Cain and Abel married their sisters?- I don’t see the issue – and I think you are falsely making one.
Also, are you saying that the people of NOD were some kind of human mutants who did not know “good from evil” – that the line from Cain was something similar to half zombies?
MLD said, “And what is the problem if Cain and Abel married their sisters?- I don’t see the issue – and I think you are falsely making one.”
I think that another people living in the Land of Nod, east of Eden…who would have had to be brothers and sisters of Cain…is highly unlikely in that Cain was “cast out”. Why would it have been such a big punishment to cast Cain out…if his bros and sisses went there already on their own…and then he marries a sister?
And the text seems to imply there is some sort of group there with some sort of society already developed.
Well, for all you know, and the text does not say, this could be 100 yrs after Cain and Abel were born – so there could already be 5 or 6 generations of people from Adam & Eve living in the Nodland. – 1,000s of people
The other half of my extended family lives in New York. I would consider it a punishment if someone made me go live there with them.
Cain built a “city” according to the Genesis account. If Cain was building a “city”…who the heck was living in the Caves and making all the cave paintings and cave drawings that have been discovered all over the world?
Why did God have to make a special wife for Adam – why didn’t he just import one of the “pre-historic ladies?.
MLD said, ‘Also, are you saying that the people of NOD were some kind of human mutants”
No, IMO it’s entirely possible they were an evolved group of humans who were not in Adam’s family, not in Adam’s lineage, until Cain was banished and sent there.
So, was there sin in the world BEFORE Adam & Eve from these other people?
“Cain built a “city” according to the Genesis account.”
Perhaps it was a city of caves. What are you expecting, the Trump Towers in Nodland?
MLD said, “Why did God have to make a special wife for Adam – why didn’t he just import one of the “pre-historic ladies?”
Good question. I’ve wrestled with that issue a lot in the context of Antony Flew’s sticking point with regards to Evolution being initial reproduction.
If my theory is correct (which it’s just a theory, but probably as tenable as a talking garden snake, etc) is that the description of Eve being created from Adam’s rib is story-telling device same manner as Adam from dust. It’s an extremely simple way of explaining a very complex process to impart a truth. Eve was possibly both Archetype and literal human.
Eve was representative of womankind and the truth imparted was that God created her…and that Eve was the literal person who, like Adam, attained “the knowledge of good and evil” along with Adam, as his contemporary and his wife…and so began the line of Jesus and the Hebrew/Semites.
MLD said, ‘So, was there sin in the world BEFORE Adam & Eve from these other people?”
Well, there’s the “sin entered the world through one man”…but in the context of the Genesis account and the Torah etc being specific to the Hebrew/Semites…vs. the other Groups of ancient man, etc…it’s very possible that “sin” entered the “world” of the Hebrews through Adam…while others attained the “knowledge of good and evil” as they interacted with Fallen Angels described in the Book of Enoch: The Watchers…and discussed a bit in the Genesis account.
It appears that the Fallen Angels fell to earth/this existence/this dimension, prior to humans attaining their soul/humanity.
All Ancient Civilizations have accounts of “gods” and Serpents, etc…and seem to have quite a bit of knowledge they attained very rapidly. Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians, etc etc…very interesting studies. Ancient Chinese civilization etc.
Ancient Sumerians and many other ancient cultures describe “serpent” beings of intelligence, btw.
…”talking snake”?
my 9:10pm: also consider the context of “Chosen” people when considering that the Hebrew “world” was not necessarily the entire existence and other groups of people, and vise versa.
MLD said, “Perhaps it was a city of caves”
LOL, you don’t have to build a cave
What does the knowledge of good and evil have to do with sin? Adam and Eve sinned BEFORE the had the knowledge of Good and Evil – they acquired the knowledge through sin.
I need to go to bed – good discussion, but I’ll bet you are the guy who has the whole box set series of The X Files on DVD. 🙂
MLD said, “What does the knowledge of good and evil have to do with sin? Adam and Eve sinned BEFORE the had the knowledge of Good and Evil – they acquired the knowledge through sin.”
Ah, but how would they know it was “sin” if they didn’t have the “knowledge” of what was “good and evil” yet?
Yes, fun discussion. Like the old days before our relationship went sideways. Appreciate the good spirited nature in this one. I hope to keep it that way on my end.
yes, I loved the X-files 🙂
Have a good evening. I’m sure folks have had enough for one night.
Really enjoyed a quick read of your discussion, spirited, fun loving.
Thanks guys.
Hey Reuben,
You’re not forgotten in all the noise.
Just lettin ya know.
Alex,
Here is something for you to consider. Look at the whole back story that you had to create and insert into the story. A separate set of humans, from a different line than Adam, perhaps centuries olde who grew to a greater population than the Eden area – just so you can accommodate evolution into the story.
I think Mormonism started the same way – different back story, but similar purpose – to make man closer to God… or at least to bring God down a peg or two.
Reuben, you are loved here! Just sayin’.
After reading all that, I must say MLD had the best point for last. There does seem to be a lot of extra-biblical theorizing and supposition on the part of people who try to explain how evolution could fit into the bible. Never has been convincing.
At one time, I was interested in looking into views that challenged science for an old-earth creation. All it took to convince me that science ain’t all that was to see a simple description of the inaccuracies of radioisotope dating, if the age sample of lava rock samples from Mt. St. Helens are dated in the millions of years then the science is not accurate. Not saying I have all the knowledge on this, but I have heard it explained and grasped the process and it was not convincing. I will stick with my “foolish” knowledge. 🙂
I remember hearing that the stalagtites growing beneath Lincoln’s tomb (less than 200 years old) were radioisotoped in a blind test and they came up with them being in the age of millions of years. It was only something I heard Chuck Missler talk about back in the 70’s and I would love to see proof of the statement. It would be an excellent talking point when discussing geology ages and old earth, young earth.
MLD said, “Alex,
Here is something for you to consider. Look at the whole back story that you had to create and insert into the story. A separate set of humans, from a different line than Adam, perhaps centuries olde who grew to a greater population than the Eden area – just so you can accommodate evolution into the story.
I think Mormonism started the same way – different back story, but similar purpose – to make man closer to God… or at least to bring God down a peg or two.”
You just described about every Eschatological Theory, and about every of the 30,000+ flavors/denominations of Christianity out there to one degree or another, regarding one particular issue or another.
Even Lutheranism does same/similar. It is what it is.
Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority…and a lot of our “truth” is filling in the gaps and jumping to conclusions.
None take a strict “literal” “simple” approach to the text. Everyone filters it through “proper hermeneutic” etc which is an Interpretive Model…everyone explains away verses that don’t fit their Box, etc.
The Amil Position you proclaim discounts all of the “Apocalyptic” text of Revelation and assigns to it “1,000 years doesn’t mean 1,000 years” and that “reign” doesn’t mean reign in the sense of literal, but rather metaphorical/spiritual.
Lots of theorizing against the explicit words of the text. It’s the nature of Christianity.
Regarding the “Mormon” comment….there are many in the Christian Dispensational Camp that believe in “Progressive Revelation”…to varying degrees.
I dunno about any of it. I know the Core Truths and believe them…after that, as I’ve stated many times…”we see through a glass darkly”…and there is much to speculate about and theorize about…and as 30,000+ denominations and mainlines illustrate: No one really knows for sure what is “Absolutely Correct!” theology etc. We’re all guessing to one degree or another and relying on Conscience, Conviction and the Group we think is more correct in their Interpretation.
Has anybody ever seen a list of the “30,000” denominations. I realize that is an atheist talking point, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of being accurate.
Rueben always gets some of the best threads going here (even off topic) 🙂
when our children were young we were very active in a young earth/creationist society (founded by a Lutheran pastor out of Boise BTW) … today i’d say that my reaction to the whole debate is, “oh shut up – if you’re not a scientist – and a very good one in a discipline that addresses the age of the earth in some way (i think anthropologists are strange) – you’re going to go where your heart leads you anyway … the whole debate is motivated by those who want to prove there is or isn’t a God and neither side can do that as they are about 2,000 years too late … just sayin
and amen to #s 77 & 79 … i am old and i can’t think of one single teacher/pastor that i ever heard that didn’t change & retract portions of their teaching over time …
RE: carbon dating. I’ve argued that same position, but the issue of “Starlight” is the really tough one.
Even “Answers in Genesis” acknowledges the sound observational science behind how astronomers etc determine that Stars, Galaxies etc are very very far away.
Mathematical models prove that based off the speed of light, the light we see today is very very old, the stuff happened a long long time ago, much longer than 6,000 years…which makes the Universe much older than the planet Earth.
From Answers in Genesis: “The distant starlight question has caused some people to question cosmic distances. “Do we really know that galaxies are so far away? Perhaps they are much closer, so the light really doesn’t travel very far.”1 However, the techniques that astronomers use to measure cosmic distances are generally logical and scientifically sound. They do not rely on evolutionary assumptions about the past. Moreover, they are a part of observational science (as opposed to historical/origins science); they are testable and repeatable in the present. You could repeat the experiment to determine the distance to a star or galaxy, and you would get approximately the same answer. So we have good reason to believe that space really is very big. In fact, the amazing size of the universe brings glory to God”
AIG gives up the fact that the distances are far…they then try to question whether or not light travels at the same speed all the time…which is quite a stretch.
The Starlight issue is a huge problem for Young Earth/Young Universe. It just is.
RE: “30,000 + denominations”
That’s a Christian Sources number:
“According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations.
Center for the Study of Global Christianity (2011)”
Christianity Today reported the numbers above….
Fact is, there are a TON of differences in interpretation of Scripture, in even defining what is Canon and what isn’t and in Interpretations etc of the bible.
It is what it is.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2218
A word from James White on the 33,000 denomination myth.
@87 – of course there are differences in interpretation of Scripture. Have you ever taken a literature course and discussed Shakespeare? People have differing points of view…on everything. I can’t imagine why that is an issue for anybody.
Josh said, “People have differing points of view…on everything. I can’t imagine why that is an issue for anybody.”
Seems to be an issue for MLD.
I never did buy or believe the “20,000 denoms” line. Xenia used to use it a lot. I didn’t realize it was a favorite among RCs, especially their fevered converts from horrid Protestantism.
Thanks, Josh, for the link.
Alex, “Differing points of view”…as I recall MLD stated in his original post on this thread that he was an “amillennialist”, which, to a christian, states that he holds a differing view among other points of view. To me, reading this thread, it seems that you took issue with his millennialism originally, not the other way around.
James White makes a lot of noise in that article about “33,000 denominations myth” but, pretty much the only success he has is in questioning the specific number…while in fact seemingly confirming that there are a large number of differences in Christianity…whether it be 33,000 or 9,000.
White’s “conclusion” is pretty vague…he doesn’t refute or prove that there aren’t a ton of denominations and differences of opinion….rather he questions whether the number is “33,000” or just maybe 9,000 or so. Even if it was 1,000….that’s a lot of divergence of opinion…and all claiming the Holy Spirit and all appealing to the same bible as authoritative.
Any which way you slice it, it illustrates the Subjective nature of Scripture interpretation and why I hang my hat on very few core essentials…and hang my hat on issues that are very straightforward like Pastoral Qualifications, etc.
The Theological/doctrinal nuance…I have a ton of theories. The Eschatological stuff: tons of theories and it’s fun to speculate.
Origins: same, tons of theories, fun to speculate, but who really knows absolutely 100% for sure…and who has to know to be officially “saved”
Reuben – you are not alone. Been through that far country myself.
Josh – Below is an example of a study done in 2010 re: number of non-demon/independent churches in just the US. This counts all the “pop up” churches, like storefront, sharing other spaces which may have less than 50 folks. Probably doesn’t factor in house churches, others that don’t list in church directories or advertise in local papers etc.
http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/cong/nondenominational-churches-national-profile-2010.html
A more recent estimate is 64, 600 separate sects which includes a recognition of more of the ‘preacher with a new vision’ startups. In some states/cities especially with more pentecostal influences the numbers are higher. Maybe because of believing God still revelating is accepted – ie. “the Lord told me” this is the new or better way
Then you have all the multitude of schizms under mainline umbrella labels like ” baptist”.
So the number of “denominations” may be lower, but the number of different independent, non-affiliated groups is quite high. Because of the constant flux of the division and new vision phenomenon including the fact that some startups don’t last long, it is impossible to get an exact count.
Even if it were only 5, 10 thousand, the point Alex was making regarding core truths and interpretation still stands. When you factor in the multitude of ways individuals personalize, understand and practice what they are taught within their faith community, the lack of consensus and consistency on even the very basic tenets of faith is mind boggling.
Derek, actually, i pointed out a “contradiction” in MLD’s logic, to which he replied that it wasn’t a contradiction, to which i replied that it was from a Philosophical Logic perspective and then MLD went on to illustrate how subjective his interpretive Filter is (though trying to argue that he takes stuff the “correct” way from Scripture) by illustrating the “different’ ways he reads and interprets different parts of the bible etc.
The convo evolved from there. Pardon the double entendre 🙂
Derek, MLD seems to believe that “his” way of interpreting Scripture is better and “correct” while progressive revelation or theorizing about origins that differs with his take is invalid, etc…
which is why I challenged “Differing points of view”
I’m in the Camp that says “Dunno” on many issues.
MLD is in the Camp that says, “I’ve got it all figured out, my way is correct”
That’s the Context of that statement you question above.
I think to many I proved the point well re: the fact that MLD doesn’t really know for sure much of anything…neither do I, neither do you…but we tend to think “our” “correct” take on everything in Scripture is “the” correct take.
…when in reality, there is a vast divergence of opinion all appealing to the same or similar bible/canon scripture etc.
My dealings with Calvary Chapel especially illustrate this point. The Pick-and-Choose nature of “simply” teaching and doing what the bible says “simply” is very subjective. It depends on what Chuck Smith and the particular CC Franchisee Pastor want to do or not do.
It’s that way in much of Christian-land
@94 – Let’s assume that every Protestant is a denomination unto himself. So, there are millions of protestant denominations. Why does that matter? People read things differently, people understand things differently. People can be guided by the Spirit, but the fact that people are human neccesitates that we all have a flawed understanding. Why is that a problem for anyone?
Oh, I know much of nothing. But, I do know some things for sure. But just an observation here, you, Alex, seem to thrive on uncertainty and aren’t afraid to wield it. The only problem is uncertainty never convinces anyone.
We can’t be 100% certain that our foot will hold up on our next step, but we keep walking.
I did want to respond in some way to Reuben at #1. I feel that pain, and understand exactly where you are. I’ve been there too. Believe it or not, I think it is a healthy place, or at least a place that health can grow from.
Here would be my slight challenge to you. Take the church for what she is, and stop waiting for something else. The church is here, and she is beautiful, even with all of her flaws. Try to look on her with unconditional love, instead of hatred. Your son will never be able to do anything that will exclude him from your love. He’ll make mistakes, he’ll probably hurt you deeply, but you will always love him. I wonder if we should see God’s church in the same light. Yes, she is flawed. Yes, she has hurt many, but she is family. She is us. I’ve found that perspective to be helpful in moving forward.
Derek said, “The only problem is uncertainty never convinces anyone.”
Do you know of anyone who was argued into the Kingdom Derek? Or is it a Supernatural work of God through the Holy Spirit?
I am comfortable in my uncertainty…it is intellectually honest. One of the largest stumbling blocks to my Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic friends is when “Christians” display their ignorance and flaunt it in their faces…when from their perspective, the sound “observation science” as Answers in Genesis calls it, just doesn’t affirm the particular position being forced as undeniable fact by some in Christian-land.
I pray for my unbelieving friends, I try to point out big holes in their so-called 100% correct Belief Systems and poke holes and point out the Philosophical Logic holes in their Gurus arguments and point to areas like Theoretical Physics that assert all sorts of things we cannot “see, test, repeat, verify” etc but are believed by many scientists to be reality and fact like 11 Dimensions, Parallel/Alternate/Bubble universes, dimensions (spiritual dimension perhaps?) that are right there, but we can’t see them, etc.
I’ll never argue one of them into the Kingdom. But, I’ve found it doesn’t help to be intellectually dishonest and not call a spade a spade when there are things through “observation Science” that just don’t add up when contrasted with “some” parts of Christian-land that try to make Genesis a Science Book.
Alex,
“Seems to be an issue for MLD.”
My issue is that every time you come up with some crazy (but popular with your atheist friends) views on a Bible passage is that your excuse is always the same “everyone has crazy ideas, no one knows any truth, and my idea is just as good as anyones.”
MLD, my Atheist friends think my take is crazy as well 😆
none of my stuff is popular with them, as I continue to argue that God “is” and that despite the flustercluck that Christianity is, it doesn’t mean God isn’t real.
Alex,
“MLD is in the Camp that says, “I’ve got it all figured out, my way is correct””
I have never said that (although I may believe it 😉 ) My point has always been that I take the Bible for what it says.
This is my Body – simple enough
Baptism saves – simple enough
In the beginning – simple enough
God created everything through Jesus Christ – simple enough
God created man and woman fully – simple enough
Most hard things I don’t get into. I never try to explain theodicies because God always comes out smaller in the explanation.
MLD, what about “1,000 year reign”…you are Amil, no?
Your uncertainty principle is not very convincing to me at least, it is just more postmodern talk that appeals to people who don’t want to believe anything anyways. And yes, I do believe that people coming to the kingdom is a Holy Spirit thing, but you should have a little idea how your actions are guided by Him to either loosen or harden a heart. I don’t see how it could argue someone into the Kingdom, but I see how it could harden someone against it.
Hey MLD, I have been enjoying that book “God of the Mundane” and I read on some other thread that Lutherans had the handle on work and vocation. Got any resources you can recommend?
Alex,
You know my answer on 1,000 yrs.
Which of these other uses of 1,000 do you take literally
1.) 1 day is like 1,000 yrs to the Lord – is a literal 1,000 yr equation being spoken of here?
2.) The cattle owned by God on 1,000 hills – who owns the cattle on all the other hills?
3.) Deut 7:9 – God keeps his covenant to 1,000 generations – does he break his covenant at yrs 1,001?
1,000 is almost always used to indicate a very long period of time. No man has ever lived 1,000 yrs so it is like the unknown period of time.
But you never answered me about the Literal chain and key in Rev Twenty along with the literal UN member nations Gog and Magog.
Derek said, “but you should have a little idea how your actions are guided by Him to either loosen or harden a heart. I don’t see how it could argue someone into the Kingdom, but I see how it could harden someone against it.”
You seem to be asserting that God is not in control, that ‘we’ are partly responsible for how we “argue” and that our actions will influence whether someone is saved or hardened, no?
This is a very important and very interesting rabbit trail that I’ve wrestle with often…it leads to some very interesting questions
Derek,
Lutheran has recommended this book a couple of times
http://www.amazon.com/God-Work-Redesign-Christian-Vocation/dp/1433524473
I also like to recommend this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Spirituality-Cross-Way-First-Evangelicals/dp/0570053218/ref=la_B001I9RVDQ_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1355162274&sr=1-12
MLD, all you are doing is illustrating how subjective your approach is.
Stuff is literal when you want it to be, allegorical when you want it to be, metaphorical when you want it to be. It’s the nature of applying Interpretative Models to text. We all do it.
When you do it, you claim “your” interpretation is “correct”.
I’m simply saying, I “think” and “probably” and “maybe”…but I dunno.
My hope is in Jesus and salvation. My hope is that God “is” and that He is Creator, and that no matter how it all came about, whether the wave of a magic wand and “poof!” it’s here…or a Quantum, Astronomical, Biological, Physical “process”….I dunno.
With regards to Revelation…dunno as well.
If some dude rises to power and starts making folks put chips in their hands or forehead…I’ll probably change my position 🙂
…I do “see” a World Central Bank and new World Reserve Currency to transact Global Trade though. That’s an extremely high probability after another major global economic debt crisis.
But, I’m happy we can have our long discussions again in an amicable manner and I appreciate the patience of the Community.
That’s enough from my end. Plus “Things” is up…gotta go read what Michael’s thinking…
Thanks MLD, added those to my wish list on Amazon and will probably pick them up when I have more money. Which translates into after the Xmas season is done.
“…I do “see” a World Central Bank and new World Reserve Currency to transact Global Trade though. That’s an extremely high probability after another major global economic debt crisis.”
I too see that in the world – however, I don’t see it in scripture. Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Tim LaHaye and Chuck Smith have repeated it so often, people think it’s there.
It’s like Hallmark keeps saying “the 3 wise men” – but the scripture nowhere says 3 wise men, and if Jay Leno did a Jay Walk – probably 100 out of 100 would say 3 wise men.