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  1. Bob Sweat says:


    Spring mornings are not “gay” in Sacramento. More like gray. 😉

  2. Linnea says:

    1 Peter 4:17
    For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


    Psalm 139:23-24
    Search me, O God, and know my heart;
    Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
    And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
    And lead me in the everlasting way.

    Michael gives a wise admonition.

  3. Michael says:


    Those are the exact Scriptures I woke up with…thank you.

  4. Em says:

    sigh….. Lord, we believe, but increase Your presence and power in Your Church – God be merciful to us and increase our understanding

  5. Josh Hamrick says:

    I’m not sure we jump all over Rekers just yet. To this point, and on the front page of his site, he is denying any wrong doing. And something smells fishy about the whole deal anyway. Now, I had never heard his name before today, so if it turns out he’s gay…so be it, but let’s hear it out first.

    As far as Caner goes, something is definitely amiss there. I’ve followed that one for a while now. As far as I can tell, he got caught embellishing his testimony. He’s not the first to do so, for sure, but he is president of a conservative university and should have known better.

  6. Another Voice says:

    Psalm 15 comes to mind as well.

    1 LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle?
    Who may dwell in Your holy hill?

    2 He who walks uprightly,
    And works righteousness,
    And speaks the truth in his heart;
    3 He who does not backbite with his tongue,
    Nor does evil to his neighbor,
    Nor does he take up a reproach against his friend;
    4 In whose eyes a vile person is despised,
    But he honors those who fear the LORD;
    He who swears to his own hurt and does not change;
    5 He who does not put out his money at usury,
    Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.

    He who does these things shall never be moved.

  7. Babylon's Dread says:

    Not only is character not a prerequisite, it is not even necessary … performance is more important…give us a good show.

  8. Michael says:


    You said it…and you were right.

    I wonder what this is costing us in terms of the blessing of God….

  9. Nonnie says:

    I don’t know anything about the 2 guys you are talking about, but I do know that I am flying into LAX tomorrow night and going to meet “Nene” at Tommy’s Burgers in the San Fernando Valley tomorrow night for some sweet fellowship and great burgers. We met here on the PP and what a joy it is to meet every couple of years when I am in country and rejoice over the goodness of the Lord. It is about as close as I can get to the “E-fest!

    My mom has had her breast cancer surgery and is recovering. Her doctor has told her that she is cancer free! A few weeks ago, I feared I might be flying in to the States for a very sorrowful home-coming. Tomorrow I will fly into the State for a celebration, rather than a time of sorrow. We are all so thankful for God’s mercy to us all.

    Nene, see you Sat. PM!!!

  10. Michael says:


    I don’t know how in the world you can exonerate the man…he found his “assistant” in a gay porn mag and spent his vacation with him.

    The guy is caught and he’s going to cause big damage to the moral authority of the church.

    What little there is left…

  11. Michael says:


    That’s awesome!

  12. BrianD says:

    I say all this with my own fallen, sinful humanity in mind (C.J. Would be so proud) 🙂

    I saw the Mohler article on Franklin Graham, and Russell Moore’s comments on Graham referring to persecution. I read the new issue of Charisma in my inbox, in which quite a few luminaries talk of persecution.

    I have a few questions.

    How much of this is conservative, WND, Parshall influenced fear?

    Is any of this wishful thinking?

    If it comes, will we acknowledge our own sin, own our own arrogance, our own greed?

    I say the latter looking at my own heart…how have I treated others? Have I leered at women? Have I flipped off somebody over something stupid? How did I conduct myself at work?

    In other words, if the great persecution comes:

    *Will it be because “they” truly hate Jesus?

    * Or because through our arrogance, pride, hate, gossip, lust, greed and perfectionist moralism, we have given “them” something to hate for at least the past 40 years…and twisted the gospel in the process?

    Will the church historians acknowledge THAT? or ignore it?

    Read the intro to Michael Spencer’s Mere Churchianity for another angle on this.

  13. Josh Hamrick says:

    Michael, he says he interviewed several candidates and didn’t know about his other ventures. May be a lie, but I’m not ready to jump just yet. Either way, the message is the same. The church doesn’t care about character at all. You asked about God’s blessing? I’m not sure God is blessing. I think strategies to get people in the door are paying off. Like Dread said, performance is what matters, and by performance, we mean numbers.

  14. Michael says:


    When God’s hammer truly falls in discipline we will either repent or die.

    I think it’s that simple…and that serious.

  15. Michael says:


    Did he get his other candidates the same way? 🙂

    The guy is caught…just that simple.

  16. Josh Hamrick says:

    That’s fine for you to believe that, Michael. I don’t even know who the guy is. In this case, both parties say no sex took place, so whatever else they were up to that makes Rekers gay…whatever. He denies it, and I’ll await further proof. Or go back to not knowing who Rekers is.

    BrianD, that intro is brutal. Have you read the rest of the book? The intro makes we want to read more, but I’m knee deep in about 10 other books right now, and wondering if it is worth it.

  17. james tiberius kirk says:

    Rekers is certainly unwise but I’m withholding judgement until I hear of sexual sin…although it seems far-fetched he’d go to Europe with a gay ‘rentboy” without sinning sexually…

    I ministered to a gay guy and he said that ALL of his hetero friends were supportive when he “came out of the closet” and ALL of his homo friends rejected him when he repented.

    Sexual sin and sexual shame is a dark and heavy bondage.

  18. Michael says:


    Unfortunately you have to read some seedy articles to get there, but the rentboy has now admitted that there was sexual contact.

  19. BrianD says:

    Josh, this book won’t be released until next month.

  20. Rev 3:16 says:

    Wait a minute! Wait just a minute.
    I thought we were calling this sort of behavior, “leadership style.”
    : )

  21. Josh Hamrick says:

    Michael, that’s part of the problem. All of the reporting is from less than credible sources. I’m still not sure, and I wouldn’t put it past a male prostitute to try to frame some Christian right-winger.

    BrianD – thanks…that’ll give me time to get through a few of these others.

  22. Another Voice says:

    The Rekers story made local radio news today as I was in my car. The additional comment made was ‘the louder someone protests against homosexuals, the greater the likelihood he might be one’

    There may be some truth in that, or it may be the sort of thing that makes a weak pastor refuse to speak on the issue at all (for fear of getting that label)

    All the more reason, in my view, to lump all sexual sin in one category of SIN (i.e. fornication) and preach loudly against all of it.

    That also seems to be the Scriptural way…

  23. Another Voice says:

    I should have added the ‘local radio news’ I refer to was secular, and not some Christian channel.

  24. james tiberius kirk says:

    I don’t see this as a separate issue from the other discussion on theology…we either hear and obey the will of God (Matthew 7, Galatians 3:2,5) or we try to live by the law, which brings death, or by our “substitution of the will of God with the will of self”, the very definition of lawlessness (according to Vine’s).

    The greatest commandment in Satanism is “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” (compare and contrast with Isaiah 14).

  25. Em says:

    we won’t be persecuted by the world at large for compromising, we’ll be ridiculed and marginalized, perhaps…

    we’ll be persecuted when we stand and lift up Christ as His Ambassadors, yes. But an Ambassador does not compromise, he explains and represents with discretion, but clearly, does he not?

  26. Apple of His Eye says:


    You are such a great writer…I’m sad about the content, but you have a way with words.

    My thought, God requires holiness in all of us. The end of Ecclesiastes says, “Fear God and obey His commands.” It’s simple and profound. The grain of wheat must die, for real fruit to appear.

    There will always be a remnant, humble, crushed grain, pruned vine, remnant. They won’t announce themselves because that’s pruned out with the process, but the Holy Spirit will flow through them gently, forcefully, as needed, to God’s glory. They wouldn’t even think to touch His glory.

    It’s in the secret place of our lives where that work takes place. If it doesnt’ take place, then our flesh rules, full of itself, clamouring for attention, pity, justification for impurity at any level…

    Peter had to be crushed, to be used….absolutely crushed…Not even lopping off the soldier’s ear was enough, he had to experience what happened the night of Jesus’ trial because of what God had in store for him…

    Had he not been broken beyond words, he wouldn’t have done what he ended up doing for God’s glory…He wasn’t the same man after the crushing….none of us are…He didn’t speak of it either….He just walked in the Spirit, always mindful of the flesh….Walking in the Spirit was so the way it was supposed to him, he guarded his walk, that nothing, nothing would ever be able to taint his communion with the Lord….

    I could write more…I keep thinking of Joseph in the OT as well…Moses…They were so full of the Lord having first been crushed themselves, they wouldn’t think of spoiling their intimacy with Him by allowing the flesh any room…..

    Also I want to add that I am blessed daily by the commentary by Charles Bridges on Psalm 119….The truths are rich and quieting….

  27. ( | o )====::: says:

    You are concerned about how this would impact “the blessing of God”?
    The “blessing of God” is not impacted one whit. it continues on the humble single mom just struggling to make ends meet, and the teen guy who cries out the best he can to know God and that his faith be increased, and the blogging pastor who faithfully takes care of his flock and his little guy at home, and the ones who never get behind a microphone to sell their take on what it means to be followers of Jesus.

    God never stops blessing His church, but it is interesting how the paradigms of power are assaulted continuously, sort of like the handiwork of Someone Who loved going thru a temple and overturning the structures of religious commerce 😉

  28. filbertz says:

    Liberty University, if it desires a shred of respect as an institution of higher learning, will fire the guy immediately, for integrity on one’s resume’ is one of the sacred standards of conduct in the field. Those offenses are usually slam dunks on the discipline front, including firing from the position, but often they become pariah, virtually no one will hire them. If Liberty doesn’t do so, they will be the laughing stock of all colleges and universities. Yes, it is an issue that impacts the church, but it is also one that transcends it. If butts in seats are more valuable than academic integrity, then Liberty will be a by-word.

  29. Jim Jacobson says:

    Wow, that Renkers story is crazzzzzzzyy! I know sin is sin and all,… but I cannot imagine being that public, and traveling with a rent-boy. The insanity never ends.

  30. Jim Jacobson says:

    I agree w/Michael at 16. Caught. Pure and simple.

  31. Bob says:

    As soon as I read the story about the Rekers I remembered Gideon from scripture. Here was a man whom we remember and preach over and over again about his victories for Israel on behalf of God. However we never hear preaching about his dark secret, his concubine in Shechem and an illegitimate son.

    This concubine bore him a son, Abimelech (meaning – my father is a king), who turned on his brothers and ruled over Israel. This man of a illicit relationship, whose name implies his arrogance brought havoc to Israel for three years all because his father had a relationship he probably thought he could hide.

    Now here is a man, Reker, who has given so much to the cause of Christianity in our nation but yet has hidden a harlot away in another city just like Gideon. Like Gideon he will bring havoc both to his reputation and to the cause he gave so much of his life to.

    Very sad, will any of us really learn there are always consequences for all of our sins.

  32. Jim Jacobson says:

    As far as Caner goes,… I’m thinking “Michael Alfred Warnke.”

  33. brian says:

    Personally I dont get it. Dr. Caner is working the business and he is doing it good, look at the increase in student population, exposure, and selling books. The bottom line has gone up, what else matters, nothing else. Granted he did get caught padding his resume, something I have been tempted to do, but lacking any type of spiritual, moral, or ethical framework I did not because even thinking on it made me ill. I have tried to repent of such emotionalistic tripe but have not been able to do it.

    Now you are correct Dr. Rekers is in a worse state because he could effect the bottom line, that is and always should be what gets you the boot, with no mercy what so ever. As I have said, mercy is for the weak, and weakness will not be tolerated. A loose quote from the Mailman, I always give a hearty amen to that phrase.

  34. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Just read the intro to Mere Churchianity and I can’t wait to read the book.

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Caner could pass for Swedish. 🙂

  36. Believe says:

    Wow. Guess it shouldn’t surprise me though…after all I’ve been through.

    How about this one:

    He’s as gay as a Ryan Seacrest bobble-head.

    Anyhoo, it is more support for the Anthropology argument of Total Depravity. We sure are a bunch of sinners.

    On days like today, I’m a Lutheran or Calvinist.

    Michael, your assessment is spot on, IMO. The gay dude is toast, while the liar will get lots of cover, the benefit of the doubt and a free pass. The ol’ hierarchy of sin.

    We sure do need accountability. We sure do need integrity in leadership (if it is at all possible).

  37. Believe says:

    Michael said, “It’s not our theology that needs corrected, it’s our hearts.”

    I can’t AMEN that one strong enough…they don’t make infinity size font.

    “When God’s hammer truly falls in discipline we will either repent or die.”

    Yes, that’s what happened (and happens) to me. You know why? Because deep deep down inside, I really actually believe God Is…and that Jesus Is…and that the stuff you guys all preach is in fact real. I may not be able to understand it. I may not be able to explain all the seemingly scholarly issues with the translations and who wrote what and if Creation was a literal six days or what should or shouldn’t be canon or what doctrine or theology is “correct” etc etc.

    I do know this with all certainty…Jesus is the Messiah and God is my Father…and we are eternal beings…and without Jesus…I am headed for the Lake of Fire. That scares the living pi$$ out of me.

    When the conviction of the Holy Spirit comes…it comes hard…at least with me. I have faced that “repent or die” scenario Michael speaks of. It’s real. You give, or it’s game over.

    I wasn’t “caught”…I was crushed in repentance.

  38. Believe says:

    Michael said, “We’re headed for a major crash in this country…a pride smashing encounter with the discipline of God.”

    Chills. We certainly are.

  39. Bob says:

    “”Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.” (1 Timothy 5:20, 21)

    I don’t think anyone can say it better. Too bad many aren’t fearful of sinning in spite of the “coming out.”

  40. dusty says:

    hi family. hope everyone is doing ok tonight.

    I just saw the news about Steve 🙁 this and all the PP ladies having such a hard time with everything….

    that mean ol devil had better just leave my family alone or I will have to tell my Dad on him! (stomping my foot)

  41. brian says:

    I would hold that the problem is a few fold, is that the hope we had when we were young did not quite make it, well actually it was snuffed out with a great vengeance and with great joy in the Lord. You know the Lord is coming back soon dont worry about job, education, house family etc, of course this came from people who had money, homes, a good job, money. Some of us idiots bought into it and paid a dear price, after so many years we were looked at like lazy uneducated filth and when we did get educated we became pride filled reprobates.

    The second thing is we got sucked into every fad from Bob Larson, satanic ritual abuse, ufos are of Satan, world is going to end in 88..89. Satan made up evolution and is brain washing our kids to make them all gay supporting heathen, or contemplative emergent Jesuits. We did not get filled with the Holy Ghost so we sit and babble trying so hard to speak in tongues, but we dont want to run around and bark like a dog. Of course some of us did not fall into this and saw the damage it was doing to people who have mental illness or are deeply hurt. Of course we lacked any type of spiritual insight and are just rebellious. Then we did not get the entire Super Rapture event after the first few fizzles, or the Bill Gothard seminars (no offense to this person) it was just me I think

    You know the only thing I have ever wanted to do as a “Christian” was serve, who ever, I dont know why that has so ticked people off about me? I Know I sin, I am reminded of it daily, evil filth at best compared to God, but thats the point of a Savior.

  42. dusty says:

    Apple of His Eye!!! Hi sweet lady how are you??? So glad to see you here.

  43. BrianD says:

    Now how do you know that Ryan Seacrest’s bobblehead is gay? 🙂

  44. BrianD says:

    Michael, I believe you regarding God’s discipline.

    But I think that my point is not being understood. I don’t think many will even get my point.

    We lament the loss of Judeo-Christian-influenced culture, we fret about the atheists, we complain about the liberals, we despise the gays.

    Some in the church have made as much of a living predicting persecution upon the church as some have of predicting the rapture and who the Antichrist is.

    What if that persecution comes not so much because of the God we worship, but because we’re, frankly, such jerks and hypocrites?

    Mere Churchianity touches on something I’ve seen in abundance over the years in church: examples of worldly, unChristian behavior.

    Cleaning up our lives, and our churches, in this manner might not prevent persecution, but it might go a long way towards opening up hard hearts turned off to the gospel by our hypocrisy.

    God help us all.

  45. brian says:

    The last year I have almost killed myself trying to keep this program open, going to meetings begging working for free etc. I guess because I sunk so much time and effort into it. First I totally agree, I am stupid, I should walk away, wash my hands of it and go do other spiritual things like, make good money. Each morning I loath going to work, until I get there then I see the students and find myself drawn to serve. Then they leave and I go home loathing myself for being so pathetic for falling for that emotional tripe again. Yes evangelical Christianity is the gift that keeps on giving. It tells you to do good, then to loath yourself because hidden somewhere is some ting of pride that will be fried to charcoal when God returns, maybe even along with you.

  46. brian says:

    the killed myself was metaphorical

  47. Dusty says:

    to my sisters

    you have the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. Just as was the way of the holy women of the past you put your hope in God and it makes you beautiful. You are the Kings daughters and you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

    with much love

  48. Believe says:

    BrianD…LOL…”don’t ask, don’t tell” 8)

  49. puzzletop says:

    Conscience will make a mockery of you. Reker is like the bank robber or the murderer that wants it all to end and really wants to get caught. It’s his conscience that busted him and not the little pink camera or the big hypocrite pointer finger of the Gay Left.
    Conscience makes a mockery of a man. It’s good and it’s finally over for Reker. Now he can repent and be washed in the Blood. Can the same be said of the self-righteous haters that shouted with glee about this unseemly story? God only knows. God only knows.

  50. puzzletop says:

    On the theme of conscience making a mockery of us, I would like to share something that Augustine wrote:

    “But you Lord, while he was speaking, were turning me around so that I could see myself; you took me from behind my own back, which was where I had put myself during the time that I did not want to be observed by myself, and you set me in front of my own face so I could see how foul a site I was—crooked, filthy, spotted, and ulcerous. I saw and I was horrified, and I had nowhere to go to escape from myself. If I tried to look away from myself, Ponticianus still went on with his story, and again you were setting me in front of myself, forcing me to look into my own face, so that I might see my sin and hate it. I did know it, but I pretended that I did not, I had been pushing the whole idea away from me, and forgetting it.”

    Augustine didn’t know about Rent-a-boy but he was well aware that conscience is powerful and makes a man squirm to be free of his sin. May we all know something about conscience before we join with the God haters to wag our heads in disgust of a fallen brother.

  51. Believe says:

    Sin is powerful and terrible. It will find you out.

    Got sad news today about a friend from high school. He was married and participated in adultery. He found out he contracted HIV from one of his encounters. He shot himself in the head yesterday and is dead.

    He left behind a wife and two kids.

  52. victorious says:

    BrianD: I think I get you. Some so called “persecution” maybe the discipline of God upon His children through unregenrate human vessels. If screams of “persecution” arise from that scenario then IPeter 4:15 provides the redirect of perspective we need.

    Outside of that I will simply say that I hope some persecution is a validation from the enemy of our godliness.IITim.3:12

  53. victorious says:

    Believe. Sorry about your friend. Praying with for his family.

  54. Em says:

    BrianD-“Mere Churchianity touches on something I’ve seen in abundance over the years in church: examples of worldly, unChristian behavior.”

    i’m glad i lived to see the day

    brian, you are right your generation was let down, manipulatged and misled, but that’s no excuse 😉 – here’s one apology for not praying more and harder…

  55. Em says:

    yeah, devil what Dusty said – i’m tellin, too

    God keep all close this night

  56. puzzletop says:

    Forgive me if this sounds uncharitable but I want to drive a point here: Better a bullet in the brain than a conscience that gnaws incessantly. Conscience makes a mockery of a man.

  57. Dusty says:

    Em, 🙂 Dad will listen too… ‘cuz He delights in making His girls smile. 😉

  58. victorious says:

    filbertz: Agree with your 3:15Pm. Too bad the board at Liberty did not consult us first.

    According to Wade Burleson (in a comment he added to the blog post BrianD referenced the other day) they have gone in the exact opposite direction.


    Well, there are several problems with believing repentance has occurred.

    (1). His statement of repentance has been removed from Caner’s website. (see here
    (2). The archives at have been scrubbed. When you click on anything from 2005 to 2007 it takes you to the current page.
    (3). Authorities at Liberty are making challenges to YouTube to get ALL videos of Caner speaking fabrications of his past removed.
    (4). The resume posted at and Liberty University have been changed, and reposted, but any statement of repentance has disappeared.
    (5). Liberty issued a statement, through Dr. Elmer Towns, that the PROBLEM WAS THE BLOGGERS, who cannot hurt or harm Liberty. That kind of statement lights my fire because it is evidence of an institutional lack of integrity.”

    I wonder if the guy will speak anymore in Calvary Chapel circles?

  59. Dusty says:

    hi puzzle, how is my favorite brother?

  60. puzzletop says:

    We are doing well Dusty. How’s Mr. Buster? Miss hearing from you. We need to keep in contact more. Press on. my sister.

  61. Nene says:

    Hi Dust,
    ugm! 🙂

  62. Dusty says:

    Buster is well. He is serenading me with the guitar…singing don Francisco….he says hi.

    I miss you too…and yes we do need to keep in contact more.

  63. jlo says:

    Dusty, I’m hijacking that link to post on facebook. Glad to “see” you.

  64. Dusty says:

    Nene u2 lol

    jlo, hi lady

  65. jlo says:

    Dusty, looking forward to meeting you at Efest.

  66. Dusty says:

    jlo, she has an amazing voice. I get so jealous of peoples voices…the one thing I would love to be able to to is sing….sigh….but alas, all I can do is make a joyful noise. lol

  67. Dusty says:

    me too jlo…i can’t believe I am actually going.

  68. jlo says:

    We can make noise together. Glad the Lord enjoys it. When I sing to my cat he runs away. LOL

  69. Dusty says:

    too funny jlo. when I was a teen, my friends would say, ‘can you hum’ (can’t really do that either 😳 )

  70. jlo says:

    I’m with ya sister. My husband and his daughters are so musically inclined, I’m sometimes embarrassed to put to voice my devotion, but hey, if the Lord enjoys it that’s all that really matters. Right?

  71. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Believe, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. How sad for his family. How sad for you and for all of his other friends. How sad for him.

  72. victorious says:

    Tom Chantry has an excellent series of blog posts that deal with the influences that contribute to situations like Caner.

    Here is a quote that deals withe the pressures that a preacher faces to become popular while faced with the call to remain faithful and humble.

    “Certainly this relates to the wonderful words of John the Baptist: “He must increase, and I must decrease.” The truth about Jesus Christ is so crucial to everyone that the proper communication of His message must take precedence over everything. A minister may want to be popular and to have a large following, but this desire does violence to his true calling. Far better for a preacher to sink to obscurity as the boring individual that he is than for the glory of Christ to be hidden under a veil of the preacher’s fabrications. ”

  73. brian says:

    It is also a good thing that I dont over exaggerate and make broad sweeping melodramatic statements either. 🙂 Thanks for putting up with my tantrums

  74. London says:

    yeah bri….good thing :mrgreen:

  75. Apple of His Eye says:

    Hi Dusty!

    You remember everyone! I could write a book, but alas, couldn’t everyone?
    I’ve been starting to do a little speaking here and there…The timing seems right…I’m committed to every word and thought just being a part of flow of the river of life when I do share…and a little humor too ‘cuz that is part of the river of life in my heart too…smile…Women’s groups…

    Been so blessed by the Charles Bridges book I referenced…..Psalm 119…

    Hugs to you Dusty!

  76. brian says:

    I do hope all of you have a wonderful evening Thanks London, and Brian D you are correct it is no excuse and I have used it as one way to many times.

  77. brian says:

    I have an idea for Saturday open blog, lets post all the pict or music youtube etc links of songs mountains stars animals all of God’s great works and just encourage the socks off each other in preparation for the Lord’s day. Just a thought.

  78. London says:

    I was just joking around brian. Your post made me laugh…
    Your earlier post made me nod my head in agreement about how hard it is to get something new off the ground and how some days you just want to trow in the towel. I had one of those days today. Wanted to, and did, say “the hell with it” about 5 times.
    Can not believe the drama and church politics that go on sometimes. Just needed one simple thing done. Didn’t know that by talking to 2 different people about it…I was some how stepping into a hornet’s nest of church women’s groups that can not stand each other and refuse to even speak to each other. Heck…I don’t even go to that church…how’d I end up having to “choose sides”?? arrrrrgh….
    Happy to be where I’m at even though I’m not really “at” where I’m at :mrgreen: at least there I just have to say “hey, we want to do this or that project. How can we make that happen?” or say”hey…I need help reaching these people in our community” and I get the help I need.
    No stupid church politics or waste of time meetings with 2 different people who refuse to talk to each other….

    So yeah…some days, throwing in the towel sounds like a perfectly good idea to me too!

  79. brian says:

    No I got it thanks God be with you

  80. London says:

    I know. but I wanted to vent anyway :mrgreen:

  81. London says:

    ooops, use this one instead

  82. brian says:

    I guess this sums my point up having been involved in many such events. I wont go into what I was told about my involvement, that is one part of this equation I dont get but it really does make some folks angry, to say the least

    Personally how can one witness such events and be angry , upset etc, anything but totally grateful? When I was involved in such events I would never let someone take picture as I would never want someone to think I was wanting attention, self gratification etc. It grew quite tiring trying not to sin by helping people. Our religion is quite strange we are exhorted to do good works, and when we do, we are reminded that those works are filthy rags and we should repent of our doing good works so that we do not mess up one of the sola’s . Translation do not appear to Catholic so as to point out that maybe God will hold us to our own works, because God loathes are works even when done in Him because we are trying to prove Catholics are wrong about sola fida. Nope I never did get it, and I pray I never will.

  83. Em says:

    brian, “. Our religion is quite strange we are exhorted to do good works, and when we do, we are reminded that those works are filthy rags and we should repent of our doing good works so that we do not mess up one of the sola’s…”
    am so glad when you guys vent – it makes me feel so much better about my own behaviors 😆
    that said, to put a fine point on it: i don’t think it is our good work that is labeled as filthy rags, but our presentation of it to God as a self justifying righteousness , eh?

  84. Believe says:

    Puzz said, “Forgive me if this sounds uncharitable but I want to drive a point here: Better a bullet in the brain than a conscience that gnaws incessantly. Conscience makes a mockery of a man.”

    I think I know what you’re saying here…but can you please clarify?

  85. Believe says:

    Never mind Puzz, I read and re-read your earlier posts…and I’ve got it…and believe I understand…and agree.

    Those who have a seared conscience, the God haters, aren’t at war internally over matters of sin. When your spirit and the Spirit is at war with your flesh…your flesh will inevitably lose the battle…as the “conscience” will win out…eventually…and sometimes rather painfully and dramatically.

  86. brian says:

    I remember the first time I was informed I was a “God hater” it hurt, it should not have but it did because it came from someone I loved, but being a “God hater” I could not love anyone except myself. I was also told a I had no conscience because I was in rebellion to God and I was a Dog returning to its vomit. I guess we each have a role to play, I do not wish to be part of this role. But grew tired of trying to convince others I was not such a one. I dont hate God, at times I have been convinced that God hated, no loathed me, but that is another post.

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