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190 Responses

  1. London says:

    I’m not sure how you’re defining “camp” in that last line, otherwise, well written!

  2. Michael says:



    I think what I mean by “outside the camp” is outside the traditional religious structures we’ve created.
    I keep finding God in places where He isn’t mentioned, but is obviously present…

  3. Paige says:

    Bad Mexican food with hot sauce. Ha! Eeks…..

    “They speak of pending natural disasters that are the judgment of God that never falls and of revivals that never come, and often speak of vague “shakings” and violent “winds” of changes to come.”

    It is so utterly tragic to me that so much of what my ears (MY ears) hear from radio preachers lately is so much anger, judgment and wrath in the Name of Jesus. I can’t stand to even listen anymore. Has it always been like this or has my radar just changed frequencies? I honestly don’t know. I am particularly repulsed at the continual harshness that I hear from CC radio programs…. It’s sick….While they claim to be The Way…Corner on the Truth, etc…. I can’t help but think that Jesus Christ would just walk right past That Corner and not even stop in. He’d be more likely found in the barrios of Juarez or jail cells in Iran.

    Your hero prophet Charles Bowden had his fingers on pulses of human activities and news and his conclusions were based on the obvious. If only preachers and teachers in positions of power would do the same.
    I won’t hold my breath.

  4. Michael says:


    Amen and amen.
    It’s been like this for years…we just hear with different ears now.

  5. London says:

    Ok, given that definition, I think I agree with you.
    I think that those “true prophets”, even in the church, don’t advertise themselves as such.
    If you have to bang on about it, it’s probably not that true.

  6. London says:

    that last sentence wasn’t a personal “you”

  7. Michael says:


    I think the key word is “advertise”.
    They’re selling signs and wonders to folks who may be in need of both.

  8. Alex says:


    Great article…very very true.

  9. Alex says:

    Michael said, “I think what I mean by “outside the camp” is outside the traditional religious structures we’ve created.
    I keep finding God in places where He isn’t mentioned, but is obviously present…”


    You are my favorite conservative fundie 🙂

  10. Michael says:

    Thank you, Alex. 🙂

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I agree with your description about “prophets” today – however I don’t think prophets in the church today are any more real than the Easter Bunny. The Bible is God’s prophet – if you want to know the will of God… read it.

    Pastors / teachers are God’s proclaimers of his prophetic WRITTEN word.

    Where I do disagree, is that I do not believe that someone cannot hear God’s voice or that it gets drowned out – people hear God clearly and different folks make different determinations what they are going to do with what they heard – follow it or ignore it or perhaps something in between … but it does not blow by them unnoticed.

  12. Em says:

    it isn’t that Bowden was gifted with foreknowledge, many with common sense saw what was coming… except for the drought, that was a possibility, however…

    i do remember talk when i was a child and the first big post-war wave immigrated into California (for jobs among other things)… “where will the water come from to support all these people?”

    how many others, like Bowden – and those who heard him – were shoved aside as not newsworthy? American culture has been coated in ‘nice.’ We’ve had a lot of successful futurists in the last 40 or so years, but they were all nice… and sanctioned by the academic institutions that we value – somewhat mindlessly, IMO

  13. Alex says:

    “What he did was observe and engage with people and circumstances as they were and through understanding science and economics he was able to reach important conclusions.”


    This is intellectually honest, good stuff.

    Things are not like they were in the OT and NT, they just aren’t. That’s why you get so much Astro Turf within the “church” trying to jin up and manufacture “prophets” and prophecy and “signs and wonders” that just aren’t there to be had in this Age (for some reason).

    The real “wonders” are happening in Science, Medicine, Theoretical Physics and the real “prophets” are men like Bowden and Farrell and many others who are intellectually honest and observe humanity and Society and Govts. and the current System etc…and then use their Reason and Logic and understanding of human nature to draw probable Conclusions about the future.

    It’s not “magic” like we think magic is supposed to be…like walking on water…but it is still prophetic.

    The Hadron Collider isn’t “magic” and walking on water or turning water into wine…but it is certainly amazing and miraculous.

    Our “miracles” today are real and all around us…though they are explainable and understandable.

  14. Michael says:


    Bowden is not remembered for “nice”…and I think that is part of the problem as you accurately observed.

  15. Em says:

    to continue my disjointed reaction to Michael’s “vent”

    weren’t there false messiahs galore in Christ’s day? rabble rousers and opportunists that rode the prophesy bandwagon?

    why is the Church so shallow? aren’t we supposed to watch for Christ’s return to see the signs and pay attention… hmmm…

    praying for God to open eyes

  16. Michael says:


    Thank you.
    I don’t discount the possibility of supernatural manifestations of the gifts.
    I do agree that the primary way God speaks is through His word.

    He’s also speaking through science, medicine, and a host of other activities by the “natural’ gifts he’s given us.

    My contention is that we often cannot hear because we are overwhelmed by the political, cultural, and economic noise we give ear to, as well as the deafness that comes through the embrace of charlatans.

    He still speaks, and those with ears to hear…do.

  17. Bob Sweat says:

    “My conclusion is that God is still speaking to us, but He can’t get a word in over the vain babblings inside the church.”


    Years ago, I purchased the commentary that Ray Stedman wrote on Revelation. The title was Revelation…God’s Final Word to Man. That troubled me to the point where I gave the book away.

  18. Kevin H says:


    I prophesy that the Eagles will trade Sam Bradford, Mark Sanchez, and Tim Tebow to the Niners, not for Blaine Gabbert, but for Colin Kaepernick. 🙂

  19. Alex says:

    “Our “miracles” today are real and all around us…though they are explainable and understandable.”

    Caveat…understandable and explainable to a certain degree…but even top scientists don’t really understand how some of this stuff works…not entirely…yet they can observe that there are some really fascinating things that occur in our Universe/Multi-Verse…like the fact that an electron can be in 6 different places at the same time. Amazing. Speaks of other dimensions we cannot see or perceive with our senses.

  20. Josh The Baptist says:

    Andy Warhol was a prophet.

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Here is the issue I have with prophets in the church today.
    1.) is it their position that God has a “new” word for today. The Bible is outdated, but listen to God in the 21st century?
    2.) What if I don’t like what I read in the Bible? Should I turn to the “prophet to get the New Word?
    3.) Would you trust a prophet if he pulled out a glass ball, all along telling you that it is God speaking?

    I think God’s written word is totally sufficient – I can’t number the times while studying, I see something new. As I said yesterday – Michelle Bachman was a prophet on that radio show – Obama’s negotiations with Iran were going to bring on the Rapture. How can you argue with her prophetic word?

  22. Bob Sweat says:


    Super “K” might be a good fit.

  23. Alex says:

    Kevin H, I prophesy that Tebow is gay and still can’t hit the broad side of a barn…but would make a good H-back or tight-end in Chip Kelly’s offense.

    I further prophesy that the Chargers will be mediocre…good enough to win a few big games…but not good enough to close the deal when it counts.

    And further…the ‘Hawks will be there again next season…Russell Wilson, Beastmode, the Legion of Boom…AND Jimmy Graham? YIKES!

  24. Alex says:

    Ron Paul is a prophet, read and listen to some of his stuff from the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and early 2000’s. Spot on, unfortunately.

  25. Josh The Baptist says:

    Why in the world would Tebow be a good H-back or tight end? He has never blocked, caught passes, and isn’t particularly fast.

    Alex is a false prophet. Let’s stone him 🙂

  26. Alex says:

    MLD said, “1.) is it their position that God has a “new” word for today. The Bible is outdated, but listen to God in the 21st century?”

    Pretty much what Luther did in the 15th Century

  27. Alex says:

    “Alex is a false prophet. Let’s stone him”

    LOL, as long as it is the brownies and not smoked, smoking is bad for you 🙂

  28. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I had a professor in college back in the late 60s who said one day we would have 500 TV channels – who would ever believe that guy?

    As far as the drought goes, you don’t need a crystal ball – just keep electing stupid politicians.

  29. Alex says:

    “Take your rebellious child to the gates and STONE him!”–The bible.

    Fundamentalist literalists in Denver, Colorado are taking this verse to heart….can I get an AMEN! 🙂

  30. Alex says:

    MLD, you idiots in Commiefornia do realize you have a big ol’ thing of water right next to you…called the Pacific Ocean 😉

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex, “Pretty much what Luther did in the 15th Century”

    Luther had no new word. There is not a thing that Luther said that was not said before.

  32. Alex says:

    …there’s this newfangled technology…it’s called “Desalinization” and what it does is it MAGICALLY turns sea water into fresh water…but you have to do some chants and pray real hard and make sacrifices to the water gods first….

  33. Alex says:

    Yes, Luther did have a new word, much different word than previous to him and much different than the Early Church.

  34. Josh The Baptist says:

    Tim Tebow is not gay.

    His boyfriend might be, though.

  35. Michael says:


    This is the true significance of the “blood moons”…

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – that was my politician statement – they are run by environmentalist. The decision to look into hi speed rail vs desalination plants is a good example. And the plants could almost run on nuclear power if we weren’t such a bunch of girlie men.:-)

  37. Alex says:

    “His boyfriend might be, though.”

    BWUAHAHAHAHA! You owe me a new laptop…coffee and computers don’t mix 🙂

  38. Alex says:

    MLD, LOL and true for you guys and gals there in Commiefornia, unfortunately.

    You are run by idiots, elected by a majority of idiots.

    I guess when you are paying $100 per shower and flush, you’ll do something about it.

  39. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – “Yes, Luther did have a new word, much different word than previous to him and much different than the Early Church.”

    I will leave you with this – you have not read much Luther have you?

    Read the 95 theses and get back to me. You should be able to handle it as it is not a religious document but a 16th century political protest document. Then perhaps you will be able to come back and discuss the reformation.

  40. Alex says:

    I’ve read Luther and the Reformation many times over.

    Luther wanted to throw out the entire Book of James from the Canon b/c it didn’t fit into Luther’s new view of Sola Scriptura which was not the shared view of the Early Church.

    Luther was in fact both “new” and “different” than earlier “church” iterations that preceded him.

    That is fact, not opinion.

  41. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Actually I think that the state’s best program would be to pay for 5 million CA residents to move to Idaho.
    Our problems fixed – your problems begin. 🙂

  42. Michael says:

    For those interested Bowdens book on water is called “Killing the Hidden Waters” and is available through used book stores on Amazon.

    The problem for New Mexico, Arizona, and California isn’t so much drought…it’s that when you live in the desert, drought is expected.
    It’s a desert.
    They’re using up the groundwater faster than it is refreshed and when it’s gone the consequences for the entire country are significant.
    The biggest aquifer in this country feeds the breadbasket of America…and it’s running low.

    Some are already looking to Oregons water as a solution…and my son will have to make decisions with the rest of the electorate here about how that works out.

  43. Alex says:

    We’d put up a Border Fence and man it with guns 🙂

  44. Alex says:

    Michael, it’s simple fix but the extreme Environmentalist Agenda will have to be overcome to fix it.

    We have plenty of water. The problem is the Enviro Extremists won’t let folks access it.

  45. Alex says:

    “The Oceans are RISING!!!”

    OK, then build Desalination Plants and lower the Oceans and get fresh water to the deserts you morons.

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – “Luther wanted to throw out the entire Book of James from the Canon ”

    show me his statement where he said that James did not belong in the scriptures?
    1.) he worked his way through all of the books that had been in question in the past – and came out on the right side. Look up Antilegomena .. heck I’ll do it for you – that’s a big word.

    2.) James is in Luther’s translation of the Bible – just because he had a phase does not mean that is the position he came down on. Is it fair that I say Alex is a 5 point calvinist fundamentalist Christian? I can show those very writings of yours here on this blog 5 years ago — but you worked your way through stuff and would be offended by such a description today.

  47. Kevin H says:

    C’mon guys. Why are you arguing about the water. Do you seriously think this is a problem Tim Tebow can’t solve (with or without his supposed boyfriend)? He’ll have it fixed by the next blood moon. If some Californian team would have signed him before the Eagles, he probably would have had the problem fixed before the last blood moon.

  48. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t see what the water problem is – if the lakes and reservoirs get low, throw a hose in and fill them up.

  49. Nonnie says:

    In your discussion of how God talks to people, it reminded me of my friend “Pete.”

    I work with learning disabled people (special needs folks) and several years ago was assigned to work with “Pete.”
    Pete can walk to the store by himself and find his way back home, but he cannot read or count out money. He will never be able to live without assistance. If you were a casual observer, you would think he was drunk or on drugs by the way he walks and talks. Another characteristic of Pete is that he swore something terrible. About every other word that came out of his mouth was a curse word

    I was assigned to work with Pete, taking him shopping and selecting food so that we could cook it for lunch.

    One day, the issue of God came up because Pete had a terrible toothache and I asked him if I could pray for him. We talked a little bit about God and I told him that Jesus cared about his pain and we could ask Him for help. Pete had never heard or seen anyone pray. He wanted to know all about it, so I told him more about Jesus and how God loves him (us) and is always watching over us and is with us, if we ask Him to be.

    Pete was nervous about having to go to the dentist as he has had some bad experiences in the past. He asked me “Could God help me not to punch the dentist when he works on my teeth?” So we prayed about it. I encouraged him to ask God to keep him calm when he was in the dentist chair and that God would help him.

    The next week when I came in, Pete was so excited to tell me…. “I didn’t punch the dentist and Jesus helped me!” We prayed and thanked God for helping him.

    Pete told me how he gets in arguments and fights with family members, even throwing a mug of tea at another person. One day as he was telling me about this, he paused and started asking the following questions:

    “Will God help me not to throw my mug when I feel cross?”

    “If I tell them to @£%^ (cursing), will God be angry with me?”

    I explained that God always loves him but would probably prefer him to speak words of kindness, or just walk away when he was angry. We talked about asking God to forgive him when he does something he knows is wrong and to help him to forgive others.

    Pete asked me how God talks to us and how he can know what God is saying or how to know what God wants him to do.

    “Pete, How do you feel when you curse at people and throws things at people.”

    “I feel bad and sad. “

    “You see, Pete, that is God telling you that speaking that way is not good.”

    Over the years I have worked with Pete and he always tells me “I’m still praying to God.”
    And I always reply how that makes God’s heart happy!

    A few years ago “Pete’s” father has passed away.
    Shortly afterwards “Pete” started attending the day center where I work one day a week. As we set down to lunch one day he said, “I am still praying to God.
    He told me how he had been kind to his dad and that when he was bad, he prayed to God to forgive him.

    Then he looked at me and this simple man asked me a profoundly theological question?
    Pete said, “Did God pour His goodness into me? Does God make me happy?

    Tears welled up in my eyes as I sat there pondering the beauty of that statement. “That’s right Pete. God certainly has poured His goodness into you. God makes you happy. “

    Let us not limit the way that God can speak to and through people.

  50. Michael says:


    That was wonderful.
    Thank you…very much.

  51. Josh The Baptist says:


    God just spoke to me through Nonnie’s post.

  52. Josh The Baptist says:

    For those of you livin out west.

  53. Alex says:

    MLD, your explanation of Luther’s “in process” is actually support for my position that he didn’t hold to the previous Consensus of the “church” before him and hashed out his own “word” from God the way he saw it.

  54. Alex says:

    Agreed about Nonnie’s story…good stuff. Even though I think it’s more “Pete” experiencing a form of Cognitive Therapy and Sowing and Reaping principle…it is “magic” in the sense that changing one’s mind does “work” if you identify an issue as “bad” and then talk to “God” and focus on changing that particular behavior to something you believe is “good”

  55. Nonnie says:

    Oh, Alex…poor Alex. May God bless you with some wonder an awe in your life.

  56. Em says:

    Nonnie, another ‘thank you’ for that post… perhaps you, too, have a book to write

  57. Alex says:

    What is rather ironic to me as someone who embraces reality and science and medicine and reason…but also embraces spirituality and “God” and doesn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater…is that there are many things in the “bible” and Christianity that can and do really have a scientifically proven positive effect on folks…and is akin to Cognitive Therapy.

    The trick is making sure you choose what is “good” and what is “bad” behavior.

    If you pray to “God” and focus on dominating your wife in an abusive relationship as “she must submit to me as unto God!” then…well….you’ll certainly do more of that…and your poor wife and kids will suffer and you’ll end up becoming a monster and a cult leader.

    If you’re going to sign on to the “transformation Gospel”…pick things that are really truly “good”…and pray to “God” and focus on loving your neighbor more and helping people who are weaker and in need and worry less about those outside the church like the gays that want to get married.

  58. Jim says:

    Nonnie just made me cry. Beautiful.

  59. Alex says:

    Nonnie, I actually feel pity for you and others (not in a bad or condescending way).

    I have experienced so much awe and so much less fear and experienced true curiosity and wonder and freedom in being intellectually honest.

    I feel truly sorry for folks who live in so much fear and personal prison who give so much power to the opinions of church leaders and men who really control them and box them in.

    “God” is not what you think and its OK, you don’t have to be afraid and you don’t have to keep check-lists and you don’t have to be “100% correct!” and the opinion of a particular pastor or leader is no more powerful than your cat’s opinion of you.

    Don’t do bad stuff b/c it hurts you and other people and there are consequences…but don’t think you have to have perfect doctrine or perfect behavior as carefully defined by a church or cult or philosophy to keep your favor with “God” and to avoid some sort of eternal torture.

  60. Jim says:


    Your chicken and egg might be out of order. Perhaps Cognitive Therapy can look like God pouring His goodness into Pete.

  61. Alex says:

    It’s actually really a form of Progressive Revelation, IMO.

    “God” is revealing more to science and mankind every day…to those who have ears let them hear 🙂

  62. Alex says:

    “pity” is probably not the right word as it has a negative connotation.

    “empathy” or “compassion” is probably a better way to describe the essence of my comment above.

    I know what it is like to really think you have to have “correct doctrine” and to “live correctly” per the very defined and very dogmatic “rules” laid out in every “Christian” denomination and sect….all as a quid pro quo to please an angry “God” who will nuke you in hell forever unless you tow the “correct” doctrinal line and go with the flow of a particular church and their gurus and leaders. Most have some grace for gluttons and divorcees and hetero-fornicators (if you’re in the pastorate)…taboo sins like homosexuality or not tithing/giving to the church or not attending services…not so much.

    It’s really a bizarre construct and not at all what a big part of the Jesus narrative is all about…but that is what “church” has become, sadly…and I have both experienced it directly as well as observed it directly for many years.

    Even the nicest most sincere orthodox (little o) Christians have this threat hanging over their heads constantly…and they are so afraid if you dig beneath the veneer.

    Perfect love casts out all fear? “Christians” are the most fearful Group I have ever observed, unfortunately.

  63. Em says:

    the mind is flesh, an organ in the body designed by God to do incredible things – incredible – it is presumptuous to conclude that God can’t work with what He has created… enter into the processor and override the bad programming… Pete asked God for help and he got it !!! straight from heaven… we all can, but we’re lazy and shallow and earthly… for those of us, like myself, for whom faith comes slowly there is the advice of Romans 12:2

    MLD’s #21 amen to that

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    All science does is discover what God has already put in place to sustain mankind. When the Bible speaks of healing, I have never understood that to mean anything other than go to the doctor … and they apply whatever kind of medicine is available at that time. Even something as simple as “take a little wine for your stomach.”

    I have no problem with science at all – I do have an issue sometimes with the philosophy of science – which by the way never occurs in the lab – but always in the classroom.

  65. Nonnie says:

    Alex, I (think) actually agree with your statements on your 59.

    I too refuse to be boxed in by anyone or anything, other than the love of Jesus Christ, which is deep and wide.
    I know my doctrine and theology isn’t perfect, but the One I have placed my trust in is perfect…. and He is able keep that which I have committed unto Him.

  66. Alex says:

    “I have no problem with science at all – I do have an issue sometimes with the philosophy of science – which by the way never occurs in the lab – but always in the classroom.”

    Agreed, there is Science and then there are those who make it a Philosophy and akin to a Religion…the New Atheists do this.

  67. Alex says:

    Nonnie, agreed.

    That is what I am expressing and glad to hear it of you.

    I am unafraid and I love “God” in whatever form…I just am OK with not being as certain about it all as say my certainty about gravity or my certainty in the laws of physics of this planet.

  68. Bob says:

    It has been my observation the reason why many in Christianity and other religions are easily swayed by their “prophets” is because they want to be and (most important) they are ignorant of the very texts and traditions their “faith” is based on, which provide standards by which to measure such prophets.

    But are the secular the saints and any less guilty of such actions? No.

    There is more than enough empirical evidence humanity is living on an energy time bomb. A bomb which will eventually bring heartache, suffering and difficult living in biblical portions. Yet humanity lives like the well will never run dry.

    So why would we expect those of faith to live any different than those in the secular world?

    Michael’s prophet observed what was and is happening and people just listen to the piper who plays the tune they enjoy most. Ignorance is bliss and burning books keeps us in the “zone.”

  69. Alex says:

    Now, if Dread or one of the Charismatics walks on water or turns water into wine…I will be happy to sign on to their Sect.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex, your #62 proves only that you understand nothing about the Christian faith and are just peddling pagan nonsense. You spout off how we are all unable to understand and you have figured it out.

    2,000 yrs of the historic faith vs Alex’s 18 months new founded pagan religion. Let me see which grouping I will put myself in—hmmm.

  71. Bob says:


    “Now, if Dread or one of the Charismatics walks on water or turns water into wine…’

    Does it count many of us have taken water, grain, hops and turned it into beer?

    Maybe a little foot stomping on some grapes counts?

  72. Alex says:

    MLD, no, I don’t have it all figured out, I have just figured out that what man says and what carefully-constructed-by-men gurus and leaders say does not equal “God”

  73. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex,”Agreed, there is Science and then there are those who make it a Philosophy”

    You still do not understand – e=mc2 is science. Anything said after that, even an attempt to explain it or how it is to be applied has now leaped into the philosophy of science.

  74. Alex says:

    MLD said, “You still do not understand – e=mc2 is science. Anything said after that, even an attempt to explain it or how it is to be applied has now leaped into the philosophy of science.”


    We can make some accurate assumptions of conclusions others have drawn when we look at Scientific evidence.

    For instance, we can examine an artifact that a Christian Group would claim is real and authentic and proves their particular position…and if the tangible evidence shows it to be a fake or reproduction we can conclude that the “evidence” the Group claimed is not good evidence.

    We cannot claim “therefore there is NO GOD!” and we cannot claim “therefore Jesus didn’t exist!” etc.

    But, there are many claims folks can make based on evidence observed by Science.

    One of those issues is Old Earth vs. Young Earth. The evidence is overwhelming that the planet and universe is very old, much older than 6,000 years.

  75. Alex says:

    Fortunately, there are Christians who are intellectually honest within Groups like BioLogos and many others who look at tangible evidence we do have and can observe as fact and then make some accurate conclusions about the Positions of others.

    For instance, there are Imams in Islam who claim the sun revolves around the earth…and I can confidently state that is not true.

  76. Alex says:

    We can observe the facts we have that the earth is old and that humankind has evolved…and conclude that a literal interpretation of Genesis as a science book is not true.

  77. Alex says:

    MLD, does the sun revolve around the planet earth? There is an Imam who says the Koran says that literally so therefore the earth does not revolve around the sun…

    Similarly, there is much evidence that the earth is old and that humans evolved…yet many Christians say “NO! Can’t be, bible doesn’t say that literally!”

    Some will see the analogy…and it’s true.

  78. filbertz says:

    I disagree with MLD on his assertion that the Bible is the only prophetic word for the Church. I concur with others on the on-going work of the Holy Spirit in revealing specific truth and information to his people. I don’t believe these ‘revelations’ are to the entire Church, but to specific needs. These ‘revelations’ are not to be canonized, nor are they in conflict with scripture. Preachers exercise an aspect of the prophetic gift in that they speak forth the word of God. Their use of scripture is part of that, but so too, their application of scripture, which does not specifically emanate from the text, can be prophetic also–in that it gives insight, information, ‘revelation,’ or direction to those who hear.

  79. London says:

    I agree with Flip!

  80. Bob says:


    “humankind has evolved…”

    First what do you mean by “evolved” in the sense of humankind?

    Genetic evidence would indicate homo-sapiens have not “evolved” in any real measurable way.

    What was the first recorded adult beverage? Beer. The point is?

    Wine is a whole lot simpler to make than beer and yet it is recorded that beer was first commercially produced over wine. Beer took some fundamental science such as the conversion of starches to sugars and yet here we are today still using the same process many millennium later. Not much evolution going on here.


    Seriously I believe Stephen Oppenheimer brings the theory alive and in the end we find genetic reduction of the species and not addition as humanity spread around the globe from the mother of all, “Eve.”

    Of course the ability to destroy 100s of millions of people all at once is evolution of humanity.

    You get it and engaging with MLD is like denting the wall with your head.

    Have a beer.

  81. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hmm, I don’t remember saying that the Holy Spirit does not speak or work with people. I do remember saying that God does not speak through prophets today.

    Again, I ask how anyone here would dispute Michelle Bachman’s prophetic voice that Obama is bringing on the rapture through his treaty signing with Iran?

    The Holy Spirit bringing Pete to Jesus is exactly what the Bible says is the Holy Spirit’s function.

  82. Muff Potter says:

    Touch not mine anointed Michael !

    (tongue in cheek of course)

    Well written and I concur. If Missler, Prasch, Stone, Hagee, and others could look up from their revenue stream for a moment, they might learn something too.

  83. filbertz says:

    MLD–I was referencing your #11. If I misread it, I apologize for misrepresenting your view in expressing my own. If the Holy Spirit speaks through a person, is that not a prophetic voice? On the other hand, much of what passes for ‘prophets’ and ‘prophesy’ is cheap imitation or entire fabrication. Michele Bachmann is simply spouting what she’s heard from others and carries as much weight as damp toilet paper.

  84. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Fil, you know that is interesting. Does the Holy Spirit speak through people?

    Or do people who are tuned into their Bibles able to give Godly advise? I don’t think Nonnie was speaking as a prophet when she spoke with Pete. I don’t necessarily think that the Holy Spirit was speaking “through” her. How about she was so close to scripture that she knew the right thing to say and the scriptures flowed right out of her as the scripture does what it says it will do (save people) – so the scriptures empowered Nonnie to walk Pete through this time and then when the Holy Spirit worked in Pete, it was real.

  85. Em says:

    there’s Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 that have been exploited by charlatans and, maybe those who are just eager to find the supernatural (the “itching ears” of 2Tim 4:3 ?).

    it isn’t scientific method that the Church needs – we need for God to raise us up some sound, qualified and focused teachers – put them where we can hear them …

    pray for Michael’s health … and a little prosperity wouldn’t hurt

    probably got too many Bible verses up there … oh well …

  86. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hebrews 1 says that prophets are in the past – the old way God used to communicate. Now, he does it through Jesus Christ.

    “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, ”

    So put away your modern day prophets, because they have put away Jesus.

  87. Em says:

    #84 … how about “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” from Hebrews 4 ESV

    i’d bet the Holy Spirit was speaking through Nonnie that day … from her spiritual frame of reference

  88. the other pastor mike says:

    I think there are prophetic words that God gives, although I am not convinced the office of the prophet is in existence today, at least I have not seen a Prophet in my lifetime. I’ve seen a lot who either are deceivers or deceived themselves. When God gives me prophetic words, the content usually affirms my place of exile.

  89. filbertz says:

    I get what you’re saying about the Heb 1 reference, but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker. First, the comparison about speaking through Christ is simply a construction showing the superiority of God speaking face-to-face with man as opposed to through an intermediary. Secondly, in the NT listing of gifts and offices, prophet is clearly listed. Heb. reference doesn’t negate nor trump the others.

  90. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    the other pastor mike,
    Can you tell me how God gives his prophetic word to you? I would hope you would say “through the Bible” – but if not, why or where is the Bible lacking?

  91. Em says:

    what exactly is a prophesy anyway?

  92. London says:

    Oh Em, please.
    You know we would rather argue about something for days and days than to define it and find were pretty much all in agreement.
    Get with the program would ya? 😉

  93. Alex says:

    Bob said, “Have a beer.”

    Bob, you’re a Prophet!

    ….having one now 🙂

  94. Michael says:

    Prophecy is foretelling or forth telling the word of God.

  95. Em says:

    London 😆 you noticed that, too?

    Michael, is there prophesy – prophetic declarations that come true – apart from the Divinely inspired ?

  96. Michael says:


    I would guess that Satan is well able to counterfeit prophetic words…but all truth is God’s truth.

  97. Michael says:

    “Can you tell me how God gives his prophetic word to you? I would hope you would say “through the Bible” – but if not, why or where is the Bible lacking?”

    The Bible is not lacking.
    That is a straw man.
    I believe the Spirit still communicates with us through many varied ways…none of which will ever contradict a scriptural principle.

  98. Em says:

    #96 – thank you, Michael… i have reason to believe this is true and dangerous…

    amen to #97

    it is probably better to follow Alex’s example, put your fingers in your ears and keep repeating it’s not scientific than it is to swallow any supernatural phenomena as coming right from God simply because some fellow struts about declaring he speaks for God

  99. Em says:

    ummm “true and dangerous” that didn’t come out right … i was responding to the first half, the counterfeit comment

  100. Michael,
    “I believe the Spirit still communicates with us through many varied ways…”

    What are those ways? This is important. Why isn’t the spirit just coming to us – why does he need to give Michelle Bachman the message first to give to me? Remember, the conversation wasn’t does God’s spirit still interact with people – but does God use prophets.

    How many prophetic utterances would need to come from John Hagee before you would believe they are from God?

  101. brian says:

    some of the greatest prophets our those that just share kind / needed words / actions in the quiet of the day.

  102. Surfer51 says:

    My thoughts on this post about prophets is to try to clarify, from a Biblical perspective, the issue as I see it…


    Thanks for sharing Pete with us.

    In a lot of ways I can relate to Pete in the deepest parts of myself.

    We ‘normies’ are supposed to have filters that prevent us from spontaneous actions.

    We don’t act out on our reactions to outside stimulus because of these filters.

    Jesus has pointed out many times, it is what is in our hearts that matters just as much as our outward actions do.

    Therefore, I like brother Pete, do have to come to God as a child asking for His Fatherly help in my own life.

    “And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.…”
    Matthew Chapter Eighteen Verse Three

    Lord help me to be as a child and come to You in simplicity like Pete does.

  103. Nonnie says:

    MLD, I have always believed that what Pete said, “Did God pour His goodness into me?” was inspired by the Holy Spirit. He certainly did not hear that phrase from me.

    A learning disabled man, who cannot read or write, and yet he spoke forth the the truth of God.

  104. Xenia says:

    The thing about Nonnie’s wonderful story is that it wasn’t about correct doctrine or fear, it was all about love. I feel sorry for anyone who feels sorry for Nonnie.

  105. Xenia says:

    I believe there are prophets in the Church today.

  106. Michael says:

    “Remember, the conversation wasn’t does God’s spirit still interact with people – but does God use prophets.”

    God speaks through people, circumstances, even pets.

    I’ve never known a person to be a prophet who claimed they were one…but I’ve had people speak prophetically to me more times than I can possibly count.

  107. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is amazing that we have now turned the office of prophet into 2 people sitting at Starbucks speaking the things of God to each other now being proclaimed as prophets.

    I can pass wisdom of the scriptures on to others without ever claiming it is a prophetic message as in “Thus saith the Lord” or claiming that I am a prophet.

    I think if their are modern day prophets we should know who they are – when Elijah came to town, people knew who he was.

  108. Xenia says:

    When I think of prophets in Ortholandia, a few come to mind, people most you have never heard of, but monastic elders who have been given the Holy Spirit gift of seeing into the future a little bit, regarding individual people, usually. Quietly done. Elder (now Saint) Paisios is an example. My own St. Xenia had this gift.

  109. Nonnie says:

    I guess it all depends on what your view of what prophecy is.. I agree with Micheal’s.
    “Prophecy is foretelling or forth telling the word of God.”

    MLD,what is your definition of prophecy? Maybe that would clear things up.

    (if you have already said it, forgive me. I guessed I missed it.)

  110. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Nonnie – I am not speaking of seeing in the future stuff – that was the Michelle Bachman prophecy. And no one yet has told me why I should not take her message as a “thus saith the Lord”

    And I am not speaking of people speaking wisdom from the scriptures into each other – this is what everyday Christians do. This is what you did with Pete that allowed him to recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit … are you a prophetess? I don’t think you would make that claim.

    The title of the article is Prophets — not Prophecies.

    What seems to pass as prophecies from prophets are Bible sayings spoken in the fashion of fortune cookie messages. So what is the difference between a message of hope that I may give to someone in passing, sharing my faith, putting a stone in their shoe to make them think – and the message that they may receive from a ‘real’ prophet. (I am not even a fake prophet.)

  111. Nonnie says:

    I guess we need MLD to tell us what Joel 2:28 means?
    You have told us what a prophet is NOT, but have not defined what a prophet is.
    Michael told us what he believes it to be, but you have refuted that. I am asking you, with all due respect what your definition is. I’m a bit perplexed.

    And yes, you are correct! I do not claim to be a prophet.

  112. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Nonnie sorry – I thought I was clear. I don’t think that anyone holds the office of prophet today.

  113. Nonnie says:

    MLD, Ok, I can go with that. Tell me what you think a prophesy is, as in Joel 2:28.
    Is speaking a prophesy different from the office of a prophet?

    Please know I ask this sincerely. I respect your opinion. I may not agree all the time, but I certainly respect you!

  114. Michael says:


    So…when someone speaks prophetically, what do you call them?

  115. Xenia says:

    I would not use the phrase “office of prophet.” Rather I would say that occasionally God grants a prophetic word to people.

  116. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “So…when someone speaks prophetically, what do you call them?”

    Michelle Bachman or any of the names you called them above.

    I guess I am trying to figure out who has spoken prophetically (from God) in our lifetime. Can you give me an example of one that is not something like “go in peace and God will reward you.”

  117. filbertz says:

    I don’t think a prophesy is tied to a particular interpretation of scripture–a prophetic message would supersede man-made angles and clarify truth. Hence, Bachmann is simply repeating a doctrinal perspective, not being prophetic nor repeating a prophesy.

  118. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Just as with the ESPN lady getting caught on video, can anyone point me to a youtube of an authentic prophecy / prophetic message that is accepted by the Church?

    As I said yesterday, this is important stuff. If there are actual prophets walking around giving actual prophetic messages, many others beside myself need to have this pointed out.

    We teased a couple of weeks ago about a “prophecy” website and everyone laughed and tore them apart (me at the forefront). Where is the true?

  119. Xenia says:

    In my world, genuine prophets are not on TV or youTube.

    It has happened (off camera) that a person will visit an elder (usually an elderly, humble monastic), ask a personal question, and will receive a prophetic answer that comes true.

    These stories abound in Orthodox literature.

  120. Josh The Baptist says:

    Anyone delivering a message from God is using the gift of prophecy.

    There is no longer and Office of Prophecy or Apostle. The cannon is closed.

  121. Alex says:

    I am more inclined to believe X’s story.

    I will have to do some personal investigation into the EO and their monastics.

  122. Alex says:

    If Jesus showed up today he wouldn’t be on TBN or DayStar or making the MSM TV news rounds etc.

    He seemed to arrive low key…so much so that it’s hard to find extant writings about him…and his “miracles” seemed to be low key as well…as exampled by the scant extant writings.

    This garbage that passes as “church” and Jesus today is really anti-christ and his example from what I read “literally” in the Gospel accounts and early church NT accounts.

  123. Alex says:

    If there is “real” and authentic out there in Christian-land…it’s very hard to find in terms of quantifiable supernatural power.

  124. filbertz says:

    …quantifiable supernatural… is an oxymoron.

  125. Josh The Baptist says:

    I saw the dead raised to life Sunday. Does that count?

  126. London says:

    People of the muted gods.
    Some made of wood, some of stone, and some of the paper in a book.

  127. Josh The Baptist says:

    I’ve seen broken families put back together. Addicts give up the drugs. Criminals lives changed.

    That’s enough supernatural evidence for me.

  128. Em says:

    still haven’t figured out what a prophet or a prophesy really is… in present day Christian life

    *if you’re walking down the street in front of me and i see a flower pot fall off of 4th story ledge in front of us and yell, “look out!” am i a prophet?
    *if i’m visiting that 4th story apartment and see the flower pot on the ledge and say, “someday that flower pot is going to fall off of there on somebody’s head!” am i a prophet?

    *are prophesies of things to come valid, if there is nothing that we can do about them anyway – especially those given one on one?

    good advice is welcome, tho

  129. Josh The Baptist says:

    A prophet is one who delivers a Divine message. Period. In Old Testament times those messages were foretelling the future, but usually in a way that the first readers did not understand. Those prophecies are for later readers, like us.

    The office of Prophet is no longer viable. God has established the church and continues to speak through His word.

    When you share with someone a valid message from god, even a “Jesus loves you!”, you are exercising the gift of prophecy. BUT!!! You are not a Prophet. Your words will never be part of the cannon.

  130. Em says:

    Josh the Baptist, aren’t you describing the supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit? amen to that … but, cycling back to where this thread started, i agree with those who think that focus on prophesies of things to come is a dangerous preoccupation for the Church … especially when the prophets are paid to exercise their gift-so-called

  131. Em says:

    “A prophet is one who delivers a Divine message. Period.” okay, that’s a definition… 🙂

  132. Linda Pappas says:

    Not all Prophets always put forth a prophecy that was for the far future. It can and often was for the immediate or short span of time that certain events would occur if this, or that was not heeded, done, or accomplished.

  133. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – “A prophet is one who delivers a Divine message.”
    What is a divine message? Is it the Sunday sermon or how about my 2 friends sitting at Starbucks filling each others ears with Bible talk … are they prophets?

    If we are going to expand the prophet definition to anyone speaking about the one true God – then are we all prophets?

    In the same way, are we all pastors?

  134. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh says; “When you share with someone a valid message from god, even a “Jesus loves you!”, you are exercising the gift of prophecy. BUT!!! You are not a Prophet.”

    Which validates my first statement at #11 – “however I don’t think prophets in the church today are any more real than the Easter Bunny.”

  135. Alex says:

    Fil said, “…quantifiable supernatural… is an oxymoron.”

    Not according to the OT and NT….

    Jesus walking on water and turning water into wine…prophets calling down fire from heaven….Jesus walking around with holes in his hands and side after being dead for three days…very quantifiable if it was true and very quantifiable if it happened today…

  136. Linda Pappas says:

    When a man whom I have never seen walks into my place of employment directly up to me, sits down then tells me not to fear for there are angels about me to guard me the remainder of my life, but then tells me about my life, details that only God would know, then tells me that to I would suffer much in the future to come but not to fear for many would be blessed in the suffering of my faith—–then gets up and leaves while leaving a rose behind——-then yeah, I have to believe there are still prophets operating amongst us in present times. Surreal, to say the least. And when your Co-workers come up to you to ask you who that man was——all I could say was, I don’t know and kept the rest to myself.

  137. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Explainable supernatural is difficult.

    If Jesus was raised from the dea, well that is pretty hard to explain on the natural realm. If Jesus was virgin born, although you could quantify it, you can’t explain it … other than what the text says.

  138. Xenia says:

    Prophecies from Orthodox elders are like this:

    “Ivan, you look perfectly healthy today but you are going to die in three days and you had better take these three days to repent because you are going to meet God very soon.”

    “Natalia, your husband’s illness looks fatal but he is going to live and you are going to have five more children and one of them will be a priest.”

    “Vladimir, you had better move from that house because there will be a fire there soon.”

  139. filbertz says:

    as Alex quantifies supernatural, it is an oxymoron.

    I qualified a super, natural comment.

  140. Em says:

    well, how do you “quantify” a walk on water? how long it was? how far? did it break the surface tension? by how much? … some bugs do it … is it supernatural if it can be measured?

  141. Xenia says:

    I think by quantify, Alex means verifiable scientific proof. For example, an X-ray shows a large brain tumor, the person is prayed for, and the next X-ray shows it instantly gone and it doesn’t come back.

  142. Em says:

    thank you, Xenia… this has been an interesting thread to follow

  143. Josh The Baptist says:

    I would say there have been zero verifiable miracles, ever, including Jesus’, according to Alex’s standards.

  144. Bob says:

    “The office of Prophet is no longer viable.”

    There never was an “office” of a prophet. One might also notice through Jesus’ very words the people of the day also had difficulty with “prophets.”

    The best definition I have ever heard of a prophet’s message is this, “calling people back to God.”

    Oh how come the Eph. 4 chapter mentions the “prophets” as part of equipping the church?

    Also someone said God speaks through the word? The church and the Jews have had the written word for a very long time. So why is it both fill in the blanks and create new laws through tradition and (more so on the Christian side) are guilty of synchronization of pagan beliefs and rituals into the practices?

    Let’s get back to God, He is good all the time.

  145. Josh The Baptist says:

    “There never was an “office” of a prophet.”

    Sure there was.

  146. filbertz says:

    verifiable is not quantifiable. Alex always uses the terms which equate to scientific measurement and to meet its scrutiny. Super-natural means above or beyond the natural, so science cannot measure or ‘quantify’ it, as science is limited to the natural. Sorry I needlessly stirred the pot.

  147. Alex says:

    Well, Fil, as Richard Dawkins famously says, “words have meaning”…and as is common in theological/doctrinal/religious/philosophical discussions….folks freely use whatever they want as to define and redefine particular words and phrases.

  148. Alex always thinks it is scientific to ask “how much does blue weigh?” If you cannot answer, well there just is no such thing as blue.

  149. Why believe anything Richard Dawkins says? He is not a trained theologian but he spews his ignorance.

    Alex, Go read Alister McGrath – he has the same science doctorate from the same university around the same time as Dawkins and he also has a doctorate in theology.

    And may I suggest you read something with a binding on it and not just internet quips. 😉

  150. Josh The Baptist says:

    Fil is absolutely correct, and Alex is looking for something he will never find.

    In some ways I empathize. I went through a period where I chased those things around. Found out they were fake. Destroyed my faith for a short bit, until I found something real and better.

  151. filbertz says:

    Well Alex, as Darryl Dawkins famously said, “When everything is said and done, there is nothing left to say or do.”

  152. Bob says:


    “Sure there was.”

    Please explain? The reason why I ask is there are biblical definitions for positions in the Jewish community and for demonstration of the validity of a person’s prophetic utterances, but none that I remember for the “qualifications” of a prophet. Is he a she or he, married, family, biblical literacy, or more?

    You also say “was,” but for there to be a was there has to be and end. Where does the end happen and how come that end conflicts with Eph. 4?

    Also another question is, who is “the prophet” and where is the prophecy in the text describing such a person?

    The devil’s (satan, small ‘s’) is in the details.

  153. Bob says:

    For those who care, I’m sure not many, I believe these current “ministries” who teach people how to be a prophet are full of something and it’s not the Holy Spirit.

  154. Bob says:

    Jesus said this about the prophets:

    “…they persecuted the prophets…”
    “Jerusalem, who kills the prophets…”
    “…sons of those who murdered the prophets”

    Ironically except in one (Isaiah and possibly Jeremiah) tradition the biblical history does not indicate the Jewish people killing the prophets.

    But 2 Chron 36 uses the idea of “murdered” a bit different.

    So what is Jesus talking about?

  155. Bob says:

    In the Bible, who was the business man (of the day) given prophetic status?

  156. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob – who is the prophet in your church? Can you go to him for a special God given word?

  157. Bob says:


    Since I haven’t met a “prophet” who met the “test” for their utterances the answer is, none.

    But that doesn’t void the fact your post demonstrates an unresolved conflict with Eph 4.

    My point is there isn’t an “office” nor was there ever one. Prophets, and true prophets at that, just happen at the discretion of God. Additionally I believe myths, mysticism, synchrony, and personal desire fuel much of the “prophetic” desires of many.

    People want to know the future and yet it is quite clear.

  158. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Is it the same for all the others listed in Eph 4?
    Can you identify your pastor? Can you identify your evangelist (in my church call the minister of outreach)?

  159. Bob says:


    It’s nice to read you have identification placards on the wall so you know who the formal positions are at your church. I would bet money that isn’t the point of Eph 4 at all, but you have you own ideas and interpretations.

    One thing I have noticed (and it’s documented in a variety of publications) is this, formal positions aren’t always the real positions. Again I would imagine, based on the way you w one here on PP, you are a bit more powerful at your church than your formal position might designate.

    Of course now you’re trying to engage in an exchange with me to prove what?

  160. Bob says:

    The way you write here on PP

  161. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob – perhaps we don’t disagree. I said back at my #11 – “however I don’t think prophets in the church today are any more real than the Easter Bunny.”

    Maybe you are agreeing with me and I missed it.

    I engaged about Eph 4 because you seemed to say that prophets were not recognizable and I just asked how you know who the pastor is in your church.
    I can identify the pastor, the evangelist – I know the particular people gifted in helps, administration, teaching the whole gamut.

    I cannot identify one prophet, healer or miracle worker in my church – how about you?

  162. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have absolutely no power at my church. I have responsibilities assigned to me yby our constitution and by laws. I serve at the request and vote of the congregation and face term limits.

    I always ask – what power is there to have in a church?

  163. Bob says:


    Where we disagree (at least it seems so) is this, I don’t eliminate the possibility of people being prophets today and it seems you do. I find zero evidence in scripture that God said no more, but what I do find is a whole lot of puffed up false ones in the world.

    No I pay almost zero attention to church prophets today.

    Notice nobody answered how the Jews killed, murdered and persecuted the prophets according to Jesus.

    Yep prophets claim to speak for God today and yet they are illiterate about the very words written down and credited to God.

  164. Bob says:

    On your power, and you intuitively know this, it’s the power to influence decision making, either directly or indirectly.

    I’m sure you noticed you and Alex control a lot of the content here on PP. I would imagine it’s the same in your church circle. I know it’s that way in mine.

  165. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well, I figure if they are unidentifiable and if you can’t believe them – that it is just safer to say God put them to rest.
    Who is the local Apostle – who is the local miracle worker ( as I said one time, I drive past Benny Hinn’s OC office to work and work across the street from TBN — perhaps they are right under my nose. 🙂

  166. Michael says:


    No one controls the content here but me.
    MLD and Alex are frequent commenters from very disparate theological positions.
    You comment frequently as well, from yet another paradigm.
    I appreciate it all and I agree very little with any of the three of you.
    I think the range of ideas is healthy…

  167. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob, I am sure you lack experience in church government. Although I am president, I am 1 vote on a leadership board – they don’t give me 2 votes. Even still. we had a board meeting Tuesday evening and made some decisions – but we still must bring them to the congregation’s assembly this Sunday afternoon, along with each department reporting on their functions and achievements for the past quarter. In the end, the congregation may lack interest, but they are still forced to vote up or down.

    Even if I were the dictator of the church, I see no POWER to be had.

  168. Bob says:


    You may start the conversations and step in to stop the food fights, but you hardly control the content. Well I guess if you mean the fact you can shut it down anytime you want, that is control.

    As far as agreeing, I am far from being classified a Calvanist or even a Reformed, with a capital R, but I found the arguments of such thought engaging. Ironically I am probably an example of when Xenia writes about the problems of independent bible study. I find error, and much conflict in many of the traditions called Christianity she compared to the text and the traditions behind its writing.

    But the subject is prophets and I think most, if not all, who claim to be have not a single dry spit about what they are talking about. However, I am cautious enough not to called a murderer or persecutor of possible true ones.

  169. Bob says:


    “I am sure you lack experience…”

    There you go again spewing junk.

    You know nothing about my church, work, education or corporate experiences. Why do you say or assume such crap.

    Oh and your post either demonstrates an ignorance of group dynamics of you are just playing to the choir and doing your shtick again. I think the latter is probably true.

  170. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob – so you have gained power while serving in church government?
    I still see no power to be gained in church.
    I am sure the church ladies have much more say in what happens than I do.

  171. Josh The Baptist says:

    Prophet’s like Elijah no longer exist. Not needed. All prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.

    Show me different.

  172. Michael says:

    I don’t believe that the office of prophet is in operation today, though I could be wrong.

    I believe very much that the gift of prophecy is alive and well.

  173. Josh The Baptist says:

    Totally agree with Michael.

  174. London says:

    Don’t get sucked in…you can’t win…your words will just get twisted over and over again no matter what you say.
    It’s a game MLD likes to play and has been playing for years with whomever will play along.

  175. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    London, why is it a game? Bob made the accusation that I have assumed more power at my church than my position allows for.

    I am just answering that

  176. Xenia says:

    I don’t believe that the office of prophet is in operation today, though I could be wrong.
    I believe very much that the gift of prophecy is alive and well.<<<

    This is the truth of the matter, IMO.

    All the gifts of the Holy Spirit are "in operation" today, just don't look for them on TV.

  177. Xenia says:

    I think the membrane, to use an odd term, between heaven and earth is a lot more permeable than most people think.

  178. Bob says:

    Yes MLD, you are doing your shtick again. Is it great fun?

    Michael I agree the gift is alive and well, but I state it quite clearly, there is no “office” of a prophet, ever.

    That is a culturally made up term.

    God chose people to be prophets who, like Amos, never held an “office.” The guy was the head of a ranch (in a more modern vernacular) by his own admission. People recognized his words and saved them for us to read and consider even today.

  179. Bob says:

    To go further, Jesus is The Messiah, and yet He is called by many, “the Prophet.”

  180. Xenia says:

    I don’t usually agree with a lot of what MLD says, (and actually, this goes for most of you 🙂 ) but it does force me to examine my positions to see if they hold water.

  181. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “and yet He is called by many, “the Prophet.”

    Yes, the Muslims and they are never right on the Jesus issue.

  182. Xenia says:

    For those of us who believe there are genuine prophets in the Church today, we will hear their messages and will profit from their prophecies.

    Those that don’t believe won’t hear anything.

    Nothing to argue about, really.

  183. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Who remembers that crazy “prophecy” web page we talked about a couple of weeks ago? Josh, you were familiar with them. I can’t remember. Was it Elijah something?

  184. Em says:

    “I don’t usually agree with a lot of what MLD says, (and actually, this goes for most of you 🙂 ) but it does force me to examine my positions to see if they hold water.”

    exactly! ! !

    and for those of us who don’t spend much time thinking theologically, Xenia, MLD and even Alex and the rest who thoughtfully post here nudge us into doing so … both philosophically and factually … at least, it benefits me … this is one of God’s best websites IMHO … Christians who can’t take the conversations here are … ? … strange?

  185. Em says:

    long, looong years ago my children hit me with the question, what is a prophet? what i told them then was O.T. focused, i think … something to the effect that it was a person who kept all his time and his thoughts devoted to God … perhaps that was lame, but it does seem to fit the prophet that Xenia describes… and that permeable membrane… and then comes Alex to remind us that science says there are more than 3 dimensions… but we can only see today with our physical eyes … and that’s pretty much all i can handle

  186. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well before we say we don’t agree on much, I would like to take the counter position 🙂

    I would make a bet that if we laid out 100 common theological topics that we would agree with about 90% with no argument. That other 10% are things folks have argued through the years

  187. Josh The Baptist says:

    Elijah List.

  188. Xenia says:

    MLD, I said I don’t agree with a lot of what you say, that is, the things you post here on the blog.

  189. Josh The Baptist says:

    I don’t agree that we don’t agree on stuff.

  190. Xenia says:

    Years ago I oversaw a discussion forum on our CC’s web site. The pastor didn’t want anything posted that contradicted CC theology, saying there were plenty of places on the internet for folks who wanted to argue but our church’s web site should stick to the truth. I saw his point but what a boring discussion forum!

    Poster !: I just read I Cor. 13 for my morning devotions! I was so blessed!
    Poster 2: Yes, it is such a blessing!
    Poster 3. What a blessing!
    Poster 4. We are so blessed!
    Poster 1. Isn’t God good?
    Poster 2. Yes, He is good!
    Poster 3. He is good all the time!
    Poster 4. Amen.

    Irenic but dull.

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