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32 Responses

  1. Dan from Georgia says:

    Evangelicals just love copying the world.

  2. JoelG says:

    I wonder if there’s a cover charge to get in?

  3. Duane Arnold says:

    “Evangelicals just love copying the world.”… Because creativity deserted most churches a long time ago…

  4. Dan from Georgia says:


    He he….

    Free glowsticks available in the foyer! Worship tonight will start at 10pm and continue til sunrise!

  5. Dan from Georgia says:

    All too true Duane!

  6. Jean says:

    From Martin Luther:

    “Grace and peace – these two words embrace the whole of Christianity. Grace forgives sin, and peace stills the conscience. The two devils who plague us are sin and conscience, the power of the Law and the sting of sin (1 Cor. 15:56). But Christ has conquered these two monsters and trodden them underfoot, both in this age and in the age to come. The world does not know this; therefore it cannot teach anything sure about how to overcome sin, conscience, and death. Only Christians have this kind of teaching and are equipped and armed with it, so that they can overcome sin, despair, and eternal death. It is a teaching that is given only by God; it does not proceed from free will, nor was it invented by human reason or wisdom.

    These two words, “grace” and “peace,” contain a summary of all of Christianity. Grace contains the forgiveness of sins, a joyful peace, and a quiet conscience. But peace is impossible unless sin has first been forgiven, for the Law accuses and terrifies the conscience on account of sin. And the sin that the conscience feels cannot be removed by pilgrimages, vigils, labors, efforts, vows, or any other works; in fact, sin is increased by works. The more we work and sweat to extricate ourselves from sin, the worse off we are. For there is no way to remove sin except by grace…. Because the world does not understand this doctrine, it neither can nor will tolerate it. It brags about free will, about our powers, about our works – all these as means by which to earn and attain grace and peace, that is, the forgiveness of sins and a joyful conscience. But the conscience cannot be quiet and joyful unless it has peace through this grace, that is, through the forgiveness of sins promised in Christ…. Therefore, your bones and mine will know no rest until we hear the Word of grace and cling to it firmly and faithfully.”

  7. em... again says:

    cover charge? i’ll bet there’s bouncers to keep fundy Christians out 🙂
    who knows? maybe the end result will be a population of Christians in, say 20 years, who wonder what the heck were we thinking of back then?
    i lived out my formative years with the nation coming off of a depression into a world war that threatened to invade and folks then were pretty serious about life… and death… so i don’t know just how to judge the outcome of today’s trends… i do know that most folk under 50 seem to be … childish … kind of like Luke 7:31-32 … kind of …

    on the other hand, if the power grid goes down – and it could – then i will consider that we’ve brought God’s judgement down on ourselves… dunno… the world is all a ponder today

    i watched a TV episode set in a hospital last night… involving the tenants of Jehovah’s Witness… it culminated with the JW in the hospital chapel praying, a nurse coming in to update the man that it wasn’t good for his granddaughter – the JW asked him are you a Christian? the answer i was brought up Baptist… to which the man said, “Will you pray with me?” the scene then expanded to include who’d been watching this emergency play out coming into the chapel and joining the prayer, the focus on one who made the sign of the cross…
    my point? i was surprised to see Christianity given a positive spin on a major network

  8. Erunner says:

    #1 Dan

    I would qulify your statement by stating “some Evangelicals.”

  9. JD says:

    We left out the fog machines and the light shows, and the worship leaders’ choice of the latest pop songs. 😕

  10. Dan from Georgia says:

    Yes, some. I qualify as an evangelical (spirit of full disclosure here)

  11. JoelG says:

    I wonder if there’s ever been a time in church history that the church has used marketing to a culture to preach the Gospel.

    It seems like preaching forgiveness of sins to thirsty souls by grace through faith in Christ should market itself.

  12. Erunner says:

    Dan @ 10….. I’m not sure what I am these days! 🙂 Probably pretty close to you though.

  13. DavidM says:

    Here are a couple of very non-important questions, but I’m asking out of curiosity:

    When writing, do you capitalize the divine? Why or why not? Is it necessary?

    When praying publicly, do you end your prayer with “In Jesus’ name”? Why or why not? Is it necessary?

  14. Michael says:

    I always capitalize the divine…it shows respect and differentiates it from other pronouns.
    Probably not necessary, but I still do it.

    The only time I pray publicly is the liturgy…haven’t thought about it much.

  15. Duane Arnold says:

    #13 David

    I tend to capitalize the divine, simply because in a compound sentence involving say, God and a man, it helps to identify “He” from ‘he”. In style manuals, it is considered archaic by some, but then, so am I.

    In public prayer, I tend to use, “In Christ’s name” or, more frequently, “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, usually while crossing myself (wouldn’t try the latter in evangelical circles!) In the liturgy, I was also taught (and this is what I teach others) to bow my head at the name of “Jesus”. This is considered old fashioned by some, but then again, so am I.

  16. Dan from Georgia says:

    Erunner (12)…I may be in the same boat as well…I consider myself Evangelical, but have soured a bit on that label.

    Just for clarification and further full disclosure…it may have came across that way, but I am not entirely critical of Evangelicals co-opting the methods of the world. I was born (again) in the late 80s when there was a wave of music that came out of the church that mimicked the world (metal and rap specifically), and I jumped in headlong into the scene, buying the tapes and CD’s, going to the concerts, buying the t-shirts. It must be my age that caused me to find it a bit weird that EDM was being employed in worship settings.

  17. JoelG says:

    Speaking of church music and creativity…

    The magic starts at 40 seconds…

  18. Erunner says:

    Dan@ 16

    I have chosen to simply refer to myself as a Christian. Simple and to the point.

    I came to faith in 1976 at a Saturday night concert in Costa Mesa and attended there for about two years.

    The music impacted me deeply as I had only heard hymns which I wasn’t fond of in those days. I thought the music was good and professionally done. So I jumped in immediately. Keith Green, Larry Norman, Maranatha Praise and other artists of that time.

    I imagine no matter what the music was that sprang out of those years had to be something similar to what the world offered.

    I believe what I experienced at the time of my salvation was probably the tail end of what was a genuine move of God where many came to faith.

    Being in my 60’s now I enjoy a wide variety of music; Christian and secular. Full disclosure here…… I detest rap in any form and never really got into Christian metal although I’m sure there’s some genuine believers in those genres.

  19. John 20:29 says:

    had to smile rereading my #7 … tenets, not tenants… don’t think i’d want to be a tenant of a JW, all things considered

    our river valley is in mourning for a wife and mother killed by a drunk driver this week – gruesome head on collision … on this two land road with a river on one side and mostly embankment on the other, there’s nowhere to go… if you’re inclined to do so, pray for the husband and the two children
    it could have been my daughter as the hospital asked her to come in early, but she couldn’t… gives one pause and a feeling of guilt for being relieved, but i thank God nevertheless

  20. DavidM says:

    #15 Duane, right, the second question would more than likely apply to Evangelicals.

  21. Dan from Georgia says:

    Erunner (#18)…that’s cool! I still have several Maranatha! Praise tapes and a Larry Norman tape. Tapes!

    Yeah, there were/are some genuine believers in the bands I listened to. As with most (all?) believers, some of them had their foibles/quirks. It’s sad that a few individuals in the Christian metal scene, for instance, had well-publicized (at least to those in the loop of all things Christian metal) falling away’s – Roger Martinez of Vengeance Rising comes to mind. But I also know that some of these musicians were truly saved and on fire for the Lord.

    The Christian Rap scene in the late 80s was weird. Much of the lyrics were fun-oriented, much like in the world (before the cop-killing, gang-banging rap of the 90s came about), but some of the artists went full-bore into the “let’s rap against Satan” vein, which seemed kind of arrogant and got kind of old. The most peculiar event in the Christian rap scene was when fellow believer D-Boy Rodriguez was shot and killed outside his apartment at night following a date. Funny (or prophetic?), on his second and last album, he had an anti-gang song on it, and the last line of the song was “I was born in this barrio, and I will die like a gangster”.

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “When writing, do you capitalize the divine? Why or why not? Is it necessary?”
    I usually do not as it usually is not necessary. However, I will if I am comparing God to other gods in the same writing.

    “When praying publicly, do you end your prayer with “In Jesus’ name”? Why or why not? Is it necessary?”
    I used to until I realized that is not what Jesus meant. Think about it, do you say “in Jesus’ name” at the end of the lord’s prayer?

    I do cross myself – especially around evangelicals so that they may express their legalism to me. 😉

  23. Erunner says:

    Dan @ 21…… Sadly artists from all genres of Christian music have fallen by the wayside. Like most here I’m not really surprised when believers in the public eye end up having what amounts to a public fall. Imagine if our sins were covered by the media.

    I know a lot of folks like(d) Christian metal but it’s really not my style. The rock I like is all secular. I’m sure there’s tons of genuine metal band individuals out there and I’m not surprised that any may have fallen away. It’s sad when anyone does.

    I know zilch about Christian rap and the story you shared is tragic. I actually saw a Christian rapper at CCCM ages ago and all I remember was waiting for it to end! 🙂

    I’m still trying to figure out Bob Dylan!! 🙂 God bless!!

  24. DavidM says:

    #23 Erunner, I simply cannot listen to comtemporary Christian music. It is largely vapid, devoid of depth and creativity.

    But, you mentioned Dylan. When he came out with Slow Train Coming in 1979, I was astounded and inspired. I thought that he had to have encountered Jesus as his savior. His songs were brilliant. I wore the album out! Then came the follow-up, Saved. Highly evangelistic but again inspiring. There was little subtlety in his message. Not nearly as creative as Slow Train, but I loved In the Garden. It was beautifully haunting to me.
    But, then, that was the end of it all. I haven’t followed him and I wonder what he would say about his Christian “phase” upon reflection. He is always a bit of an enigma.
    At that time I believe he had some connection to a Vineyard church in the Valley but not certain.

  25. The New Victor says:

    My daughter, 5, it’s obsessed with listening to KLOVE. In the car, it’s, “I WANT KLOVE!”

    Most of the time I give in. Sometimes I’ll comment that I like a certain song, and she’ll say, “but I thought you liked rock and roll?” I do really like maybe 20% of the songs.

    Today, coincidentally, a song came on that sounded a little electronics. D5 pipes up from the back seat, “is this KLOVE?” Not my genre, but I do like a few David Guetta songs (a DJ-song writer who recruits popular artists as vocalists for the elder crowd here).

    So what about the classic hymns? Weren’t they composed many centuries, some over a millennium later, after The Church was established? Why be stuck in time, an arbitrary time over a thousand years after The Lord left the earth?

    That being said, I do mind of cringe at what I perceive to be the carnality of worship through Electronica. How much of it is the Angry Old Man syndrome, and how much of it is valid concern or criticism? Cue a Dana Carvey skit…

  26. Dan from Georgia says:

    Erunner (#23)..God’s blessings to you too! I’m not into rap anymore. The old school Christian rap from the late 80s was fun, but ever since seems to have darkened. I am into metal and rock, along with some electronic music, and admittedly all of that mainly from the secular side of things. Of all the “Christian” music out there, praise and worship is still my favorite genre. Still have loads of Maranatha!, Vineyard, and some Hillsong tapes/CD’s.

    In regards to CCM in general, as talked about by DavidM and The New Victor (#24 and 25), I could pile on. Admittedly there are very VERY few CCM musicians I actually enjoy, and the one’s I appreciate and enjoy are in my heart because they are original (style-wise) and their lyrics are deep and though-provoking, which is missing in most CCM. My all time favorite CCM artists are the late Rich Mullins and Nicole Nordeman, and everyone else runs way back in the pack.

    The whole Bob Dylan (you could throw in BJ Thomas in there as well) is a bit before my time, but I do remember when Leslie Phillips said goodbye to CCM and changed her name to Sam Phillips.

  27. Dan from Georgia says:

    Oh, and have a great weekend everyone! Nice chatting with you Erunner!

  28. em... again says:

    reading as the elder elder here and one of the few pew sitters who comment, i just can’t worship with contemporary music (anything past 1970 LOL ) … so it’s all greek to me
    i do believe that one’s choice in music is driven by environment… could be wrong – dunno
    i did like to turn on rock and roll back in the day when i drove in heavy traffic, but my driving now is accompanied by a group of priests singing acappella 🙂

  29. Erunner says:

    David M @ 24 I well remember when the Christian world embraced Dylan. It was quite the get! As he was already one of my favorites I was quite happy and enjoyed his Christian phase. I believe it was Keith Green who worked with him. Having read interviews it’s always hard for me to figure him out. He was one of a kind.

    The New Victor @ 25 I don’t listen to Christian music stations although I have enjoyed some of the K-Love videos on youtube. I’ve come to enjoy the hymns as well. It’s going to be interesting to see where your little girl goes as time goes on. I think it’s fine she enjoys K-Love she could do worse! 🙂

    David M @ 26 Praise & worship is where I’ve sorta parked these last several years. Leslie Philips I’ve heard of but not familiar with her music. Thanks for the chat!!

    em@ 28 1970!!?? 🙂 YIKES!!! Our music choices are driven by so many things but it’s nice there’s much to choose from. What one person loves I can’t tolerate. What I love others can’t tolerate, etc. The bottom line is how does God receive all of this music? What many see as shallow, etc. may have come from a pure motivation while we don’t care for it and some might rail against it God may receive it with open arms so to speak.

    I’ll have to find some acappela priests! 🙂 Thanks to each for your input and God bless!!

  30. Owen says:

    I’m late to the party, but I’ll chip in anyway…

    Jean, good words.

    “These two words, “grace” and “peace,” contain a summary of all of Christianity.”

    ……. and I’ve always loved that Paul starts his letters with “grace and peace to you”.

  31. Surfer51 says:

    In Oregon, a state known for its avid bicycling culture, the state legislature’s approval of the first bike tax in the nation has fallen flat with riders. Democratic Gov. Kate Brown is expected to sign the sweeping $5.3 billion transportation package, which includes a $15 excise tax on the sale of bicycles costing more than $200 with a wheel diameter of at least 26 inches. Even though the funding has been earmarked for improvements that will benefit cyclists, the tax has managed to irk both anti-tax Republicans and environmentally conscious bikers. The bike tax is aimed at raising $1.2 million per year in order to improve and expand paths and trails for bicyclists and pedestrians. Supporters point out that Oregon has no sales tax, which means buyers won’t be dinged twice for their new wheels.

  32. em... again says:

    Surfer, hope you’re doing okay – prayer continues for you and yours

    in my far distant youth, we had to have/buy bicycle licenses – miniature versions of car licenses, they hung from our seats… well… that’s not quite right…
    they were attached to the seat of the bicycle

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