Then you must make an exception for many of the doctrinal views you hold as dispensationalism and the pre trib Rapture theory are “new” in terms of historic Christianity…
And the then through persistence, the new becomes orthodox. My statement on nothing being new is more theoretical than practical. Like, God new it, be we didn’t know it…yet.
Practically, yes it looks like new doctrine developing over long periods of time.
interesting chain of comments… i have no problem with someone parking their trust in the Faith solely with the early Church dogma – certainly distills out all the half baked and heretical egoists that creep in…
yet, the canon as we have it, from Genesis to Revelation is, IMHO, chock full of jewels that enrich and enlarge one’s understanding of God and His plan, let alone our understanding of how needy we are and how much we have that we don’t internalize in and of Christ…
humility and grace can make a plain man a force to be reckoned with in his time in this world… strange combination…
“Theology is like a map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God–experiences compared with which many thrills of pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further you must use the map.”
Just for me, things from the Bible get simpler the older I get. Less need for explanation. Like many here, I have had my own forays and “adventures” in doctrine. It just keeps getting simpler. I am not boasting about that, either.
In some way all believers are theologians, just not necessarily very good ones.
We all develop a doctrine of God and doctrines around that one.
“Professional” theologians do the hard work for the rest of us and give us historical and textual tools by which we examine those doctrines to see how they stand up to Scripture, tradition, and reason.
Orthodoxy as we understand it is the result of courageous theologians…
Theologians are like wilderness guides showing us the way through unfamiliar territory.
When I was young I was in the Assemblies of God/CC tradition and there were guides who took me as far as they could go.
I moved on to the Reformed tradition and new guides were required for that territory.
Now, I’m at rest in the Anglican church, but there are whole new territories and new guides to help me explore and grow in the grace and knowledge of God.
It’s a life long journey and I’m grateful for guides…
“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.”
By the way, in the older catholic tradition, “name days” were as important as birthdays. (A name day being the feast day of the saint that you were named after…)
So, Michael – on the Feast of St. Michael and All Angels (Michaelmas) – Happy Name Day!
I agree with #1 with a caveat that they should be free from “being called” that by man, but at the same time they should squirm in their pants in utter fear of “being called” that by God.
I guess it doesn’t matter much as to the particulars people believe theologically…
if it’s possible people can apostatize, when can we point to a particular person and say they HAVE? They MAY HAVE?
Today is the holiest day on the calendar of the dominant religion among men in the SW half of Australia. It is the AFL Grand Final. The football accounted for 33 pages out of 96 in yesterday’s paper and 28 out of 88 today.
In Remembrance of Jerome, Translator of Holy Scripture
“Jerome was born in a little village on the Adriatic Sea around AD 345. At a young age, he went to study in Rome, where he was baptized. After extensive travels, he chose the life of a monk and spent five years in the Syrian Desert. There he learned Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament. After ordination at Antioch and visits to Rome and Constantinople, Jerome settled in Bethlehem. From the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, he used his ability with languages to translate the Bible into Latin, the common language of his time. This translation, called the Vulgate, was the authoritative version of the Bible in the Western Church for more than a thousand years. Considered one of the great scholars of the Early Church, Jerome died on September 30, 420. He was originally interred at Bethlehem, but his remains were eventually taken to Rome.”
– Treasury of Daily Prayer (Ed. Scot A. Kinnaman, CPH, 2008), p.771
scriptures used in his teaching on humility (which we ponder from time to time here) – from the late Bob Hoekstra:
“The Scriptures emphasize the Lord’s commitment to pour out grace upon those who walk in humility, while opposing the path of those who walk in pride. “But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’…Be clothed with humility, for ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’… Though the LORD is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar” ( James 4:6 ; 1 Peter 5:5 ; and Psalm 138:6 ). In our present verse we have another pointed example. “Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.”
we can’t keep the 10 commandments, but we can measure our righteousness by them and by how we reverence them? if those 10 teachings don’t humble one, one is either proud or in denial or both
I have a question for you. Awhile back, you used to have an ad up in the top right corner, had to do with publishing. Do you still have contact information for that person? I seem to remember you saying that person was a regular here……. asking because I may have someone who would like to use his services.
One of the widows in our church would like to publish her late husband’s book (he didn’t get to it before he passed), so I’ll refer her to Eric’s site.
It’s all yours today…
For a theologian to be useful, he has to free himself from the fear of being called a heretic.
….and if it is true, it is not new. If it is new, it is not true. 🙂
Completely agree with #1… completely disagree with #2…
I so agree with number 2. 🙂
I actually agree with # 2, but that doesn’t mean that the original, ancient truth has been discovered or understood just yet.
Then you must make an exception for many of the doctrinal views you hold as dispensationalism and the pre trib Rapture theory are “new” in terms of historic Christianity…
Who, me?
If I were to say dispensationalism is “THE” truth, I would say that it isn’t new, just undiscovered until the last 200 years.
I hold to dispensationalism and pre-trib?
Four words – “The Development of Doctrine”…
# 10 – Yes.
Josh,
Everyone who discovers something “new” would say the same thing.
As Duane noted, doctrine develops over time…
I do agree that “doctrine develops over time.”
Also worth noting, “I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning.” 1 John 2:7
12 – Yes, we agree.
And the then through persistence, the new becomes orthodox. My statement on nothing being new is more theoretical than practical. Like, God new it, be we didn’t know it…yet.
Practically, yes it looks like new doctrine developing over long periods of time.
Costco, are you then against all books that aren’t the bible?
Not at all. Neither am I saying all books are the equal to the Bible.
interesting chain of comments… i have no problem with someone parking their trust in the Faith solely with the early Church dogma – certainly distills out all the half baked and heretical egoists that creep in…
yet, the canon as we have it, from Genesis to Revelation is, IMHO, chock full of jewels that enrich and enlarge one’s understanding of God and His plan, let alone our understanding of how needy we are and how much we have that we don’t internalize in and of Christ…
humility and grace can make a plain man a force to be reckoned with in his time in this world… strange combination…
So then, are you rationalizing, like me, and saying “IT wasn’t new, we just hadn’t discovered it yet”?
Just quoting the Apostle John, John the Baptist. 🙂
“….and if it is true, it is not new. If it is new, it is not true.”
I doubt that’s a direct quote, but anyhow…
Do you see a use in theologians, other than just redistributing what is already known?
(I’m asking to get your understanding, not to defeat you.)
Apostle John quote was 1 John 2:8, which I quoted above.
I do see use for theologians. Though, to be honest, very much less the older I get.
What use is a theologian?
“Theology is like a map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God–experiences compared with which many thrills of pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further you must use the map.”
C.S. Lewis
Just for me, things from the Bible get simpler the older I get. Less need for explanation. Like many here, I have had my own forays and “adventures” in doctrine. It just keeps getting simpler. I am not boasting about that, either.
Not a bad thing.
At this point, it works for me.
Duane,
Love that quote.
Theologians are critical to the health of the church…
“Theologians are critical to the health of the church…”
Could you expand on that, just a little?
Josh,
In some way all believers are theologians, just not necessarily very good ones.
We all develop a doctrine of God and doctrines around that one.
“Professional” theologians do the hard work for the rest of us and give us historical and textual tools by which we examine those doctrines to see how they stand up to Scripture, tradition, and reason.
Orthodoxy as we understand it is the result of courageous theologians…
“Orthodoxy as we understand it is the result of courageous theologians…”
Wow, that’s a good quote. So true!
Sometimes the “courageous theologians” just might be the ones who stick to the “old” yet foundational truths.
Theologians are like wilderness guides showing us the way through unfamiliar territory.
When I was young I was in the Assemblies of God/CC tradition and there were guides who took me as far as they could go.
I moved on to the Reformed tradition and new guides were required for that territory.
Now, I’m at rest in the Anglican church, but there are whole new territories and new guides to help me explore and grow in the grace and knowledge of God.
It’s a life long journey and I’m grateful for guides…
“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.”
#31
John Keble, after hearing John Henry Newman preach, only gave him one piece of advice – “Don’t be original”…
When I talk to my friends, I try to tell them, “Normal works, preaching is not a competitive activity”.
By the way, in the older catholic tradition, “name days” were as important as birthdays. (A name day being the feast day of the saint that you were named after…)
So, Michael – on the Feast of St. Michael and All Angels (Michaelmas) – Happy Name Day!
Duane,
Thank you…that is who I was named after. 🙂
Should we start calling you Michaelmas? If so, I will need change it in my contacts 🙂
Covered,
I’ve been called worse… 🙂
I agree with #1 with a caveat that they should be free from “being called” that by man, but at the same time they should squirm in their pants in utter fear of “being called” that by God.
I have a question for Calvinists or Reformed friends here:
Have you ever heard someone in your camp identify a particular person as specifically someone who was NOT one of the elect?
I had a crazy interactive with a Calvinist that left me scratching my head…
With answers, I’ll likely spill some beans…
Thanks in advance!
~James Tiberius Kirk
I guess it doesn’t matter much as to the particulars people believe theologically…
if it’s possible people can apostatize, when can we point to a particular person and say they HAVE? They MAY HAVE?
JTK,
It is a Reformed teaching that we do not know who the elect are, so we preach the Gospel promiscuously.
Having said that, there are always radicals who say that anyone outside their narrow group is reprobate…
Today is the holiest day on the calendar of the dominant religion among men in the SW half of Australia. It is the AFL Grand Final. The football accounted for 33 pages out of 96 in yesterday’s paper and 28 out of 88 today.
In Remembrance of Jerome, Translator of Holy Scripture
“Jerome was born in a little village on the Adriatic Sea around AD 345. At a young age, he went to study in Rome, where he was baptized. After extensive travels, he chose the life of a monk and spent five years in the Syrian Desert. There he learned Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament. After ordination at Antioch and visits to Rome and Constantinople, Jerome settled in Bethlehem. From the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, he used his ability with languages to translate the Bible into Latin, the common language of his time. This translation, called the Vulgate, was the authoritative version of the Bible in the Western Church for more than a thousand years. Considered one of the great scholars of the Early Church, Jerome died on September 30, 420. He was originally interred at Bethlehem, but his remains were eventually taken to Rome.”
– Treasury of Daily Prayer (Ed. Scot A. Kinnaman, CPH, 2008), p.771
Thanks.
It’s the first time I’ve run into someone who said I was spiritually unable to realize how wrong I was.
It was condemnation in action.
I’ve never seen anything like it.
JTK,
That’s one of the reasons I left that clan and joined the Anglicans.
What a jerk
scriptures used in his teaching on humility (which we ponder from time to time here) – from the late Bob Hoekstra:
“The Scriptures emphasize the Lord’s commitment to pour out grace upon those who walk in humility, while opposing the path of those who walk in pride. “But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’…Be clothed with humility, for ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’… Though the LORD is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar” ( James 4:6 ; 1 Peter 5:5 ; and Psalm 138:6 ). In our present verse we have another pointed example. “Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.”
we can’t keep the 10 commandments, but we can measure our righteousness by them and by how we reverence them? if those 10 teachings don’t humble one, one is either proud or in denial or both
Michael,
I have a question for you. Awhile back, you used to have an ad up in the top right corner, had to do with publishing. Do you still have contact information for that person? I seem to remember you saying that person was a regular here……. asking because I may have someone who would like to use his services.
Owen,
That’s Eric L.
He edited and published my books.
Click on any of the ads at top right and they will go to his site.
Thanks, Michael…
One of the widows in our church would like to publish her late husband’s book (he didn’t get to it before he passed), so I’ll refer her to Eric’s site.
Tom Petty, RIP.