Highly recommend ‘The Spirit of Early Christian Thought: Seeking the Face of God’ by Robert L. Wilken. It is really a remarkable compendium of patristic thought that is imminently reasonable and understandable.
I knew Bob back in the day when we both would present papers at the patristic conferences in Chicago and Oxford. He was very influenced by Jaroslav Pelikan. Around the time Pelikan (a Lutheran) became Orthodox, Bob (a Lutheran) became Roman Catholic. This book, however, plays it straight up the middle!
Up here we are bracing ourselves for my nurse daughter being fired for refusing the vaccine…
Many medical people have reservations as it is not a normal vaccine. But we will survive. 🙆 God IS faithful..
BTW – you haven’t experienced life in the mountains until you wake up to the stench of skunk on your bedroom…. have they found a way to get under the house? ? ?
Did God create those animals? Dunno – Grandmother told me when, as a child, i was complaining about having to pull weeds that the Garden of Eden had none. She said that they were the result of the fall. Guess that’s possible. Dunno
Jimmie T : “Because we care about you”? NO, It’s because we care about our grandchildren ( mine are 4 and 18 months) Their dad is in the Army and my littlevgrandchildren HAD to get on a plane and fly because their dad has been transferred to a new base. They’re too young to be vacinated, even though Mom and Dad have been vacinated. My poor daughter was terrified to have them in a plane ,unvaccinated ,with , presumably, other stubborn anti-vaxer adults who could infect her children. It’s not about you. It’s about OTHERS.
Sorry if that seemed harsh! My daughter is in a house with no furniture( 4 metal chairs and air mattresses for beds for her family )at the new base house. Their furniture us in a slow boat from Hawaii and won’t be there for six weeks. She works full-time for the US Chamber of Commerce remotely( by computer) but her two children can’t go to the base childcare for a week because the children must be in quarantine for a full week after flying because apparently flying is very risky because of all the anti vaxers who insist on getting on planes and sharing their petry dishes of Covid germs with everyone else on their plane. My son-in -law is on a military helicopter everyday risking his life to protect YOU. But you’re too afraid to get a FDA approved vaccination that will protect him and his children ( who are too young to get the Covid shot)? Please, stop being so fearful and cowardly ! Just do the right thing and stop thinking about yourself and just do what needs to be done. We’ve become a nation if self en-titled, soft cowards .Doing the right thing isn’t always easy.
I understand your frustrations and your love of your family.
However…
There are those who simply can’t be vaccinated and thousands of those folks are about to lose their jobs…and what will become of their families?
There are others with legit concerns over the safety of the shots…there is a risk involved and because of politics we really don’t know how much risk there is.
So…we’ll pray that all goes well for your beloved family…and also for the families that could lose everything through no fault of their own.
At least those people HAVE a choice; enlisted armed forces members DON’T have that choice! They and their families MUST get on a plane if transferred; they don’t have the luxury of quitting their jobs and leaving – If they do they are AWOL and they face court martial and face prison time!. Why? It’s ” for the ‘ greater good’ – to protect ‘US’, the civilians. Military personnel make sacrifices every day and give up all of their ‘rights’ to protect others . How can we say ” thank you for your service” and then do nothing but think of ourselves the very next moment? That’s being a hypocrite. God calls everyone to make sacrifices at some point.
I’m trying to be patient here…but the choice of having to lose the job you spent years at and thousands and thousands of dollars to prepare for…or else risk your health and take a jab to keep your family out of poverty…is no damn choice at all.
If all the people who could have been vaccinated without legitimate medical risk (what is that, 1%?) would have done their patriotic duty, we wouldn’t be in this mess, there wouldn’t be a vaccine mandate, thousands of closed businesses would still be open, and 10s of thousands more Americans would still be alive.
I don’t believe that.
The best outcome would have been that the hospital system wouldn’t have been overwhelmed…a worthy outcome.
I am vaccinated and will get the booster…but I have real concerns about how poorly vaccine injuries and deaths are tracked and how people with natural immunity are being forced as well.
The vaccine mandates are severe overreach and will end up hurting many more than they help…may indeed cause the system to collapse completely.
We — all of humanity — have never been particularly good at accepting the raw fact that we cannot force — we can at best only persuade — another human to do something that eases our own fears about the uncertain world….what was that this conversation started with? “We tried Scaring you, Then we Bribed you, Then we Guilted you, Then we Shamed you, Then we Blamed you…” — doesn’t sound like a formula for success, certainly not one that honors God in any way.
In times of great fear and uncertainty, God wants us to turn to Him and trust Him and keep on going with our lives, loving Him and our neighbors all along the way….not always easy.
Actually, that is what God’s servants do in governance of temporal nations: they guilt, shame and blame the disobedient.
If you want to trust and love God, then you will honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.
I believe the tide is turning against Evangelical anti-vaxxers. They will be abandoned by Evangelical leaders. Jefffress, Greg Laurie and now CP. I envision the abandonment as a slow drip, a gradual stepping back.
My narrative of the pandemic previously was one of general animus. The initial months consisted of allowing certain progressive states flounder for themselves, and compete among themselves for scarce supplies.
This quickly morphed into a weaponized culture war. Only, a war of attrition. No strategy, only a daily slog of mounting dead.
However, it would appear a light bulb is going off in the minds of some leaders. The casualties are not just elderly congregants. It’s the young, the healthy, the employed, the giving units, now threatened with financial ruin.
I suspect Evangelical leaders will make the same pragmatic decision the British made to abandon the Garipolli Campaign. Just walk away and take a write-off on the dead.
First, I want to make it clear am not anti vaxx. I think if you are in a high risk group, it is wise to choose to get the covid vaccine, the data shows obvious protection against severe symptoms, hospitalization and death.
I have worked on the frontlines with covid positive patients in two hospitals where I live from the beginning of the pandemic. I did this without proper PPE, was told in the beginning that we didn’t need masks, then we weren’t allowed to wear N95 masks because it would create panic, then I was given one mask to wear and reuse all day. I was ordered to wear the same mask, going from room to room with different patients.
We went to work not knowing if we were bringing it home to our families. We were scared and we did out job anyways, because that’s what healthcare workers do.
I am a respiratory therapist. I intubate, manage the vents, the high flow oxygen…all of it. I am the healthcare worker who is called when someone cannot breathe and I have not seen one minor child come into the ER and require hospitalization for covid. Many come in scared and test positive but personally, I have not seen one get hospitalized.
The argument that people should be getting vaccinated to protect others and to do it for the children who cannot be vaccinated is infuriating to me.
The science tells us vaccination does not prevent you from getting covid or passing it on to others, it protects you from severe symptoms.
The science cannot tell us what the vaxx will do to someone who has had covid and currently has robust immunity (positive for antibodies). THIS is why so many healthcare workers are resisting mandatory vaccination and are losing their jobs.
I have had multiple patients say to me, “I am fully vaccinated, how did I get covid?”
I have had multiple fully vaccinated coworkers go out on leave because they were covid positive.
The hospitals I worked at are only testing unvaccinated workers routinely. If hospitals really cared about protecting their patients and staff, they would be testing all staff routinely.
The vaxx suspensions have now started and medics (these are not RNs) from the national guard have arrived and are filling in for nurses. Care will be inadequate and people will probably die to to lack of staffing that is all unnecessary.
It has been discouraging to hear people (even on this blog)- accusing me and my colleagues in healthcare (who have robust immunity from covid and do not want this vaccine because the science is not clear) accusing us of being haters of our neighbors, haters or God, and questioning our faith when everyday, for a year and a half, it took our faith in God to continue to get up everyday and go to work.
Jean @ 5:05
Hold on- are you suggesting that the governor of California & the president of the United States are “God’s servants”? Also “honor & obey God’s servants”. If they were God’s servants-yes/absolutely!
ALL..as in all..in authority, are God’s servants. In addition, all of the Princes of the powers of the air, are servants. And finally, the one we call the Satan, is God’s servant. He serves as the god of this World, having been anointed as such.
“If you want to trust and love God, then you will honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.”
I think I’ll gag.
In this country (which God appointed) we also have the right to disute with the government in the fashion that has been established without violating the Scripture.
I no longer believe this is simply about preserving “health and livelihood”…
Jean,
I can only surmise, with some astonishment, that you have no idea how callous your words sound like here…God’s servants guilting, shaming, and blaming the disobedient….what ever happened to Romans 2:4?
And I have a hard time believing that you are one of those people who would’ve told any population suffering greatly under an oppresive government (the Jews in Germany in the mid 20th-century come to mind) that, if they want to trust and love God, they need to “honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.”
(it bothers me that I feel I need to include a disclaimer saying that I’m fully vaxxed and not anti-vax….but I have an 80-something elderly parent who had the virus, recovered from it, and adamantly does not want the vaccine because of their frail medical state, and I don’t see why they must be forced into it or be guilted, shamed, blamed, and shunned).
If you’re saying that Americans live under an oppressive government, then you are sorely deceived.
I don’t know what you think the application of Rm. 2:4 is in this conversation.
I’m sorry you find my words as callous, but that is also how I feel about some of the comments made by others.
I will double down with my opinion that the antigovernment, antivax, and anti mitigation protocol people in our country are responsible for loss of blood, treasure and opportunity for thousands and America’s future prospects. All of which was avoidable.
I understand pagan rebellion, but I expect more from Christians. Some believe our nation was founded on Christian values. What I would like to see is the country held together by Christian values. But what I see from some, loud, supposedly conservative Christians, is the desire to tear the country apart. Does anyone actually think that America would benefit from a civil war or break up?
Just because a citizen is not your tradition or religion or sexual orientation or political party or race (and Sarah I am not directing this sentence at you at all), he or she is still an American citizen entitled to participate in government and society and the American dream every bit as much as any conservative Christian.
When citizens disagree with one another within the political system of our government, that is not oppression. It’s democracy. It has served our nation well, and the efforts which have become accute in the past couple of years to reject democracy are an existential threat to our nation and our people. I think Christians should see the threat.
We American’s celebrate our independence and don’t like being told what to do even if its good for us and others. But losing one’s job for not being vaccinated seems extreme.
Honest question: if you were “king” what would you do to control the spread of Covid?
In case you are wondering why Evangelical Christians in the US went all into the various conspiracies and seemed to have lost their minds over the past 3 or more years, perhaps this sheds some light:
Evangelicals were all too eager patsies to foreign AgitProp and it showed. And you wonder why I saw Evangelical go off the deep end with their worship of Trump, election conspiracies, COVID conspiracies, and the like.
Of course, this STILL continues, except maybe the troll farms are in different Eastern European countries….
Should one find themselves suddenly king for a day, the proper action is to give it all away. But while we await in this life, for when we will be kings and priest in the next, there will be temporal events that come to pass.
Covid: Nothing. That has no connection to the purpose for which I am called and ordained. Its not a hill to die on.
It might kill me or cause my financial ruin, but that’s completely separate from my purpose. It does not pertain to the Faith. But the Church has been deceived into believing that one’s opinion of Covid, pertains to life and Godliness.
The Church is also being deceived about things such as spirit of anti-christ and the Beast. The purpose of this confusion, is to prevent the Church from correctly identifying the authentic, when the Church is destined to encounter them.
I think that is an important question and the answer begins with understanding that all trust in any institution is gone.
We need to be very careful to be completely transparent about the risk factors involved with the vaccine and create ways to gather reliable data on such.
We need to be completely transparent about treatments and therapeutics that may or may not work.
We have to create space for people who doubt or even reject vaccines.
We have to allow for alternatives…regular testing and proof of anti bodies should be accepted the same way as vaccination.
More than anything else, we must find ways to de-politicize a health crisis…and try to find a community spirit.
Michael
I think yours is a respectable and noteworthy response. My only push back is for what ever reason, Evangelicals , in addition to being independent, are suspicious and untrusting of information There are, no doubt, many causes for that—(news agencies agendas, as well as political agendas) but your comments on transparency (and I suppose authenticity) would address that.
Nathan Priddis
I find your answer to my question interesting. Curious as to what you mean by “ That has no connection to the purpose for which I am called and ordained. Its not a hill to die on.”
OfficerIPA(hoppy)
perhaps the problem with Evangelicals suspicion of information stems from who they’ve chosen to trust–self-promoting ministers whose handling of “truth” is in itself suspicious. Once the “picker” is broken, bad choices follow.
First let me rule out what I am not referring to. That being legitimate health concerns affecting a tiny percentage of Americans.
Example. I recieved the first does very early, and experienced unwanted symptoms. Primary Dr. recommended to not obtain second. “Doing my research” is a common phrase heard regarding the vacine.
I did mine as well. Except mine had nothing to do with the internet. It took place at the medical imaging clinic, and then with the Pulmanologist. If someone actualy believes the choice of vaccination has serious ramifications, they will obtain serious and credible expertise. As a high risk individual, I look forward to soon obtaining my booster.
The problem is that most of those refusing to get vaccinated do not have legitimate health concerns. Most of them just want their “FREEDUMB”. For example, I have some health issues which meant that the Jansen/J&J vaccine was the better option for me, but that did not preclude from getting any vaccine. So I got the Jansen/J&J vaccine. If I did not have those health issues, I would have gotten Moderna or Pfizer (both parts).
Well, _if_ one was a Jehovah’s Witness or a Christian Science (both of which are not Christian denominations and are heretics by any sense of the definitions of historic orthodox Christianity), then they probably could claim a religious exemption.
There are some with a skewed view of liberty and government.
Focusing on the fringe means that we do not hear legitimate concerns…some of which I share in more and more as the days go by.
Why don’t we focus on immunity instead of a shot?
Those with natural immunity should have the same status as those vaccinated.
That is simply common sense.
Why isn’t regular testing an alternative to the shot?
Why would we destroy lives when there is a reasonable alternative?
Why don’t we have cheap, abundant, home tests like the rest of the Western world?
I mask up everywhere…but why do we mask children on a playground and not in a packed cafeteria?
Why don’t we have real numbers and real data on vaccine injuries and deaths?
Virtually every study shows that outside infection is difficult at best.
Yes, you pull the mask down to eat…but without social distancing and and masking, cafeterias are a breeding ground.
Doesn’t make much sense…
“Why don’t we focus on immunity instead of a shot?”
Look at cities or communities with the largest percentage vaxxinated. Then look at their hospitilization and death numbers.
Do the inverse.
Those stats are not coincidental.
“Why don’t we have real numbers and real data on vaccine injuries and deaths?”
Because there is a vast government conspiracy to kill us all with this vaccine?
I’ll throw this out there because it’s a micro segment of the population I know all too well.
Most people with Lyme disease are refusing the vaccination.
The reason is that they have learned not to trust the CDC…for very good reasons.
If my own clan hadn’t come up with the resources to go overseas for treatment at least two of them would be dead now.
It’s the CDC that forced them to go to another country to find treatment.
“Because there is a vast government conspiracy to kill us all with this vaccine?”
This is where we have landed.
Because fringe groups have asked ridiculous questions and made ridiculous claims…no questions are allowed at all without condescending remarks.
Virtually every other vaccine and prescription medication has detailed research showing all these things…so people can make informed choices.
As one with a whole family in public education, yes, the cafeteria is a tough spot. They have tried to space out kids, having about half of them eat on the gym floor. Think those parents were happy?
The latest is that the teacher starts a clock once the masks are down, and they have 14 minutes to eat. Because 15 minutes is the exposure time that requires quarantine. The only real option would be not feeding the kids at school, but its the only meal some of those kids are getting.
That situation is not as cut and dried as it may seem.
1. There was no condescension. My guess to answer your question is that other vaccines had a decade of research behind them. Being that this one is new, we’ll see those kind of studies in about ten years. The numbers of injuries is very small, and deaths miniscule. On such a new study a couple of numbers one way or the other can really skew a study. It will take years to achieve the kind of data you are asking for.,
People are also confused between a diagnostic test (antigen) test and an antibody (serology test). A diagnostic test tests for the presence of COVID-19 itself, but the serology test tests for the antibodies your body produced in response to the COVID-19. However, antibodies typically take a number of weeks to develop in your system after the infection has passed. Serology tests are more complicated and costly than antigen tests and take longer to process.
You do understand that CDC would have differing reasons for not approving certain treatments, though, right?
They weren’t conspiring to kill your family, they were trying to understand a complex and historically misunderstood bacterial infection. And the nature of something like Lyme disease is far different than a pandemic level virus. Covid is going to jump to the top of their list for obvious reasons.
If your family is refusing vaccination simply for not trusting the CDC, I can assure you the CDC has no grudge against your family. There is no reason for personal distrust.
If they are afraid that the vaccination will affect the antibodies they have built up against Lyme disease, I’m sure they could get those answers and then make a rational choice.
“How do you know this?”
1. This is what the CDC reports. Again, unless you believe in some conspiracy about them, there is no reason to doubt what they say. The other option is that they are lying because they want to kill us all.
2. Personal anecdote – As a minister with family in public education and a daughter at a school of 40,000, I personally know hundreds of people who have been vaccinated. The worst side effects have been slight fever for two days. Again that’s out of hundreds.
You think the CDC has a political agenda of some sort, so there is no need in pointing you to what they say about the issues, but lets face it, they are the experts in this situation. We should listen to them.
You’re speaking of something you have no knowledge of.
The CDC has spent decades telling people that Lyme doesn’t exist except in very small categories and punishing doctors who diagnose it outside their very limited guidelines.
Thus when a person is believed by their physician to have Lyme, but the testing doesn’t match these very limited guidelines…their insurance won’t cover it and the doctor is in danger of losing his license if he insists on his diagnoses.
This has forced people to raise tens of thousand of dollars in their own to try to survive by going overseas.
I’ve lived this nightmare multiple times…and I trust the CDC as far as I can throw the building it sits in.
“You think the CDC has a political agenda of some sort, so there is no need in pointing you to what they say about the issues, but lets face it, they are the experts in this situation. We should listen to them.”
I have no idea what the agenda is.
I do know there is little reason for trust, other than the lack of alternatives.
OK, then the CDC hates people with Lyme disease. That doesn’t make sense to me, but if a guy on the internet says so, I believe him.
Lyme disease isn’t the only disease that breaks budgets and forces people to look for alternative treatment. That is just part of our public health regulations.
The CDC says “Lyme disease is the most common vector-borne disease in the United States.”. So I think your first sentence is off a little. Again, you assume some evil motive, when evolving knowledge explains the situation much better.
I will yield to your greater information … despite helping raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for people the CDC said weren’t really sick.
Despite being part of innumerable support groups for people wresting with this now…and ministering to people who lost loved ones because they couldn’t afford to go overseas.
Despite all we’ve gone though over the last ten years.
I will leave you to your confidence.
This is a good example of why we’ve seen the death of expertise.
In every situation, every person has a personal attachment that goes against main narrative. That outlier is then held up as The Truth, and the main narrative is couched as a lie. Personal feelings and admiration blur rational reasoning, as they should, but when seen on a mass level it feeds confusion and distrust of all authoritative sources. No longer is community of minds who have studied any certain issue considered experts, the small group of people that I feel affection towards are the only ones I’ll believe. We see itplay out over and over again.
Michael, I have no feelings about Lyme disease. I’m sorry your family has gone through it. I’m sure it was painful and very expensive. From the website, it appears the CDC agrees with you about all that, but again, not any battle that I care to fight.
The CDC very much does not agree … but you would have to understand the acceptable (by them) testing and how they have purposefully set a standard for diagnoses that leaves most people infected out of the picture and without insurance.
I am vaccinated…and now have to get a booster shot because the vaccine is evidently waning in effectiveness.
This was not what we were sold a year ago.
I understand that the information evolves…but what information is still to come that may be more troubling?
Why is asking questions so offensive?
Asking questions is not offensive. Misinformation and pointing towards conspiracy theories is deadly.
Again, you could look at the hospitalizations and deaths in the mostly highly vaccinated areas and you would see that it is the best thing for our communities. But you think the CDC are lying, so they are probably covering up bodies in those areas.
Couldn’t I just as easily say the CDC got it right on cancer, and that if we had followed your path of distrust my dad would be dead today? Of course I could, but that’s not argumentation, that’s emotionally charges, ultra personal information that would make actual conversation nearly impossible.
I have not pointed to any conspiracy theory…and I think my tears of mocking those who do should count for something.
I have openly said that I am vaccinated…and will probably even get the “booster”.
I have said that the risk/reward ratio is still on the side of getting vaccinated.
I have nowhere stated that the vaccines are not effective in reducing deaths.
Despite this, you smear me.
For asking questions.
Foe being concerned about those whose livelihoods will be unnecessarily taken…when there are alternatives.
For not trusting a government agency that at times has published conflicting guidance about this pandemic.
For most of the pandemic I haven’t questioned anything…basically because I do put a high value on expertise.
Especially medical expertise.
In the last couple of months…and especially in light of mandates that will ruin more than they fix…I have starting examining things.
I asked myself if the government ever lies…and laughed at my bookshelves full of documented government lies about border issues and the the “war on drugs”.
Has the government ever lied about medical issues?
Ask why the African American population is vaccine resistant or me about Lyme…
We will probably find that most of my questions will have reasonable answers…but with big government and big pharma…trust and verify…
As a public figure (very small scale, for me), I have responsibilities to those under my care. I can’t plant doubt in their heads about treatment that will most likely save their lives.
I have tried to be very careful about what I say.
I also have those under my care who are going to lose jobs they studied years to acquire and who have done the Lords work in their vocations.
They deserve better than what we have given them.
“I also have those under my care who are going to lose jobs they studied years to acquire and who have done the Lords work in their vocations.”
For anyone (and again the percentage is extremely small) who has a legitimate health risk from being vaccinated, this is a very sad situation.
The culprit for such victims IMO are the millions of Americans who were not at risk, who failed to do their civic duty to become vaccinated, so that the vaccine, which originally was free and voluntary, could have prevented the surge in the Delta variant, which overwhelmed various hospitals, killed thousands more, subject thousands to long hall covid, and jeopardized small businesses in many parts of this country.
People don’t like mandates. But they also failed to do the right thing when the vaccine was voluntary. Thus, the next and proper step is mandatory, which is not unique to this particular vaccine.
Schools and businesses have a duty of care to provide a safe environment to their students/patrons. The immune compromised and others with pre-existing conditions have rights under the OSHA and similar laws and regulations to work or go to school in a safe environment. Vaccines have always been a part of the equation.
Frequent testing could achieve the same result.
Why would people who work from home or without patient facing jobs be subject to a rigid mandate?
Why aren’t people allowed to make reasoned choices about this vaccine…which we will not have real data on for years?
I’m getting the booster…but not without increasing trepidation.
Michael,
As Josh alluded to at 9:37am, you set yourself above the trained and educated experts in this field. Where? Here for example: “Frequent testing could achieve the same result.” How do you know better than the scientists at the CDC?
There are trained and educated pro vaccine experts asking the same questions I am.
Testing, according to some, is necessary as vaccinated people catch and spread the virus too.
Please explain how a tele nurse working from home is a threat to patient health.
That was about as weak a response as possible.
What you’re saying in other words is that it has no effect on you and thus is of no concern to you as you have decided your course.
No, what I’m saying is that I didn’t make the rule, do not have the information and objectives that the rule maker had, nor the data relevant to the decision.
“The data shortfall is not simply an issue for the crafters of national vaccine policy. It’s also a conundrum for individuals trying to figure out their own risk.
Even Mokdad, the IHME epidemiologist who studies the data for a living, is uncertain about his continuing level of protection from vaccines.
“I’m a healthy 59-year-old person,” he said. “I’m not obese, I’m very healthy, I don’t have any chronic condition. The only thing I have against me is age.”
It has been more than six months since he got his second shot.
“Do we know how much immunity I have against hospitalization in the U.S.? No,” he said. “Do we know how much immunity I have against death? We don’t.”
I am vaxed.
I have promoted the vax and called it a gift from God.
My concerns…and the published concerns of real doctors and immunologists …shouldn’t be controversial.
My biggest concern is how we can mandate shots to the point of losing thousands of health care workers with these questions unanswered and with viable alternatives.
I’m done for the day…going to go get my flu shot if there’s anyone at the pharmacy to give it.
“So you know nothing, but trust the actions, anyway.”
Here’s what I know and trust:
The FDA has authorized or approved 3 vaccines based on double blind clinical trials, demonstrating the safety and efficacy of the vaccines. Hospital data over the past several months additionally supports vaccination.
Moreover , I know our country performs better when not constrained by the loss of workers and customers to disease, death and quarantine.
Finally, I know society functions better when its citizens conform to the structures that our God has instituted for our welfare.
There are specific Pentacostal Holiness believers with historical anti-medical doctrines. They are logically connected to established doctrines. If Holiness is a reciprocal God/man relationship, and promises of health are connected to that Holiness, then one should remain true to one’s doctrine and reject a bypass of faith based healing.
I also makes total sense for the Black Community to be suspicious of public health campaigns and research. Memories die hard.
Jehovahs witness can cite an apocalyptic understanding of life and a history of social rejection and persecution.
None of these people have discovered last month, they possessed a sincerely held Covid belief.
That was kind of my point in another post. But for many evangelicals outside those historic groups to suddenly discover “religious exemptions” for just the COVID vaccines (what about Flu or Tetanus or DPT vaccines?) is rather convenient don’t you think? Honestly, it doesn’t pass the bulls*it test.
It’s all yours today…
We tried Scaring you
Then we Bribed you
Then we Guilted you
Then we Shamed you
Then we Blamed you
Now we’re
Going to Fire you
Because we Care about you!
(what’s next dear friends??)
Jimmie T.
I’m opposed to vaccine mandates.
However, I’m pro vaccine…and will get my booster next month.
Highly recommend ‘The Spirit of Early Christian Thought: Seeking the Face of God’ by Robert L. Wilken. It is really a remarkable compendium of patristic thought that is imminently reasonable and understandable.
I knew Bob back in the day when we both would present papers at the patristic conferences in Chicago and Oxford. He was very influenced by Jaroslav Pelikan. Around the time Pelikan (a Lutheran) became Orthodox, Bob (a Lutheran) became Roman Catholic. This book, however, plays it straight up the middle!
Michael @11:15
Thanks Michael! Your opinion is greatly appreciated!
Up here we are bracing ourselves for my nurse daughter being fired for refusing the vaccine…
Many medical people have reservations as it is not a normal vaccine. But we will survive. 🙆 God IS faithful..
BTW – you haven’t experienced life in the mountains until you wake up to the stench of skunk on your bedroom…. have they found a way to get under the house? ? ?
Did God create those animals? Dunno – Grandmother told me when, as a child, i was complaining about having to pull weeds that the Garden of Eden had none. She said that they were the result of the fall. Guess that’s possible. Dunno
Em,
I suspect the cost of losing all these health care workers will result in the reversal of the mandates at some point.
I hope…
I smell skunks almost every night.
I love skunks…cats with a weapon.
Don’t like the smell, though…
Duane,
Unfortunately, he has many books on Amazon I want now…need to find some extra hours…
“Cats with a weapon”. LOL. 😿
Michael
I’ve read others of his, but I think this one is something special…
Jimmie T : “Because we care about you”? NO, It’s because we care about our grandchildren ( mine are 4 and 18 months) Their dad is in the Army and my littlevgrandchildren HAD to get on a plane and fly because their dad has been transferred to a new base. They’re too young to be vacinated, even though Mom and Dad have been vacinated. My poor daughter was terrified to have them in a plane ,unvaccinated ,with , presumably, other stubborn anti-vaxer adults who could infect her children. It’s not about you. It’s about OTHERS.
Sorry if that seemed harsh! My daughter is in a house with no furniture( 4 metal chairs and air mattresses for beds for her family )at the new base house. Their furniture us in a slow boat from Hawaii and won’t be there for six weeks. She works full-time for the US Chamber of Commerce remotely( by computer) but her two children can’t go to the base childcare for a week because the children must be in quarantine for a full week after flying because apparently flying is very risky because of all the anti vaxers who insist on getting on planes and sharing their petry dishes of Covid germs with everyone else on their plane. My son-in -law is on a military helicopter everyday risking his life to protect YOU. But you’re too afraid to get a FDA approved vaccination that will protect him and his children ( who are too young to get the Covid shot)? Please, stop being so fearful and cowardly ! Just do the right thing and stop thinking about yourself and just do what needs to be done. We’ve become a nation if self en-titled, soft cowards .Doing the right thing isn’t always easy.
Bride of Christ,
I understand your frustrations and your love of your family.
However…
There are those who simply can’t be vaccinated and thousands of those folks are about to lose their jobs…and what will become of their families?
There are others with legit concerns over the safety of the shots…there is a risk involved and because of politics we really don’t know how much risk there is.
So…we’ll pray that all goes well for your beloved family…and also for the families that could lose everything through no fault of their own.
Thanks, Michael… I’m so frustrated with all of this, and so frustrated with how it never seems to be over..
BrideofChrist,
I hear you…I think we’re all frustrated…I know I am.
At least those people HAVE a choice; enlisted armed forces members DON’T have that choice! They and their families MUST get on a plane if transferred; they don’t have the luxury of quitting their jobs and leaving – If they do they are AWOL and they face court martial and face prison time!. Why? It’s ” for the ‘ greater good’ – to protect ‘US’, the civilians. Military personnel make sacrifices every day and give up all of their ‘rights’ to protect others . How can we say ” thank you for your service” and then do nothing but think of ourselves the very next moment? That’s being a hypocrite. God calls everyone to make sacrifices at some point.
BrideofChrist,
I’m trying to be patient here…but the choice of having to lose the job you spent years at and thousands and thousands of dollars to prepare for…or else risk your health and take a jab to keep your family out of poverty…is no damn choice at all.
I’m sorry that we’re all in this boat…but making other people the enemy isn’t going to make it all better.
I care about my family too…and they may lose everything if all this happens.
If all the people who could have been vaccinated without legitimate medical risk (what is that, 1%?) would have done their patriotic duty, we wouldn’t be in this mess, there wouldn’t be a vaccine mandate, thousands of closed businesses would still be open, and 10s of thousands more Americans would still be alive.
Jean,
I don’t believe that.
The best outcome would have been that the hospital system wouldn’t have been overwhelmed…a worthy outcome.
I am vaccinated and will get the booster…but I have real concerns about how poorly vaccine injuries and deaths are tracked and how people with natural immunity are being forced as well.
The vaccine mandates are severe overreach and will end up hurting many more than they help…may indeed cause the system to collapse completely.
I have never once determined any thought or action under the banner of “patriotic duty”…and probably never will.
We — all of humanity — have never been particularly good at accepting the raw fact that we cannot force — we can at best only persuade — another human to do something that eases our own fears about the uncertain world….what was that this conversation started with? “We tried Scaring you, Then we Bribed you, Then we Guilted you, Then we Shamed you, Then we Blamed you…” — doesn’t sound like a formula for success, certainly not one that honors God in any way.
In times of great fear and uncertainty, God wants us to turn to Him and trust Him and keep on going with our lives, loving Him and our neighbors all along the way….not always easy.
Actually, that is what God’s servants do in governance of temporal nations: they guilt, shame and blame the disobedient.
If you want to trust and love God, then you will honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.
sarahmorgan,
It’s not a formula for success, but it is a formula for radicalizing another chunk of the citizenry…
I believe the tide is turning against Evangelical anti-vaxxers. They will be abandoned by Evangelical leaders. Jefffress, Greg Laurie and now CP. I envision the abandonment as a slow drip, a gradual stepping back.
My narrative of the pandemic previously was one of general animus. The initial months consisted of allowing certain progressive states flounder for themselves, and compete among themselves for scarce supplies.
This quickly morphed into a weaponized culture war. Only, a war of attrition. No strategy, only a daily slog of mounting dead.
However, it would appear a light bulb is going off in the minds of some leaders. The casualties are not just elderly congregants. It’s the young, the healthy, the employed, the giving units, now threatened with financial ruin.
I suspect Evangelical leaders will make the same pragmatic decision the British made to abandon the Garipolli Campaign. Just walk away and take a write-off on the dead.
First, I want to make it clear am not anti vaxx. I think if you are in a high risk group, it is wise to choose to get the covid vaccine, the data shows obvious protection against severe symptoms, hospitalization and death.
I have worked on the frontlines with covid positive patients in two hospitals where I live from the beginning of the pandemic. I did this without proper PPE, was told in the beginning that we didn’t need masks, then we weren’t allowed to wear N95 masks because it would create panic, then I was given one mask to wear and reuse all day. I was ordered to wear the same mask, going from room to room with different patients.
We went to work not knowing if we were bringing it home to our families. We were scared and we did out job anyways, because that’s what healthcare workers do.
I am a respiratory therapist. I intubate, manage the vents, the high flow oxygen…all of it. I am the healthcare worker who is called when someone cannot breathe and I have not seen one minor child come into the ER and require hospitalization for covid. Many come in scared and test positive but personally, I have not seen one get hospitalized.
The argument that people should be getting vaccinated to protect others and to do it for the children who cannot be vaccinated is infuriating to me.
The science tells us vaccination does not prevent you from getting covid or passing it on to others, it protects you from severe symptoms.
The science cannot tell us what the vaxx will do to someone who has had covid and currently has robust immunity (positive for antibodies). THIS is why so many healthcare workers are resisting mandatory vaccination and are losing their jobs.
I have had multiple patients say to me, “I am fully vaccinated, how did I get covid?”
I have had multiple fully vaccinated coworkers go out on leave because they were covid positive.
The hospitals I worked at are only testing unvaccinated workers routinely. If hospitals really cared about protecting their patients and staff, they would be testing all staff routinely.
The vaxx suspensions have now started and medics (these are not RNs) from the national guard have arrived and are filling in for nurses. Care will be inadequate and people will probably die to to lack of staffing that is all unnecessary.
It has been discouraging to hear people (even on this blog)- accusing me and my colleagues in healthcare (who have robust immunity from covid and do not want this vaccine because the science is not clear) accusing us of being haters of our neighbors, haters or God, and questioning our faith when everyday, for a year and a half, it took our faith in God to continue to get up everyday and go to work.
Ray,
Thank you…and may God bless and protect you in every way.
I affirm everything you wrote.
Jean @ 5:05
Hold on- are you suggesting that the governor of California & the president of the United States are “God’s servants”? Also “honor & obey God’s servants”. If they were God’s servants-yes/absolutely!
Jean @ 5:05
No servanthood towards God exists in the hearts & minds of these two. A servant hears His masters voice and obeys Him.
Ray @ 9:50
“Bullseye”!
Jimmie T.
ALL..as in all..in authority, are God’s servants. In addition, all of the Princes of the powers of the air, are servants. And finally, the one we call the Satan, is God’s servant. He serves as the god of this World, having been anointed as such.
Jean is correct.
JimmieT,
The Bible is clear that God appoints rulers…it says nothing about their character. When Paul wrote Romans, Nero was in power.
“If you want to trust and love God, then you will honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.”
I think I’ll gag.
In this country (which God appointed) we also have the right to disute with the government in the fashion that has been established without violating the Scripture.
I no longer believe this is simply about preserving “health and livelihood”…
Jean,
I can only surmise, with some astonishment, that you have no idea how callous your words sound like here…God’s servants guilting, shaming, and blaming the disobedient….what ever happened to Romans 2:4?
And I have a hard time believing that you are one of those people who would’ve told any population suffering greatly under an oppresive government (the Jews in Germany in the mid 20th-century come to mind) that, if they want to trust and love God, they need to “honor and obey His servants whom He has called and placed over you to protect your health and livelihood and those of your neighbors.”
(it bothers me that I feel I need to include a disclaimer saying that I’m fully vaxxed and not anti-vax….but I have an 80-something elderly parent who had the virus, recovered from it, and adamantly does not want the vaccine because of their frail medical state, and I don’t see why they must be forced into it or be guilted, shamed, blamed, and shunned).
Sarah…agreed here…
Sarah,
If you’re saying that Americans live under an oppressive government, then you are sorely deceived.
I don’t know what you think the application of Rm. 2:4 is in this conversation.
I’m sorry you find my words as callous, but that is also how I feel about some of the comments made by others.
I will double down with my opinion that the antigovernment, antivax, and anti mitigation protocol people in our country are responsible for loss of blood, treasure and opportunity for thousands and America’s future prospects. All of which was avoidable.
I understand pagan rebellion, but I expect more from Christians. Some believe our nation was founded on Christian values. What I would like to see is the country held together by Christian values. But what I see from some, loud, supposedly conservative Christians, is the desire to tear the country apart. Does anyone actually think that America would benefit from a civil war or break up?
Just because a citizen is not your tradition or religion or sexual orientation or political party or race (and Sarah I am not directing this sentence at you at all), he or she is still an American citizen entitled to participate in government and society and the American dream every bit as much as any conservative Christian.
When citizens disagree with one another within the political system of our government, that is not oppression. It’s democracy. It has served our nation well, and the efforts which have become accute in the past couple of years to reject democracy are an existential threat to our nation and our people. I think Christians should see the threat.
“Opinions are like elbows- everyone has a couple of them”
Profound.
We American’s celebrate our independence and don’t like being told what to do even if its good for us and others. But losing one’s job for not being vaccinated seems extreme.
Honest question: if you were “king” what would you do to control the spread of Covid?
In case you are wondering why Evangelical Christians in the US went all into the various conspiracies and seemed to have lost their minds over the past 3 or more years, perhaps this sheds some light:
https://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/tech-gaming/almost-all-of-facebooks-top-christian-pages-are-run-by-foreign-troll-farms/
Evangelicals were all too eager patsies to foreign AgitProp and it showed. And you wonder why I saw Evangelical go off the deep end with their worship of Trump, election conspiracies, COVID conspiracies, and the like.
Of course, this STILL continues, except maybe the troll farms are in different Eastern European countries….
Here is the link to the actual article in MIT Technology Review:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
Thanks for the links CM. I have never heard of the term “Troll Farm” until I saw that table in the Relevant Magazine link.
Officerhoppy.
Should one find themselves suddenly king for a day, the proper action is to give it all away. But while we await in this life, for when we will be kings and priest in the next, there will be temporal events that come to pass.
Covid: Nothing. That has no connection to the purpose for which I am called and ordained. Its not a hill to die on.
It might kill me or cause my financial ruin, but that’s completely separate from my purpose. It does not pertain to the Faith. But the Church has been deceived into believing that one’s opinion of Covid, pertains to life and Godliness.
The Church is also being deceived about things such as spirit of anti-christ and the Beast. The purpose of this confusion, is to prevent the Church from correctly identifying the authentic, when the Church is destined to encounter them.
Officerhoppy,
I think that is an important question and the answer begins with understanding that all trust in any institution is gone.
We need to be very careful to be completely transparent about the risk factors involved with the vaccine and create ways to gather reliable data on such.
We need to be completely transparent about treatments and therapeutics that may or may not work.
We have to create space for people who doubt or even reject vaccines.
We have to allow for alternatives…regular testing and proof of anti bodies should be accepted the same way as vaccination.
More than anything else, we must find ways to de-politicize a health crisis…and try to find a community spirit.
Michael
I think yours is a respectable and noteworthy response. My only push back is for what ever reason, Evangelicals , in addition to being independent, are suspicious and untrusting of information There are, no doubt, many causes for that—(news agencies agendas, as well as political agendas) but your comments on transparency (and I suppose authenticity) would address that.
Nathan Priddis
I find your answer to my question interesting. Curious as to what you mean by “ That has no connection to the purpose for which I am called and ordained. Its not a hill to die on.”
Thanks
OfficerIPA(hoppy)
perhaps the problem with Evangelicals suspicion of information stems from who they’ve chosen to trust–self-promoting ministers whose handling of “truth” is in itself suspicious. Once the “picker” is broken, bad choices follow.
Fil
You know I’m a Pilsner guy!
I am particular fond of Pilsner Urquell, which by the way is the original Pilsner (as it is brewed in Plzen, Czech Republic).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilsner_Urquell
Officerhoppy.
First let me rule out what I am not referring to. That being legitimate health concerns affecting a tiny percentage of Americans.
Example. I recieved the first does very early, and experienced unwanted symptoms. Primary Dr. recommended to not obtain second. “Doing my research” is a common phrase heard regarding the vacine.
I did mine as well. Except mine had nothing to do with the internet. It took place at the medical imaging clinic, and then with the Pulmanologist. If someone actualy believes the choice of vaccination has serious ramifications, they will obtain serious and credible expertise. As a high risk individual, I look forward to soon obtaining my booster.
Nathan,
The problem is that most of those refusing to get vaccinated do not have legitimate health concerns. Most of them just want their “FREEDUMB”. For example, I have some health issues which meant that the Jansen/J&J vaccine was the better option for me, but that did not preclude from getting any vaccine. So I got the Jansen/J&J vaccine. If I did not have those health issues, I would have gotten Moderna or Pfizer (both parts).
CM,
I have been racking my brain trying to come up with a plausible legitimate rationale for a religious exemption too. What have you come up with?
Jean,
Well, _if_ one was a Jehovah’s Witness or a Christian Science (both of which are not Christian denominations and are heretics by any sense of the definitions of historic orthodox Christianity), then they probably could claim a religious exemption.
I don’t know if maybe the Amish have some kind of rules against modern medicine.
“Most of them just want their “FREEDUMB”.”
There are some with a skewed view of liberty and government.
Focusing on the fringe means that we do not hear legitimate concerns…some of which I share in more and more as the days go by.
Why don’t we focus on immunity instead of a shot?
Those with natural immunity should have the same status as those vaccinated.
That is simply common sense.
Why isn’t regular testing an alternative to the shot?
Why would we destroy lives when there is a reasonable alternative?
Why don’t we have cheap, abundant, home tests like the rest of the Western world?
I mask up everywhere…but why do we mask children on a playground and not in a packed cafeteria?
Why don’t we have real numbers and real data on vaccine injuries and deaths?
Religious exemptions are usually based on fetal cell research…or what some believe is a need to oppose governmental mandates they deem evil.
“not in a packed cafeteria?”
Self-obvious, right?
Josh,
Virtually every study shows that outside infection is difficult at best.
Yes, you pull the mask down to eat…but without social distancing and and masking, cafeterias are a breeding ground.
Doesn’t make much sense…
“Why don’t we focus on immunity instead of a shot?”
Look at cities or communities with the largest percentage vaxxinated. Then look at their hospitilization and death numbers.
Do the inverse.
Those stats are not coincidental.
“Why don’t we have real numbers and real data on vaccine injuries and deaths?”
Because there is a vast government conspiracy to kill us all with this vaccine?
I’ll throw this out there because it’s a micro segment of the population I know all too well.
Most people with Lyme disease are refusing the vaccination.
The reason is that they have learned not to trust the CDC…for very good reasons.
If my own clan hadn’t come up with the resources to go overseas for treatment at least two of them would be dead now.
It’s the CDC that forced them to go to another country to find treatment.
“Because there is a vast government conspiracy to kill us all with this vaccine?”
This is where we have landed.
Because fringe groups have asked ridiculous questions and made ridiculous claims…no questions are allowed at all without condescending remarks.
Virtually every other vaccine and prescription medication has detailed research showing all these things…so people can make informed choices.
As one with a whole family in public education, yes, the cafeteria is a tough spot. They have tried to space out kids, having about half of them eat on the gym floor. Think those parents were happy?
The latest is that the teacher starts a clock once the masks are down, and they have 14 minutes to eat. Because 15 minutes is the exposure time that requires quarantine. The only real option would be not feeding the kids at school, but its the only meal some of those kids are getting.
That situation is not as cut and dried as it may seem.
Michael,
A couple of things about COVID antibody tests. Here is a link to some information on them:
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/antibody-serology-testing-covid-19-information-patients-and-consumers#:~:text=COVID%2D19%20antibody%20tests,COVID%2D19%20infection.
You can get them from your health care provider, just like any other antibody test.
The biggest problem is that I don’t think there is currently an antibody test that tests for just SARS-Cov2.
1. There was no condescension. My guess to answer your question is that other vaccines had a decade of research behind them. Being that this one is new, we’ll see those kind of studies in about ten years. The numbers of injuries is very small, and deaths miniscule. On such a new study a couple of numbers one way or the other can really skew a study. It will take years to achieve the kind of data you are asking for.,
People are also confused between a diagnostic test (antigen) test and an antibody (serology test). A diagnostic test tests for the presence of COVID-19 itself, but the serology test tests for the antibodies your body produced in response to the COVID-19. However, antibodies typically take a number of weeks to develop in your system after the infection has passed. Serology tests are more complicated and costly than antigen tests and take longer to process.
“The numbers of injuries is very small, and deaths miniscule.”
How do you know this?
What do we know about the injuries and deaths?
I’ve spent a lot of hours looking for this info…I haven’t seen it.
“That situation is not as cut and dried as it may seem.”
Nothing about this pandemic is…and I will resist the desire to make it so without proper data.
You do understand that CDC would have differing reasons for not approving certain treatments, though, right?
They weren’t conspiring to kill your family, they were trying to understand a complex and historically misunderstood bacterial infection. And the nature of something like Lyme disease is far different than a pandemic level virus. Covid is going to jump to the top of their list for obvious reasons.
If your family is refusing vaccination simply for not trusting the CDC, I can assure you the CDC has no grudge against your family. There is no reason for personal distrust.
If they are afraid that the vaccination will affect the antibodies they have built up against Lyme disease, I’m sure they could get those answers and then make a rational choice.
“How do you know this?”
1. This is what the CDC reports. Again, unless you believe in some conspiracy about them, there is no reason to doubt what they say. The other option is that they are lying because they want to kill us all.
2. Personal anecdote – As a minister with family in public education and a daughter at a school of 40,000, I personally know hundreds of people who have been vaccinated. The worst side effects have been slight fever for two days. Again that’s out of hundreds.
You think the CDC has a political agenda of some sort, so there is no need in pointing you to what they say about the issues, but lets face it, they are the experts in this situation. We should listen to them.
“I will resist the desire to make it so without proper data.”
Hope you plan on hanging around for another 10-20 years 🙂
Josh,
You’re speaking of something you have no knowledge of.
The CDC has spent decades telling people that Lyme doesn’t exist except in very small categories and punishing doctors who diagnose it outside their very limited guidelines.
Thus when a person is believed by their physician to have Lyme, but the testing doesn’t match these very limited guidelines…their insurance won’t cover it and the doctor is in danger of losing his license if he insists on his diagnoses.
This has forced people to raise tens of thousand of dollars in their own to try to survive by going overseas.
I’ve lived this nightmare multiple times…and I trust the CDC as far as I can throw the building it sits in.
“You think the CDC has a political agenda of some sort, so there is no need in pointing you to what they say about the issues, but lets face it, they are the experts in this situation. We should listen to them.”
I have no idea what the agenda is.
I do know there is little reason for trust, other than the lack of alternatives.
CM,
Britain has used cheap home tests to great advantage over the last year.
They have just now been approved for use here…
OK, then the CDC hates people with Lyme disease. That doesn’t make sense to me, but if a guy on the internet says so, I believe him.
Lyme disease isn’t the only disease that breaks budgets and forces people to look for alternative treatment. That is just part of our public health regulations.
The CDC says “Lyme disease is the most common vector-borne disease in the United States.”. So I think your first sentence is off a little. Again, you assume some evil motive, when evolving knowledge explains the situation much better.
Josh,
I will yield to your greater information … despite helping raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for people the CDC said weren’t really sick.
Despite being part of innumerable support groups for people wresting with this now…and ministering to people who lost loved ones because they couldn’t afford to go overseas.
Despite all we’ve gone though over the last ten years.
I will leave you to your confidence.
“Again, you assume some evil motive, when evolving knowledge explains the situation much better.”
I have never stated a motive as that is outside my knowledge.
I only know the facts on the ground.
Why did you flip this to an argument about lyme disaease?
“Why did you flip this to an argument about lyme disaease?”
There is no argument among those who have it.
The reason I brought it up is your confidence in the CDC…which I do not share…for good reason.
This is a good example of why we’ve seen the death of expertise.
In every situation, every person has a personal attachment that goes against main narrative. That outlier is then held up as The Truth, and the main narrative is couched as a lie. Personal feelings and admiration blur rational reasoning, as they should, but when seen on a mass level it feeds confusion and distrust of all authoritative sources. No longer is community of minds who have studied any certain issue considered experts, the small group of people that I feel affection towards are the only ones I’ll believe. We see itplay out over and over again.
Michael, I have no feelings about Lyme disease. I’m sorry your family has gone through it. I’m sure it was painful and very expensive. From the website, it appears the CDC agrees with you about all that, but again, not any battle that I care to fight.
Josh,
The CDC very much does not agree … but you would have to understand the acceptable (by them) testing and how they have purposefully set a standard for diagnoses that leaves most people infected out of the picture and without insurance.
I am vaccinated…and now have to get a booster shot because the vaccine is evidently waning in effectiveness.
This was not what we were sold a year ago.
I understand that the information evolves…but what information is still to come that may be more troubling?
Why is asking questions so offensive?
Asking questions is not offensive. Misinformation and pointing towards conspiracy theories is deadly.
Again, you could look at the hospitalizations and deaths in the mostly highly vaccinated areas and you would see that it is the best thing for our communities. But you think the CDC are lying, so they are probably covering up bodies in those areas.
Couldn’t I just as easily say the CDC got it right on cancer, and that if we had followed your path of distrust my dad would be dead today? Of course I could, but that’s not argumentation, that’s emotionally charges, ultra personal information that would make actual conversation nearly impossible.
Josh,
I have not pointed to any conspiracy theory…and I think my tears of mocking those who do should count for something.
I have openly said that I am vaccinated…and will probably even get the “booster”.
I have said that the risk/reward ratio is still on the side of getting vaccinated.
I have nowhere stated that the vaccines are not effective in reducing deaths.
Despite this, you smear me.
For asking questions.
Foe being concerned about those whose livelihoods will be unnecessarily taken…when there are alternatives.
For not trusting a government agency that at times has published conflicting guidance about this pandemic.
I’ll take the shots and keep asking.
“I have not pointed to any conspiracy theory”
I didn’t say that you did.
“Despite this, you smear me.”
Where? We are talking from two different sides of an issue, but I didn’t smear you at all, nor would I. I hold you in the highest regard.
” I hold you in the highest regard.”
As I do you.
Actually Michael, the UK just started to offer home antibody testing for COVID to the general public:
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-begin-offering-covid-antibody-testing-general-public-first-time-media-2021-08-22/
About the same time as the US.
My daughter used one earlier this week. So neat. Had a little bluetooth attachment that ran results through her phone. Truly the future of healthcare.
For most of the pandemic I haven’t questioned anything…basically because I do put a high value on expertise.
Especially medical expertise.
In the last couple of months…and especially in light of mandates that will ruin more than they fix…I have starting examining things.
I asked myself if the government ever lies…and laughed at my bookshelves full of documented government lies about border issues and the the “war on drugs”.
Has the government ever lied about medical issues?
Ask why the African American population is vaccine resistant or me about Lyme…
We will probably find that most of my questions will have reasonable answers…but with big government and big pharma…trust and verify…
I question everything, personally.
As a public figure (very small scale, for me), I have responsibilities to those under my care. I can’t plant doubt in their heads about treatment that will most likely save their lives.
Thank you Josh!
Josh,
I have tried to be very careful about what I say.
I also have those under my care who are going to lose jobs they studied years to acquire and who have done the Lords work in their vocations.
They deserve better than what we have given them.
Again, I hope you didn’t find an accusation in my statement.
“I also have those under my care who are going to lose jobs they studied years to acquire and who have done the Lords work in their vocations.”
For anyone (and again the percentage is extremely small) who has a legitimate health risk from being vaccinated, this is a very sad situation.
The culprit for such victims IMO are the millions of Americans who were not at risk, who failed to do their civic duty to become vaccinated, so that the vaccine, which originally was free and voluntary, could have prevented the surge in the Delta variant, which overwhelmed various hospitals, killed thousands more, subject thousands to long hall covid, and jeopardized small businesses in many parts of this country.
People don’t like mandates. But they also failed to do the right thing when the vaccine was voluntary. Thus, the next and proper step is mandatory, which is not unique to this particular vaccine.
Schools and businesses have a duty of care to provide a safe environment to their students/patrons. The immune compromised and others with pre-existing conditions have rights under the OSHA and similar laws and regulations to work or go to school in a safe environment. Vaccines have always been a part of the equation.
Jean,
Frequent testing could achieve the same result.
Why would people who work from home or without patient facing jobs be subject to a rigid mandate?
Why aren’t people allowed to make reasoned choices about this vaccine…which we will not have real data on for years?
I’m getting the booster…but not without increasing trepidation.
Michael,
As Josh alluded to at 9:37am, you set yourself above the trained and educated experts in this field. Where? Here for example: “Frequent testing could achieve the same result.” How do you know better than the scientists at the CDC?
Jean,
There are trained and educated pro vaccine experts asking the same questions I am.
Testing, according to some, is necessary as vaccinated people catch and spread the virus too.
Please explain how a tele nurse working from home is a threat to patient health.
Michael, it’s not for me to explain. I am not given that responsibility.
Jean,
That was about as weak a response as possible.
What you’re saying in other words is that it has no effect on you and thus is of no concern to you as you have decided your course.
“Please explain how a tele nurse working from home is a threat to patient health.”
Influence, perhaps.
No, what I’m saying is that I didn’t make the rule, do not have the information and objectives that the rule maker had, nor the data relevant to the decision.
I’m not the only one with questions…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/30/inadequate-us-data-pandemic-response/
Jean,
So you know nothing, but trust the actions, anyway.
Good luck with that…
From the article:
“The data shortfall is not simply an issue for the crafters of national vaccine policy. It’s also a conundrum for individuals trying to figure out their own risk.
Even Mokdad, the IHME epidemiologist who studies the data for a living, is uncertain about his continuing level of protection from vaccines.
“I’m a healthy 59-year-old person,” he said. “I’m not obese, I’m very healthy, I don’t have any chronic condition. The only thing I have against me is age.”
It has been more than six months since he got his second shot.
“Do we know how much immunity I have against hospitalization in the U.S.? No,” he said. “Do we know how much immunity I have against death? We don’t.”
Sure , lots of people asking questions.
Now that is an interesting quote, because I’ve seen Mokdad promoting the booster shot elsewhere. I’m thinking they missed his context a bit.
I’m losing my mind here.
I am vaxed.
I have promoted the vax and called it a gift from God.
My concerns…and the published concerns of real doctors and immunologists …shouldn’t be controversial.
My biggest concern is how we can mandate shots to the point of losing thousands of health care workers with these questions unanswered and with viable alternatives.
I’m done for the day…going to go get my flu shot if there’s anyone at the pharmacy to give it.
“So you know nothing, but trust the actions, anyway.”
Here’s what I know and trust:
The FDA has authorized or approved 3 vaccines based on double blind clinical trials, demonstrating the safety and efficacy of the vaccines. Hospital data over the past several months additionally supports vaccination.
Moreover , I know our country performs better when not constrained by the loss of workers and customers to disease, death and quarantine.
Finally, I know society functions better when its citizens conform to the structures that our God has instituted for our welfare.
“I’m losing my mind here.
I am vaxed.
I have promoted the vax and called it a gift from God.”
I’m guessing that was in response to me. I didn’t question your vaccination status, only the way that article framed Mondak’s quote.
There are specific Pentacostal Holiness believers with historical anti-medical doctrines. They are logically connected to established doctrines. If Holiness is a reciprocal God/man relationship, and promises of health are connected to that Holiness, then one should remain true to one’s doctrine and reject a bypass of faith based healing.
I also makes total sense for the Black Community to be suspicious of public health campaigns and research. Memories die hard.
Jehovahs witness can cite an apocalyptic understanding of life and a history of social rejection and persecution.
None of these people have discovered last month, they possessed a sincerely held Covid belief.
Nathan,
That was kind of my point in another post. But for many evangelicals outside those historic groups to suddenly discover “religious exemptions” for just the COVID vaccines (what about Flu or Tetanus or DPT vaccines?) is rather convenient don’t you think? Honestly, it doesn’t pass the bulls*it test.
What should concern every Christian is the Commandment against taking the name of the Lord in vane.
Jean,
What does that have to do with this thread?
It has to do with a Christian claiming a religious exemption.
https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/history-how-vaccine-mandates-have-eradicated-diseases/51-117d97ee-9ba5-408e-8f57-34384761602c