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  1. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Is this the template for the liturgy in the Evangelical Church?


  2. Believe says:


    This cartoon takes on a literal meaning for me.

    So true.

    Hayward rocks.

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    Even unwittingly I am part of this nonsense…..”that in all things He might have the preeminence”

  4. centorian says:

    Great cartoon…. and accurate in it’s depiction, unless of course, it happens to be your favorite mega-monster.

  5. Lutheran says:

    Great cartoon.

    We’re spared this in the Lutheran Church — not aware of any superstars in our circuits. It just ain’t a superstar kind of church culture.

  6. Believe says:

    MLD…that vid was hilarious and well done…very apropos.

  7. Believe says:

    I’ve got to confess, though, I am being a little hypocritical. I get bored to death at more staid traditional churches…so while I’m recognizing the ridiculousness in some of the more modern “showy” approaches…I like a bit of it.

    Liturgical situations, old hymns, monotonous teachings…I confess…I get distracted and bored and lose interest…so they aren’t edifying to me.

    I participate and get engaged in a more dynamic setting.

    Certainly, there has to be a balance. Dunno.

  8. Michael says:

    “A number of Lighthouse Trails’ readers contacted us over the last couple days sending us copies of an email they each received from an undisclosed personnel at Calvary Chapel Albuquerque. The form letter states:
    Thank you for contacting us here at The Connection and thanks for writing to Pastor Skip. We always love to hear from you. The conference is not a Calvary conference. The conference is being put on by Worship Leader Magazine using our facility – just like CAPE, Home school graduation, funerals, etc. Therefore, Leonard Sweet is not speaking at “Skip’s Church”. [LT: Heitzig is one of the speakers at this event.] He is part of a conference using Calvary’s facilities. Leonard Sweet will attend the conference but WILL NOT BE SPEAKING. It is our prayer that God will continue to reveal Himself to you through His Word as you seek to know Him.
    Love in Christ,
    Connection Communications
    Because the National Worship Leader Conference website still maintains that Leonard Sweet will indeed be speaking at Calvary Chapel Albuquerque, an official public notice from CCA stating that Leonard Sweet will not be speaking there could help clear up the present confusion. Just as important, a statement explaining to the body of Christ why they have decided to remove him from the platform would be important. In a day and age when so many Christian leaders are sending out mixed messages to the Church regarding spiritual deception, those wanting to maintain biblical integrity need to be forthright and clear in what they believe and stand for. And regardless of what denomination or movement this confusion is occurring in, those particular leaders do have a biblical obligation to the entire body of Jesus Christ. This is not Lighthouse Trails saying this – this is what the Bible requests of leaders and pastors.”

  9. centorian says:

    it isn’t either/or, that is, liturgical or showy…. some evangelicals have forged their own liturgy, some liturgical services I’ve been in were very showy. there are other alternatives, but I think it boils down to the heart of the church, particularly the pastoral leadership

    no personalities in the Lutheran church? possibly true, but they import them from other part of the Body.

  10. Michael says:

    “Despite those of us in this field of ministry being branded with the derogatory slur “ODMs,” which essentially makes us the new lepers, LTR is absolutely correct. And this is becoming a good example of the very real reason Jesus has sent forth online apologetics and discernment ministries.

    Of course I can only speak for myself, however, my local church has no doubt that God called its Apprising Ministries to help pioneer this needed field of ministry because I was quite literally given both this website as well as the one for Christian Reasearch Network. And then this morning we received the below email from an AM reader:

    I looked up the National Worship Leader Conference speakers. Leonard Sweet AND Skip Heitzig are listed as speakers. What is Skip’s picture and name doing there if he is not a part of it?

    So what is this garbage about Skip just letting them use his church? Someone is not telling the truth!

    Sure enough, as you can see below, still featured on the National Worship Leader Conference Speakers page as being NWLC Southwest is Leonard Sweet—a leading theologian in the Emerging Church—but now we see Skip Heitzig himself listed there as well: ”

  11. centorian says:

    It is rather funny to see LHT hold “Skip’s church” to the fire…

  12. Michael says:

    Skip screwed himself royally…now he has to publicly diss Sweet or the wrath still falls.

    Wonder where the ODM’s were when something important went down in ABQ….

  13. Em says:

    “no personalities in the Lutheran church” 🙂 “It just ain’t a superstar kind of church culture.”

    i sense something is wrong there, ….. but not sure what 😉

    guess i’ll go over and visit Erunner

  14. Michael says:

    This is turning out exactly as I said it would…Skip should have listened to me. 🙂

  15. Michael says:

    “Someone is not telling the truth!”

    You suppose?

  16. BrianD says:

    I wonder what else about CoA the ODMers would like to help fix?

  17. james tiberius kirk says:

    Emerging, CCABQ, liturgical, evangelical, TEOTWAWKI (“the end of the world”…)…

    And I just started to read Frank Viola’s (with George Barna) “Pagan Christianity”….anybody seen this “work”?

    Can anyone explain what “their deal” is?

    Sounds like a Quaker congregational meeting where nobody leads or takes responsibility for their house church meetings…

  18. james tiberius kirk says:

    Albuquerque is sooo lawless, and it’s frustrating when the biggest church in this town has neither membership nor, apparently, a pastor who regards church authority highly and does its best to drive the lawlessness out of the “sphere of influence” it has…

  19. Erunner says:

    A great new Christian TV reality series coming your way!! 😯

  20. Nene says:

    Erunner, I just watched the Larson video. Was that you wearing the AARP red T shirt? I think that may be the new craze! It just made me laugh, especially after MLD’s, cool church video.

  21. jlo says:

    From LHT

    “It appears that many of these leaders do not like to be corrected or challenged. The fact that they often revert to vitriolic and untrue statements to sway public opinion is indication that something is amiss. Rather than becoming angry at Lighthouse Trails and other similar ministries, they should be able to scripturally or factually refute our protests, and thus neutralize our concerns. It is as simple as that.”

    Said the pot to the kettle.

  22. Lutheran says:

    no personalities in the Lutheran church? possibly true, but they import them from other part of the Body.


    The Lutheran world is a big one. No one at my church has ever heard of Skippy H, Bob Larson, Lenny Sweet, Brian McLaren, ODMs (thank goodness), or Calvary Chapel, for that matter. I’m sure there’s some spillover some places, but I’m just sayin’…

  23. Em says:

    Lutheran,”The Lutheran world is a big one. No one at my church has ever heard of Skippy H, Bob Larson, Lenny Sweet, Brian McLaren, ODMs (thank goodness), or Calvary Chapel, for that matter.”
    that’s it!!! … youse guys, as my late husband’s uncle would say, are too insular 🙂

  24. Nene says:

    Believe, I completely understand what you mean in your #8. I have to say that by learning, and understanding the reasons behind the liturgical service (from our Lutheran friends here) I have really come to appreciate it’s meaning, and depth. Kind of cool I can say that! 🙂

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t think that you will find many Lutheran pastors on the radio. A good example would be the Lutheran Hour which is one of the oldest Christian radio programs on the air (about 85 yrs).
    Without Googling, does anyone know who the host is?

  26. London says:

    I still seriously think that Mr. Sweet should bail on sitting the bench at Skip’s church and go over to speak at Dread’s.

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The point of the video I posted #1 was not to compare liturgy to evangelicalism BUT to show that evangelicalism has it’s own liturgy (although usually denied) and the video shows this to be a template for evangelical liturgy.

  28. jlo says:

    and it was funny.

  29. Believe says:

    Skip is caught in an inconsistency…looks and smells like a lie.

    That’s what you get when you try to play politics.

    Michael’s nailed it (as per usual).

  30. Believe says:

    …I like how “technical” they are having to get to explain away the “inconsistency” LOL.

    Classic “Truthiness”…or, as a black and white person likes to call it…a lie.

  31. Believe says:

    MLD…I agree with the point you are making. Evangelicalism does have its own form of liturgy. So, I guess we are liturgical after all. Guess we just use a modern liturgy vs. a traditional liturgy…LOL.

    Missed that point the first time around…but see it clearly now.

  32. Nene says:

    Oh MLD, you are just so dang smart! Hope you are well btw…

    This entire day I will repeat “template for evangelical liturgy” as my mantra/word of the day. Just talking to myself here….I’m meeting Nonnie tonight!! Can’t wait!

  33. Nene says:

    Believe, “modern” seems to be a much better word than “shallow”. 🙂

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    May I recommend The Lutheran Hour (not to be taken literally since it is actually only 30 min) 🙂

  35. Believe says:

    Agreeing with Nene…MLD is really smart. So are many of you. It is often an intellectual oasis for me to participate on here…after a long day of (I’ll be polite)…less intellectually stimulating interaction. 8)

  36. Nene says:

    So who’s the voice of the Lutheran Hour? I put some rose petals on that float once… 😉

  37. Em says:

    i’m formulating the church i want from all i’ve learned from the commenters and pastors here… seriously:
    Sunday morning i want worship and evangelization ending in the invitation to accept Christ for your own personal salvation – period. Preferably conducted from up in the balcony behind me 😉
    the rest of the week, give me classes from as many as have paid their dues and are called and qualified to teach (preferably from behind a curtain or with bags on their heads) –
    ‘us’? we stand up! go out and call and serve whether we’ve got the ‘meet and greet’ gift or are just plodding along doin the best we can – proud of our Savior…
    teach our children to be objective and not allow them to look for the “in” MO??? raise them to be geeks and proud of it (or is that an MO?)
    Geeks! we need more Christian geeks!

    anybody have the gift of weed pulling? i have the gift of work avoidance, glad to share 😉

  38. Nene says:

    Believe, too funny, I’m usually yelling at kids to take out their ear buds. Then I tell them all a how Obama’s kids have to focus on academics. They actually are intrigued…political pop culture does some wonderful things!!

  39. odenfong says:

    Some of my favorite words in scripture: And it came to pass…

  40. Sojourner says:

    I believe this is a cartoon directly from my FORMER church!! What a scream and HOW true it was! Books, tapes, videos, cool-aid… about BOB. Are there a lot of Bobs as pastors? It looks just like where I came from!!! This is toooooooo funny!

  41. Linnea says:

    Michael…your 9:09 post.

    My response– even the money grubbing networks don’t sell add time to those they don’t agree with.

    That form letter response and CCABQ’s response is pathetic. Skip used to teach that you will be indeed miserable if you keep one foot in the world and one foot in God’s kingdom.

    The insidiousness of this is that now the Church is seen blurring the line.

    Matthew 5:13 comes to mind:
    You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

    The question CCABQ seems to be struggling with is the definition of saltiness.

  42. Believe says:

    “The question CCABQ seems to be struggling with is the definition of saltiness.”


    Being moderate and seeking balance is a good thing, IMO.

    BUT, if you play politics and straddle the fence…you get hemorrhoids.

    The Skipper should’ve gathered all the facts about Sweet…had a discussion with him (much like Piper did with Warren)…and then made a solid decision…with a rationale ready to articulate…and stuck to his guns (once he was convinced of the “right thing to do”).

    Instead, he played politics…hoped no one would notice…they did…he had to hedge…then he hedged…has to hedge further…he’s trapped.

    Hemorrhoids. Enjoy!

  43. victorious says:

    I will share a quote from Wade Burleson that I posted on another thread.

    ““When the icon of celebrity worship in the religious right is shattered, and when we begin to simply go about our business of loving people in need of a Savior, only then will the integrity of our lives match the incredibly powerful content of our message of grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. “

  44. Lutheran says:

    youse guys, as my late husband’s uncle would say, are too insular

    Then I guess you’d probably have to say that about Xenia and the EO world, not to mention the many mainline denoms. and the RCC — they’re all insular.

    Hey, being insular is a blessing. We get to ignore a lot of the evangelical sideshow and circus.

    There’s a lot more to the Christian world than the nondenom. crowd. Maybe it’s some of you nondenoms. who are really the insular ones. When’s the last time you attended a Lutheran/Anglican/EO/RCC service, anyway?

  45. Lutheran says:


    Great point.

    I have no idea who the Lutheran Hour speaker is. It was Oswald somebody or other back in the 60s and 70s. It’s been on radio for at least 50 years, I’d guess.

  46. Michael says:

    Skip has been hung by his own petard.

    He’s wanted a piece of the CCM action for a long time and this was a major step forward in his quest.
    Now, he gets to choose between the ODM’s and his new friends…and neither will forgive the choice he makes.

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The Rev Ken Klaus is the speaker on the Lutheran Hour. He is retiring later this year.

  48. Linnea says:

    MLD…just watched your opening salvo… didn’t realize the recipe was so universal to evangelicals 😆 Thanks for sharing!

  49. Linnea says:

    Had to look up petard. My guess was that it might be better to be hung by your own petard than by your own leotard, but as it turns out, not much better.

  50. Nene says:

    Lutheran, Because I allowed my church to think for me, my insular mind set never permitted me to step foot (or back in) any other churches. Man, you should of seen the day I walked into a foursquare church. Actually, I forced myself to go, wanting to see what was inside. I got so scared, I almost ran out. (It was a mild one!)

    The things we continue to learn….and appreciate.

    My classmate in jr high’s had a dad who was a Greek Orthodox priest. I had not been tainted then, and really enjoyed her church, I thought she was lucky.. I wonder how I would of reacted at a later time. Gads, was I programmed….

  51. victorious says:

    In response to the reality that the cartoon describes . . .

    I share this Scripture and my word of introduction for whomever it applies too. . .

    There is a way out of this mess because there is a person to follow, there is strength to overcome because this person is powerful, it begins with a welcome invitation to sit down and partake together of that which truly nourishes and sustains; because this person shares freely the food given to Him by His Father.

    Rev. 3:17-21 “17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

    Jesus takes on the responsibility of His church one by one. . . .

    If the shoe fits, it will help you gain the footing and traction you need to follow.

    Prophesying to myself and others vic,

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Talk about spookey, I had been a Christian about 3 yrs when a friend took us to an Assembly of God church. I about jumped out of my skin – which I guess they would have said “you are in the spirit!” 😉

  53. Em says:

    Lutheran, 😉 why?

    all my in-laws were Lutheran and RCC – was close to the RCCs, the Lutherans, to tell the truth, could have cared less about my immortal soul – must be ‘predestinators’, eh? …but that’s a broad brush and i am content with the status quo, myself – i love all the sincere comments on a much loved Lord here

    i don’t know that i could be called ‘Evangelical,’ but now that i think about it, without ’em there’s a whole lot of us who would never even have considered the Gospel – let alone, realized that it was pertinent to life as we know it – i just realized: I LOVE EVANGELICALS 🙂

  54. Em says:

    never even been to a charismatic gathering either – unless Episcopals count 😉

  55. Believe says:

    Lute, being on the PP is non-insular…and I know you agree is good for all us 🙂

    I’ve had the benefit of being exposed to a lot of different traditions and denominations thanks to other friends and family…and going to a school that was much different than most of my upbringing.

    Plus, my curiousity doesn’t allow me to be too terribly insular.

    Been to Lutheran services, RCC, Episcopalian, Reformed, Pentecostal (very Pentecostal), Presbyterian, Southern Baptist, GARB, AoG, Mennonite, Missionary Alliance, Church of Christ (the Restoration one)…of course CC…and several others.

    Haven’t really been to what would be considered an Emergent Church or Seeker Church, Anglican Church or EO. Guess I’ve got a few to go…been reading Jowett and Stanley and would like to attend an Anglican Church and see what it’s all about. From X’s example, I’d like to attend an EO Church…if the fruit is people like her…there’s got to be something good there. Same for Grendal…if he is Emergent (are you?) could you recommend a good example so I could attend and check you guys out as well?

  56. BrianD says:

    A very good response to the video MLD linked to earlier.

  57. Lutheran says:


    I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Maybe you should slow down and focus a bit if you care about others understanding what you’re trying to say.

    And remember that the term ‘evangelical’ in its original sense means ‘gospel.’ Luther and Lutherans were the ones first called that, not the modern, post-WWII low-church designation here in the US.


    I spent 25 years in various evangelical movements and denoms — 8 or 9, not to mention time in a couple of mainline Protestant churches, including confirmation. This is all before becoming a Lutheran several years ago. I know whereof I speak. And yes, you should attend EO and Anglican services! Good for the soul.

    I guess insularity is in the eye of the beholder. Don’t be fooled by whether a church has a liturgy or not — makes no difference WRT insularity. It’s more of a mindset. I got tired of spending so much time and energy in church activities, speculating about this, that, and the other thing. I’ve gotten much more ‘worldly’ in the good sense of the word since becoming a Lutheran.

    A monastic, insular spirit can erupt in any church or setting. For me it manifested itself most in my time in low-church evangelicalism.

    I guess insular is in the eye of the beholder

  58. Bob says:

    I’ve been to a number of denominations and here are the ones I like:

    Those which are “bananas” about Jesus!

    The one which bore me are those whose service and traditions are more important than their love for Jesus and the showing of that love in how they live. Oh and they don’t have to be a traditional denomination to fall into this category. I have seen in in the Charismatic, Calvary Chapels (actually see it here got strongly), A of G, and lately in the Messianic ones.

    I think what happens is people say, “this is the way to Jesus; you must live, dress, talk, eat, drive, give and more or you’re going to miss Him!”

    I find when people really encounter Jesus things change and you won’t need a tradition to make them do it. Things really take hold when they start to read for themselves the very words of Jesus as recorded in scripture.

    “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.”

    The irony is I’ll bet there are more Muslims who have the words of Mohammad memorized and abiding in them than Christians who know the very words of Jesus. I know I fall short of fully memorizing His words and then having them actually abide in me.

  59. centorian says:

    “Skippy H, Bob Larson, Lenny Sweet, Brian McLaren, ODMs (thank goodness),”

    lol!!!! that’s kinda funny Lutheran..

    Didn’t I read that Sweet spoke at Concordia???

    Other than the Skippy, I heard of all the above through Christian radio or magazines. I served under a worship leader who attended C of A , and I would ask him … who???Skipper? who is Skipper? It would always make me think of that cheap seafood place…

    Your #47 pretty much describes it.

  60. Em says:

    Lutheran wants me to slow down – i do appreciate that anyone here cares exactly what i might mean – so….

    two words that seem to be causing some snags:
    ‘insular’ as in the sense of self-contained and independent, not in the sense of narrow-mindedness and yet … on the blog here much grace is shown all around

    and the other word is ‘evangelical’ – it seems to have many associations and
    interpretations – but, lately, it is too often used scornfully – hence my comment: ” i just realized: I LOVE EVANGELICALS”

    i am now 3 lines over the comment window here on my screen…

  61. Em says:

    i have refrained from ever putting on an instructor’s hat here (it wouldn’t fit) – tried to refrain from dissertations – i just pontificate and opinionate 😉 and exercise restraint as i’m doing right now 🙂
    a lot of spiritual ground is gained on this blog and it is done without my help – God is amazing – pray that i stay my sweet, lazy, hazy self – 😀

  62. Lutheran says:


    You’re right. Sweet did speak at St. Louis. But that’s a group of seminarians. Most laity still, I’d guess, have no idea who he is or care — nothing against the man, but most Lutherans are busy in the trenches, living out their daily vocations.


    If a guy gets hung by his own petard…

    Yow, that’s gotta hurt!


  63. Lutheran says:

    but, lately, it is too often used scornfully – hence my comment: ” i just realized: I LOVE EVANGELICALS”


    If it is used scornfully, it’s exactly because it’s too insular.

    If you love the word EVANGELICALS, it means you love Lutherans. Because the original term is synonymous with Lutheranism.

    If you don’t know that, well, then you might well be, uh…


  64. Em says:

    Lutheran, i didn’t say anything about my ‘feelings’ for Lutherans one way or the othert, did i? lol:

  65. Tim says:

    MLD –
    I love the video…thanks for posting it. 😆

    Em & Lute – re: insular…
    It seems to me that church groups (denominations, affiliations, etc.) are far more insular as a whole than individual Christians. Obviously that’s not a hard & fast rule – but from my experience it seems to be true. CC conferences have mostly CC speakers. I’d imagine Lutheran conferences have mostly Lutheran speakers…& so on & so forth. That’s just natural – it’s part of the reason denominations & like groups exist. Like-minded people fellowship with like-minded people.

    Individuals (on the other hand) tend to venture out much more. I’m probably going to leave some out, but I’ve personally attended at least some type of service at the following churches: CC, Baptist, Pentecostal, Vineyard, Ev Covenant, United Methodist, seeker-sensitive non-denom, Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox, Church of Christ, & Assembly of God. Of course, out of that list there were some I liked & agreed with more than others. 🙂

    And I’m sure you guys (and probably everyone else here) has a similar story.

    Bottom line for me is that I don’t see “insular” as necessarily bad regarding church groups – it’s just good to be stretched as individuals.

  66. Em says:

    Pastor Tim, i didn’t see ‘insular’ as a bad word when i used it – your words are wise, in any case, and true …

    i suspect, hope, we’re all in agreement now

    but i stepped over the line when i put a label on something near and dear to Lutheran, – like making an observation on another person’s child? perhaps…. can’t even remember what prompted the thot

    praying for a blessed Sunday down there in T; TX and wherever the Lutherans gather tomorrow – also

  67. A E A says:

    And whether we want to admit it or not all churches have a liturgy.

    I simply means an order of service.

    We got really wild and changed our liturgy. Instead of opening welcome, prayer, 2 songs, meet and greet, announcements, response reading, prayer, the remaining part of the song service, dismiss Children’s Church and teachers, pray, then the message, final song. Coffee and cookies.

    Now we welcome, pray, meet and greet, announcements, response reading, prayer,All of the song service, dismiss Children’s Church and teachers, pray, then the message, final song. Coffee and cookies.

    Pretty radical.

    Howdy PP folks.
    I just got back from spending a few day in Yosemite, still stoked.

  68. A E A says:

    I’m really glad my name is not Bob. 🙂

  69. Believe says:

    A E A…Yosemite (yo-si-might)…love it! One of my favorite places on earth! Such good memories.

    I don’t know how one could ever visit Yosemite and leave without believing God is.

  70. A E A says:


    It was fabulous.
    Smallish crowds. 75 degree afternoon temps, hiking was good all day.

  71. Believe says:

    …A E A…repenting of jealousy now 8)

  72. Believe says:

    Something I’ve been alluding to on here in past posts about our macro-financial situation here in the U.S.

    We cannot sustain our current trajectory of Sovereign Debt in this country without sever economic consequences (see Greece).

  73. Believe says:

    Practical advice for pastors…be good stewards with regards to your church finances and budget projections.

    Things are going to get much tighter in coming years.

    Our Government must address our Sovereign Debt very soon…and they know it.

    Higher taxes and spending cuts are coming in the next year or two and will hit Main Street very hard (even harder than what we’ve experienced so far).

    High unemployment is with us for an extended period.

    Giving will continue to go down. Plan accordingly.

  74. Em says:

    Believe, we all know it, we just don’t know what to do about it or how it will impact us down here in the masses… i’m noticing grocery staples going nuts – i blinked and a medium jar of applesauce shot up to $1.64 – i don’t buy a lot of pre-prepared foods, so i’m guessing it hasn’t hit there yet – time to share all the cost saving tips we know… things i know we can do without: all baggies and plastic wrap, spray disinfectants,( soap and water and chlorine bleach always did the job in grandmas’ day), big cans of old label coffee over the bagged varieties (keep the air out and they keep a long time). no packaged cereals (waah)… small things like that…time to learn to grow veges and hunt game, i guess…
    but, since you are sounding the warning, what do we do about the big things? savings accounts and sewer systems and transportation and riots in the streets etc.

  75. Em says:

    Believe, i was typing while you posted your #74 … not much help there, tho 🙁

  76. deadmanwalking says:

    The Cartoon is true and sad. I once was getting well known. I used to go to Europe a few times a year, and was often away speaking at various conferences etc.. When I decided to cancel all future speaking engagements because my wife needed me at home, there was a noticeable disappointment in many. They liked having a “well known pastor”. so as much as I always hated the pastor centered church and did all I coiuld to avoid having one, it was what the people wanted. You would think people would be thankful that I would have more time to spend with them, but instead we had a drop in attendance and the church continued to get smaller as time when by. It seems people like to brag about their pastor, I think it makes them feel more important or something. But when I was “just a pastor” there wasn’t much to brag about so they slowly left to find a more important pastor.

    Of course it might have been they never really liked me that much and were glad get rid of me as much as possible 🙂

  77. Tim says:

    Em –
    “praying for a blessed Sunday down there in T; TX ”

    Thank you! May God bless your Sunday worship time as well. 🙂

  78. centorian says:

    Interesting observations. Most of our people are here because they wanted to get away from the cult of personality, yet the backlash which ensues is just as difficult at times to deal with. I had a guy leave because he thought we were acting too much like those “big shot churches”. He no longer attends any church and is living off the fumes of his old Chuck Missler cassettes.

  79. BrianD says:

    Centorian, the church people can be just as maddening as the church leaders. I have to constantly remind myself of this. We’re all capable of screwy, sinful behavior.

  80. BrianD says:

    If this DOES lead to some theaters going out of business…then this could open up venues for megachurch sites.

    Wouldn’t you like to see holographic Ed Young preach on a holographic bed at the local Fellowship Church, meeting at the old Carmike Plaza 20?

  81. deadmanwalking says:

    People put less thought in choosing what Church they attend than they do in what car they buy. They usually chose a church because #1 they like the pastor – second most common reason is they hope the church will save their out of control youth with a good entertaining youth ministry.

    One thing about Lutherans is they chose it because of what the believe and teaching, or they were born Lutherans

  82. Em says:

    DMW and Centorian, i always suspected that pastors were smarter about human nature than those Sunday smiles indicate – you two just proved it 🙂 i must plead guilty to ‘running on fumes’ (what a zinger of a description) from a tape ministry – some recorded messages have great value, but, unless there’s truly in-depth and academic teaching, few are worth a repeat performance … IMO

  83. Em says:

    Deadman, i don’t know why the Lord has hedged you in as He has (not a very profound observation, i know) – but i’m sure there’s a lot of us praying for your health as well as Debbie’s – He has put so much spiritual experience and down to earth honest wisdom in you

  84. Em says:

    God keep all close and comforted this night

  85. A E A says:

    Gnite all,

  86. Babylon's Dread says:

    I have invited Leonard Sweet to speak at my church when the conference is here… sounds like fun…

  87. Michael says:


    That rocks…I hope he comes and worships with you.

  88. deadmanwalking says:

    God Boxed me in because God is God and I’m not

    I could play the who know what would have happened if I stayed in ministry — you know the game people play like “that flat tire probably saved me from a fatal accident “or what ever when it was probably just neglect to check their stupid tire pressure.. But some need seem to me a profound reason for everything. I don’t need any profound reason, because I know my Father Love me, he sent His son for die for me.

    At the end of our lives that one question will finally be answered .. did we Say Thy Will Be Done NOT MINE — you see it’s the NOT MINE that gets most in trouble. They want it both ways. I learned that God know more that I do a long time ago, and His will is always better that My will… So I just pray Thy Will and right now I am going to sleep on that through

    good night all

  89. centorian says:

    Sweet at dread’s church….lol! that ought to get ya some coverage…..

  90. Believe says:

    OK…this was a rather sobering view. Right on the UCLA campus from a UCLA professor, right here in the U.S.

    I don’t quite know how to react to this from a spiritual perspective. We certainly need to help the poor and love our neighbor and racism is wrong (on all sides)…however, this is a dynamic that complicates things and muddies the waters quite a bit.

    Do you resist this type of movement and rhetoric or embrace it and try to make peace with it? Can you even make peace with revolutionaries?

  91. centorian says:

    saw the video, what a racist! kinda like the late 60’s to early 70’s all over again…..

  92. Linnea says:

    DMW said “They liked having a “well known pastor”.

    And Israel asked for a king and look where that got ’em.

    Good for you, and for your church, DMW, that you resisted that siren call.

  93. puzzletop says:

    Ha! I’ll have to show this to Pastor Bob at my church!

  94. A E A says:

    BD, did you invite Skip too?

    I thought they were a package deal.

    Or Skip could attend but not be allowed to speak.

    That would bring balance would it not?

  95. centorian says:

    just spent a great afternoon with my family celebrating Mother’s Day. Happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers out there.

  96. Captain Kevin says:

    Happy Mother’s Day to you too Centy! 😉

  97. Believe says:

    Wow. Walid Shoebat is probably right.

    When (not if) the derivatives market explodes and wipes out the world economic system…only the Islamic Banks will be left standing.

    “The derivatives market is now estimated at $700 trillion (notional, or face, value, not market value). The world’s gross domestic product in 2009: $69.8 trillion; America’s, $14.2 trillion. The total market cap of all major global stock markets? A mere $30 trillion. And the total amount of dollar bills in circulation, most of them abroad: $830 billion (not trillion).

    One of the Middle East’s most powerful bankers conceded recently that even after listening to experts explain the drill, he still does not understand derivatives and therefore doesn’t trust them and won’t have anything to do with them. And when that weapon of mass destruction explodes, he explained, “Our bank’s customers, from all over the world, will be saved from the disaster.” “

  98. deadmanwalking says:

    Linnea says:
    May 9, 2010 at 1:21 pm
    DMW said “They liked having a “well known pastor”.

    And Israel asked for a king and look where that got ‘em.

    Good for you, and for your church, DMW, that you resisted that siren call.

    There was nothing to resist on my part. My wife needed me at home. I took a vow before God that included the words “in Sickness and in Health” – Never took a vow to the ministry so the choice was made long before the time for the decision step down from speaking all over the world. I grew up believing that is a man is not good for his word, he is good for nothing.

  99. deadmanwalking says:

    And if a man can’t keep his word to his wife, he is not fit for service in ministry. Period

  100. A E A says:


  101. Jessica Menn says:

    Believe, I watched the video you posted in post 91.

    ***Do you resist this type of movement and rhetoric or embrace it and try to make peace with it? Can you even make peace with revolutionaries?***

    Quite honestly, their rhetoric sounds very much like what I have heard from the mouths and read from the pens of many christians. The political views of evangelicals and La Raza may differ, but I have heard very similar language from evangelicals–the belief that this country has somehow been stolen away from them, that it’s an evil and corrupt place that must be taken back, that they will take it back if they simply stand firm in their beliefs, that America is destined to fall to them eventually. I see a similar persecution complex in many evangelicals that I see in La Raza.

    I don’t know what you would consider “making peace” with revolutionaries to look like. On the one hand I find the sort of revolutionary rhetoric of La Raza to be very unpleasant and wrong. But, on the other hand, I think that they will be as successful in accomplishing their goals as evangelicals have been in accomplishing theirs.

  102. deadmanwalking says:

    And if a man can’t keep his word to his wife, he is not fit to be President or any world leader. Period

    How can a man’s word carry any weight at all if he keep his word to the one person on this earth he is suppose to love more than all others.

    Now a man that fails, and repents and wins back his wife is still a man of his word to me. but note… (he wins back his wife). If he can convince her to forgive him, then he must be truly changed.

  103. Em says:

    Jessica, let’s hope that La Raza aren’t as successful as the Nazis were in accomplishing their goals… i could live and prosper under the ‘evangelicals’ and so could the Latinos BTW

    but this too shall pass …

  104. Jessica Menn says:

    ***let’s hope that La Raza aren’t as successful as the Nazis were in accomplishing their goals…***

    Could everyone please just cease mentioning Nazis and Hitler anymore? Playing the Nazi card is so overused. It’s a cliched, kneejerk thing to bring into a conversation, and all it does is prove the truth of Godwin’s Law.

  105. Em says:

    Jessica, what Godwin’s Law glosses over (looked it up 😉 ) is that the Nazi movement is a fact of recent history and is a data point that needs to be hung onto… we could go into a long rambling dissertation of sorts on how exploited mankind tends to look for self-justifying and violent solutions that serve his own ends at the expense of others. Solutions-so-called that don’t come easy, catch common sense and reason off guard, and get out of hand in malevolent and, even psychopathic, violence. Historically speaking, of course 😉 but it’s easier to just short-hand with a label
    what is the label for the truism “those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it?”
    La Raza runs the risk of becoming a violent movement – testosterone and violence and Latino machismo go hand in hand
    to be fair, the badges of authority in their homelands have indeed “stunk” and, no doubt color their frame of reference – they will exploit our laws IMO without an appreciation for the order – the mindset that created this land of plenty that has somehow managed to grow in spite of the flaws of men

  106. Lutheran says:

    I’m with Jessica. Let’s stop bringing up Nazism. Unless we want to point out that they were extreme nationalist rightwingers who used the German church (with a few famous exceptions) to justify their hatred, fear of anyone deviating from their racial and historical background, extreme fear of outsiders (xenophobia), antintellectualism, and paranoia.

  107. Em says:

    well, Lute and Jessica … here’s the problem, it is tedious to respond to the declaration that, as i understood Jessica’s assertion, La Raza and, what we label as ‘christian’ or evangelical – whatever – manifest the same mindless, insular bias – one carries an appetite for revenge and is an immanent risk – not to The Faith, but to law and order…

    if it is a bad to make a point with a hackneyed label – my apologies – if i haven’t made my point, my apologies for that too and for those who are offended or bored by the coinage of the abbreviation: Nazi – no apology

  108. Glenn says:


    I’m in agreement with you on this…………

  109. Em says:

    Glenn, 🙂 in agreement? are you sure? cuz half the time nobody is sure what i’ve said 😆

    however, thanks for the yes vote anyway

  110. Jessica Menn says:

    ***here’s the problem, it is tedious to respond to the declaration that, as i understood Jessica’s assertion, La Raza and, what we label as ‘christian’ or evangelical – whatever – manifest the same mindless, insular bias – one carries an appetite for revenge and is an immanent risk – not to The Faith, but to law and order…***

    I can respect that opinion. It’s certainly valid. I just don’t seen the point of bringing Nazis into the discussion. Nazis are a conversation stopper and take attention away from the actual issues.

  111. Em says:

    Jessica, ok, too “ODM-ish?” 🙂
    i’ll spend the night pondering another label for a destructive political madness that incites us ‘masses’ to do unspeakable things? how bout the French Revolution? 😆

    i do pray for a peaceful and prosperous world for you and my grandchildren, too – God keep

  112. Jessica Menn says:

    ***i’ll spend the night pondering another label for a destructive political madness that incites us ‘masses’ to do unspeakable things? how bout the French Revolution? 😆 ***

    Is it necessary to find a “label” for it? Isn’t it enough to say you find it destructive or harmful for this, this, and this reason? Why is there a need to compare them to Nazis or French Revolutionaries or anyone else from history? Comparing La Raza to French Revolutionaries is somewhat more apt than comparing them to Nazis, but the comparison still strikes me as deeply flawed and not particularly accurate.

    Beyond that, I would like to see some sort of evidence that La Raza is anything more than just extreme talk–that it is actually engaging in the sort of violent, revolutionary behaviour that people fear them for. Until I see that I will find the views they espouse harmful and incorrect, but I’m not going to view them as some sort of modern equivalent of violent revolutionaries.

  113. Em says:

    Jessica, it is now your generation’s responsibility to handle the world’s commerce and create an atmosphere of fairness – the ‘anglos’ of mine lived in a bubble of prosperity that it will be hard to maintain… and we’re way off topic of the things of the Lord, aren’t we? 🙂
    that said, IMO Martin Luther King is an American hero, not because of the fact that he led the civil rights movement, but because of how he led something that was already on the move and had in it the seeds of disaster… i pray for a Mexican MLK
    the human race has in it blind, self righteous seeds of destruction: Black pride, Gay pride, La Raza – God hates pride – not to be confused with respect, but usually is in this fallen world – IMO
    i hope your calm assessment that these folks aren’t big enough or motivated to threaten the stability of the nation proves to be right. i want very much for your generation to live long and prosper – whatever their color – my oldest grandson is to be married this summer, too – to a drop dead gorgeous young woman “of color” 🙂

  114. Pa says:

    “A great new Christian TV reality series coming your way!!”

    I like the new monniker: “Reverend.”
    And the collar. That’s a nice touch.

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