Finally, a news media article skeptical of the UAP Hearings.
“For the past several years, Grusch has been working alongside a network of government-adjacent UFO believers (many now working for defense contractors or UFO think tanks) who have been sources in stories about flying saucers and dead aliens across the media and in the halls of Congress. You might have seen some of them on cable UFO shows like “The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch,” in which a former Pentagon UFO analyst who served on the task force that helped write the government’s 2021 UFO report now leads a reality TV crew hunting harmful, disembodied quantum “hitchhiker” entities, one of which he claims attached itself to him. It would be funny, except that the Pentagon regularly employs believers in space ghosts and Congress listens to them.”
“Grusch may well be telling the truth about hearing these stories, but the stories were old when “The X-Files” was new. Congress must do better than take them at face value.”
I first heard this author interviewed on the late Michael Heiser’s podcast years ago, for those of you familiar with Heiser.
O Father of mercies and God of all comfort, our only help in
time of need: We humbly beseech thee to behold, visit, and
relieve thy servant Michael for whom our prayers are desired.
Look upon him with the eyes of thy mercy; comfort him with
a sense of thy goodness; preserve him from the temptations
of the enemy; and give him patience under his affliction. In
thy good time, restore him to health, and enable him to lead
the residue of his life in thy fear, and to thy glory; and grant
that finally he may dwell with thee in life everlasting; through
Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
This too shall pass, but not quickly or painlessly.
Liam, my cat, is very verbal when he’s coming back in the house. You can hear him from some distance off. He has quite the array of intonations and inflections…some sound like chirping, some like crying, some like feline singing, and some a little louder to make sure you hear him and understand that he needs something.
He gets real loud when he walks in…and my assumption is that he wants food, or water or treats….and sometimes I’m right.
Lately though, I quickly provide all those things and he’s still chattering.
The song doesn’t stop until I pick him up and hold him and recite for the thousandth time how loved and appreciated he is.
Sometimes…when life has worn us out…what we really want is scooped up in the eternal arms and held…reassured that we are loved and we matter.
Some miracles would be nice right now…some comfort would help me persevere until they come.
My godson Trey has been my legs for the last few months as I can only walk a short distance.
It made a huge difference for me in caring for myself and my mom.
Trey broke his foot in two places the other night, so now, neither one of us can walk.
He can’t drive now, either.
His mental state is fragile…his depression manifests in rage.
His grandmother is seriously ill and at the mercy of a broken health system, my mom is sliding deeper into the delusions of dementia and Trey’s mom is trying to care for all of the above while working twelve hour days.
Everyone is about to break.
Again, thank all who chirp toward heaven for us…remember Liam as well because if anything happened to him…
I am praying for you and your famil, especially that others will come to your aid as you and your godson have so often for others.
And, regarding cars and their vocalizations- my neighbor had work done on her roof this morning. As they were setting up the equipment, Felix started to growl and race to all the windows. I’ve never observed that height of vigilance from him before, but the homestead must be protected!
He is now sleeping off his valiant escapade in the bathroom sink.
Michael – I apologize for taking this in a weird direction. Here is my “elevator pitch”:
Some of the key people who Congress listened to in the hearings are also consultants who have appeared on History Channel’s “Ancient Aliens” and “The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch”. They represent former government/military staff who are True Believers in UFOs, etc.
At the heart of what I will call the UFO Religion is the belief that aliens seeded or genetically created human beings. Ancient Aliens explains all the myths and religions of history.
And now our own congress and pentagon is taking them seriously and an uncritically. For what reason is beyond me.
“Very brief thoughts on the UAP hearing. A new religious movement was exploited as a disinformation and psychological warfare tool during the Cold War, became a much larger religious movement, and is being exploited as a disinformation and psychological warfare tool. While it’s clear who is driving the current push, fueled by their religion and cheered on by the defense and entertainment industries, other organizations are watching, benefitting from and making the most of what is going on. All of them are human, not all of them are friendly.”
“Texas troopers employed by Greg Abbott’s border patrol initiative were instructed to push children into the Rio Grande and deny migrants water in extreme heat, according to emails sent by a state employee.”
—- From The Guardian —
I wouldn’t wanna’ be in Abbott’s shoes on Judgement Day for all the tea in China.
My cat loves sleeping in the bathroom sink, especially in the summer! He has three bathroom sinks to choose from, but his favorite is the second one in my bathroom (he kindly leaves the other one for me). He just moved to the sink for his long afternoon nap.
Trust you have a nice neighbor who can bring you some gas. That is so frustrating!
Ok. I’ve asked this before, but is there any archeological evidence of the Jewish captivity in Egypt or the Exodus? With 600k people traversing a desert you think they’d find some pottery shards or something.
It’s mentioned in the Bible as an historical fact but you’d think there’d be some forensic evidence to corroborate the scriptures.
Does the fact there is no evidence ever give you cause for pause?
“the biblical writers invented the idea that the Israelites lived in Egypt in order to impel them to maintain their distinctiveness in Canaan. And the story of servitude in Egypt is an allegory of servitude to Egypt. Our ancestors, among others, did perform forced labor for Egyptian taskmasters, but they were never slaves in Egypt.”
God’s Word is the evidence. Would it surprise anyone that a nation (Egypt) would do everything it could to erase any evidence of its greatest national embarrassment?
The theology of the NT is founded on God’s redemption of Israel from slavery. I don’t think Christian theology would stand if you reject the slavery of Israel in Egypt.
I’m with Jean on this. I’ll believe the scriptures on this before I take “a Jewish publication.” I’ve always been under the impression the pyramids took an incredible workforce to build (unless it was UFO’s as some claim) so the idea that the Jew just signed up for good pay to serve Pharaoh, is a bit of a stretch. I’ll go with the holy scriptures.
The proposal that there are no archaeological signs of an exodus and that it’s a founding narrative is not particularly new. It’s more controversial to argue, as Niels Peter Lemche has, that the Hebrew Bible is most plausibly Hellenistic literature that may not have been finalized until the Herodian period and that there’s hardly any evidence any of the kings in the Hebrew Bible existed except for, for instance Omri and Ahab. https://www.equinoxpub.com/home/back-reason/
I’m not sure I agree with where a few of the minimalists go on certain confessional issues but they are needful reading if you want to get a clearer grasp of the range of scholarly opinion about the development of biblical literature. The minimalist stance assumes that nothing in the biblical literature happened as a historical event unless you can find archaeological evidence for it. Ergo, any stories about camels from the era of the patriarchs is a literary construct because camel bones didn’t show up until the 8th C. BCE, for instance, if memory serves.
Lemche pointed out that one of the ironies of contemporary politics is that there are Jewish and pro-Israel groups who have literally no problem conceding that Abraham never existed and Moses never existed but questioning the Davidic monarchy or that there were ever twelve tribes identifiable as such in the entire history of Judaism is scandalous. I think I can get why, because after so many millennia of European anti-semitism it’s hard not to worry that contemporary minimalism from European scholars can come across as a variant on Lutheran screeds against Jews, even if that’s not how they’re meant to be received. It’s a little tough to just say that “Moses” is like “King Arthur” and leave it at that even if some minimalists regard that as a real option.
But I’m not sure I can wade further into the minimalist/maximalist stuff. Maybe others here at Phx Pr know more on that set of topics and can chime in.
Jean
“ God’s Word is the evidence. Would it surprise anyone that a nation (Egypt) would do everything it could to erase any evidence of its greatest national embarrassment?”
Maybe but with over a million Jews who would have lived in Egypt for 430 years or so, you’d think there would be some physical evidence corroborating that fact. But also there you’d think there would be some physical evidence of the exodus
Officerhoppy,
Six million Jews were murdered in Europe from 1933 to 1945 and some will still say there’s no physical evidence, and that it never really happened.
And that was very recent in world history.
I’m not surprised though, anti-Semitism is as virulent as the covid virus.
I used to care very much about the topic, and I do think you can find archaeological evidence to corroborate many points in the story. The problem with the evidence available is the timing. It doesn’t seem, when observing the scant evidence, that things happened at the time the bible claims , or in the order that the bible claims. That didn’t bother me, as I assumed the old testament writers were more concerned with the message than detailing a step by step history.
The pattern seems to go in archaeology, that if the bible says it and we don’t currently have hard archaeological evidence, then it couldn’t have happened. All made up. But, then we look in the right places and we start to understand the evidence better. For instance, it was once common belief that Pilate never existed. Just in the last generation, we’ve discovered evidence that he did exist, and that he carried pretty much the exact role that the bible claims he did.
I think its safe to say that more or less, not counting the supernatural events because those can’t be verified, that the OT narrative is correct. My guess is that certain events happened earlier or later than a literal reading of the text would suggest, and that there may be some problems with the linear sequence of events, but that the events definitely happened.
Strictly following hard evidence, the most convincing case is that the Jewish history was invented during the Babylonian exile.
But that doesn’t make logical sense if you really think about it. Where were the people in exile from? How did someone disseminate the false information and convince people of its truth, when many of these people would have obviously known better. No, these stories were obviously around for generations before the exile, even if they were only recorded then. The hearers in exile would have had to say, “yes, that’s the way we were taught”, for the story to catch on.
That in itself doesn’t verify the truth of the stories, only that they must have existed much, much early than we can pin down scientifically.
“Maybe but with over a million Jews who would have lived in Egypt for 430 years or so, you’d think there would be some physical evidence corroborating that fact. But also there you’d think there would be some physical evidence of the exodus”
Let’s think about this from the standpoint of the Egyptians and pre-Moses history:
A small family immigrated from Cannan because of a terrible Famine. Likely other Caananites also immigrated to Egypt. Many of them stayed and settled permanently in Egypt. There’s really nothing to write about for most of that history, is there?
What was the religion of Isaac’s family. They were not yet given the name of Yaweh, and the Bible says they also worshed the gods of Egypt. (Josh 24:14). They may not have exhibited any distinctive religious traditions or rituals. We know they were given circumcision, but historians indicate that circumcision was also practiced in Cannan by other ethnic groups.
What I’m trying to say is that although the Bible may give the impression that their is an ethnically distinct group of Israelites in Egypt, from the Egyptian perspective they may have been viewed as an unremarkable group of semites who immigrated to Egypt at some point and who would have blended in rather easily with all the other semites who were living in Egypt.
There is archeological evidence of semetic people living in Egypt. Joseph identifies a group of semetic traders called the Hyksos as the Jews. There’s a fair amount of evidence of the Hyksos, although archeology are divided on whether they are the Jews of the Bible.
The Exodus event is certainly a momentous event. I can understand why that event, viewed from the Egyptian perspective as a national tragedy and embarrasement, would have been covered up. I don’t know what kind of evidence you would look for. If the Israelites traveled on existing trade routes, they would have used roads that already existed. If God supplied them with food, then they were not (as even the Bible testified) butchering their herds and flocks for food. God also supplied their water.
I choose to believe the Biblical account of Israel’s enslavement and their eventual Exodus out of Egypt, even though there’s no archeological ‘proof’ of the same.
I believe it by ‘faith’, not that it can be ‘proven’ like say the square root of two is not a rational number.
“THE BIG REVELATION of the last two weeks is that forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history.
Many husbands and wives with faith are asking whether the institutions and communities that have helped them preserve their own faith, still exist for their children.
A new book, “The Great Dechurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back?” written by Jim Davis, a pastor at an evangelical church in Orlando, and Michael Graham, a writer with the Gospel Coalition, draws on surveys of more than 7,000 Americans by the political scientists Ryan Burge and Paul Djupe, attempting to explain why people have left churches–or “dechurched,” in the book’s lingo–and what, if anything, can be done to get some people to come back.
The book raises an intriguing possibility: What if the problem isn’t that churches are asking too much of their members, but that they aren’t asking nearly enough?
The Great Dechurching finds that religious abuse and more general moral corruption in churches have driven people away. This is, of course, an indictment of the failures of many leaders who did not address abuse in their church. But Davis and Graham also find that a much larger share of those who have left church have done so for more banal reasons.
The book suggests that the defining problem driving out most people who leave is … just how American life works in the 21st century.
Contemporary America simply isn’t set up to promote mutuality, care, or common life. Rather, it is designed to maximize individual accomplishment as defined by professional and financial success. Such a system leaves precious little time or energy for forms of community that don’t contribute to one’s own professional life or, as one ages, the professional prospects of one’s children. Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.
The theologian Stanley Hauerwas captured the problem well when he said that “pastoral care has become obsessed with the personal wounds of people in advanced industrial societies who have discovered that their lives lack meaning.” The difficulty is that many of the wounds and aches provoked by our current order aren’t of a sort that can be managed or life-hacked away. They are resolved only by changing one’s life, by becoming a radically different sort of person belonging to a radically different sort of community.”
Look, if someone wrote a play just to glorify
What’s stronger than hate, would they not arrange the stage
To look as if the hero came too late he’s almost in defeat
It’s looking like the Evil side will win, so on the Edge
Of every seat, from the moment that the whole thing begins
It is Love who makes the mortar
And it’s love who stacked these stones
And it’s love who made the stage here
Although it looks like we’re alone
In this scene set in shadows
Like the night is here to stay
There is evil cast around us
But it’s love that wrote the play…
For in this darkness love can show the way
As a police officer, I just followed the evidence and drew conclusions from that. That thinking has also been incorporated into my theological life and the study of scripture.
I don’t doubt the Bible as historically accurate. I just wonder why there is no physical evidence of such a significant event as the Jews time in Egypt or the Exodus.
We should always ask questions.
Many do not like asking these questions because the ‘wrong” answers would change the way they read the Bible.
It doesn’t matter to me if the OT stories are not historically true…they point to theological truths that lead to Jesus…who we have lots of historical evidence for.
“if the story is false at all levels then so is the story of Jesus.” This statement is only accurate if one opts for an inerrant, infallible view of the Bible. This casts the Bible in a mold it doesn’t even claim for itself. I do not hold to the inerrant view of the Bible, but fully believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior, the Lord of all. I recognize the old testament is difficult to sync & I am open to alternative views to the narratives and accounts therein. One of the most troublesome aspects of the OT is its inconsistent portrayal of God–which dogs Christian apologists daily. The gymnastics one must do to take a contorted text and make it a cohesive whole, all without error or issue, is monumental and I have yet to read or hear an explanation that answers more questions than it raises. Yet, in Jesus, we hear if you have seen Jesus, you see God. The clearest representation of God the Father is in the person and character of Jesus as seen in the Gospels. (another area of difficult sync)
I know this may ruffle some feathers, but that is OK. I am a work in process and am confident in my faith and standing. I am unwilling to accept the binary “in or out” “believe all or none” or “black vs. white” portrayals of systems and positions.
“Lurker to put it “politly” nuuutsssss
You will find dedicated Christians with stories to tell you – IF you will listen”
Miriam, you weren’t “polite.”
Please reread the post and listen to what is there. Did you visit the site of a man who questions the Exodus and decided to actually try and answer those questions?
Did you catch “false at all levels…” and then ask yourself what that may mean?
I think you just wanted to criticize.
Filistine did a good job of expressing his ideas, thank you.
Finally, a news media article skeptical of the UAP Hearings.
“For the past several years, Grusch has been working alongside a network of government-adjacent UFO believers (many now working for defense contractors or UFO think tanks) who have been sources in stories about flying saucers and dead aliens across the media and in the halls of Congress. You might have seen some of them on cable UFO shows like “The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch,” in which a former Pentagon UFO analyst who served on the task force that helped write the government’s 2021 UFO report now leads a reality TV crew hunting harmful, disembodied quantum “hitchhiker” entities, one of which he claims attached itself to him. It would be funny, except that the Pentagon regularly employs believers in space ghosts and Congress listens to them.”
“Grusch may well be telling the truth about hearing these stories, but the stories were old when “The X-Files” was new. Congress must do better than take them at face value.”
I first heard this author interviewed on the late Michael Heiser’s podcast years ago, for those of you familiar with Heiser.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/opinions/ufo-testimony-aliens-congress-credulous-colavito
UFO’s ? God’s or the Devil’s …… dunno
Miriam – There is deception at work, natural and supernatural.
“It’s all yours for the week…family and health issues are going to keep ,me offline for the most part…”
This is a very unusual post. I wish you, Michael, God’s grace and comfort throughout the demands and circumstances of this week.
Thank you, Jean.
I have too many trials at the moment to write anything worth reading…sometimes one has to admit they are whipped for a while.
I covet any prayers for myself and my family…especially my godson.
I am praying for you, Michael. Everyday ! ! !
Praying for you and yours, my friend. The Lord be with you and give you peace.
Michael, praying fervently for you, Trey and all your loved ones. Please Lord, have mercy.
praying for you Michael and all of your family
Michael…praying for you & your family.
Sending out love to our friend Michael and all his loved ones, human and otherwise.
O Father of mercies and God of all comfort, our only help in
time of need: We humbly beseech thee to behold, visit, and
relieve thy servant Michael for whom our prayers are desired.
Look upon him with the eyes of thy mercy; comfort him with
a sense of thy goodness; preserve him from the temptations
of the enemy; and give him patience under his affliction. In
thy good time, restore him to health, and enable him to lead
the residue of his life in thy fear, and to thy glory; and grant
that finally he may dwell with thee in life everlasting; through
Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
(BCP)
Thanks to all for the prayers and the kind words.
This too shall pass, but not quickly or painlessly.
Liam, my cat, is very verbal when he’s coming back in the house. You can hear him from some distance off. He has quite the array of intonations and inflections…some sound like chirping, some like crying, some like feline singing, and some a little louder to make sure you hear him and understand that he needs something.
He gets real loud when he walks in…and my assumption is that he wants food, or water or treats….and sometimes I’m right.
Lately though, I quickly provide all those things and he’s still chattering.
The song doesn’t stop until I pick him up and hold him and recite for the thousandth time how loved and appreciated he is.
Sometimes…when life has worn us out…what we really want is scooped up in the eternal arms and held…reassured that we are loved and we matter.
Some miracles would be nice right now…some comfort would help me persevere until they come.
That’s what all the noise is about…
In Jesus name, amen.
Duane,
How many times have we prayed that prayer for others?
I love those words and receive them in hope.
My godson Trey has been my legs for the last few months as I can only walk a short distance.
It made a huge difference for me in caring for myself and my mom.
Trey broke his foot in two places the other night, so now, neither one of us can walk.
He can’t drive now, either.
His mental state is fragile…his depression manifests in rage.
His grandmother is seriously ill and at the mercy of a broken health system, my mom is sliding deeper into the delusions of dementia and Trey’s mom is trying to care for all of the above while working twelve hour days.
Everyone is about to break.
Again, thank all who chirp toward heaven for us…remember Liam as well because if anything happened to him…
Enough about me…there are other topics of more interest.
I don’t know about the UFO thing…I suppose it’s possible.
If we start getting messages that contradict the faith, I’ll know exactly what the phenomenon is…
Michael,
I am praying for you and your famil, especially that others will come to your aid as you and your godson have so often for others.
And, regarding cars and their vocalizations- my neighbor had work done on her roof this morning. As they were setting up the equipment, Felix started to growl and race to all the windows. I’ve never observed that height of vigilance from him before, but the homestead must be protected!
He is now sleeping off his valiant escapade in the bathroom sink.
Michael – I apologize for taking this in a weird direction. Here is my “elevator pitch”:
Some of the key people who Congress listened to in the hearings are also consultants who have appeared on History Channel’s “Ancient Aliens” and “The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch”. They represent former government/military staff who are True Believers in UFOs, etc.
At the heart of what I will call the UFO Religion is the belief that aliens seeded or genetically created human beings. Ancient Aliens explains all the myths and religions of history.
And now our own congress and pentagon is taking them seriously and an uncritically. For what reason is beyond me.
WELL
Last nght someone siphoned all gas out of my car. NOW I’m dead in the carport… sigh
Terrly, ” For what reason is beyond me.”
Me too
Linn, in the bathroom sink?
that is verrry funny
Miriam
Aliens?
Mark Pilkington (Writer/Director of “Mirage Men”)
“Very brief thoughts on the UAP hearing. A new religious movement was exploited as a disinformation and psychological warfare tool during the Cold War, became a much larger religious movement, and is being exploited as a disinformation and psychological warfare tool. While it’s clear who is driving the current push, fueled by their religion and cheered on by the defense and entertainment industries, other organizations are watching, benefitting from and making the most of what is going on. All of them are human, not all of them are friendly.”
That’s my last post on this.
“Texas troopers employed by Greg Abbott’s border patrol initiative were instructed to push children into the Rio Grande and deny migrants water in extreme heat, according to emails sent by a state employee.”
—- From The Guardian —
I wouldn’t wanna’ be in Abbott’s shoes on Judgement Day for all the tea in China.
officerhoppy 🙂
Em,
My cat loves sleeping in the bathroom sink, especially in the summer! He has three bathroom sinks to choose from, but his favorite is the second one in my bathroom (he kindly leaves the other one for me). He just moved to the sink for his long afternoon nap.
Trust you have a nice neighbor who can bring you some gas. That is so frustrating!
Ok. I’ve asked this before, but is there any archeological evidence of the Jewish captivity in Egypt or the Exodus? With 600k people traversing a desert you think they’d find some pottery shards or something.
It’s mentioned in the Bible as an historical fact but you’d think there’d be some forensic evidence to corroborate the scriptures.
Does the fact there is no evidence ever give you cause for pause?
From a Jewish publication:
“the biblical writers invented the idea that the Israelites lived in Egypt in order to impel them to maintain their distinctiveness in Canaan. And the story of servitude in Egypt is an allegory of servitude to Egypt. Our ancestors, among others, did perform forced labor for Egyptian taskmasters, but they were never slaves in Egypt.”
Officerhoppy,
Two observations:
God’s Word is the evidence. Would it surprise anyone that a nation (Egypt) would do everything it could to erase any evidence of its greatest national embarrassment?
The theology of the NT is founded on God’s redemption of Israel from slavery. I don’t think Christian theology would stand if you reject the slavery of Israel in Egypt.
I’m with Jean on this. I’ll believe the scriptures on this before I take “a Jewish publication.” I’ve always been under the impression the pyramids took an incredible workforce to build (unless it was UFO’s as some claim) so the idea that the Jew just signed up for good pay to serve Pharaoh, is a bit of a stretch. I’ll go with the holy scriptures.
There is some evidence though it’s debatable.
BAR is not a religiously affiliated organization.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-fiction/
From my perspective, the historicity of Hebrew mythology is irrelevant…the stories are there to teach us about God, not archeology.
I don’t think the biblical creation story is literally true, but the truths it teaches us are.
Officerhoppy, you might want to check out this book
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300254907/the-origins-of-judaism/
The proposal that there are no archaeological signs of an exodus and that it’s a founding narrative is not particularly new. It’s more controversial to argue, as Niels Peter Lemche has, that the Hebrew Bible is most plausibly Hellenistic literature that may not have been finalized until the Herodian period and that there’s hardly any evidence any of the kings in the Hebrew Bible existed except for, for instance Omri and Ahab.
https://www.equinoxpub.com/home/back-reason/
I’m not sure I agree with where a few of the minimalists go on certain confessional issues but they are needful reading if you want to get a clearer grasp of the range of scholarly opinion about the development of biblical literature. The minimalist stance assumes that nothing in the biblical literature happened as a historical event unless you can find archaeological evidence for it. Ergo, any stories about camels from the era of the patriarchs is a literary construct because camel bones didn’t show up until the 8th C. BCE, for instance, if memory serves.
Lemche pointed out that one of the ironies of contemporary politics is that there are Jewish and pro-Israel groups who have literally no problem conceding that Abraham never existed and Moses never existed but questioning the Davidic monarchy or that there were ever twelve tribes identifiable as such in the entire history of Judaism is scandalous. I think I can get why, because after so many millennia of European anti-semitism it’s hard not to worry that contemporary minimalism from European scholars can come across as a variant on Lutheran screeds against Jews, even if that’s not how they’re meant to be received. It’s a little tough to just say that “Moses” is like “King Arthur” and leave it at that even if some minimalists regard that as a real option.
But I’m not sure I can wade further into the minimalist/maximalist stuff. Maybe others here at Phx Pr know more on that set of topics and can chime in.
I appreciate the conversation
Jean
“ God’s Word is the evidence. Would it surprise anyone that a nation (Egypt) would do everything it could to erase any evidence of its greatest national embarrassment?”
Maybe but with over a million Jews who would have lived in Egypt for 430 years or so, you’d think there would be some physical evidence corroborating that fact. But also there you’d think there would be some physical evidence of the exodus
WTH
thanks for the book references
Michael, something out of nothing? Seems to me our God could do that !
Officerhoppy,
Six million Jews were murdered in Europe from 1933 to 1945 and some will still say there’s no physical evidence, and that it never really happened.
And that was very recent in world history.
I’m not surprised though, anti-Semitism is as virulent as the covid virus.
I love the question Hoppy. Thanks for thinking.
I used to care very much about the topic, and I do think you can find archaeological evidence to corroborate many points in the story. The problem with the evidence available is the timing. It doesn’t seem, when observing the scant evidence, that things happened at the time the bible claims , or in the order that the bible claims. That didn’t bother me, as I assumed the old testament writers were more concerned with the message than detailing a step by step history.
The pattern seems to go in archaeology, that if the bible says it and we don’t currently have hard archaeological evidence, then it couldn’t have happened. All made up. But, then we look in the right places and we start to understand the evidence better. For instance, it was once common belief that Pilate never existed. Just in the last generation, we’ve discovered evidence that he did exist, and that he carried pretty much the exact role that the bible claims he did.
I think its safe to say that more or less, not counting the supernatural events because those can’t be verified, that the OT narrative is correct. My guess is that certain events happened earlier or later than a literal reading of the text would suggest, and that there may be some problems with the linear sequence of events, but that the events definitely happened.
Strictly following hard evidence, the most convincing case is that the Jewish history was invented during the Babylonian exile.
But that doesn’t make logical sense if you really think about it. Where were the people in exile from? How did someone disseminate the false information and convince people of its truth, when many of these people would have obviously known better. No, these stories were obviously around for generations before the exile, even if they were only recorded then. The hearers in exile would have had to say, “yes, that’s the way we were taught”, for the story to catch on.
That in itself doesn’t verify the truth of the stories, only that they must have existed much, much early than we can pin down scientifically.
Officerhoppy,
“Maybe but with over a million Jews who would have lived in Egypt for 430 years or so, you’d think there would be some physical evidence corroborating that fact. But also there you’d think there would be some physical evidence of the exodus”
Let’s think about this from the standpoint of the Egyptians and pre-Moses history:
A small family immigrated from Cannan because of a terrible Famine. Likely other Caananites also immigrated to Egypt. Many of them stayed and settled permanently in Egypt. There’s really nothing to write about for most of that history, is there?
What was the religion of Isaac’s family. They were not yet given the name of Yaweh, and the Bible says they also worshed the gods of Egypt. (Josh 24:14). They may not have exhibited any distinctive religious traditions or rituals. We know they were given circumcision, but historians indicate that circumcision was also practiced in Cannan by other ethnic groups.
What I’m trying to say is that although the Bible may give the impression that their is an ethnically distinct group of Israelites in Egypt, from the Egyptian perspective they may have been viewed as an unremarkable group of semites who immigrated to Egypt at some point and who would have blended in rather easily with all the other semites who were living in Egypt.
There is archeological evidence of semetic people living in Egypt. Joseph identifies a group of semetic traders called the Hyksos as the Jews. There’s a fair amount of evidence of the Hyksos, although archeology are divided on whether they are the Jews of the Bible.
The Exodus event is certainly a momentous event. I can understand why that event, viewed from the Egyptian perspective as a national tragedy and embarrasement, would have been covered up. I don’t know what kind of evidence you would look for. If the Israelites traveled on existing trade routes, they would have used roads that already existed. If God supplied them with food, then they were not (as even the Bible testified) butchering their herds and flocks for food. God also supplied their water.
In my comment above, where a wrote “Joseph identifies a group…” I mean to write Josephus….
I choose to believe the Biblical account of Israel’s enslavement and their eventual Exodus out of Egypt, even though there’s no archeological ‘proof’ of the same.
I believe it by ‘faith’, not that it can be ‘proven’ like say the square root of two is not a rational number.
there are in Red(?) Sea chariots…….
“THE BIG REVELATION of the last two weeks is that forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history.
Many husbands and wives with faith are asking whether the institutions and communities that have helped them preserve their own faith, still exist for their children.
A new book, “The Great Dechurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back?” written by Jim Davis, a pastor at an evangelical church in Orlando, and Michael Graham, a writer with the Gospel Coalition, draws on surveys of more than 7,000 Americans by the political scientists Ryan Burge and Paul Djupe, attempting to explain why people have left churches–or “dechurched,” in the book’s lingo–and what, if anything, can be done to get some people to come back.
The book raises an intriguing possibility: What if the problem isn’t that churches are asking too much of their members, but that they aren’t asking nearly enough?
The Great Dechurching finds that religious abuse and more general moral corruption in churches have driven people away. This is, of course, an indictment of the failures of many leaders who did not address abuse in their church. But Davis and Graham also find that a much larger share of those who have left church have done so for more banal reasons.
The book suggests that the defining problem driving out most people who leave is … just how American life works in the 21st century.
Contemporary America simply isn’t set up to promote mutuality, care, or common life. Rather, it is designed to maximize individual accomplishment as defined by professional and financial success. Such a system leaves precious little time or energy for forms of community that don’t contribute to one’s own professional life or, as one ages, the professional prospects of one’s children. Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.
The theologian Stanley Hauerwas captured the problem well when he said that “pastoral care has become obsessed with the personal wounds of people in advanced industrial societies who have discovered that their lives lack meaning.” The difficulty is that many of the wounds and aches provoked by our current order aren’t of a sort that can be managed or life-hacked away. They are resolved only by changing one’s life, by becoming a radically different sort of person belonging to a radically different sort of community.”
David Virtue
Duane,
I stopped preparation for my message today to amen this post…the authors have nailed it.
I have a lot more to say than that…what I’ve warned of for two decades is now reality…
By the way, folks…we are also celebrating Duanes birthday today…grateful to God for him…
Happy Birthday Duane!
Paul Smith, brother of Chuck Smith…has passed away.
Happy birthday Duane! God bless you!!!
Re: Paul Smith:
https://www.michaelnewnham.com/?p=18200
Happy Birthday Duane!
Birthday blessings, Duane!
Great post too.
H. Bday, Dr. DUANE ! ! !
A song by David Wilcox. I’ve always loved it
Look, if someone wrote a play just to glorify
What’s stronger than hate, would they not arrange the stage
To look as if the hero came too late he’s almost in defeat
It’s looking like the Evil side will win, so on the Edge
Of every seat, from the moment that the whole thing begins
It is Love who makes the mortar
And it’s love who stacked these stones
And it’s love who made the stage here
Although it looks like we’re alone
In this scene set in shadows
Like the night is here to stay
There is evil cast around us
But it’s love that wrote the play…
For in this darkness love can show the way
“For God so loved the world……..”
Exodus evidence?
https://thinkingmanfilms.com
Just one comment, if the story is false at all levels then so is the story of Jesus.
Lurker to put it “politly” nuuutsssss
You will find dedicated Christians with stories to tell you – IF you will listen
As a police officer, I just followed the evidence and drew conclusions from that. That thinking has also been incorporated into my theological life and the study of scripture.
I don’t doubt the Bible as historically accurate. I just wonder why there is no physical evidence of such a significant event as the Jews time in Egypt or the Exodus.
No sin to ask question
We should always ask questions.
Many do not like asking these questions because the ‘wrong” answers would change the way they read the Bible.
It doesn’t matter to me if the OT stories are not historically true…they point to theological truths that lead to Jesus…who we have lots of historical evidence for.
I dunno for sure, but to seems to me, in my conversations with people, that many Christian’s never think beyond the fact that Jesus love them.
They’ve never really examined their beliefs.
They swallow hook line and sinker anything that comes from the pulpit
And some are afraid to think critically for (as Michael said) for fear of where it will lead them.
“if the story is false at all levels then so is the story of Jesus.” This statement is only accurate if one opts for an inerrant, infallible view of the Bible. This casts the Bible in a mold it doesn’t even claim for itself. I do not hold to the inerrant view of the Bible, but fully believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior, the Lord of all. I recognize the old testament is difficult to sync & I am open to alternative views to the narratives and accounts therein. One of the most troublesome aspects of the OT is its inconsistent portrayal of God–which dogs Christian apologists daily. The gymnastics one must do to take a contorted text and make it a cohesive whole, all without error or issue, is monumental and I have yet to read or hear an explanation that answers more questions than it raises. Yet, in Jesus, we hear if you have seen Jesus, you see God. The clearest representation of God the Father is in the person and character of Jesus as seen in the Gospels. (another area of difficult sync)
I know this may ruffle some feathers, but that is OK. I am a work in process and am confident in my faith and standing. I am unwilling to accept the binary “in or out” “believe all or none” or “black vs. white” portrayals of systems and positions.
fil,
Amen and amen…well said, my friend.
I will ruffle what feathers are left. 🙂
“Lurker to put it “politly” nuuutsssss
You will find dedicated Christians with stories to tell you – IF you will listen”
Miriam, you weren’t “polite.”
Please reread the post and listen to what is there. Did you visit the site of a man who questions the Exodus and decided to actually try and answer those questions?
Did you catch “false at all levels…” and then ask yourself what that may mean?
I think you just wanted to criticize.
Filistine did a good job of expressing his ideas, thank you.