Over and over I am seeing that today people do not regard the authority of scripture. I am finding it across age lines. Certainly it is most prominent among the millennials but it is increasing among all ages.
Culture is becoming king. Culture is becoming lord and god to people. I am very serious in this concern. Over and over I am finding that when ethical issues are raised there is a dismissal of scripture in favor of some very weak arguments against it. Some say, “Well Paul advocated slavery.” which of course is a poor expression of what Paul was teaching. They act as if Paul was with the wrong political party or as if he could tell them to change things that were not accessible to them.
It simply seems that the Bible carries little weight except to validate a person’s own viewpoint.
I’ll throw some spice in the pot…
I can make a much stronger “biblical” case for embracing the alien among us than I can for discouraging premarital sex.
The authority in question is a moral authority…and if the people representing that authority are seen to have forfeited it or have subjugated it to political considerations…is it any wonder that it is rejected by thoughtful persons ?
Jesus has authority not because the Bible says so but rather cause He was conceived of the Holy Spirit who gave inspiration to the authors that wrote the Bible in the first place that tells the story of Him. He is the alpha and omega. He is God and He has authority. This is where all authority comes from in every sphere of life.
#’1 – 5 = good … #4 = especially good IMHO … but i love theories
in olden days there was a sense of a creator that permeated the whole human race – a creator who could hurt us, i.e., leprosy, broken bones, earthquakes, droughts etc… so down thru time, if you told someone that there was a God and He was a good god, i think people saw their need and listened- it hasn’t been very long ago that the big theological debate was, would God “let” man go to the moon … we’ve been there and beyond and haven’t seen any sign of God (there are those rumors of little one eyed men out there however)
we’re coming off of a marvelous period of progress in science (immunizations, heart transplants; electricity and gasoline engines and other engines and pipelines and bug sprays, etc)
our children have had it drummed into their little skulls (in the places that we send them to get smart) that if there is a god, nobody’s seen one – he can darn well look you up, if he’s interested … religion? isn’t that what’s held mankind back … hmmm … a new religion might be good, maybe we can put one together that is more convenient? a better design to rally round, one of tolerance, of peace and love … sounds good and if there is a god, he’s welcome to come visit and see what we’ve done
can’t wait (probably won’t be here) for those two witnesses of Rev. 11 to show up and tell everyone to repent (apologies to those who think they are not two literal beings)
Now, I’m feeling cantankerous today…so I’ll say again what I’ve been saying for years.
Any intelligent young person who was not raised in cultural Christianity (like we were) is going to have huge problems reconciling the Scriptures with the positions and politics of American corporate evangelicalism.
Anyone who doesn’t have a hard time reconciling the Sermon on the Mount with what passes for cultural Christianity today has not read the passage with any clarity…
Michael, cantankerous is good … some truth requires cantankerousity 🙂 but stop and rest – only short burst of cantankerousness until you’re well again
i hope your righteous cantankerousness spreads throughout the Church – sometimes one has to bark at a dog to get it to listen… no, i’m not saying we’re dogs, but somebody did … long time ago
I’m starting to get a handle on how much orneriness I’m allowed every day. 🙂
I just received a bunch of books delivered from a publisher that wants me to review them…and if anyone wonders why we have issues, I’ll send them this pile.
All about how to grow your crowd and grow your brand…
Michael,
I think you give too much credit to American Evangelicalism. They are just one portion of the pot called Christianity. Who cares what they think? Political candidates are the ones who make people think they are a big or important voting block … and these candidates keep getting defeated.
American Evangelicals are wrong theologically, ecclesiastically and now we see they are wrong politically. So, we do not need to reconcile anything about them – we just need to take their fire away by calling them out to the unsuspecting voting public.
Michael,
Good book – I haven’t read it but here are 2 interviews with the author that I did listen to. I guess that is the kind of book they sell when the Lutherans invade a PCA church 🙂
Michael,
Excellent points regarding Scripture.
The Bible has a long history of supporting or not supporting just about anything its readers fancy or don’t fancy.
Got a question. I’ve been searching the web trying to get a clear picture of what Max Lucado actually believes. I read a bit about the Church of Christ and he seemed to be distancing himself from that. I also read he is heavy into grace which is great in my book but outside of what some might consider light reading when it comes to his books is Max a man who has left the essentials in any way? Thanks.
I’m convinced Jesus mediates His authority in more ways unseen than seen. Usually we only want to look at what we can perceive with our senses. The kingdom is here and in my humble opinion most of its invisible. I pray that I have ears to hear and eyes to see.
As a product of 1980s conservative evangelicalism (I was saved in 1988), and exposed conservative evangelical thought stream that was the zeitgeist of the late 80s/early 90s, I can attest that sexual ethics were the be-all, end-all of the Christians view of politics/culture, pretty much to the exclusion of social ethics.
My theory also says that not only do we demand submission to the sexual ethics over the social ones, but that those who do embrace a biblical social ethic are scorned as “liberals”.
I would call them “conservative biblicists”…but I’m a jerk. 🙂
one thing though… the focus on sex? i think that was an attempt to push back against the so-called sexual revolution in progress
but our Faith isn’t a game of tennis, is it?.. God hasn’t intended the Church to just stand on our side of the court waiting for the devil’s next serve – however, i’m happy to be scorned, to be identified as one of the fundy evangelicals …
we fundies are owned by God – when He needs us, He’ll clean us up, just like He’s doing now with some other “Traditions” 🙂
speaking of other traditions, watching Scalia’s son conduct his funeral mass was so touching… even if tediously long (no wonder Obama begged off – or maybe wasn’t welcome? dunno)
“Michael, I HATE that when people say “Liberal” if you care for the poor, environment, economics, homelessness, etc” that’s what they used to call Christian
Sexual ethics are quite objective, either/or, issues. Not a lot of nuance.
Social ethics are quite subjective and as I have sought to demonstrate many times here, (mostly to crickets), the issue is HOW to best care for the poor, not whether to…..
I have a lot on the plate but I do think the above is a (maybe THE) reason why it seems sexual ethics seem (emphasis on seem) to be so focused…even as churches continue to have food closets and other helps ministries to those in their community.
Add to that the congregation is paying taxes (often high taxes) in large part to support social efforts already, and yet that same government that demands taxes also encourages sexual sin – so no surprise the message tends to steer in one direction.
As an aside, in reading (and teaching) through the books of Kings we see those revivals and we see the decadence and sexual sin is greatly emphasized in the text. We have spoken of the prophets and the focus of their message to the people but it is not exactly like the Bible is silent on equating a nation’s spiritual health with their attitudes and actions as to sex.
I have a lot on the plate
——————————–
Meaning I’m off likely the rest of the day – but I doubt there is anything I could add I have not written here many times prior
“We have spoken of the prophets and the focus of their message to the people but it is not exactly like the Bible is silent on equating a nation’s spiritual health with their attitudes and actions as to sex.”
I guess it is subjective…because when I read the prophets I read that a nations spiritual health is related to how it treats the poor and oppressed.
I’m still amazed by Jesus mission statement…which is a quote from the prophets.
““The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.””
(Luke 4:18–19 ESV)
Michael, I love the Luke 4 sermon. But it’s a bitter pill to swallow. Many of us don’t identity very well with Jesus’ target audience. Worse yet, we don’t like grace being handed out like that. Doesn’t God help those who help themselves?
This is how we react:
“When they heard these things, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath. And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff.” (Luke 4:28-29 ESV)
Like (a lot of) sexual ethics are clear cut, and easy to tell where someone is in the wrong,…
maybe this is why churches have said no to women in leadership – “she’s a woman – she’s ineligible”, but when it comes to “Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money”, then we ask “how self-controlled?”, “what does hospitable mean?”, “when does debating issues make one quarrelsome?”, “can I love the things money can buy?”. Those qualities are harder to judge so maybe not much attention paid to them.
Then again, How many Christian leaders have we seen suing Christians, when that seems to be a very specific thing we’re told not to do. So BD is right – we follow the bible, except when we don’t want to.
I’ve hardly read any of this thread yet as I just got on for the first time today but I did see your question. I have read quite a few Lucado books, although no recent ones. I think he is theologically sound as far as I remember. He doesn’t get into most things very deeply theologically, but I never spotted any difficulties with him either. I normally found his writing to be quite encouraging.
His church I believe is still technically Church of Christ but it’s really more mainstream evangelical. I don’t think they follow some of the normally differentiating ways for the Church of Christ such as the necessity of baptism for salvation or the restriction on the use of instruments in worship.
Thanks Kevin H, You’re much nicer than that old meanie Michael! 🙂 I came across the things you stated in your second paragraph but I was still uneasy as I didn’t want to give someone one of his books only to learn it might be dangerous in a way I wasn’t aware of. Thanks to you and Michael!
Steve said “Social ethics are quite subjective and as I have sought to demonstrate many times here, (mostly to crickets), the issue is HOW to best care for the poor, not whether to…..”
I don’t know that it is subjective at all – while we decide how to best do it – in the end, does the hungry guy walk away with a bologna sandwich or not?
Well, CNN has now called the S.C. primary for Trump, in a state with a significant evangelical GOP voting block. Now I have no idea what evangelicals stand for. If the Trump candidacy was a fiction novel, no one would have bought the book because the key to good fiction is that it must be believable. So, to our evangelical readers, what gives with Trump? What is the attraction that evangelicals consider a virtue?
So, let’s revisit BD’s question up top in light of Jean’s announcement.
Those who claim to hold to biblical ethics and authority vote en masse for an adulterer, fornicator, and mocker of the disabled who wants to deport all the aliens.
we did used to say that everyone in the South considered themselves Christians – it’s tradition 🙂 for some reason that makes them all evangelical??
i’m puzzled as to why Trump is put in an evangelical box … ratio-wise i wouldn’t be surprised to learn more baptized R.C.s are Trump supporters
it might be more intellectually honest to simply wonder what draws good honest people to Trump…
FWIW – today, this fundy evangelical is leaning toward pragmatist patriot John Kasich and Dr. Ben Carson is a lot tougher minded and smarter than he’s given credit for being IMHO … but then i never ever did follow the crowd very well
1. I know each state has its own rules concerning how the delegates get divvied up or of a delegate can do what he wants at the convention.
2. Trump my be adored (in the worst sense of the word) by a certain crowd but by and large, isn’t it the party regulars, the stalwarts of Republicanism, who go to the convention as delegates? A group of people who cannot stand Trump? The Republican Establishment?
3. What happens if Trump wins a majority of delegates but when he gets to the convention, the delegates refuse to nominate him? Can this even happen?
4. What will happen then? His worshipers will go berserk and will form a third party which will guarantee a Dem win?
5. Bill Clinton does not look well. What if the old goat passes away before the election? (Not wishing for this, mind you). Will Hillary continue on?
6. Why am I finding myself thinking that if it comes down to Trump vs Bernie I might just vote for Bernie because I don’t think he can do much more harm than Obama has already done whereas I think Trump could easily start WW 3?
Here is the Washington Post on Trump & Evangelicals.
In the opening scene lookat the decorated church stage and lobby area. Evangelicals feel stronger about the 2nd amendment than they do the 2nd commandment.
maybe – dunno – folk are beginning to tire of people who smile and promise good times? has anyone considered that, if this were true, that the evangelicals are drawn to Trump, that might be the reason? celebrity pastors take note, perhaps your days and income stream are numbered, too …
i think Xenia’s pt. 2 is accurate… neither Trump nor Sanders will get the nomination, if the two partys have their way… we could even see a 4 way race of 4 front-runners this is really, really an interesting year to get a picture of the nation’s mindset(s)
WOW! I am getting my kicks on that comment about how evangelicals feel stronger about the 2nd amendment than they do the 2nd commandment! Great!
Probably reflects well here in Georgia (yes, that was me stereotyping…wouldn’t be so funny until you see all the trucks down here with confederate flags on them).
I can only speak for myself as an almost-former evangelical, that if Trump wins the GOP nomination and ultimately the Presidency, I will perpetually deny having ever supported him or having voted for him or even thinking highly of him, and I don’t give a rats you-know-what how many times the rooster crows after my denials, he is not our political savior!
“Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.” (Psalm 84:10 NIV)
I have a proposal. Let us all fulfill our individual vocations, including as voters. However, let’s consider our ultimate (not penultimate) citizenship as paramount. Let’s stand with the psalmist. Let us build up the Church and our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Likewise, let’s call heresy, false teaching, greed, and spiritual abuse what they are, and cut them out of the body like a malignant tumor.
Trump is popular with evangelicals because they have been fed heresy. It’s a one to one correlation. This election demonstrates the actual, tangible consequences of false Christian teaching. This election demonstrates exactly what St. Paul meant when he wrote that God “handed them over”.
“Let us build up the Church and our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Likewise, let’s call heresy, false teaching, greed, and spiritual abuse what they are, and cut them out of the body like a malignant tumor.” i agree, but isn’t this Christian nativism? 🙂
I see Trump’s attraction with evangelicals directly tied to their being taught a false theology of glory. Let me give you an easy example:
Trump is wealthy and claims to be Christian and promises to make America (I.e., all of his supporters) great (I.e., wealthy). If you believe that God rewards his faithful followers with temporal wealth and success, then Trump appears to be a great Christian. When Trump promises that America will start “winning again” isn’t that what the theologian of glory expects?
If theologians of the cross do not call the heretics to account (and I don’t care how nice or handsome J. Osteen is) , then we are complicit in the consequences that befall America.
Looks like Marco Rubio is going to become the establishment candidate for the GOP. If you take Jeb’s and all the others and add them up Rubio can take Trump. Rubio looks like he’s going to finish second in S.C. and if he does, watch out. And Rubio can nullify Clinton’s “first woman” by being the first hispanic president and I can definitely see a Rubio, Nikki Haley (Gov of S.C.) ticket which would make her the nation’s first female vice president. Watch out!
We can personify this as three separate people, American People, Big Business, and Government.
When Government sides with Big Business against the American People (keeping immigration law unenforced and allowing them to import products made by slave wages) the People will be offended.
When Big Business exports jobs for greedy gain, the American People are again offended.
Theologically, there can’t be forgiveness without repentance, so I think there is a feeling that Mr. Trump is a strong enough man to demand repentance from Big Business and Government regardless of his personal morality (not saying this desire is an appropriate thing)
Whether he is Christian would not seem to be important to Evangelicals as they may see the age old Might Makes Right more attractive than turning the other cheek and enduring suffering.
I will say I see many of these issues as resulting from following the subtlty of the Enemy/Advisary (now the Serpent was the most subtil of the beasts of he field). There are so many things in the culture/church that have been turned backwards in the name of tolerance or being ‘nice’. Many times Satanists do things backwards in defiance of God.
coming to the conclusion that the evangelical Christian is for Trump because he wants to get rich is far too simplistic…
Cash’s prediction of a Rubio – Haley ticket is an intriguing, real possibility …maybe Hillary and Barney will come to an understanding also
Well, I wouldn’t say it is so much to get rich as much as to set things right which can be viewed as maintaining power/returning to a more homogenous society in which an evangelical can feel comfortable rather than alienated (but being Pilgrims, this is a poor goal).
Jobs leaving, strangers pouring in, race baiting, gender wars, loss of community are all symptoms of a loss of national sovereignty/self determination to elites with agendas opposite the typical American. Men’s hearts will be failing then for fear in the end times, but perfect love cats out all fear.
There may also be a bit of desire for revenge which Mr. Trump skillfully taps with schoolyard antics. Another unholy motivation.
Mind you, I’m speculating on the reasons, not presenting my desires. The popular political Christianity is obviously quite different than what I’ve seen from my research into Orthodox beliefs.
I just don’t see Christ involved in fighting for Country in His first Advent. He was/is fighting for souls. Seems the second Advent will be political and it will not be a democracy 🙂
One thing that’s always fascinated me is how God will use the World and non Christians to deliver Christians. Following the Sermon on the Mount can set you up for ‘abuse’, but I think God will honor our faith and deliver us in His time and His way.
There is a certain Righteous anger we can have, but we are to demonstrate our faith in this time by loving our enemies. Obviously that will not be the case when Christ returns as He will have His robes covered in blood as He slays His enemies. How is that ‘Christian’? Because He is perfect in judgement. I think God is pleased that we are uncomfortable because it is indicative of our desire for Him. He has just tasked us with loving our enemies as the ultimate demonstration of faith. That doesn’t mean there won’t be justice or vengeance as Revelation makes clear, just that it is His battle, not ours
We are not electing a pope. We are electing a leader. Trump is a brilliant negotiator who accomplishes pretty much everything he attempts. EVs, women, youth, men, seniors, etc all supported him in SC. America wants to win. We want winners. Trump is a winner. It is not all about the borders folks. It is ALL ABOUT THE POCKETBOOK. A couple making 100G in CA pays over 35% in taxes right off the top. Not counting sales tax property tax energy tax etc. We live in a confiscatory system where most (yes majority) are takers and minority supports them. We could maybe live with that system (maybe) if the govt didn’t waste 15 cents on every dollar on over 450 federal agencies wasteful procurement etc.
Trump will run America like a corporation. He will fire the losers and hire winners. That’s why he will b the next president. My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!
Cookie – Trump has personal wealth, but along the way he has bankrupted several of his companies and takes advantage of the system to survive. He my friend is the taker.
Among his several company bankruptcies were a hotel, an airline a casino and a real estate investment enterprise (and others).
Donald Trump has had 4 personal bankruptcies.
When someone bankrupts, the “system” (that’s us) has to take their loss. So tell me again how throughout all of these bankruptcies he still remains a billionaire???
Do you not think that Trump has taken more than his fair share from this system? In dollars, I would imagine that Trump has taken more from the system over his lifetime than all the Guatemalan refugees in Orange County have combined in their lifetimes.
But in America, we all have our one vote to cast the way we see fit.
“My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!”
I know it’s in bad taste to bring this up, but as the master of bad taste on this blog – I think several family conversations have transpired with these words … including 1932 Germany.
MLD get your facts straight. Donald Trump has NEVER filed for personal bankruptcy. He’s had 4 Chapter 11 reorganization bankruptcies which are common business practices. 3of the 4 were related to the casino business in Atlantic City which has bankrupted almost everyone. His businesses alone have created over 40000 jobs and just his 8 revitalization and rebuilding projects in NY alone ( Wollman Rink, 40 Wall St, Riverside South, etc.) have added billions to NY economy. Look you can dislike the man and you can try to discredit the man but if anyone wants to start comparing Trump to Hitler I hope this blog host would put a stop to such despicable nonsense
Thankfuls first paragraph hit it on the head…and the rest of the comment was wise as well.
What Trump does masterfully is hide the true complexity of all the issues we face so that it seems that a “strong man” could solve them.
Somehow, otherwise intelligent people buy into this.
Let me repost what Thankful said because it bears repeating;
“Well, I wouldn’t say it is so much to get rich as much as to set things right which can be viewed as maintaining power/returning to a more homogenous society in which an evangelical can feel comfortable rather than alienated (but being Pilgrims, this is a poor goal).”
1-this is not a repeat of 1932 … that’s still to come 🙂 history is cyclical
2-i’m pretty tired of the focus of this blog, making evangelicals the cause of the state of this nation …
3-the big players are trying to be all things to what they identify as the big voter blocks… if you look at their bait it is all, “I will solve YOUR problems, fulfill YOUR dreams – Let’s make America great again” … that doesn’t tell us much, no matter whose mouth it comes out of … today, even tho i agree with some of his promises, the one who scares me the most is Bernie Sanders… i won’t say what i see when i look at him as it would really cause some anger… and i don’t KNOW that what i think i see is what he is behind the smile, do i?
When any leader attributes to other ethnic groups the evil that Trump did to Mexicans and plans to deport them by the millions, the similarities to Hitlerian rhetoric are unavoidable.
The idea that one man can solve complex issues on his own by sheer will or force would also have evangelicals speaking about the anti-Christ if he was running as a Democrat.
Evangelicals have gone out of their way to become an identifiable voting bloc.
The exit polls I saw were asking people to self identify…and some of us have a hard time accepting that people with a Gospel base would vote for a man with such character.
People can vote for whoever they wish and they should…but they should abandon any pretense that the vote has anything to do with the faith once delivered to the saints.
Cookie, I assume that everything you said in your 72 are not only Trump’s ideals, but yours as well? Almost every statement you made can be countered by something Christ said in the Gospels. Doesn’t this bother you?
Xenia what are you talking about? 72 said nothing about ideals. The Gospel does not say we give everything to the govt to redistribute how it wishes. We have individual responsibility to help others. But I’ll b damned if I will allow govt to confiscate my property to redistribute. That’s socialism not the gospel. Show me how any statement I made can be countered by Christs words? I am responsible for the Gospel, yes. But that has nothing to do with who I select as my president. Are you saying you wouldn’t vote for a Jewish president? A Mormon president? Who’s the xenophobe?
“My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!
Cookie about Trump.”
“The trains WILL run on time.”
Mussoliini, Italian fascist and close ally of Hitler
MLD blows is it on getting his facts correct relating to trumps bk. The corporations filed bk, not trump personally. But I detect mld is a little snooty, relative to his comment. Trump employees thousands of people. There is alot not to like about trump. But at least don’t spread misinformation even though he is not a born again believer.
I’ve been driving a big rig professionally for 7 years. As such, I have witnessed some crazy antics on the road committed by both cars and big rigs, I was finally personally affected by it.
I was minding my business on I-5 S. through Sacramento a few weeks ago on a Saturday morning around 1100. I was in the #3 out of 4 lanes, 55 mph keeping it between the lines. In an instant I felt a thump at the rear passenger side of the trailer. I looked in the mirror and saw a car spinning clockwise away from under the trailer! Windshield smashed and a tire flying through the air.
I was unable to pull over immediately, however, did so where it was safe and called 911. I made a visual inspection of the trailer and saw damage to the aluminum side rail and damage to the end of a crossbeam.
They dispatched an officer to me who took the report. I discovered the other driver was uninjured and was relieved, however, it took almost a month for me to actually get my hands on the accident report.
It turns out the driver who hit me was a 20 year female. She admitted to driving at speeds of 90 to 100 mph, she was in a hurry to go “see her mother.” She was in the #2 lane and made an unsafe lane change behind me into the #4 lane.
The officer reported she was driving on “balding tires” on wet pavement. When she came around me one of her tires blew, she spun counter clockwise underneath the trailer, hit the hanger bracket on the front rear axle and was spun back out from the underside of the trailer.
Oh, I forgot to mention she was using a handheld device! Probably updating a selfie on her Facebook page…
Now, this accident will be listed on CSA as an accident that I was involved in and will also be listed on my own personal company authority with NO distinction of who was at fault! Only that another big rig was involved in a vehicular accident.
I hope the young lady had a come to Jesus movement. In addition, I hope they suspend her license for a year and get her off the road.
Cookie – “but if anyone wants to start comparing Trump to Hitler I hope this blog host would put a stop to such despicable nonsense”
My comment was not comparing Trump to Hitler at all – and I am surprised you made that leap. My comparison was to the comments you attributed to you, your husband and many of your friends to the exact same dinner table conversations going on in 1932 Germany to rationalize why Hitler was the right choice to settle and solve the problems at hand (also designated around “those people”).
As they said like you, in good German voice “have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the Reichstag building and we stop screwing around!
Even if I misspoke on details of all of Trump’s BKs (and he has many) – see the link stating that Trumps companies have the most BKs of any company in the past 30 yrs. I want to know how that is going to translate into he knows how to run a government and a budget.
When a company BKs, even Ch 11 it’s reorganization is costing others as he negotiates pennies on the dollar at the same time no financial loss or pain on his part. He just passes on the cost to others … just as he accuses the South American immigrants – even call them illegal – but Trump has found the better way to work the system.
The fact that Cookie uses the term BOSS in all caps means that she has bought in to the reality star version of Trump. I’ll bet she thinks the Kardashians are true also.
Trump isn’t as black and white as we think… his speeches are couched in the language that the guy digging the trench, the plumbing contractor, the heavy equipment operator and the engineer respect and these are the guys can’t find work in their trades and are family men/women and some go to church, call themselves evangelicals … there are more votes there than there are establishment votes and kids who can’t pay their student loans…
His track record, his conduct, is no better or worse than the other candidates IMV – The man is very smart, street savvy – both Main St. and Wall Street … however, his ability to run the nation would be all new territory and would depend on his ability to find rational advisors, his ability to listen to men way smarter than he is, so it is his ego that scares me most of anything that i’ve seen of him so far … however, if he comes out and says that he’ll appoint Carly Fiorina as Secretary of State, maybe he’ll get my vote 🙂
This is why people attend abusive churches. (One of the reasons.) They think “others” are getting away with stuff and they want a pastor who speaks his mind and tells it like it is. They cheer when a sinner gets disciplined by the church.
Until they are the sinner. Then they claim “abuse.”
“I hope the young lady had a come to Jesus movement. ” clearly Jesus was there – what a mercy…
i read somewhere that young people are waiting longer to get their driver’s licenses and yet are not very good drivers
#100 – amen … as Obama recently said the job of being President is harder than it looks
even God, Himself, cannot straighten this world out, so why would we think we can find a man to do it? … for quite some time now, we haven’t done much to even make things better and probably not for a lack of trying on the part of some good folks … here ‘n there
Can a unbeliever be born again if he hasn’t received forgiveness?
Hence, my belief is trump is as Christian as Obama. One major difference, I do believe trump is for strong America economically and military. Unlike Obama who wants to turn us into Sweden.
Josh the Beloved,
“Unlike Obama who wants to turn us into Sweden.”
Do you mean Sweden that has a very strong and vibrant economy or the Sweden that is not at war constantly for the past 100 yrs?
Sweden’s national debt = 43.97% of GDP
USA national debt = 104.68% of GDP — I think I will go with Obama’s plan instead of Trump’s
Since 1941 the US has either been preparing to go to war – at war – or coming out of war.
Sweden – the have ABBA
the Declaration of Indepence was our forefather’s answer to having had a BOSS in charge.
In this country “the people” are supposed to be in charge, not some BOSS.
Ohmigosh! You folks are unbelievable. When I said we need a BOSS- i was referring to needing a high level corporate executive who could make the tough business decisions that America needs. Like letting bankrupt agencies go bankrupt. Like hiring qualified folks for high level jobs (not making former chief of staff head of CIA and Defense Secretary, e.g.). Like negotiating deals with opposition parties and opposition leaders. Like understanding basic economics nd not spending more money than you have.
Yet by using the word BOSS- i’m compared to people who attend abusive churches- I’m compared to Germans wishing for an Adolf Hitler- my Chrstian ideals and values are brought under question.
Gosh- the hypocrisy and the demagogery here is just unbelievable.
Cookie, your rebuke should be considered by all of us who post here… there is a tendency to grab a line and bend it to serve us in expressing our viewpoints… and your elaboration on “Boss” is sound thinking IMV… one thing most here do agree on – IMV – is that our national leadership is infested with politics, with comprising away all sound reasoning
I have not said anything hypocritical. You just don’t like what I said.
As far as demagoguery is concerned, Trump fits the definition perfectly.
dem·a·gogue
ˈdeməˌɡäɡ/
noun
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
synonyms: rabble-rouser, agitator, political agitator, soapbox orator, firebrand, fomenter, provocateur
“he was drawn into a circle of campus demagogues”
from my Apple dictionary:
“demagogue |ˈdeməˌgäg|
noun
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
• (in ancient Greece and Rome) a leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people.
…..”
it seems to me they’re all demagogues 🙂
It’s all yours today…
Over and over I am seeing that today people do not regard the authority of scripture. I am finding it across age lines. Certainly it is most prominent among the millennials but it is increasing among all ages.
Culture is becoming king. Culture is becoming lord and god to people. I am very serious in this concern. Over and over I am finding that when ethical issues are raised there is a dismissal of scripture in favor of some very weak arguments against it. Some say, “Well Paul advocated slavery.” which of course is a poor expression of what Paul was teaching. They act as if Paul was with the wrong political party or as if he could tell them to change things that were not accessible to them.
It simply seems that the Bible carries little weight except to validate a person’s own viewpoint.
BD,
I hear what you’re saying and I have some concerns of my own.
First of all, we have a semantic issue.
What do we mean by “authority”?
We can’t even agree on that, yet we want to sell it and demand subjection to it.
The second question I would have is what issues are we most concerned about…what “ethical ” issues are you speaking of?
I’ll throw some spice in the pot…
I can make a much stronger “biblical” case for embracing the alien among us than I can for discouraging premarital sex.
Which ethic are we most concerned about?
I have a theory…which is always dangerous. 🙂
Previous generations of American evangelicalism have emphasized sexual ethics while downplaying or ignoring social ethics.
This generation is reversing that emphasis.
Both groups end up with a half Gospel…
As long as I’m talking to myself…
The authority in question is a moral authority…and if the people representing that authority are seen to have forfeited it or have subjugated it to political considerations…is it any wonder that it is rejected by thoughtful persons ?
Jesus has authority not because the Bible says so but rather cause He was conceived of the Holy Spirit who gave inspiration to the authors that wrote the Bible in the first place that tells the story of Him. He is the alpha and omega. He is God and He has authority. This is where all authority comes from in every sphere of life.
Andrew,
You just used your interpretation of the Bible to make your faith decree.
I don’t dispute the authority of Christ, but how does He mediate that authority?
Through people using biblical interpretation…and everyone decides which parts are more authoritative.
#’1 – 5 = good … #4 = especially good IMHO … but i love theories
in olden days there was a sense of a creator that permeated the whole human race – a creator who could hurt us, i.e., leprosy, broken bones, earthquakes, droughts etc… so down thru time, if you told someone that there was a God and He was a good god, i think people saw their need and listened- it hasn’t been very long ago that the big theological debate was, would God “let” man go to the moon … we’ve been there and beyond and haven’t seen any sign of God (there are those rumors of little one eyed men out there however)
we’re coming off of a marvelous period of progress in science (immunizations, heart transplants; electricity and gasoline engines and other engines and pipelines and bug sprays, etc)
our children have had it drummed into their little skulls (in the places that we send them to get smart) that if there is a god, nobody’s seen one – he can darn well look you up, if he’s interested … religion? isn’t that what’s held mankind back … hmmm … a new religion might be good, maybe we can put one together that is more convenient? a better design to rally round, one of tolerance, of peace and love … sounds good and if there is a god, he’s welcome to come visit and see what we’ve done
can’t wait (probably won’t be here) for those two witnesses of Rev. 11 to show up and tell everyone to repent (apologies to those who think they are not two literal beings)
or so it seems to me … today 🙂
Em,
There is more than a little truth there…
Now, I’m feeling cantankerous today…so I’ll say again what I’ve been saying for years.
Any intelligent young person who was not raised in cultural Christianity (like we were) is going to have huge problems reconciling the Scriptures with the positions and politics of American corporate evangelicalism.
Anyone who doesn’t have a hard time reconciling the Sermon on the Mount with what passes for cultural Christianity today has not read the passage with any clarity…
Michael, cantankerous is good … some truth requires cantankerousity 🙂 but stop and rest – only short burst of cantankerousness until you’re well again
i hope your righteous cantankerousness spreads throughout the Church – sometimes one has to bark at a dog to get it to listen… no, i’m not saying we’re dogs, but somebody did … long time ago
Em,
I’m starting to get a handle on how much orneriness I’m allowed every day. 🙂
I just received a bunch of books delivered from a publisher that wants me to review them…and if anyone wonders why we have issues, I’ll send them this pile.
All about how to grow your crowd and grow your brand…
Michael,
I think you give too much credit to American Evangelicalism. They are just one portion of the pot called Christianity. Who cares what they think? Political candidates are the ones who make people think they are a big or important voting block … and these candidates keep getting defeated.
American Evangelicals are wrong theologically, ecclesiastically and now we see they are wrong politically. So, we do not need to reconcile anything about them – we just need to take their fire away by calling them out to the unsuspecting voting public.
MLD,
# 12 might be my favorite thing you ever wrote…
On another note I’ll be doing a review of a book that was spoken of at that 1517 conference…”Wittenburg vs. Geneva”.
One hell of a good book…
Michael,
Good book – I haven’t read it but here are 2 interviews with the author that I did listen to. I guess that is the kind of book they sell when the Lutherans invade a PCA church 🙂
#1
http://www.kfuoam.org/2015/12/14/cd-2015-12-14/
#2
http://www.kfuoam.org/2016/02/08/cd-2016-02-08/
Michael,
Excellent points regarding Scripture.
The Bible has a long history of supporting or not supporting just about anything its readers fancy or don’t fancy.
I want to highlight it with a article of it’s own…I’ll add those to it.
Very good apologetic for confessional Lutheranism.
Muff,
I’m in a sort of transition in my views about Scripture myself…nothing radical, just a different lens.
I’m sure it will be enough to damn me in some eyes, however… 🙂
Got a question. I’ve been searching the web trying to get a clear picture of what Max Lucado actually believes. I read a bit about the Church of Christ and he seemed to be distancing himself from that. I also read he is heavy into grace which is great in my book but outside of what some might consider light reading when it comes to his books is Max a man who has left the essentials in any way? Thanks.
I’m convinced Jesus mediates His authority in more ways unseen than seen. Usually we only want to look at what we can perceive with our senses. The kingdom is here and in my humble opinion most of its invisible. I pray that I have ears to hear and eyes to see.
Erunner,
I checked him out a few years ago and the only thing he was guilty of was writing lots of drivel. 🙂
Not everyone can be Packer…
Michael (your comment #4);
As a product of 1980s conservative evangelicalism (I was saved in 1988), and exposed conservative evangelical thought stream that was the zeitgeist of the late 80s/early 90s, I can attest that sexual ethics were the be-all, end-all of the Christians view of politics/culture, pretty much to the exclusion of social ethics.
I know you too well Michael!! 🙂 Thanks a lot!
Dan,
Thank you.
My theory also says that not only do we demand submission to the sexual ethics over the social ones, but that those who do embrace a biblical social ethic are scorned as “liberals”.
I would call them “conservative biblicists”…but I’m a jerk. 🙂
Anytime, E… glad to be of service. 🙂
Michael, I HATE that when people say “Liberal” if you care for the poor, environment, economics, homelessness, etc.
This is one area that the so-called progressives have in their favor is ethics in regards to the down and out.
Love your honesty Michael! Keep it up!
Thanks, Dan…I have no choice in my heart.
one thing though… the focus on sex? i think that was an attempt to push back against the so-called sexual revolution in progress
but our Faith isn’t a game of tennis, is it?.. God hasn’t intended the Church to just stand on our side of the court waiting for the devil’s next serve – however, i’m happy to be scorned, to be identified as one of the fundy evangelicals …
we fundies are owned by God – when He needs us, He’ll clean us up, just like He’s doing now with some other “Traditions” 🙂
speaking of other traditions, watching Scalia’s son conduct his funeral mass was so touching… even if tediously long (no wonder Obama begged off – or maybe wasn’t welcome? dunno)
just sayin … again
“Michael, I HATE that when people say “Liberal” if you care for the poor, environment, economics, homelessness, etc” that’s what they used to call Christian
Sexual ethics are quite objective, either/or, issues. Not a lot of nuance.
Social ethics are quite subjective and as I have sought to demonstrate many times here, (mostly to crickets), the issue is HOW to best care for the poor, not whether to…..
I have a lot on the plate but I do think the above is a (maybe THE) reason why it seems sexual ethics seem (emphasis on seem) to be so focused…even as churches continue to have food closets and other helps ministries to those in their community.
Add to that the congregation is paying taxes (often high taxes) in large part to support social efforts already, and yet that same government that demands taxes also encourages sexual sin – so no surprise the message tends to steer in one direction.
As an aside, in reading (and teaching) through the books of Kings we see those revivals and we see the decadence and sexual sin is greatly emphasized in the text. We have spoken of the prophets and the focus of their message to the people but it is not exactly like the Bible is silent on equating a nation’s spiritual health with their attitudes and actions as to sex.
It’s a love fest here today. 🙂
I just came back from Risen. Choked back tears more than once.
I have a lot on the plate
——————————–
Meaning I’m off likely the rest of the day – but I doubt there is anything I could add I have not written here many times prior
“We have spoken of the prophets and the focus of their message to the people but it is not exactly like the Bible is silent on equating a nation’s spiritual health with their attitudes and actions as to sex.”
I guess it is subjective…because when I read the prophets I read that a nations spiritual health is related to how it treats the poor and oppressed.
I’m still amazed by Jesus mission statement…which is a quote from the prophets.
““The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.””
(Luke 4:18–19 ESV)
On the current American religious scene, evangelicals are a lot like Donald Trump, currently, in the political arena.
Both suck the air out of the room.
Doesn’t mean they’re smart, sophisticated or have roots, however. Doesn’t mean there
aren’t meatier, better choices in other realms of Christendom.
Lutheran,
There are better choices and that’s why I will promote confessional Lutheranism or even Eastern Orthodoxy, though I’m a Calvinist.
We need to explain the choices out there as vigorously as we contend again error.
Michael, I love the Luke 4 sermon. But it’s a bitter pill to swallow. Many of us don’t identity very well with Jesus’ target audience. Worse yet, we don’t like grace being handed out like that. Doesn’t God help those who help themselves?
This is how we react:
“When they heard these things, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath. And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff.” (Luke 4:28-29 ESV)
Like (a lot of) sexual ethics are clear cut, and easy to tell where someone is in the wrong,…
maybe this is why churches have said no to women in leadership – “she’s a woman – she’s ineligible”, but when it comes to “Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money”, then we ask “how self-controlled?”, “what does hospitable mean?”, “when does debating issues make one quarrelsome?”, “can I love the things money can buy?”. Those qualities are harder to judge so maybe not much attention paid to them.
Then again, How many Christian leaders have we seen suing Christians, when that seems to be a very specific thing we’re told not to do. So BD is right – we follow the bible, except when we don’t want to.
Jean,
@ 35… you have unfortunately spoken well…
Erunner,
I’ve hardly read any of this thread yet as I just got on for the first time today but I did see your question. I have read quite a few Lucado books, although no recent ones. I think he is theologically sound as far as I remember. He doesn’t get into most things very deeply theologically, but I never spotted any difficulties with him either. I normally found his writing to be quite encouraging.
His church I believe is still technically Church of Christ but it’s really more mainstream evangelical. I don’t think they follow some of the normally differentiating ways for the Church of Christ such as the necessity of baptism for salvation or the restriction on the use of instruments in worship.
Thanks Kevin H, You’re much nicer than that old meanie Michael! 🙂 I came across the things you stated in your second paragraph but I was still uneasy as I didn’t want to give someone one of his books only to learn it might be dangerous in a way I wasn’t aware of. Thanks to you and Michael!
Steve said “Social ethics are quite subjective and as I have sought to demonstrate many times here, (mostly to crickets), the issue is HOW to best care for the poor, not whether to…..”
I don’t know that it is subjective at all – while we decide how to best do it – in the end, does the hungry guy walk away with a bologna sandwich or not?
E, I’ve still got a few more years in life to catch up to Michael’s levels of cynicism and curmudgeonness. 🙂
Well, CNN has now called the S.C. primary for Trump, in a state with a significant evangelical GOP voting block. Now I have no idea what evangelicals stand for. If the Trump candidacy was a fiction novel, no one would have bought the book because the key to good fiction is that it must be believable. So, to our evangelical readers, what gives with Trump? What is the attraction that evangelicals consider a virtue?
So, let’s revisit BD’s question up top in light of Jean’s announcement.
Those who claim to hold to biblical ethics and authority vote en masse for an adulterer, fornicator, and mocker of the disabled who wants to deport all the aliens.
Now, ask me again why people see a disconnect…
I simply cannot understand how any Christian can find common ground with Trump.
What’s that saying? Those who sup with the devil had better use a long spoon?
Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn
They will learn the truth of this Proverb soon enough.
Xenia,
I have my theories, but as I just said to another friend, they would probably end up with my house on fire…
we did used to say that everyone in the South considered themselves Christians – it’s tradition 🙂 for some reason that makes them all evangelical??
i’m puzzled as to why Trump is put in an evangelical box … ratio-wise i wouldn’t be surprised to learn more baptized R.C.s are Trump supporters
it might be more intellectually honest to simply wonder what draws good honest people to Trump…
FWIW – today, this fundy evangelical is leaning toward pragmatist patriot John Kasich and Dr. Ben Carson is a lot tougher minded and smarter than he’s given credit for being IMHO … but then i never ever did follow the crowd very well
1. I know each state has its own rules concerning how the delegates get divvied up or of a delegate can do what he wants at the convention.
2. Trump my be adored (in the worst sense of the word) by a certain crowd but by and large, isn’t it the party regulars, the stalwarts of Republicanism, who go to the convention as delegates? A group of people who cannot stand Trump? The Republican Establishment?
3. What happens if Trump wins a majority of delegates but when he gets to the convention, the delegates refuse to nominate him? Can this even happen?
4. What will happen then? His worshipers will go berserk and will form a third party which will guarantee a Dem win?
5. Bill Clinton does not look well. What if the old goat passes away before the election? (Not wishing for this, mind you). Will Hillary continue on?
6. Why am I finding myself thinking that if it comes down to Trump vs Bernie I might just vote for Bernie because I don’t think he can do much more harm than Obama has already done whereas I think Trump could easily start WW 3?
Michael, you gave us your nativist theory, which I thought was right explanation.
Xenia,
Good questions.
I’m sitting this election out as I can’t vote for any of the above with a clear conscience.
Here is the Washington Post on Trump & Evangelicals.
In the opening scene lookat the decorated church stage and lobby area. Evangelicals feel stronger about the 2nd amendment than they do the 2nd commandment.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-divides-south-carolinas-evangelicals/2016/02/19/29f56bd8-d6ca-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_video.html
maybe – dunno – folk are beginning to tire of people who smile and promise good times? has anyone considered that, if this were true, that the evangelicals are drawn to Trump, that might be the reason? celebrity pastors take note, perhaps your days and income stream are numbered, too …
dunno – just pondering
Xenia,
I forgot I did that…but it’s the whole reason.
This is all about nativism.
MLD is flat on fire today… he’s a lot of fun when I agree with him… 🙂
Evangelicals feel stronger about the 2nd amendment than they do the 2nd commandment.<<<
One of the most astute things ever said on the PhxP.
I would qualify it with *some* Evangelicals…
i think Xenia’s pt. 2 is accurate… neither Trump nor Sanders will get the nomination, if the two partys have their way… we could even see a 4 way race of 4 front-runners this is really, really an interesting year to get a picture of the nation’s mindset(s)
as to WW3, i think that it has already started – the question is, who can we elect to stop it?
I am convinced Trump will get the nomination.
I would not bet against him in the general election.
He represents the last great hope of the nativist…and has made their feelings not only acceptable, but popular.
WOW! I am getting my kicks on that comment about how evangelicals feel stronger about the 2nd amendment than they do the 2nd commandment! Great!
Probably reflects well here in Georgia (yes, that was me stereotyping…wouldn’t be so funny until you see all the trucks down here with confederate flags on them).
I can only speak for myself as an almost-former evangelical, that if Trump wins the GOP nomination and ultimately the Presidency, I will perpetually deny having ever supported him or having voted for him or even thinking highly of him, and I don’t give a rats you-know-what how many times the rooster crows after my denials, he is not our political savior!
“Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.” (Psalm 84:10 NIV)
I have a proposal. Let us all fulfill our individual vocations, including as voters. However, let’s consider our ultimate (not penultimate) citizenship as paramount. Let’s stand with the psalmist. Let us build up the Church and our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Likewise, let’s call heresy, false teaching, greed, and spiritual abuse what they are, and cut them out of the body like a malignant tumor.
Trump is popular with evangelicals because they have been fed heresy. It’s a one to one correlation. This election demonstrates the actual, tangible consequences of false Christian teaching. This election demonstrates exactly what St. Paul meant when he wrote that God “handed them over”.
Jean,
That is a profound comment…I need to chew on that for a bit.
“Let us build up the Church and our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Likewise, let’s call heresy, false teaching, greed, and spiritual abuse what they are, and cut them out of the body like a malignant tumor.” i agree, but isn’t this Christian nativism? 🙂
I see Trump’s attraction with evangelicals directly tied to their being taught a false theology of glory. Let me give you an easy example:
Trump is wealthy and claims to be Christian and promises to make America (I.e., all of his supporters) great (I.e., wealthy). If you believe that God rewards his faithful followers with temporal wealth and success, then Trump appears to be a great Christian. When Trump promises that America will start “winning again” isn’t that what the theologian of glory expects?
If theologians of the cross do not call the heretics to account (and I don’t care how nice or handsome J. Osteen is) , then we are complicit in the consequences that befall America.
Wow, one of the most qualified, competent, actual conservative candidates (Jeb) dropped out. I guess he really was “low energy”.
For what it’s worth, I think he could have made a fine President.
Looks like Marco Rubio is going to become the establishment candidate for the GOP. If you take Jeb’s and all the others and add them up Rubio can take Trump. Rubio looks like he’s going to finish second in S.C. and if he does, watch out. And Rubio can nullify Clinton’s “first woman” by being the first hispanic president and I can definitely see a Rubio, Nikki Haley (Gov of S.C.) ticket which would make her the nation’s first female vice president. Watch out!
Jean, your description of evangelicals is correct. However it is not a false theology of glory – it is definitional theology of glory.
And you don’t need to be wealthy like Trump or Osteen – the only requirement is to think you can look at you life and know if you are pleasing to God.
We can personify this as three separate people, American People, Big Business, and Government.
When Government sides with Big Business against the American People (keeping immigration law unenforced and allowing them to import products made by slave wages) the People will be offended.
When Big Business exports jobs for greedy gain, the American People are again offended.
Theologically, there can’t be forgiveness without repentance, so I think there is a feeling that Mr. Trump is a strong enough man to demand repentance from Big Business and Government regardless of his personal morality (not saying this desire is an appropriate thing)
Whether he is Christian would not seem to be important to Evangelicals as they may see the age old Might Makes Right more attractive than turning the other cheek and enduring suffering.
I will say I see many of these issues as resulting from following the subtlty of the Enemy/Advisary (now the Serpent was the most subtil of the beasts of he field). There are so many things in the culture/church that have been turned backwards in the name of tolerance or being ‘nice’. Many times Satanists do things backwards in defiance of God.
coming to the conclusion that the evangelical Christian is for Trump because he wants to get rich is far too simplistic…
Cash’s prediction of a Rubio – Haley ticket is an intriguing, real possibility …maybe Hillary and Barney will come to an understanding also
God keep all close and focused
I don’t think Bernie Sanders would want Hillary as VP….. Just a heartbeat a way from being President, ?
Well, I wouldn’t say it is so much to get rich as much as to set things right which can be viewed as maintaining power/returning to a more homogenous society in which an evangelical can feel comfortable rather than alienated (but being Pilgrims, this is a poor goal).
Jobs leaving, strangers pouring in, race baiting, gender wars, loss of community are all symptoms of a loss of national sovereignty/self determination to elites with agendas opposite the typical American. Men’s hearts will be failing then for fear in the end times, but perfect love cats out all fear.
There may also be a bit of desire for revenge which Mr. Trump skillfully taps with schoolyard antics. Another unholy motivation.
Mind you, I’m speculating on the reasons, not presenting my desires. The popular political Christianity is obviously quite different than what I’ve seen from my research into Orthodox beliefs.
I just don’t see Christ involved in fighting for Country in His first Advent. He was/is fighting for souls. Seems the second Advent will be political and it will not be a democracy 🙂
One thing that’s always fascinated me is how God will use the World and non Christians to deliver Christians. Following the Sermon on the Mount can set you up for ‘abuse’, but I think God will honor our faith and deliver us in His time and His way.
There is a certain Righteous anger we can have, but we are to demonstrate our faith in this time by loving our enemies. Obviously that will not be the case when Christ returns as He will have His robes covered in blood as He slays His enemies. How is that ‘Christian’? Because He is perfect in judgement. I think God is pleased that we are uncomfortable because it is indicative of our desire for Him. He has just tasked us with loving our enemies as the ultimate demonstration of faith. That doesn’t mean there won’t be justice or vengeance as Revelation makes clear, just that it is His battle, not ours
We are not electing a pope. We are electing a leader. Trump is a brilliant negotiator who accomplishes pretty much everything he attempts. EVs, women, youth, men, seniors, etc all supported him in SC. America wants to win. We want winners. Trump is a winner. It is not all about the borders folks. It is ALL ABOUT THE POCKETBOOK. A couple making 100G in CA pays over 35% in taxes right off the top. Not counting sales tax property tax energy tax etc. We live in a confiscatory system where most (yes majority) are takers and minority supports them. We could maybe live with that system (maybe) if the govt didn’t waste 15 cents on every dollar on over 450 federal agencies wasteful procurement etc.
Trump will run America like a corporation. He will fire the losers and hire winners. That’s why he will b the next president. My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!
Cookie – Trump has personal wealth, but along the way he has bankrupted several of his companies and takes advantage of the system to survive. He my friend is the taker.
Among his several company bankruptcies were a hotel, an airline a casino and a real estate investment enterprise (and others).
Donald Trump has had 4 personal bankruptcies.
When someone bankrupts, the “system” (that’s us) has to take their loss. So tell me again how throughout all of these bankruptcies he still remains a billionaire???
Do you not think that Trump has taken more than his fair share from this system? In dollars, I would imagine that Trump has taken more from the system over his lifetime than all the Guatemalan refugees in Orange County have combined in their lifetimes.
But in America, we all have our one vote to cast the way we see fit.
“My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!”
I know it’s in bad taste to bring this up, but as the master of bad taste on this blog – I think several family conversations have transpired with these words … including 1932 Germany.
MLD -yes it’s in bad taste and you’re a horses $$); for saying it
LOL – But hopefully it got your attention and will make you consider your words (and candidates) more closely.
MLD’s 73….perfect description of Trump.
It’s is not in bad taste to compare Hitler and Trump. Hitler was elected because of the same nativist pandering that Trump uses.
Maybe when I get home from church this afternoon I’ll compile a list of campaign similarities.
Nothing said in post 72 has anything in common with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
MLD get your facts straight. Donald Trump has NEVER filed for personal bankruptcy. He’s had 4 Chapter 11 reorganization bankruptcies which are common business practices. 3of the 4 were related to the casino business in Atlantic City which has bankrupted almost everyone. His businesses alone have created over 40000 jobs and just his 8 revitalization and rebuilding projects in NY alone ( Wollman Rink, 40 Wall St, Riverside South, etc.) have added billions to NY economy. Look you can dislike the man and you can try to discredit the man but if anyone wants to start comparing Trump to Hitler I hope this blog host would put a stop to such despicable nonsense
Xenia are we electing a pope of a president? Our govt is not responsible for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is not a theocracy
Thankfuls first paragraph hit it on the head…and the rest of the comment was wise as well.
What Trump does masterfully is hide the true complexity of all the issues we face so that it seems that a “strong man” could solve them.
Somehow, otherwise intelligent people buy into this.
Let me repost what Thankful said because it bears repeating;
“Well, I wouldn’t say it is so much to get rich as much as to set things right which can be viewed as maintaining power/returning to a more homogenous society in which an evangelical can feel comfortable rather than alienated (but being Pilgrims, this is a poor goal).”
1-this is not a repeat of 1932 … that’s still to come 🙂 history is cyclical
2-i’m pretty tired of the focus of this blog, making evangelicals the cause of the state of this nation …
3-the big players are trying to be all things to what they identify as the big voter blocks… if you look at their bait it is all, “I will solve YOUR problems, fulfill YOUR dreams – Let’s make America great again” … that doesn’t tell us much, no matter whose mouth it comes out of … today, even tho i agree with some of his promises, the one who scares me the most is Bernie Sanders… i won’t say what i see when i look at him as it would really cause some anger… and i don’t KNOW that what i think i see is what he is behind the smile, do i?
Cookie,
When any leader attributes to other ethnic groups the evil that Trump did to Mexicans and plans to deport them by the millions, the similarities to Hitlerian rhetoric are unavoidable.
The idea that one man can solve complex issues on his own by sheer will or force would also have evangelicals speaking about the anti-Christ if he was running as a Democrat.
Em,
Evangelicals have gone out of their way to become an identifiable voting bloc.
The exit polls I saw were asking people to self identify…and some of us have a hard time accepting that people with a Gospel base would vote for a man with such character.
People can vote for whoever they wish and they should…but they should abandon any pretense that the vote has anything to do with the faith once delivered to the saints.
While the Government is not responsible for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, As a Christian, I am responsible to follow it. And so are you.
My biggest concern is that all the rhetoric keeps us from looking at any issue in it’s totality and divides us even more.
I’ve debated internally whether to have these discussions at all because it’s so difficult to keep them civil.
Cookie, I assume that everything you said in your 72 are not only Trump’s ideals, but yours as well? Almost every statement you made can be countered by something Christ said in the Gospels. Doesn’t this bother you?
Xenia what are you talking about? 72 said nothing about ideals. The Gospel does not say we give everything to the govt to redistribute how it wishes. We have individual responsibility to help others. But I’ll b damned if I will allow govt to confiscate my property to redistribute. That’s socialism not the gospel. Show me how any statement I made can be countered by Christs words? I am responsible for the Gospel, yes. But that has nothing to do with who I select as my president. Are you saying you wouldn’t vote for a Jewish president? A Mormon president? Who’s the xenophobe?
“My husband and I and many of our friends have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the White House and we stop screwing around!
Cookie about Trump.”
“The trains WILL run on time.”
Mussoliini, Italian fascist and close ally of Hitler
Cookie,
The Gospels don’t speak of Christians as being “winners”.
They speak a great deal about being “losers” in the world to gain the kingdom.
For me, voting has to be congruent with my faith.
All of life has to be congruent with my faith.
Trumps ideals are not congruent with my faith.
Your mileage may vary.
MLD blows is it on getting his facts correct relating to trumps bk. The corporations filed bk, not trump personally. But I detect mld is a little snooty, relative to his comment. Trump employees thousands of people. There is alot not to like about trump. But at least don’t spread misinformation even though he is not a born again believer.
I’ve been driving a big rig professionally for 7 years. As such, I have witnessed some crazy antics on the road committed by both cars and big rigs, I was finally personally affected by it.
I was minding my business on I-5 S. through Sacramento a few weeks ago on a Saturday morning around 1100. I was in the #3 out of 4 lanes, 55 mph keeping it between the lines. In an instant I felt a thump at the rear passenger side of the trailer. I looked in the mirror and saw a car spinning clockwise away from under the trailer! Windshield smashed and a tire flying through the air.
I was unable to pull over immediately, however, did so where it was safe and called 911. I made a visual inspection of the trailer and saw damage to the aluminum side rail and damage to the end of a crossbeam.
They dispatched an officer to me who took the report. I discovered the other driver was uninjured and was relieved, however, it took almost a month for me to actually get my hands on the accident report.
It turns out the driver who hit me was a 20 year female. She admitted to driving at speeds of 90 to 100 mph, she was in a hurry to go “see her mother.” She was in the #2 lane and made an unsafe lane change behind me into the #4 lane.
The officer reported she was driving on “balding tires” on wet pavement. When she came around me one of her tires blew, she spun counter clockwise underneath the trailer, hit the hanger bracket on the front rear axle and was spun back out from the underside of the trailer.
Oh, I forgot to mention she was using a handheld device! Probably updating a selfie on her Facebook page…
Now, this accident will be listed on CSA as an accident that I was involved in and will also be listed on my own personal company authority with NO distinction of who was at fault! Only that another big rig was involved in a vehicular accident.
I hope the young lady had a come to Jesus movement. In addition, I hope they suspend her license for a year and get her off the road.
Cookie – “but if anyone wants to start comparing Trump to Hitler I hope this blog host would put a stop to such despicable nonsense”
My comment was not comparing Trump to Hitler at all – and I am surprised you made that leap. My comparison was to the comments you attributed to you, your husband and many of your friends to the exact same dinner table conversations going on in 1932 Germany to rationalize why Hitler was the right choice to settle and solve the problems at hand (also designated around “those people”).
As they said like you, in good German voice “have realized it’s time we got a hard nosed BOSS in the Reichstag building and we stop screwing around!
“There is alot not to like about trump. But at least don’t spread misinformation even though he is not a born again believer.”
What kind of believer is he?
How do you know?
Even if I misspoke on details of all of Trump’s BKs (and he has many) – see the link stating that Trumps companies have the most BKs of any company in the past 30 yrs. I want to know how that is going to translate into he knows how to run a government and a budget.
When a company BKs, even Ch 11 it’s reorganization is costing others as he negotiates pennies on the dollar at the same time no financial loss or pain on his part. He just passes on the cost to others … just as he accuses the South American immigrants – even call them illegal – but Trump has found the better way to work the system.
The fact that Cookie uses the term BOSS in all caps means that she has bought in to the reality star version of Trump. I’ll bet she thinks the Kardashians are true also.
the link
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/31/news/companies/donald-trump-bankruptcy/index.html
Trump isn’t as black and white as we think… his speeches are couched in the language that the guy digging the trench, the plumbing contractor, the heavy equipment operator and the engineer respect and these are the guys can’t find work in their trades and are family men/women and some go to church, call themselves evangelicals … there are more votes there than there are establishment votes and kids who can’t pay their student loans…
His track record, his conduct, is no better or worse than the other candidates IMV – The man is very smart, street savvy – both Main St. and Wall Street … however, his ability to run the nation would be all new territory and would depend on his ability to find rational advisors, his ability to listen to men way smarter than he is, so it is his ego that scares me most of anything that i’ve seen of him so far … however, if he comes out and says that he’ll appoint Carly Fiorina as Secretary of State, maybe he’ll get my vote 🙂
A hard-nosed BOSS is what we need…..
This is why people attend abusive churches. (One of the reasons.) They think “others” are getting away with stuff and they want a pastor who speaks his mind and tells it like it is. They cheer when a sinner gets disciplined by the church.
Until they are the sinner. Then they claim “abuse.”
Scott, I am glad you were not hurt.
Xenia, thanks 😉
“I hope the young lady had a come to Jesus movement. ” clearly Jesus was there – what a mercy…
i read somewhere that young people are waiting longer to get their driver’s licenses and yet are not very good drivers
#100 – amen … as Obama recently said the job of being President is harder than it looks
even God, Himself, cannot straighten this world out, so why would we think we can find a man to do it? … for quite some time now, we haven’t done much to even make things better and probably not for a lack of trying on the part of some good folks … here ‘n there
@Jean
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-on-god-i-dont-like-to-have-to-ask-for-forgiveness-2016-1
Can a unbeliever be born again if he hasn’t received forgiveness?
Hence, my belief is trump is as Christian as Obama. One major difference, I do believe trump is for strong America economically and military. Unlike Obama who wants to turn us into Sweden.
Josh the Beloved,
“Unlike Obama who wants to turn us into Sweden.”
Do you mean Sweden that has a very strong and vibrant economy or the Sweden that is not at war constantly for the past 100 yrs?
Sweden’s national debt = 43.97% of GDP
USA national debt = 104.68% of GDP — I think I will go with Obama’s plan instead of Trump’s
Since 1941 the US has either been preparing to go to war – at war – or coming out of war.
Sweden – the have ABBA
“Sweden – the have ABBA”
U.S. – highest incarceration rate in the world.
http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All&=Apply
I was speaking of the language of the left the other day…
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/21/great-news-new-google-extension-switches-pro-life-to-anti-choice/
Jean, so who is your candidate of choice the year?
I must also say that is strange that so many evangelicals are rallying to Trump. Yet, I believe many evangelicals also voted Obama into office too.
Scott,
Of all the remaining candidates, my choice would be Kasich.
Hillary all the way – just to prove that God is in control.
http://wheretoinvadenext.com/
One of the best, most inspiring films one can see if one loves The United States of America
the Declaration of Indepence was our forefather’s answer to having had a BOSS in charge.
In this country “the people” are supposed to be in charge, not some BOSS.
http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-perfection-of-gods-plumb-line.html
http://www.liberatenetwork.org/
Might be old news…
Ohmigosh! You folks are unbelievable. When I said we need a BOSS- i was referring to needing a high level corporate executive who could make the tough business decisions that America needs. Like letting bankrupt agencies go bankrupt. Like hiring qualified folks for high level jobs (not making former chief of staff head of CIA and Defense Secretary, e.g.). Like negotiating deals with opposition parties and opposition leaders. Like understanding basic economics nd not spending more money than you have.
Yet by using the word BOSS- i’m compared to people who attend abusive churches- I’m compared to Germans wishing for an Adolf Hitler- my Chrstian ideals and values are brought under question.
Gosh- the hypocrisy and the demagogery here is just unbelievable.
I’m the BOSS.
I thought Bruce Springsteen was the boss!
Cookie, your rebuke should be considered by all of us who post here… there is a tendency to grab a line and bend it to serve us in expressing our viewpoints… and your elaboration on “Boss” is sound thinking IMV… one thing most here do agree on – IMV – is that our national leadership is infested with politics, with comprising away all sound reasoning
“meet the new boss…. same as the old boss..”
Peter Townsend
Springsteen is the boss. I’m the BOSS.
I have not said anything hypocritical. You just don’t like what I said.
As far as demagoguery is concerned, Trump fits the definition perfectly.
dem·a·gogue
ˈdeməˌɡäɡ/
noun
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
synonyms: rabble-rouser, agitator, political agitator, soapbox orator, firebrand, fomenter, provocateur
“he was drawn into a circle of campus demagogues”
from my Apple dictionary:
“demagogue |ˈdeməˌgäg|
noun
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
• (in ancient Greece and Rome) a leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people.
…..”
it seems to me they’re all demagogues 🙂