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30 Responses

  1. Dallas says:

    I seem to remember (perhaps incorrectly) Michael suggesting a church history book on here in years past, but can’t remember what it was. Any recommendations?

  2. Michael says:

    Probably “The Story of Christianity” by Justo Gonzales.
    As always, I commend the church history classes of Dr. Frank James available on iTunes…

  3. John 20:29 says:

    Google wished me a happy birthday this morning – they’re 3 mos late 😉 … but it’s nice to get wished happiness, eh?

    but it does remind me that we get way too wrapped up in internet’s illusory reality… except for here where the focus is on man’s place in eternity … and that’s a big reality

  4. Michael says:

    There was a day when I believed that the internet would be the greatest tool for good in history…that day is not today.

  5. Em ... again says:

    God uses everything… IMHO
    but i do get the feeling that my great grandchildren will be intellectually deprived victims of a new kind of serfdom in a new kind of feudalism … dunno, tho, do i? 🙂

    am i correct that young people today cannot write cursive? well, at least they can read, so pass your library down in the family like it was the coin of the realm – it may be – if the internet shuts down… be assured that there are many ways to accomplish that feat

  6. Dallas says:

    Thanks Michael, I might have to renew my fight with iTunes over that one.

    Em, I can write cursive but probably haven’t in 15 years, I type every day but as much as I have tried to teach myself to do it properly, I can’t overcome having taught myself through hunt and peck as a kid. All that to say that I support getting rid of cursive in favor of early typing classes… that and I have always hated cursive.

  7. Michael says:

    Trey could type before he could write in cursive…it’s neither taught or expected.
    I now wish I could have afforded hardbacks instead of ebooks…

  8. Michael says:

    Dallas,

    It’s under Reformed Theological Seminary..there are two different classes, Church History 1&2.
    He’s simply the best.

  9. Dallas says:

    I found it, I just have long been annoyed with iTunes having not invested in the Apple environment. The last time I had iTunes on my PC it at least to me seemed like an oversized and intrusive program that I couldn’t get rid of quick enough. I will probably give in this time though.

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    “am i correct that young people today cannot write cursive? ”

    I cannot write cursive at all except to sign my name – and I can only do it with my middle initial and then it is unreadable.

    I used to do cursivewith an ink pen (the kind you dip in the ink and make the bold curves) when I schooled in a French school for 3 yrs as a kid.

    I have not written cursive since 7th grade – my wife writes perfect beautiful cursive and I can’t read it. 🙂

  11. Babylon's Dread says:

    I pretty much know the response but still I am going to take note of the passing of C Peter Wagner. He is credited and discredited with much. I did not follow him closely in his latter years but I know the genesis of the so called New Apostolic Reformation and it is not sinister or even particularly troubling.

    Pete was just a farmer who became a missiologist and an expert on church growth who encountered the gifts of the Holy Spirit via John Wimber.

    He was a prolific author, and a pioneer of educational innovation.

    I was in his first class on the New Apostolic Reformation. It was simply a set of observations that he made about the kind of leaders who were rising in non-denominational movements. He isolated a dozen or so characteristics of their ministries. That came from his analytical approach to church growth.

    The NAR leaders included Smith, Wimber, Hybels, and a whole cadre of luminaries in mega-church work of the 70s 80s and 90s … To be sure there arose a focus on the ongoing presence of the gift of apostleship in the church. To be sure there have been some strangel and failed attempts to form coalitions. For the most part they have not worked well. IMO.

    Nevertheless Pete Wagner is as luminous a figure in the last 50 years as Chuck Smith or Wimber themselves. His influence at its zenith was probably as high as Franklin Graham.

    You might remember that Pete started the World Prayer Center and played a significant role in the prayer movement leading up to AD 2000.

    His forays into spiritual mapping and some of his more unusual analysis caused him to have a break in relationship with Wimber and pretty much marginalized him in his latter years as he became involved with more radical ideas and people.

    I cannot forget his attempt to bring order into the Todd Bentley fiasco. His attempt brought the whole matter under a brighter light and showed the immaturity and unpreparedness of the ‘apostolic’ movement. I told him as much and he reproved me.

    I also cannot forget in unplayable debt that I owe him. He was a childlike lover of Jesus who opened a way for skeptics like me to taste and see the goodness of God. I will forever honor this man and his work.

  12. EricL says:

    BD, I have many books in my collection from Wagner that he wrote in the 80s and early 90s, when his focus was on church growth and signs and wonders. I respect that season of his life. I think your assessment of his significance during those years is accurate; it was on par with the influence Franklin has now.

    I lost track of Wagner after the mid 90s, but what I’ve read about his views on NAR, territorial demons and spiritual mapping. It seemed he fell under the sway of some wobbly beliefs in his later years. Sad, that.

  13. Babylon's Dread says:

    Eric,

    For Wagner it was not as weird as you might think. He was a man of boundless curiosity and a desire to learn. If one reads his little commentary on Acts, which I think is profound, you will understand his view of things like spiritual mapping.

    For Wagner it was all about how to glean the greatest harvest. It was not weird charismania though his work was fodder for the craziest people.

  14. Potatoehead says:

    Wagner’s analysis of scripture concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit and operation of them is one of the best available.

    His latter years work is questionable.

    He lost a lot of credibility when he associated with Todd Bently.

    Too bad because he was a trail blazer into uncharted areas.

    He pushed the envelope in a sense.

    Paul said, “I want to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended for.”

    I think Wagner was the same way.

  15. Potatoehead says:

    How cool that God has had you around some of his most active servants BD!

    In fact how cool we have you here.

    You pack a lot of invested wisdom orchestrated by God in His plans and purposes.

    I can’t help but sense that you have a great destiny in the Lord every time I see your moniker here.

    It is like the bow has been pulled back by the Holy Spirit and yet to be released.

    I for one certainly will be following you to see what comes of it.

    Dude your time is gonna come soon enough.

  16. Babylon's Dread says:

    Wow Potatohead

    I did not expect that one… gracias.

    As for Wagner and Bentley … I do understand what he was doing. He saw Bentley as out of order and needing apostolic alignment. (fancy name for fathering) He orchestrated the big Bentley night of impartation in 2008 to bring alignment. He did not see himself as particularly approving of Todd. He was very careful in his steps. He wanted Todd to be under the authority of Bill Johnson and others to have a group to answer to. He wanted Todd to become more humble. The night reversed that and it became a power grab of unprecedented madness in our movement as Todd attempted to make himself look like the preeminent figure.

    I saw Pete orchestrate his way out of that part of it. It was subtle but profoundly clear. Pete attempted to step back and give it over to the others. However, none of them knew about Todd’s miscreant secrets. Neither did they expose them or that night would never have happened. In the end however, Todd was humbled by his own failure and the matter was exposed.

    My affections for Pete will not allow me to be too hard on him. I know enough to know that things are more nuanced than they appear.

    But I thank you for your kind remarks and good will.

  17. Em ... again says:

    hmmm… is BD an arrow or a rock? … dunno, but i agree with potatoehead that his faith greatly blesses those of us, who read him here

    #11& 16 – FWIW and from where i sit – looking back – there are so many who have enriched the Church and blessed God with their strong, if not perfect declarations… it is on us to be prayerful and discerning…

  18. Potatoehead says:

    Not just kind remarks or good will BD.

    It is my years of personal experience in the Lord.

    Lets just say prophetically I see that you have been groomed by Holy Spirit for a position within the Body of Christ that holds influence over many.

    To you it may have seemed like a long distant dream that happened so long ago that you may have carefully allowed it to dim and lay undisturbed.

    But what was Paul’s wisdom on such things.

    Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

    He was letting young Timothy know that he had a part to play.

    Your very gifted.

    You have a drive to know and to understand.

    You have been sharpened and straightened and pulled back for release.

    To make sense of that in a natural way, you have prophecy spoken over your life.

    You bear witness as the same prophecies come through different servants of God to you.

    But it would seem as if nothing really happens, the pull back of the bow action.

    Get ready for when the release does come it will come so fast!

    And doors will automatically be opened that apparently were closed before.

    This is how it always is.

    The pull back of the bow for timing and aiming always seems as if nothing is ever going to happen.

    And then suddenly it does!

    Be ready and watch.

  19. Potatoehead says:

    Em,

    The rock analogy is just as pertinent.

    Being swung round and round seeming to get no where, when suddenly the release of the sling and we are on our way …

    Young David picked up three stones, one for Goliath and the others for Goliath’s brothers.

    There is a conclusion there but that is not my realm…LOL

  20. dusty says:

    Standing in agreement with potatohead and em about dixie dread. Mighty things ahead…

  21. Potatoehead says:

    Thanks for confirmation Dusty.

    BD needs to be encouraged by the Body of Believers.

    He has such a good heart for God’s people.

    And he is so chock full of God’s gifting in Christ.

    As leaders are taken home others who have been groomed will indeed step up to fill the gaps.

    Guys like Michael and BD are hidden gems in the Body as I know you already know.

  22. dusty says:

    They are as you say, potatohead, gems. Yet t&he y do not see it nor feel it. I pray for them often. As i pray for you often

  23. Tracey says:

    BD

    I am glad your experience with Wagner was positive. In my opinion, he did not end well. I have seen his organization up close and it is not good.

    He was right in the mix the night of Todd Bentley’s commissioning and prophesied over him. You can watch it on YouTube. His letter back pedaling after the fiasco was a new low. His integrity was compromised at that point.

    My church was severely damaged by Wagner and several of his key leaders.

  24. Potatoehead says:

    The man of God dares to make mistakes.

    Often stepping out in faith.

    We hold this which is of God within broken leaky clay vessels.

    We are but the work of a potter’s hands.

    Wagner stepped out on the limb and it broke…

    The plum line of the Word of God keeps all of us from making the same mistakes if we study it and pay attention to it.

    If we don’t we harm ourselves and others as has happened to Tracey’s church.

    All of which could have been avoided had the men of God dwelt according to wisdom, knowledge and understanding from the Word.

    Once stumbled, the sheep will wander, until a true shepherd appears to them and draws them in with many loving kindnesses.

    Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is there no healing for the wound of my people?

    The Lord looks down from heaven and relentlessly chases after the wounded with a passion, pursuing them with His great love for them.

    Healing them with the Balm of Gilead.

  25. Potatoehead says:

    The Lord is near to the broken hearted, and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
    Psalm 34:18

  26. Potatoehead says:
  27. Em ... again says:

    #19 – i was thinking of a bigger rock 🙂 i don’t think i’d want anyone throwing BD at me; he’s a good sized fella, is he not?… now you’ve got me thinking about the symbology of the rocks that David used… hmmm
    the prophesy is an interesting one…

  28. Babylon's Dread says:

    Tracey,

    I watched every minute of the Bentley coronation. It was egregious but I knew what Pete was up to so I give him the benefit of doubt. When Bentley turned from receiving to giving and pushed all the men to the ground Wagner backed away quietly and did not participate. He did spin the matter in his rehash. They all did except Stacey Campbell who owned the mistake.

    But I will give you the point of view you express. I have no doubt that people in his influence could be difficult.

  29. Nonnie says:

    “We are part of a violent, dark, chaotic world. In the measure that His peaceful kingdom comes within us, the darkness and chaos of the world diminishes.”
    Ruth Burrows

  30. Em ... again says:

    Nonnie, you posted a strong, vital truth … amen, God help me to focus on Your kingdom

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