Paul Smith Speaks
Paul Smith has released this video in yet another family attempt to undermine Brian Brodersen.
The “contingency plan” he speaks of was the million dollar plus paperĀ to pay Brodersen leave the church.
I wrote about that here months ago.
Obviously, this isn’t going away anytime soon…
Chuck didn’t like Brian. Brian yelling at Chuck. Cheryl shoving a big guy pretty hard.
So it’s now public that Paul wants Brian gone and that Chuck desired the same.
How in the world do Brian and Cheryl defend themselves in the face of this?
Wasn’t Skip Heitzig Paul’s choice to be in the pulpit that Brian now occupies?
Pretty darn sad.
Re-reading When Doves Cry it’s no surprise that there is now a lawsuit pending that may or may not see the light of day. This is entering into TBN territory which should cause all involved to take pause. Sadly it may be Brian may see no other option but to leave. And if Heitzig were to take his place that would be a downright disgrace. I’ll let those with more knowledge and insight go from here….
Brodersen usually doesn’t defend himself.
It’s no secret that the family had issues.
The one thing that to me is indisputable is that if Chuck Smith wanted them out, they would have been gone.
He may not have liked Brian, but he didn’t can him.
At least now the people that thought I made up the story in “When Doves Cry” will have to eat some crow…
I sure hope some folks make a stand for Brian and Cheryl as I’m sure more of this is to come. One thing is for sure CC will never be the same again.
It is sad that so much positiioninng to be Chucks replaement was and had been going on.. It’s still God’s church and He will see this thru.. in thi case I wil believe Paul and have been rivy to this stuff for a very long time and now its all in the open.
erunner,
To the best of my understanding Brians board is behind him…and that’s pretty much the only vote that counts at this point.
Folks. Jesus is the head of the church. Senior pastors are supposed to just sit back ,teach the Word and let Jesus be the head of the church. Come on Paul. Maybe you or others have no intent of carrying that out but others have actually ordered their lives and ministry operations around that reality?
Ever consider the idea that Jesus overrode you and the wishes of your comrades in arms? Every consider the idea that people filled with the Spirit are responding and participating in the fellowship and ministry of Calvary Chapel because they are discerning and deciding that they see Jesus’ wishes being carried out?
Paul Smith obviously had a problem with that and still has a problem with that.
Who knows what Chuck actually wanted? Who cares? His race is run. Was it ChucK’s choice, Paul’s choice or Jesus’ choice?
Who knows what Chuck actually wanted? Who cares? His race is run. Was it ChucKās choice, Paulās choice or Jesusā choice?
The same could be said about Hitler…
Chuck had Brian and Cheryl in place. I agree with Michael. If CS had wanted someone else in the pulpit, they would have been there.
Once upon a time. What drug influenced you to bring Hitler into this conversation?
Brian
once upon a time,
I’m curious…you’re bold enough to compare Brodersen to Hitler, but you’re not bold enough to use your own name or email address.
Why is that?
I once thought that I would appreciate the implosion of the CC empire for all the smugness, the pious attitudes and the self righteous posture of many of the pastors, but the truth is I feel sad after watching Paul’s video.
I know Brian to be a very decent man yet not very well liked by his peers but today is a sad day for CC. Paul is a pawn and this is going to get worse.
Very sad indeed…
wisdom Michael š
I just re-read your Sept. 2013 article, “when Doves Cry.” You had the correct information . This is so sad.
Interesting that Paul mentions the caregiver by name…
once upon a time,
I suppose it’s wisdom if you want no accountability for your words.
You seem to be very involved in shaping the narrative that this side of the family wants to advance…why don’t you want to be upfront about who you are and why you believe this version of the story?
Chuck had plenty of opportunity to get rid of Brian had he wanted to. This ideal of “bringing in different teachers that Chuck was comfortable with” is just plain crazy. This is a church, for goodness sake, not some runway for celebrity models to come in strut their stuff. Paul is enamored with the cult of personality.
“This is a church, for goodness sake, not some runway for celebrity models to come in strut their stuff.”
That was gold…
why donāt you want to be upfront about who you are and why you believe this version of the story?
Because it’s true! And the truth shall set you free!!!
Michael, do you believe that Paul is lying?
Ixtlan said it well.
God’s truth does not come back null – lack of biblical eldership will always end up this way.
Furthermore, A church started to allow man to be “free” to be unburdened by church eldership or doctrine will always lead to a man lead monarchy of legalism and self imposed shortsighted thin doctrine. If a doctor started a practice with the goal of getting people through the office with just good common sense advice, but without all the books and studies and resources of a proper medical school or the historical medical community, they would end up with a lot of temporarily happy people, and their own form of medical community ; but very serious problems down the road.
These people should all go to their own homes, take care of their own families, say their prayers, keep the fasts (oops… oh well) and live quiet lives, working with their hands (or whatever their vocation is) and none of them should ever take Communion again, even the CC version of it, until they have all reconciled with each other.
And I agree with Dave up there. CC was founded on rebellion. CS was tired of being told what to do by the Four Square hierarchy, thought he knew better, didn’t want any “bishop” or whatever the 4Square people have to be telling him what to do and then he encouraged this rebellious attitude with the hippies, where, instead of encouraging them to attend (and revive in the process) the “dead” churches that he disdained, he retained them unto himself and in the process, kept all their rebellious hippie ways which inaugurated the dire downward spiral into relevancy that is plaguing the evangelical world to this day.
once upon a time,
I don’t believe Paul is telling the whole truth.
So sa . As much turmoil as cc has brought into my life I want to believe that at least it was sincere and pure. This mess is as ugly as any Hollywood drama.
I donāt believe Paul is telling the whole truth.
So it is all true but there is still more truth to be said?
Maybe it will be said in court…
I thought you weren’t a Calvary Chapel blog, but rather a “community” and some sort of theology club.
White man speak with fork tongue.
Alex, I miss you… over there š
I’m not a Calvary Chapel blog.
I write about it when there is something I find newsworthy.
I’m not a Mars Hill blog, either.
I write what I believe is important and compelling to my readers and me.
I listened to Laurie interviewin Chuck … he asked directly about succession. Chuck said the Lord would take care of it. That was it.
Sounds like what happened to CRI on the death of Walter Martin — questions on the succession of power. Maybe Chuck and Walter waited a bit too late to clarify their desires for the legacies.
Remember during the Clinton campaign years the slogan was “It’s the economy stupid.”
Same thing here in CCCM and with the Mars Hills stuff and throughout American Evangelicalism “it’s the theology stupid.”
American Evangelicalism has led to the most strange of all theologies calling themselves Christian and it always results in these kinds of issues. The theology of American Evangelicalism has atrophied the spirits of the participants … and this is what we see.
Theses churches are filled with people who know the words, but do not know the word – they can do line by line / verse by verse and parse every word in the original language – but in the end you never see a theology developed. But out of the pulpit (there is a larger area than just where the pulpit sets) they have no knowledge of how to lead a divine worship service – they have no concept of how to teach people to pray – to model real prayer, to teach people how to confess their sin or – heck just add to the list.
This whole Smith family squabble is just plain unbecoming.
MLD
Well spoken….
A pastor should not have a succession plan. When a pastor (or priest) dies or becomes too enfeebled to do the work, his bishop should choose his replacement. Or at the very least, the bishop should offer a congregation a few good choices from which they can choose.
A church is not a personal possession like bakery that the owner can bequest to whoever he likes.
If my priest were to die, God forbid, in his declining days he would not be permitted to choose his successor. His family would have no say at all. The bishop in San Francisco would send us a new priest. We may or may not like his personality or his homilies but the structure of the Liturgy and the Church Calendar will save the parish from coming to grief.
MLD. I spent a childhood and adolescence not being taught or having any of the spiritual disciplines of grace you speak while in Lutheran and Presbyterian Churches.
However, people who came to faith and fellow shipped under the umbrella of the dreaded evangelicalism ministered the truth of the Gospel from the Word of God and manifested the realities of the God of the Word alive and at work in them so that I came to be convicted of sin and simultaneously compelled by the love of God to call upon Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit.
It was within the same group of people that I was taught within a matter of a few months to confess sin in light of the promises of God centered on the person and work of Christ; pray and interact with the Lord through the Word and relate to people both within and outside of the church based upon His commands to love one another. I began to participate meaningfully in the Lord’s supper on a regular basis both in formal and informal settings.
I have by God’s enabling grace continued to pay the grace of God forward helping others to do the same.
“A church is not a personal possession like bakery that the owner can bequest to whoever he likes.”
Agreed.
I believe Paul when he says Chuck wanted him to create an explosion. I think what we are seeing now is an attempt at creating this explosion.
Reality check. Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa has never been without a practicing lead pastor or team of pastors either before, during or after Chuck’s passing in spite of all this posturing, positioning and proclaiming of pedigree.
Brian Brodersen has been pastoring at CCCM since returning from London In 2001 and has probably been a main reason why Calvary did not implode prior to Chuck’s passing; and helped promote an avenue for Chuck to continue to minister in ways that benefited the body.
You see Brian loved and honored Chuck as a man and minister of the gospel. He did not worship and manipulate Chuck as someone larger than life.
This is like a horrible traffic accident. Chuck Smith’s ministry was instrumental to my coming to faith, the few years I attended at CCCM were foundational. Yet even then the wheels were starting to come off with the split of the Vineyard. I never found another Calvary that came close to CCCM, and no other church, either. The one time I met Brian, at a Missions Conference in Austria, I thought he was arrogant — a trait I’m afraid is common among CC pastors and their families. We are seeing the fruit of that arrogance now. There have been so many scandals during the past decade I don’t see how the movement can survive. I agree with Greg Laurie that there is too much looking back, and am praying for revival.
Paul is a nice, gentleman who unfortunately also worships Skip and is invested in the fear driven last days conspiracy theory that an apostasy virus has been embedded secretly and demonically within the word “ecumenical” and is spread every time you type or say the word.
The other ( now ex) board member Paul mentions was also a Dave Hunt loyalist although a very loving and gracious man and father and a man of high calibre character.
You see Brian loved and honored Chuck as a man and minister of the gospel. He did not worship and manipulate Chuck as someone larger than life.
BS! He wanted the throne and the gold!
vic,
“MLD. I spent a childhood and adolescence not being taught or having any of the spiritual disciplines of grace you speak while in Lutheran and Presbyterian Churches.”
I am sure it was there – just not perceived properly by a kid. But if you went to a Lutheran church I assume you were in the church service and at least watched prayer, confession, absolution being modeled, let alone confessing the creeds and the Lord prayer. Why it didn’t sink in to a 12 yr old – who knows? Most of the time it does not sink into adults.
My kids would say the same today having been raised in CC – “they didn’t teach me anything.”
It’s kids, but I would bet if you sat down and thought about it, you learned what all kids learned in churches – perhaps the light went on at a later date.
But the important part of my words – and you see it plainly in Paul Smith – the theology dictates a strong man in the pulpit.
once upon a time,
The problem with the narrative you and others are putting forth is that Chuck could have made any changes he chose to…and he chose not to.
What exactly do you and those associated with you want to see happen here?
If Paul, Janet and Jeff persist, they will drag the names of reputable people into the open. People, who may have expressed their opinions and exercised their choice to stand their ground opposing what they thought should not take place in the day; but who know when to walk and talk in the meekness of wisdom, looking out ultimately for the interests of others beyond their own.
victorious,
I believe that if this continues a lot of stories that have been covered will be told.
I did notice that Paul spoke of the soon to come last days and said we should listen to Chuck
LOL, how about listen to Jesus??? Oh, wait – “it’s the theology stupid.”
The reality of Brian and Cheryl’s life and relationships and details of when, where, who and how they ministered tell a story vastly different from your one word insinuations and accusations.
Ultimately, Paul will dishonor his brother and Jeff and Janet their father. Tragic.
Michael, I am an association of one. I cannot speak for Paul or anyone else for that matter.
However, I would like to see the criminal elements within CCCM removed and brought to justice…
# 50 should have been addressed to once upon a time.
How & Where was this video posted? Was it sent to CC pastors or just put up on the internet?
MLD,
I don’t know.
It was posted here to make sure I saw it… š
once upon a time,
Making accusations of criminal activity is pretty strong.
What proof do you have that there has been any criminal activity?
Ultimately, Paul will dishonor his brother and Jeff and Janet their father. Tragic.
There will be a tragedy, but not the one you speak of!
Once- Your words come off like the taunts of the devil.
Paul states that Chuck didn’t want Brian being the pastor because Brian didn’t teach verse by verse through the word. On many levels that doesn’t even make sense. Brian had been teaching the Bible and ministering there since 2001, and if Chuck really felt that way, Brian would have been removed long ago. Second, I haven’t heard anyone ever claim that about Brian before. Granted I’ve never listened to Brian’s sermons. But, the only criticism I ever heard about Brian’s teaching was that though it was solid, Brian wasn’t as interesting to listen to as others. Can anyone corroborate this “doesn’t teach verse by verse through the word” accusation? Bizarre…
once- do you desire that true justice come by rightly interacting with the systems of justice or do you lust after personal vengeance disguised as justice and manipulating the systems if justice to bring about that end?
Once- you state that Brian wanted the throne and the gold. Are merely projecting onto him your unfulfilled fantasy?
JimB. Brian teaches through the word, verse by verse. Concerning his style, Brian once said that he ” talks” more than he “PREACHES” comparing his style similar to Wayne Taylor who you are familiar with.
Are the folks seeking to oust Brian aware of the shenanigans Skip Heitzig was involved in? Has Skip repented? Or they’re aware of it but choose not to believe it. Maybe Bob Grenier can be Skips assistant?!
erunner- Remember Paul was the man who conducted the one person review and white washed report of the Skip fiasco?
Paul Smith was in charge of CCOF at the time of Heitzigs debacle.
He gave him a clean bill of health at the end of the investigations.
There’s stil the Stipe report….
The rise of an authoritative Bible in place of an authoritative church has led to denominationalism and now to the banal franchise mentality. We watched the succession dance at Calvary for many years… it has brewed for a couple decades. Now we see the full flower of the bankruptcy of our present system.
This video is as hideous as any I have seen. If Chuck Smith really participated in these meetings with Paul and others then he is not the Smith I saw on the 2013 interview with Greg Laurie.
Chuck had many opportunities to prevent this… please tell me he was not so weak he could not have handled this honorably and publicly.
…. and the testimony of untold numbers who were impacted and otheres who can detail all that took place.
erunner,
These people believe I was the bad guy in all the scandals we’ve reported on…that I am the one with character issues and ungodly ways.
When all this comes out we’ll see what I’ve said for years…character didn’t count in CC.
Victious, sounds like your pretty close the throne yourself… and the gold š
The thing that kept a lid on all this stuff was the old Soviet-U.S. policy of MAD…”mutually assured destruction”.
Everyone had dirt on everyone else so everyone kept quiet.
Taking the matter into court will rip the lid off.
Just to give you an insight into his efforts to build meaningful unity ( in spite of the underground schisms and power plays) ; Brian has conducted a recent church planting conference with Skip and Tom Stipe( remember the guy who gave the honest report showing that dollars did play into the Skip scenario and offering honest constructive criticism?) .
Brian also issued a promotional video for a conference focused upon expositional teaching of the Word taking place Monday where Skip is highlighted as a key note speaker. Brian is not teaching at this one which shows he is not gunning for the throne.
BD,
You saw the Chuck that he wanted you to see.
Once- sorry. My investment is in the unity of the people of God. Like Paul the Apostle I pay my way with the work of my own hands.
Michael, there are numerous CC pastors that know what Skip did and many who don’t have issues with BB. Maybe the best thing that could happen is some sort of split as this type of campaign seems destined to go on and on. This does not honor God.
erunner,
The split is done…it will be official soon enough.
In my opinion, of course.
once upon a time,
I’m waiting for that proof of criminal activity…
Once-you have done a good job building a resume on this post. A resume highlighting your unsavory character.
This is inconceivable …
I have been reading about the early days and reveling in the move of God among so many broken people … only to discover what? That Lonnie’s problems were the least real issues?
We deal with some gross sins with a hammer but the sins of the powerful we touch not at all. Not at all… these preachers love Matt 7:21 to throw at rebels and charismatics … better take another look… Lust for the kingdoms of this world was the temptation eschewed by Jesus as a demonic ruse … still is.
I imagine if as Paul Smith said the rapture is imminent then it makes sense for him to get Brian out ASAP so people can be taught the word of God properly.
#24 – Xenia, AMEN! amen, amen…
Hi Em!! Xenia posts a lot of stuff that is chock full of wisdom. Hope you’re well!
Calvary has lived through other splits. This time I think the wisdom of history and the avenue of communication afforded by the Internet can be used to navigate with charity and discernment, helping to maintain the unity of the Spirit to a greater degree among a greater number of people.
Sorry, forgot to refer to Michael in my last post.
It must have driven Paul nuts when Brian referred to being an “Ecumenical Evangelical in a recent sermon.
erunner, hope you and yours are well, also… yes, Xenia is a good voice here and so are many others… this is a good place to search for nuggets of wisdom of the Eternal kind
So according to Paul, Chuck and Paul and a couple others got together to form the “contingency plan” that would kick out Brian and Cheryl from CCCM. During this process, there is spying taking place and papers disappearing. This apparently led to things like Cheryl finding out some details and her hitting hard one of the involved board members. And then Chuck tells Paul that he’ll take care of things and talk to Brian and Cheryl, which leads to a lot of screaming by Brian. Of course, despite all of this Brian remained pastor of CCCM.
And so it seems pretty apparent by now that Chuck never clearly established to all involved what he wanted. I would assume there us at least some truth to the things that Paul is saying. But if Chuck was truly so dead set on removing Brian, it would have happened. This whole scenario, seemingly in the making for many years, is just so very sad.
Paul sounds psychologically paranoid when he speaks about hackers on his computer and spies listening and recording things…
@67 I hate it when Pentecostals make sense…
“The rise of an authoritative Bible in place of an authoritative church has led to denominationalism and now to the banal franchise mentality.”
I’m not sure I totally agree with that statement, but I think there are some things to consider. It’s not the Bible, but interpretation, which leads us back to the church. However, the church has little authority and anyone with a burning in the bosom can stake their claim on the priesthood of the believer and act upon any impulse that enters their mind.
In New Orleans the graves are very shallow because the water table is really high. During times of extreme flooding it’s not uncommon for caskets to be seen floating down the street.
I believe the skeleton buried in Smith’s casket will soon surface and will be floating down the street for all to see.
Though this is sad, it’s not surprising, is it?
In addition, if Chuck Smith believed that Brian Broderson was as unqualified and horrible as Paul is painting him, and left him in place as a shepherd and overseer of the congregation at Costa Mesa, then Chuck Smith was a horrible and cruel person. Who would do such thing?
Chuck should have followed the Moses model all the way through and done as Moses did when he apointed Joshua
If is not in God will for Brian to be removed they are fighting a losing battle. God eventually remove Brian in his own timing it can’t be in Mans timing. So paul smith is really fighting a uphill battle it has to be done in gods timing God has put brian in charge for a reason.
Delusional!
Its funny I had dirt on my family, real dirt, times dates incidents. Never did it cross my mind to ever use it against them. It actually made me more empathetic, which is another pathetic personality defect I possess. I wish I had smith’s money, paid for home etc. I wish I had MD or Benny Hinn’s fortune. I wish I could look at people right in the eye and be able to lie through my teeth and get them to give me things I want. So In a way I am envious of these people. If I had the money my sister would not have had to live in a rat hole when she was dying from cancer, and my mother would have died at home like she begged to because I could have afforded the care. Granted those are stupid things to pay for but, well nevermind. I never hid my envy and jealousy concerning these higher ups.
I think there needs to be an explanation why Millions of $$ in new construction at CCCM was done by a select group of board members, who themselves own construction companies. Is it coincidence that its these very board members, where picked by Brian? People go to jail and are Felons for conflict of interest and collusion in construction projects.
“I think there needs to be an explanation why Millions of $$ in new construction at CCCM was done by a select group of board members, who themselves own construction companies.”
Thats what I am talking about, what a great idea and doing it within a religious organization is good cover, if that is what happened. I would be bothered about doing something that even hinted like this, stupid me.
“People go to jail and are Felons for conflict of interest and collusion in construction projects.”
No its ok if you do it for God. Pulling that card would bother me to, sometimes I really disgust myself.
E, how do you know that those construction companies did not give CCCM a great deal on the construction costs, maybe even giving up any profit, and, for that reason they were picked.
Jim in my frustration I did not think about that, thank you for pointing out that possibility.
@ Jim Considering the present crisis at CCCM. Your basically saying, let the fox guard the chicken coop. These are real concerns, and only an independent audit would be credible moving forward. Considering that Brians board members did the construction is a recipe for collusion. Chuck was cheap and didnt like spending $$ on the this type of SaddleBack Esqe remodeling. There might be a smoking gun here, just like there seems to be smoke all over the place that is coming to the light.
E. Chuck was cheap. True. Collusion only exists if the amount of a construction contract was awarded above and beyond a normal profitable bid and budget and the excess was stated And agreed upon as the cost to buy someone’s vote.
There are no renovative nor expansion oriented improvements that are extravagant at CCCM. Improvements in the millions of dollars would be normal for the facilities the size of CCCM.
Another try to insinuate evil against Brian when there is none.
There is no crisis at CCCM. Brian’s accusers are indeed experiencing a crisis of conscience and true to form for narcissists, they impute their motives and actions upon him.
Although I believe Chuck had Cheryl and Brian exactly in the place he wanted them, I think what Xenia has stated here is the most Biblical response to this entire situation.
Victorious is obviously on Brodersons payroll LOL
First off, no one mentioned extravagant as being a problem. Roads and civic buildings are not extravagant. Yet people in towns and cities, commit fraud all the time and jail for collusion and conflict of interest, for the simple fact there is millions of dollars in normal construction projects. I could see the remodeling and expansion easily running into the millions as being normal. So what…. The hard questions that need to be not only asked, but audited by an independent firm. Was there multiple bids from outside general contractors, to determine market value for such construction ? And if Calvary paid these board members more then fair market value, then why ? In addition, was there kick backs to the board members in $$ or vacations or some other perks ?
On another note. To suggest there isn’t a crisis here. Is something id expect an attorney would say by total denial. Or something we see daily coming from the white house. That everything is ok, while ISIS the junior varsity teams, rolls into the middle east and starts taking over.
Sorry V- your spin is just not believable š
April @ 93 “So paul smith is really fighting a uphill battle it has to be done in gods timing God has put brian in charge for a reason.”
___________________________________________________________________
I’m missing your logic here because how do you know that God didn’t put Paul in the mix for a reason to fight this and this is in fact God’s timing for the battle? However, I personally think both sides are very wrong. This may come down to a battle of the Moses in court. How sad.
Xenia @ 36 “A pastor should not have a succession plan. When a pastor (or priest) dies or becomes too enfeebled to do the work, his bishop should choose his replacement.”,
_____________________________________________________________________
Xenia, we are not talking about just any pastor here, we are talking about the pope of CC. In RCC, who is the bishop of the pope?
Andrew, I really like you but I hate when people say “how do you know that God didnāt …?”
I could take it back, “how do you know that it wasn’t God who put leadership in your way via your small group – that you thought was bad / trouble – but instead for his purpose?
See how that can be used as a conversation stopper?
It has to be remembered that many of the buildings at CCCM are a little over 40 years old, and have had heavy use (although well maintained). Sometimes you just gotta paint the barn.
As I recall, plans to renovate CCCM were being considered for a long time but were put on the back burner especially during the radio station fiasco. Once that cash drain was over, way before Chuck’s diagnosis & passing, those upgrades began, such as replacing the pews which were ancient of days with the theatre type seating, fresh paint, courtyard improvements, etc. During the radio station lawsuit, budgets for all departments had been cut to the bone, with every pen, pencil, and paper clip being put through a rigorous request and approval process to demonstrate true need. Yes, Chuck was always very frugal in his approach to approving expenditures and it reached greater heights of frugality with the legal hassles. Sometimes, IMO, being penny wise and pound foolish. But hey, what do I know š
That there were legal hassles dividing the family then over church property ie the radio stations, was a preview of what we are witnessing now over the other family/church assets.
MLD, I don’t mean to be a conversation stopper. Just trying to understand the logic of justifying bad leadership or a bad situation by using God’s sovereignty as the explanation. God’s will will not be stopped and I agree with that in spite of bad leadership. All things will work out for the Good (Romans 8:28).
Andrew @ 106
Well that’s the problem, isn’t? Even the RCC Pope can’t choose his own successor, the new Pope is chosen by the RCC bishops and the old Pope’s family has no say.
The Church has always been governed by the biblical / historical bishop-priest [pastor]-deacon model, which modern non-denoms have by-passed, with terrible consequences.
I appreciate the conversations here. I recall the big circus tent of years ago, the Shekinah movement, the Frisbee controversy, the launching of other Calvary Chapels… the small fellowship that I departed in Long Beach one day morphed into a Calvary Chapel of Long Beach…. wow…. long ago. I recall the early Vineyard pastor meeting in 1990 (I was not a pastor, just an accidental listener in the room)… and the odd Vineyard I attended in 2010-2011.
One thing that I admired about the CC movement, was that it remained an association and therefore capable of spinning off in a thousand directions at any time, within any culture. In a sense, even if 99% of the movement became odd, the 1% would simply live on, and perhaps become the next spiritual Costa Mesa (though it may be in Brazil or Germany or Japan). And perhaps that 1% church would kick off another evangelical movement that brought Jesus to another great spiritual awakening.
Perhaps I have seen too much. I have come to reason that If the culture needs a Cult of Personality then, perhaps, the Spirit will move in that direction. If the culture needed a voting democratic congregation (as opposed to rule by elders), then, perhaps the Spirit will move in that direction. If they needed topical studies vs. through-the-Bible, perhaps the Spirit will move in that direction.
I am a theological minimalist in many respects, so the out-workings of the core beliefs do not bother me too much. Also, I have seen so many movements crash-and-burn-out… and now see this as good… ‘every branch that does not bear fruit he cuts away’. [The damaged people do bother me; but the death of the movement does not.]
Scott….re #90….. Brilliant!– very sad, very tragic but brilliant comment!
It almost seems as though everything I once knew and loved about ” all things Calvary Chapel” (or at very least, all things CCCM) is either a farce, or veneer, and merely a shop-front for the true object of the “big boys” desires; money, and power.
I can only hang my head and wonder why.,…….. Good thing Jesus is not as those who claim to love him–( too bad those who claim to love Him aren’t more like him.)
@E
“Chuck was cheap and didnt like spending $$ on the this type of SaddleBack Esqe remodeling.”
Whether or not Pastor Chuck was cheap, I dunno. But that he had an issue with remodeling is crazy. Have you seen Murrieta Hot Springs?
Every facility needs upgrading. CCCM looks better than anytime I’ve seen it in the last 15 years.
This whole thing, however, is ridiculous and sad.
The church I go to went through the same thing and our pastor ended up resigning. All it boils down to is power and ego. So don’t be surprised to see brian eventually resign because the family will make it difficult for him to lead. That’s what I was trying to say earlier.
What I think is so sad with this as well as the Driscoll saga is that all the good honest folks eventually leave because they know better than to stay in this mess. This leaves all the worldly wealth to whomever is left.
Gene Bartow
Michael Brown
The same fate awaits Brian Brodersen regardless if he is good or not. It never matters when you follow a legend.
The list can go on – Phil Bengtson – Jim Dooley
In all your speculation you just do not get it.
Brian has been pastoring the people of CCCM since 2001 and enabling other pastors to do the same at CCCM since that time in a way where he has promoted Chuck and his God given ministry and corresponding honor as a Pastor and Teacher but not yielding to men who mistook their unwavering loyalty to Chuck as having a one to one correspondence with fidelity to God?
Do you understand that Chuck may have had his appointees running the
Conference Grounds but Bryan has been leading the CCBC and building out a great team over the years, equipping the next generations?
Do you understand that the Missions movement is comprised of a multi-faceted team of leaders all who share the same vision of reaching the world together?
Do you understand that all of these areas of ministry are indeed the actual Calvary Chapel movement and those fighting from outside are the monument and the institution.
Do you understand that any dirty laundry or false accusations that come into the open will be managed by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who will only use the accusation and slander to refine and train in His discipline and further unify the Sons and Daughters who are manifesting maturity and humility and will use the events to bring a severe form of discipline towards those who sow discord and seek to build their own or maintain an empire; robbing God of His glory?
@111 Xenia, a simple study of the history of the church shows the terrible consequences of the bishop model you speak soo glowingly of. Sure this present calamity is just that. But let’s not pretend the thing that came before it was all peachy, solid and godly.
On another note, I know many people who are (or now were) at Costa Mesa. It sounds like Brodersen is sitting on a time bomb. Costa Mesa has been sagging in #s and bloated in staff for years. Chuck had them stuck in the 1990s. Now Brian the new pastor. He’s spending father-in-laws war chest like a shop-aholic, while losing a ton of people and laying off massive amounts of staff, while trying to consolidate power. I was told that there are pastors who remain on the staff (Brian’s guys) who are not fit for ministry, the attendance is tanking and they are bleeding money. But who knows.
Yes vicious, I understand…
It’s self-righteous Putz’s like you who threaten any who question the Guru with, “don’t sow discord amongst the brethren” which is just a manipulation of scripture used by rouge pastors to cover their a$$ as they fleece the flock and hide behind the Moses model.
This is why so many good people have left CCCM in the first place, they’re begining to see the spin!
Funny that the video has comments disabled, and has been viewed a whopping 4500 times.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Paul is a foolish old man, who’s inability to keep a coherent train of thought led to multiple edits.
There comes a time in every mans life when the smartest choice is to go fishing or take a nap.
If someone would have questioned Bob Coy about his flirtatious ways around women, only just a few months ago, they would have also been accused of, āsowing discord amongst the brethren” … just say’n
Sorry. I see it at this. Accuse me as you will. Many were living after the name of Calvary Chapel and living vicariously under its reputation and so called legacy.
They are disappointed. There are others who seek to live for the name of Jesus and invest their very lives in a legacy that is His rather than attend a church with a reputation.
Jim, that’s what they did to Jesus… try and discredit the messenger because they did’nt agree with the message!
. . . And that is not what you and your like minded group,are doing to Brodersen?
I agree with the message, it’s the messenger that stinks…. really!
Paul believes that it is not the messenger but merely the message. He was willing to dismiss, send off and payoff the messenger . If his message was wrong, then Paul is required to bring correction and help him overcome a wrong message.
If he is a wrong messenger then Paul is required to confront behavior biblically with witnesses from both sides before the elders.
But would it not be collusion or even bordering on blackmail to pay someone off who is in sin to go away and make room for another.
Redirect your righteous speculation and investigation to where the evidence is Mr. Columbo.
Hmmmmm I wonder if Victorious is on Broderson kick back program š
Nope. Just counter acting the slander and accusations.
This is reminding me of the time I challenged the trio of fictitious characters that Sabolick created who then posted here in his defense.
I should get paid by somebody for my efforts. Maybe Kickstarter, gofundme. LOL
What cccm has to Becareful of is that the congregation doesn’t start taking sides in the issue. I m just talking from experience. To me that video was nothing more than a sway tatic to sway people to his side.
Victorious, if your gig ends with broderson any time soon. Seriously, you need to apply to be white house press secretary for Obama. They are always looking for new talent š
E, re your #104, I was a general contractor for years and while attending the CC we worshipped at, I donated over 30k in labor and possibly over that amount in materials. I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do. I can tell you that I had other contractor friends who also provided labor and materials at no cost to the church as well.
Isn’t it possible that the contractor’s involved at CCCM also provided labor and materials at a huge discount?
Victorius, I understand that you don’t put much stock, if any of what Paul shared. What I don’t understand is why it is that you don’t. Were you there when any of this took place. How well do you know the Smith family or even Brian Broderson.
Is it possible that what he is saying is the truth. Why, or why not.
I don’t think that just because someone likes BB or even if he had been at CC for a time that this proves that what Paul is saying is not true. It is highly possible CS after sitting back for awhile became concerned towards the way BB was doing things and had second thoughts about handing CCCM over to him and Cheryl.
Anybody who has been here more than a minute, knows that the only personās payroll that Victorious is on, would be that of Christ Jesus.
I have never listened to one of Brianās teachings, never been to CCCM, but I have friends who have. Several of whom were wounded at various CCās, went to Costa Mesa for healing, and found it in the care of Brian Broderson. That to me speaks of the manās character.
Iāve also read about the arrogance that was exhibited while he served in Europe, but honestly that was what, 15 years ago. Iāve changed tremendously in 15 years, I would presume that Brian has also.
Iāve also read about Paul Smith, and it seems to be the same story, same strife, same arrogance without any changes, ever, and that speaks to his character.
Once and some others don’t seem to realize that in this case, the messenger IS the message.
If I recall at the last senior pastor’s conference while Chuck was still alive, Greg Laurie, Bob Coy and BB shared the mic joking and answering questions. BB was pretty darn sure he was to continue to be the pastor at CCCM. Chuck was there in person and could have stood up and said something if this wasn’t true. However, Brian did point out that the CC movement as a whole was not going to be under his leadership. Separating CCCM and the movement was the topic. With this in mind, I certainly lean towards Paul’s understanding in that TWFT business and organization is really none of BB’s business. That is just the way I see it and you can certainly correct me if I am wrong.
Xenia and Babylon’s Dread have raised the controversy to the level at which it should be discussed. Smith and all those quibbling over Chuck Smith’s ‘spot’ have missed the point altogether and should be laughed off the page. Sadly, they will persist and waste precious time and resources in attempt to gain something they cannot hold & don’t deserve to possess.
with all being said here, I can’t help but think of Matt 19:16-26 ;
“if you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven;and come, follow me.
But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property”
I feel that this is much about money and power done in God’s Name. sad
on everyone’s part
@ Covered, under smiths leadership there was no concern for such things. If there is nothing to hide with broderson, then let an independant 3rd party audit and give a conclusion. Dont we all hope that the head leadership would keep there hands off the filthy lucre? But of course, but what are hearing and what are we seeing ? A smoking gun? Maybe more stuff might come to light. Eitherway, something is amiss in the broderson camp. So lets not trust, but verify, thats if there is nothing to hide right ?
John, why don’t you call CCCM and offer to pay the expense for the independent audit?
A friend sent me a fb msg with this video (he’s someone with not too much personal experience with CC or CS or BB). He asked me what I thought. This is kind of a short summary of how I responded to him – kind of. I feel sad. I’m convinced God used both of these men in my life. Paul mentioned they were looking for someone who could exposit the Word, while Brian was / is there. That seemed so odd to me. I personally think Brian is one of the best Bible expositors of those I’ve heard within CC. And I think what Chuck is known more for is his running commentary type teaching. He’d cover a lot in one night / session. Brian’s studies on Wednesday were referred to as expository studies on their website. I greatly appreciated both of their teaching ministries. I think time will show if / how Brian has hated people there, as Paul said Chuck’s wife Kay said he does. I’ve never known him closely, but I would never imagine him being like that. And it seemed odd to hear Paul say Brian didn’t like Chuck, his father-in-law. My wife met Paul and his wife a few years back (I guess right about the time he was being removed from ministry at CCCM). She said they both seemed so kind and genuine. I met Paul many years ago at a CC Family Camp at Twin Peaks while he was cooking beef on a spit bbq – really good feed. I read that the board and church voted unanimously for Brian to be their new pastor at CCCM. I just don’t think Paul should be doing this. If Brian, and his wife are doing wrong, as I think I heard / read that Chuck used to say about these types of issues, “Give him enough rope and he’ll hang himself” – leave on his own, be forced to resign, etc, as more information is revealed in time. I hope none of that happens. I hope this thing will be resolved. And I hope Brian ministers and teaches the way I’ve known him to in the past.” I think there are the other issues that some have had with Brian’s ministry – much gentler and accepting of other ministries / doctrines than I think he used to be. That’s still interesting to me. And I guess time may also reveal how that will play out. I’ve heard some of his reasonings, which I personally appreciate and ensorse as well. Okay, that’s all.
John, I guess I’m confused at how we went from Paul posting a video with his version of what his dead brother wanted to now some people suggesting that there was some sort of crooked dealings with regards to a construction project that happened years ago.
As far as I’m concerned, this whole mess stinks and we can go on for years looking for skeletons. I am not suggesting that there shouldn’t be transparency but with all of the fires being lit, which one should be put out first?
It seems that Paul has an agenda and for outsiders to throw gas on this volatile situation just adds confusion to the problem.
As I have said many times before, while I am very disgruntled with many CC Pastor’s, it would glorify God to see restoration, transparency and reconciliation. I will add that we may be passed all that though…
@ MLD Great Idea. How about you and I both show up in person to CCCM and well do it together.
http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2014/10/entrust-to-faithful-men.html
E – CCCM owes me no financial accounting. You and John seem very concerned, so Figured if you ponied up the dough it would ease the process.
John said”..”under smiths leadership there was no concern for such things. If there is nothing to hide with broderson, then let an independant 3rd party audit and give a conclusion.” There WERE concerns for such things under Smith. If they were raised, the ones raising the concerns became blessed subtractions, accused of touching God’s anointed or worse. ALL CC’s should be audited IMO and am grateful some CC pastors are seeing the value and integrity of having open books. I don’t believe the Manderson/Smith lawsuit will ever see the light of day in court because there is too much on all sides that none of the parties wish to be made public. Again, IMO.
I believe Paul releasing this video is because the lawsuit will most likely not go forth, but that it gave lots of fuel to fire up division and the video is just another play to sow dissension. Sibling rivalry at its ugliest. Pathetically sad.
MLD, I forgot you don’t go to CC. So I can see why you wouldn’t care about any of it š
Michael @ 73
You hit the nail on the head!
Way back in freshman year of high school Jeff Smith told me, “That man up there in the pulpit is not my dad, my dad is not like that. That is how I know the Holy Spirit is real” he said.
Chuck’s belief system allowed for him to carefully construct an image that was Calvary Chapel as he wanted it to be perceived.
He worked hard at the maintenance of that fabricated facade.
I don’t say this or mean this in a negative way.
Chuck sincerely wanted to present Calvary Chapel and himself in the best light possible, for the sake of Christ, even if it meant stretching a bit here and there, because it was all for the greater good after all .
I am sure that family members and relatives saw so much more than we on the front side of the pulpit ever got to see.
They would know exactly where of I speak.
Who of us would not want to be presented publicly in the best possible light when standing in front of God’s people for the sake of the Gospel?
I know that I would not want you to see a screen up front with all of the things that I do and say in my life. I would definitely seek to edit it prior to you getting to see it….
Years ago. I heard of a CC Church member who went to accounting to ask for the yearly church audit to see where his tithes where going. He got escorted off CCCM grounds and was threatened to never come back or they would call the police.
So much for the biblical mandates for pastors being blameless, and ruling well over their own households before being custodians of the gospel, I guess. To me, the disconnect between the church personna and private one is the biggest reason for doubts that the Holy Spirit really has had that much to really do with most of this.
The “fabricated facade” quality of the whole movement speaks little to me of a true & living God as I look back on the decades of impact it has had on my own life. Others mileage has varied, I know š
E “I heard of a CC Church member who went to accounting to ask for the yearly church audit to see where his tithes where going. He got escorted off CCCM grounds and was threatened to never come back or they would call the police.”
E that is because that member was persecuting them and questioning the Man of God. laypeople should do three things number two is not very important unless it helps support the other two. Pay Pray and Obey. Thats it.
@ #101
I worked on the CCCM building project starting when it was only an empty field to it’s completion in the early 70’s..
Some of the guys had customized Chuck’s new office with those custom touches that were thought befitting for the office of a pastor that they all loved.
In 1973, when Chuck Smith came to see his new office, he demanded that they take out all of the customization touches.
The board always wanted to make the office special but Chuck always held them back from really doing anything.
So it comes as no surprise to me that finally the offices are improved upon, been a looooooooong time coming.
Brian B has done nothing wrong in allowing it finally to take place in my opinion.
***
Brian has been found faithful, how many other pastors have not been found as such lately?
Brian is a wonderful Bible instructor, maybe not the best, he may not be the most gifted or the most anointed or the most charismatic but he is found faithful.
Something highly regarded in Chuck Smith’s eyes. Chuck did not like hirelings…
I have a hard time believing that Chuck did not want Brian to be where he is right now, in his pulpit feeding his sheep!
A wise choice in my eyes.
Skip H is not the most faithful, just ask Albuquerque CC.
David Sloane
I met victorious over 10 years ago, and we happened to both find our own way here on the PP. You guys are really misreading him, as he is anything but someone’s PR person. Don’t be foolish.
Wednesday night at cccm Pete Nelson taught. Wasn’t he the guy who took Skip H. place. If so there are a lot of players in this game. ” Let the games begin” and btw if you’ve forgotten Jesus is watching from the side lines.
Pete Nelson is not a “player”.
Any attempt to drag him through the mud will be dealt with harshly.
We attended CCCM from 1995-Chuck’s passing. What I find sad is that the bottom line of the facility is money, tithes four times a day, we sent our kids to the school there; one time a check was returned, they sent someone to the classrooms pulled our kids out of their class and made them sit in the office until I showed up with payment.
Loving family friendly community my foot, Christ said Love one another , this place has never been about love, maybe at one time, but now it is a big giant money machine, and all the hyenas are trying to get their share of the carcass that is Chuck’s ministry.
I would like to apologies to Brian Brodersen and all of you for the strong statements I made against Brian. Though I strongly disagree with Brian being the pastor of CCCM and his strongarm style of leadership, I believe it is wrong to degrade ANYONE on the Internet and “cyberbullying” though easy to do, can have devastating consequences…
So again, I do apologies and want to end it here and now!
Once, that was cool of you to apologize.
Can I ask a couple of questions, so as to open dialogue?
Why do you disagree with Brian being pastor of CCCM?
What is this “strongarm style of leadership” that you say he uses? Can you provide examples?
Paps, if i answerd you, I would have to repent again…
You will have to waitt until the lawsuit for your answer.
Michael about Pete N.I thought it strange seeing him teach a CCCM last Wednesday after what Skip H. Did to him. I was not calling him a player and just hope he is not being used. I like Pete and pray he doesn’t get burned again by the “Big Players in the game of Hide and Seek.” They hide many things, but our God never slumbers or sleeps and sees “all” just in case they forgot. God help us!
What I find sad is that the bottom line of the facility is money, tithes four times a day,
—————————————————
Charles, our years overlapped some – I was there from 1993-2001.
The four times a day you mention…3 morning services, one Sunday evening service. You meant to write I am sure “four times a week” because those were the only offerings – all on Sunday.
Never any pressure to give from the pulpit and in fact if one of the elders strayed from the very specific statement “And now the ushers will come forward and receive this morning’s tithes and offerings” – then they got an earful from Romaine.
Meanwhile, the church had services throughout the week – with no offerings whatsoever (and there was a time I attended them all). In contrast, my Baptist church where I was for a short season had an offering every time the doors were open.
Wow! So much of these comments are packed with sinful attitudes, assumptions and unrighteousness judging. How can any of you set yourself up to even judge this situation with all this in your heart?! It seems Calvary Chapel can do NOTHING right by your estimations. Shame on you!
I can’t believe I just found this, this will shed light on Paul Smith –
http://ephesians511blog.net/2014/11/14/paul-smith-confession-of-covert-activity-at-calvary-chapel-costa-mesa/
Where’d everyone go? Lost interest? Case goes to trial 3/7/2016 @ 9am CJC – C15.
Very sad. You’ll NEVER know the whole truth of it all. Ya know? “The thoughts and intentions of the heart”
You’d think a smart guy like Chuck woulda planned all this out in great detail and IN WRITING before his departure. You would imagine someone that sick would have a DNR. And that he would never knowingly do anything that would financially rip off his wife or leave her uncared for, especially if he knew she was unable to care for herself. So I would think anything he signed was EXACTLY how he wanted it to be.
In all this I have not seen chucks will mentioned and what his explicit wishes were. I suppose it had one of those “if you try to contest this will and lose you lose it all” statements. I guess TWFT as an Inc. would not be included? Too bad everyone can’t get along and just keep the status quo going just as it was when Chuck was presiding over it all.
And:
If sister JM thought mom was senile in 2006 why is she just now doing something about it?
Poor Kay.
Anti-Slapp Deniedā¦.
Filing Date Docket Text
10/26/2015 Briefing sequence order filed. The court has reviewed the proposed briefing schedule stipulated to by the parties. The court adopts the following briefing schedule: Appellantsā opening brief shall be served and filed no later than January 11, 2016. Respondentsā brief shall be served and filed no later than February 16, 2016. Appellantsā reply brief shall be served and filed no later than March 7, 2016. The matter will be placed on the June 2016 oral argument calendar. Notice will be given of the date and time.
10/20/2015 Proposed briefing sequence filed by: Joint, per 09/17/15 order All briefing will be completed no later than April 19, 2015.
10/15/2015 Reporterās transcript filed. 1-RT NOTICE SENT.
10/7/2015 Filing fee. Paid Appellants Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, et al.
9/30/2015 Notice to reporter to prepare transcript. K. Hutchison.
9/30/2015 Appellant ās notice designating record on appeal filed in trial court on: 09/11/15 (proceeding by CRC, rule 8.124).
9/17/2015 Order filed. This appeal is from the denial of an anti-SLAPP motion. (Code Civ. Proc., Ā§ 425.16.) The Supreme Court has encouraged intermediate appellate courts to resolve those appeals āas expeditiously as possible.ā (Varian Medical Systems, Inc. v. Delfing (2005) 35 Cal.4th 180, 196.) Accordingly, the parties are ORDERED to file with this court a joint proposed briefing schedule. The joint proposed briefing schedule shall be filed no later than October 19, 2015. It shall provide that all briefing will completed no later than April 19, 2016. If the parties fail to act by the above deadline, the court will issue an order imposing an expedited briefing schedule on its own accord. If oral argument is requested, this matter will be placed on the June 2016 oral argument calendar.
9/15/2015 To court. Civil Case Information Statement and misc. folder.
9/15/2015 Civil case information statement filed.
9/15/2015 Certification of Interested Entities or Persons filed. by appellants Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa et al.
9/11/2015 Notice of appeal lodged/received. Appellants Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, et al.
Not sure if you guys saw this.
We posted portion of the August 3, 2015 document filed by Janette Manderson that lays out a very detailed conspiracy beginning in 1998.
http://warning.church/2015/11/27/calvary-chapel-conspiracy-exposed/