Psalm 10
“Why, O LORD, do you stand far away? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?”
(Psalms 10:1 ESV)
It has been a hard week already…a hard week in the midst of a long, hard, season.
In the midst of my own difficulties, I also note the ones around me who are suffering more.
There is injustice and unfairness and grief all around us.
“In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor; let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised. For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul, and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the LORD. In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.” His ways prosper at all times; your judgments are on high, out of his sight; as for all his foes, he puffs at them. He says in his heart, “I shall not be moved; throughout all generations I shall not meet adversity.” His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression; under his tongue are mischief and iniquity. He sits in ambush in the villages; in hiding places he murders the innocent. His eyes stealthily watch for the helpless; he lurks in ambush like a lion in his thicket; he lurks that he may seize the poor; he seizes the poor when he draws him into his net. The helpless are crushed, sink down, and fall by his might. He says in his heart, “God has forgotten, he has hidden his face, he will never see it.”” (Psalms 10:2–11 ESV)
The wicked act as if there is no God…or if there is a God, He is oblivious to the evil they do.
We see it, are wounded by it, and wonder where the God we do believe in is.
“Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up your hand; forget not the afflicted. Why does the wicked renounce God and say in his heart, “You will not call to account”?” (Psalms 10:12–13 ESV)
David often felt the same way and God saw fit to have him write his pain filled questions down for our benefit…for the days we would be asking the same questions.
Make no mistake when you read these passages…these aren’t Davids intellectual pondering about theodicy or theology.
These are cries from the gut for justice and hope.
He doesn’t end with questions, he answers them.
“But you do see, for you note mischief and vexation, that you may take it into your hands; to you the helpless commits himself; you have been the helper of the fatherless. Break the arm of the wicked and evildoer; call his wickedness to account till you find none. The LORD is king forever and ever; the nations perish from his land. O LORD, you hear the desire of the afflicted; you will strengthen their heart; you will incline your ear to do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.” (Psalms 10:14–18 ESV)
David affirms the presence and power of God.
“You do see”
“You do hear”
“You do strengthen”
“You will act”
There will be a day when all things are set right, where all accounts will be settled, where the righteous will shine and the wicked get justice.
Sometimes we will see that day, sometimes it lies in the future beyond us…but it will come.
Our hope is not on the here and now, but the now and then.
Our hope is in God and it is a sure hope.
Be encouraged…and make your own application…
Dunno. Doesn’t seem to be any sort of correlation. Rains on the just and unjust…evil prospers, good prospers…evil is nuked, good is nuked…and in reality the vast majority of folks and a vast majority of man’s Institutions are a mix of the two.
…though there is a true Dynamic to Sowing and Reaping Principle and there are some consequences to pay at times (in varying forms)…and sometimes you have to make your own justice.
“There will be a day when all things are set right, where all accounts will be settled, where the righteous will shine and the wicked get justice.
Sometimes we will see that day, sometimes it lies in the future beyond us…but it will come.
Our hope is not on the here and now, but the now and then.
Our hope is in God and it is a sure hope.” AMEN
i am about to enter my 80th year and there are many changes in perspective that seem to come on this end of a life span… especially where time is concerned… 1,000 years are a blink of God’s eye? seems more reasonable, more believable now…
time is an interesting phenomena that i don’t think man from our little dot of a planet can measure accurately… we give it calibration, but God just smiles
as i recently told a grandson, i don’t think time is a ‘line,’ rather it is a tapestry spreading out in all directions from a center… Adam? perhaps – the fallen star, Lucifer? perhaps – dunno – but the completed tapestry will be bound in a hem of justice… IMV
thinking, thinking, thinking… praying
Everyone appeals to David. Everyone thinks they are David.
The reality is we’re all David, we’re all “the devil” and we’re all “Jesus” in a sense.
Some feed their evil side more than the good side…some are largely evil…some are largely good…and many in the masses face difficulties in life…some of their own making (Sowing and Reaping)…some just the harsh realities of life and humanity…some bad luck.
…and some have great luck, some get away with stuff (see some of the “Pastors” that seem to be made of teflon coated in industrial-rubber)…and some don’t.
It’s a mixed bag…and there are very few correlations.
No one gets away with anything.
There will be a day of reckoning…I believe that with all I’ve got.
The day of reckoning already took place in my opinion when Christ paid for the sins of the world. At least in the grand scheme of things.
“No one gets away with anything.
There will be a day of reckoning…I believe that with all I’ve got.”
No, not really, not if you believe in “Grace” and the grace narrative….and the vast majority believe they are the “righteous” and they will get Grace and Mercy…that’s the truth of it.
Most believe they are the persecuted. Most believe they will come out OK at judgment b/c they believe a particular doctrine correctly or they lived a generally good life or they are delusional and don’t have an accurate picture of themselves.
That’s the plaint truth of the reality of human nature and what “is”
Michael. name one of the bad pastors or bad anyone who really thinks they are bad and really believes God will nuke them?
None do.
We are all Universalists in that context. We all think we know God and that the other guy or Sect is wrong…and well believe God will have mercy on us in the next.
…at least that’s the REAL BELIEF expressed in actions and inactions.
Even Calvary Chapel Pastor James Flanders harped on and on and on about “Grace” and shedding “Legalism” etc in the years after he murdered his bigamist mistress.
He certainly believes there is Grace for him in the next
Michael, you as a Calvinist would assert that God forgives Scoundrels…as long as they have “correct doctrine”….
…and that’s the other side of that same Universalist Coin.
You believe there is no bad deed or bad works or bad habits or bad actions that is beyond “Grace”…your Universalism is in the form of “God will have mercy and show grace…as long as your doctrine is correct”
Others view it as “I lived a generally good life! God won’t nuke me!”
Everyone casts the other guy in hell…no one casts themselves in hell…b/c everyone thinks they’ll be OK in the end.
That, my friends, is the adulterated TROOF 🙂
funny thing… i’ve begun to see those who look for Truth outside of the Plan of God – as laid out in The Bible – as the ones who are in denial… the fool who says there is no god as well as the Buddhist chanting away the evil
eye hasn’t seen, ear hasn’t heard, neither has it entered in to man’s heart to see the things hereafter… but God has done everything He can to get us thru the now… which IS, as Alex sees clearly, a tenuous mess
Alex,
My concern is not about what people think, but about what I believe the Bible teaches.
The narrative has grace…but it also includes justice and righteousness.
Without justice, love and grace are emptied of their real meaning.
I believe Christ will return and I believe His judgements will be righteous and true.
I am not, nor will I ever be a universalist.
For those of us who believe these things as the church always has, there is great comfort here.
It is to those seeking that assurance that I write…I’m not interested in debate.
It’s settled in my soul.
Michael, your post sounds nothing like the so-called relevant messages being touted these days, yet it is one of the most relevant things I’ve ever read. Justice in the now and then. I love it!
#12-AMEN and another amen to what the Captain said
Michael, do you believe you will avoid hell and judgment? Why?
Why do you get the Grace and a practicing homosexual does not? Why do you get the grace but a guy like a James Flanders or a Skip Heitzig does not?
Everyone lives like the devil at one time or another.
Chuck Smith died in a Big Lie…an ongoing sin…the same “abomination” to God (according to the bible) as homosexuality…but we assume Chuck got mercy and grace….
Thank you, CK.
Thank you, Em.
Just trying to keep all our heads above water…
Those who never hear the “correct Gospel message”…are going to hell according to most…yet you get grace and mercy b/c you heard what you believe is a “correct message” and you ascribe to your Sect’s version of what is “correct”…and therefore you believe you have avoided Judgment…but others are not so lucky?
“Without justice, love and grace are emptied of their real meaning.” my, oh my those words hold more truth than anything said here today – God keep, Michael
I know these are tough questions for most…and I know I bring them up regularly…but it is honest and truthful and I feel many on here and in “Christianity” are not being honest with themselves or with others…
…and “God” supposedly “hates” liars…and Lies are an “abomination” to him etc etc blah, blah…so why persist in lies?
Alex,
My hope is that through faith in Christ who paid for my sins that I will receive grace and mercy at the judgment seat.
I have no hope on my own, no hope that I could ever be good enough to merit the favor of God.
I do not have a list of the elect…I do have a relationship with the living God and trust in Him alone.
Alex, it sounds as if you think that grace/mercy is opposed to justice/righteousness. God is the God of both.
James Flanders will receive justice. Whether that means he rots in hell, or it comes in the form of mercy, it will still be just.
Alex,
The fate of those who have never heard is a mystery…all I know is that God will always act in righteousness.
I know that I am responsible for what I know and what I have been given…and that is more than I deserve.
I cannot explain all things…I only can live in faith with what I believe.
#17 is nonsense
Alex, no offense, but you’ve never asked a “tough question” here in regards to the Christian faith.
#19 is a false assumption… no need for elaboration, but my late husband earned his/our living using logic on a pretty high level – you can be certain his strong faith wasn’t built on denial of facts of any kind
Alex, nobody is saved because they “heard the correct message.” I’ve never heard anyone say such, and Michael certainly has not said it. Where do you get such a sloppy generalization?
Christianity is not logical.
It is faith.
I believe that God is three persons who are one.
That’s not logical.
I believe God descended from heaven and became a man and lived as one.
That’s not logical.
I believe God allowed Himself to be murdered by His creation…for their benefit.
That’s not logical.
I believe a dead man got up and walked…and because He did, I will too.
That’s not logical.
I believe he’s coming back, the dead shall be raised, righteous judgment will flow, and heaven and earth will become one place.
That’s not logical.
That’s all by faith.
I believe.
Michael, is there anything you can do…molest kids, marry another woman while you’re already married, beat kids, steal money from Jesus, be a doosh, solicit prostitutes etc that will get you “unsaved” if you have “correct doctrine”?
…and the answer is “no” from the Calvinist perspective as long as you have “correct doctrine” and profess belief in a basic set of creeds.
Your construct is built on a belief in a fairly quantifiable (though it gets very nuanced when we dig further down) list of “correct doctrinal beliefs” and creeds. As long as that is somewhat in tact, you can live like the devil and still avoid eternal damnation (but then some buffer that with Bema Seat judgment and you lose some rewards or something, big deal).
Alex,
You have a unhealthy pre-occupation of the sins you can do and still be saved. The bible warns about falling away and its a good idea to stay far from sin and not speculate about the guy down the road.
not logical? … well, not easily grasped as such, but it’s a HARMONIOUS plan beyond man’s ability to construct… and that’s the logic that we can understand … IMNSHO 🙂
The other general side of the Coin is those who base it off of “works” and “correct doctrine”…as long as you are generally good and do some mandatory things and then have a generally sound profession of some basic doctrinal beliefs…then you’re good to go.
This Group, however, would tend to doubt the other guy’s salvation and non-hell status if they saw things like child molestation or homosexuality or murder or adultery etc.
Alex,
You are not saved by doctrine, but by faith.
Doctrine simply informs you of the object and nature of the faith.
God has forgiven all manner of sin for those who truly believe.
That does not mean they are spared any consequence other than damnation.
Andrew said, “You have a unhealthy pre-occupation of the sins you can do and still be saved.”
No, actually I don’t, personally…I am commenting on my observations of the general Belief as expressed in actions and inactions in “christianity” and “the church”
OK, Michael, I have “faith”…am I “saved”?
In my understanding of doctrine, God disciplines those he loves.
The consequences of falling into his discipline are fearful.
I believe one of the signs of election is residency in God’s woodshed.
Those who escape such while willfully sinning should have little confidence in their election.
” if you have “correct doctrine”?” correct doctrine in the head won’t save you
correct doctrine submitted to will either avoid Alex’s list of egregious acts or else lead to recovery/forgiveness – the only unforgivable is the sin of poking God in the eye
“In my understanding of doctrine, God disciplines those he loves.
The consequences of falling into his discipline are fearful.”
Then maybe that is the source of all the hardships you reference in your article?
Maybe all of David’s many woes and many laments and groaning of bad circumstances and ‘enemies’ and all the injustice…was god’s discipline on him.
These issues are always very Circular.
Alex needs to write a book – his concern for deluded Christians might wake some up
You claim god’s discipline on one hand…then blame hardships and trouble on general and random injustices etc.
No one ever accepts their hardship as “god’s discipline”…everyone says it is “the devil attacking!” or random life and injustice that will be righted when you die or something like that.
Alex,
I am not the judge of your soul…
If you believe that Christ is God, came in human form, died for the sake of sinners, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven and will return to judge the quick and the dead…if you truly believe those things and have a living relationship with the risen Christ, then you shall be saved.
That is what I believe the Bible teaches and the Bible is my authority on these matters.
Listen to Bob G. prattle on. It’s always “the devil is attacking me!” and “the enemy is all around me and my cult!” etc.
It’s never “Well, gee, maybe I’m under god’s discipline…”
Same goes for pretty much everyone.
“Christianity is not logical.
It is faith.
I believe that God is three persons who are one.
That’s not logical.
I believe God descended from heaven and became a man and lived as one.
That’s not logical.
I believe God allowed Himself to be murdered by His creation…for their benefit.
That’s not logical.
I believe a dead man got up and walked…and because He did, I will too.
That’s not logical.
I believe he’s coming back, the dead shall be raised, righteous judgment will flow, and heaven and earth will become one place.
That’s not logical.
That’s all by faith.
I believe.”
Amen to that.
Alex,
No doubt, some of my hardships may be consequences of my own sin.
The hope I have is that God’s justice for His children is always rehabilitative, not retributive.
Thus, if I confess and repent of whatever sin is in my life, there is always hope of restoration.
Alex,
All Christians are not “inactive” regarding the sins of others. I know Christians in the northern part of my county who don’t call the police for help, but have airboats and know where the gators feed. Good guys to know…
You take communion I assume.
The bible says literally that if you do so (or some interpret it that way) and you have some ongoing sin in your life…you are calling down judgment on yourself.
Everyone pretty much sins daily…and it’s pretty darn impossible to completely repent and stop sinning altogether…so maybe everyone’s hardships and trouble who claims “Jesus” is the result of all the times they take communion/sacraments b/c they take them “in sin”….b/c we’re all sinners.
My advice: Stop taking communion LOL
Alex,
That is not my understanding of what that passage means at all.
think i’ll go catch the rest of the noon news… see what the devil is up to
Alex,
you seem to desire black and white in a nuanced world. Christianity has a tension between now and then, finished and in process, deeds and belief, sin and forgiveness, grace and justice, indwelt and filled, righteous and unrighteous, etc. We live in a culture that celebrates notoriety & success and many of our so-called Christian leaders take their cues from culture. They are serving a master counter to the Master of their calling, if they’ve been called at all. Wolves wear wool for a reason. You’re going to have to wait for things to be put in order.
Alex,
Let me boil this down for you.
Your argument against Christianity is based on the actions of men.
My belief in Christianity is based on the actions of Christ.
I acknowledge the sins of others and myself…and how we’ve utterly failed so often to represent Him in truth.
He is still the truth.
fil,
#53 is gold.
Thank you.
I have no argument with “Christianity” in the form of a more liberal interpretation of the term.
Fil said, “Alex,
you seem to desire black and white in a nuanced world.”
No, you are mistaking my commentary on the black and white of many Sects who are in the conservative side of the “church” tent.
I don’t think there is much of any black and white….and as far as I know, Universalism is probably correct if God is real and the Jesus narrative is real…and truth be told…that is the true belief of all of the Sects as they really believe they’ll get grace and mercy no matter their sins and no matter their mistakes in “correct doctrine” when push comes to shove.
I listen to the real Sermons of everyone…those are the Sermons expressed in action and inaction and in digging down beneath the veneer of “black and white” as you put it.
“I have ‘faith’ therefore I am saved”
…then come the caveats and the wherefores and the “correct Jesus’s” and the layers upon layers of nuance depending on what Sect you hail from.
It’s just the troof and when push comes to shove you know it’s true…and then it’s “mystery”. It goes there every single time if the discussion is allowed to be had.
As much as I love these discussions, I do have to run, I have a LOT of irons in the fire and many responsibilities to tend to so you’ll get a much deserved break from the cacophony of truth and reason.
Amen, Michael. Love #20 ”
My hope is that through faith in Christ who paid for my sins that I will receive grace and mercy at the judgment seat. I have no hope on my own, no hope that I could ever be good enough to merit the favor of God. I do not have a list of the elect…I do have a relationship with the living God and trust in Him alone.”
and #27, #44, #47 and more. Right on. Calm, strong, powerful, truths.
We walk by faith, not by sight, substance of things hoped for, evidence not seen.
Hallelujah.
Michael — You know the saying, ‘It’s always lonely at the top.”
Alex, you did end every argument with some version of “In your hearts you know I am right.”
The truth of the matter is, in our hearts we know you are wrong.
Cross out “did”
Alex wrote:
“No one ever accepts their hardship as “god’s discipline”…everyone says it is “the devil attacking!” or random life and injustice that will be righted when you die or something like that.”
While some might say that many do not. In the world of logic that makes this statement wrong since “everyone” does not affirm what he has written.
As far as getting a break from truth, where has Alex written truth? I just keep reading a bunch of destruction statements.
When are you going to build something instead of destroying things? The enemy comes to destroy, I believe I read somewhere.
Alex, “we know you are wrong”
You do not speak for me x!
Once again, Alex proves that he does not understand Christianity, he does not understand Jesus Christ and he does not understand the narrative of salvation.
He states “No, not really, not if you believe in “Grace” and the grace narrative….and the vast majority believe they are the “righteous” and they will get Grace and Mercy…that’s the truth of it.”
The whole point of “grace” is that you are guilty of sin against God. If you are the righteous, then you do not need “grace” you deserve praise and reward..
Where did you get the idea that the “righteous” are the one’s who believe in grace?
One other thing – I can show just as many statements by Jesus that match statements of the “mean” old testament God.
Again, Alex can’t even describe Christianity properly before trying to tear it down.
MLD said, “Again, Alex can’t even describe Christianity properly before trying to tear it down.”
Which Sect? Which denomination out of the 9,000 to 30,000?
Give me try. I bet you I can describe their general angle to a t….
Which Lutheran Sect? The anti-gay anti-semitic misogynistic Sect or the Liberal Sect?
X said, “The truth of the matter is, in our hearts we know you are wrong.”
No, you don’t or you could prove it…and you cannot.
We have some facts we can observe, then we have a lot of speculation and even more difference of opinion and nuance between the competing Sects.
You can’t even get very much consensus on here let alone putting a room full of Calvary Chapel guys from different ends of that Tent with a bunch of conservative Lutherans and then Liberal Lutherans, a bunch of Catholics (RCC), a bunch of EO’s (Eastern Orthodox) and then a bunch of Charismatics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assemblies of God, Mennonites, Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Vineyard, Apostolic, and the list goes on and on…and on.
I can confidently tell you that everyone is wrong on many issues…
You know how to describe a Christianity that does not exist – and that’s about it.
So, are you telling me that part of the Christian faith is the doctrine that the righeous seek grace?
Are you denying that Jesus makes condenming statements in the New Testament? Jesus can be brutal in his preaching.
All of your chatter is just a repeat of “Bob Grenier is a Christian therefore Christianity is false.”
….now as to the so-called ‘essentials’….this is a bit more quantifiable…but we still rely on a lot of non-factual non-provable anecdotal evidence that really isn’t evidence.
Show me a real supernatural miracle like walking on water or turning water into wine. You cannot.
Show me your Apostolic Lineage…only RCC and EO claim this…so then all the other Sects disagree that that issue is important.
Show me your ‘perfect doctrine’ and ‘perfect theology’ and I will show you a Hermeneutic, a Guru and a Following that has to disagree with most of the others to form their particular “correct doctrine”…
It is…as they say…what it is.
I think you all have some big stuff right: There is likely “God” in some form. All of this that we see, touch, taste, feel, hear, and perceive with our human senses is not all their is (even theoretical physics agrees with this).
What is tangible to us in this realm/existence is likely not by accident…it is the product of order and intelligence in some capacity we do not understand about the Universe/Multiverse.
We can perceive (in general) good and evil in our Conscience…though only on some very big issues. Many folks disagree on a variety of moral issues…but there are certainly some Universal Biggies like murder, theft, child molestation…stuff like that.
Sowing and Reaping Principle seems to be a general law of our reality.
Humans are a mix of good and evil….and you will be more of what side you feed and Sow to.
Humans are a mix of good and evil….and you will be more of what side you feed and Sow to.
You should be a Lutheran – the same proclaimed “we are 100% saints and 100% sinners” – the only difference from your view is that we cannot change that balance (never to be 80% saint and 20% sinner.)
“You should be a Lutheran”
This kind?
http://www.glaad.org/blog/lutheran-church-install-first-openly-gay-bishop
On to the topic of the article – pain and trouble – tonight I will host a meeting at our church (and again Sat morning the 30th) giving our congregation (those who choose to show up) a line by line explanation of our proposed budget that they will vote on in June.
It’s a zero balance budget which is easier to sell than the negative $100K budget we went with last year. 😉
Hey, I’ll give you LCMS Lutherans this…you’re pretty frugal (ironic since you don’t like Jews) and you are very boring…which is good…you tend not to have some of the issues of other church Sects. Hard to have Pastor-worship and inflated-Pastor-egos in that boring construct…which is a good thing, I’ll give you that.
Michael,
I see and appreciate the heart of what you shared here.
Hang in there.
MLD, are ELCA Lutherans ‘official’ Christians? Are they (and their openly practicing gay bishops) going to heaven?
“This kind?” – why not? With all their problems they are Christians and we need to get you saved.
It would be more affirming that that abusive CC church you attend who will not even stand up for right, will not confront sin with others and is too chicken to give up his tainted affiliation. 🙂
“Are they (and their openly practicing gay bishops) going to heaven?”
You tell me – my view is ONLY sinners go to heaven.
The question isn’t do they remain Christian – but do they remain Lutheran.
“You tell me – my view is ONLY sinners go to heaven.”
And remind me how one goes to hell…you’ve said they reject the free gift and choose hell…but what if they change their mind once they get on the other side and see Jesus?
Is it a limited time offer? Is it like some sort of “act now in the next 30 minutes!” thing?
What if they get up to the gates of hell and go…”Hmm, I changed my mind, I want Jesus now”….you say Jesus has a No Return Policy? No charge-backs?
Seems a bit odd…most have no good basis to make an informed decision…no evidence like Doubting Thomas and the other Disciples got…and the vast majority of humanity today and throughout history never hear a “correct” Gospel message?
MLD, a MAJOR flaw in your doctrinal box is this:
You put all the Power into the hands of the particular soul and say “they reject the free gift! Therefore they choose hell!”
…then you present some weird “prosthetic arms” analogy to get around the Monergism/Synergism issue and Free Will.
Then you take the Power back from the soul and say that there is some sort of time-date stamp expiration…that once your flesh dies off…which isn’t your eternal spirit…that you can’t change your mind and “accept the free gift”
Pretty bizarre and scattered theology you have.
….I listen and remember everything you’ve said over these many years now…and that’s a very cookies-on-the-lowest-shelf summary of your doctrinal box.
Alex -p first off you again show your lack of Bible knowledge and you seemed to have never paid attention to a thing Jesus says. Jesus explain who goes to hell and why and in fact, if you read closely he tells you that they knowingly reject and will not change their minds.
In Noah’s day, I will bet that all cursed God as they drowned and I thing the parable of the rich man and Lazarus will give you a clue to man’s motivation. You can hypothesize all you want about the what ifs – but they do not exist. Jesus said that if you go to hell it will have to be over his dead body – and many choose to step right over his dead body.
The thing with the “prosthetic arms” was 100% monergistic, but I must admit it was not a “cookies-on-the-lowest-shelf ” analogy – you would need to be pretty smart to understand – so, since it went over your head …
Now, Lutherans do believe man has free will – but it always says NO!
““they reject the free gift! Therefore they choose hell!”
A Lutheran does not believe in decision theology – it’s not a decision a person makes. God does the saving. So, there is not offer on the table during life or after life … hence a person cannot change their mind.
The evangelical crowd you grew up with are the one’s that brainwashed you into thinking that God leaves your salvation up to you – that is why you think people should be acting right – to maintain that salvation.
You are the participant in a uniquely American religion — the choose God game.
MLD said, “and many choose to step right over his dead body.”
You believe Jesus is dead?
That’s a new one for you. I’m pretty sure most in your Sect would claim his body is alive.
MLD said, “he thing with the “prosthetic arms” was 100% monergistic”
No, it’s quasi-synergism, just a bit more nuanced and a creation of the Lutheran Sect to dance around that tough issue.
MLD are you saying there is a dead Jesus body in the ground and an alive Jesus body walking around in heaven right now?
…that’s a new one.
You may be funny, but as usual you just use that to avoid the issue.
Back to the monergism if you ever find my telling of that analogy you will note that the only words the person ever speaks is “I can’t…” There is no nuance at all.
“Humans are a mix of good and evil”
I totally disagree with this statement. By God’s design creation is neither good nor evil. Conscious creation has the ability to choose or act on behaviors which either benefit them or hurt them. In some circles this is know as the “sin nature” and in others “the evil inclination.”
The “mix” seems to be simply how much humanity chooses to follow themselves or give glory to God.
Very simplistic and sadly the evil inclination tends to always blame failure and troubles on others, including the devil.
“It wasn’t my fault!”
“I was born this way!”
“It was the woman’s fault!”
“you’ve said they reject the free gift and choose hell…but what if they change their mind once they get on the other side and see Jesus?”
The whole point of hell is that they will not see Jesus.
But you let me know if they let you change your mind 😉
Michael @#5 worth repeating
“No one gets away with anything.
There will be a day of reckoning…I believe that with all I’ve got.” !!!!!
I think humans are a mix of good and evil…and that the devil is a metaphor…the devil or evil resides in all of us as well as the good.
I think this is partly a truth that is imperfectly described in the bible in many different narratives.
It’s kind of supported by Paul the Apostle’s whole “my mind (in synergy with god’s spirit) wants to do good but my flesh does evil and what I don’t want to do” thingy.
first time i remember a thread continuing thru the dinner hour
Michael @54
“My belief in Christianity is based on the actions of Christ.
I acknowledge the sins of others and myself…and how we’ve utterly failed so often to represent Him in truth.
He is still the truth.”
“. Wolves wear wool for a reason.”
~ Filbertz
Jim #48 good to know
Andrew #31, good warning.
Great post Michael. just what I needed to hear today. Keep up the great work here big brother
let him who has ears hear what the Lord has spoken in His Word!!!
Father You can take mischief and vexation into Your Hands? Please do so and do not release it. The helpless commits himself to You, take him unto Yourself as Your own. Be the helper to the fatherless that You promise to be. Call the wickedness of the evildoer into account until he breaks. Strengthen the heart of the afflicted, hear their desires. Bring justice to the fatherless and oppressed so no man can cause terror in them.
“Our hope is in God and it is a sure hope.” ~ Michael
Cap kevin, still praying for you
I have said this before it bears repeating.
Abusers are people who do not stop with normal boundaries. They lack a sense of their impact on others. They do not feel the pain they cause.
They reproduce in kind but not necessarily in essential detail.
Our friend Alex has no off button and I find that compelling evidence for his central narrative. Though I think him to be a good man and only unstoppable in repartee not in the flesh.
Most of his assertions about the faith I find to be unimpressively belligerent … what he calls faith in this thread is only confessional faith it is not the faith that personally unites us with the God of our salvation.
“Our hope is not on the here and now, but the now and then.
Our hope is in God and it is a sure hope.”
Amen
This is only my personal conception and not geared towards anyone in particular of those who post on this blog.
I see no need to put down other’s in order to validate one’s own understanding of truth. In fact, that indicates to me that they do not hold secure of their own belief without the attempt of fishing for approval from others whom they hope agree with them.
If I have a belief I will state it (as I am now). I have no need to receive agreement from anyone and no disagreement from anyone will change my belief.
Regardless, belittling an opposing person’s view in no way confirms my view. My statement only identifies me to Christ and He doesn’t need me to even make a statement. He is totally aware of the real me regardless of what I say.
I have faith that where I am wrong the Holy Spirit will correct me or at least show me the proper way to be and it is my choice to pay attention to truth or not.
It is not as important to me to be correct in the debate with other people regarding where I am right as it is for me to be aware of the truth according to the Holy Spirit’s debate with me of where I am wrong.
The righter I am is when I admit how wrong I am.
Praise the Lord for He alone is Righteous, regardless of if you agree with me or not.
I’m fairly unstoppable in the flesh as well…but I pick my battles a bit better.
I would say that much of what goes on in these kinds of Philosophical discussions is much less “abuse” and much more typical Group Dynamics. There is always going to be opposition and strong personalities. That isn’t “abuse”…it’s just life.
Real Abuse is when you have someone in a position of Power who abuses that power…or when you have someone more powerful like a 200lb. man who beats up a 110 lb. woman…or a grown man beating a child with paddles and belts and hands etc…or Pastor conning a vulnerable woman into being his bigamist mistress and then murdering her…or a Pastor having sex with a young teen girl on Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa’s campus and then Chuck Smith initially trying to make it go away by sending her to the CC Castle in Austria…or a Pastor like Skip Heitzig working the system to grab money and power at the expense of others when things didn’t go his way in SoCal.
^^^ That’s “abuse”…not arguing persistently on a blog for a particular position.
I think we need to define terms more carefully or it becomes intellectually dishonest and then is an actual abuse to real Abuse Victims.
…it cheapens the term.
It’s like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson calling everyone a racist…at some point you lesson the meaning of the term and you actually abuse real Abuse Victims by cheapening the meaning of the word.
We are all equals here in terms of power….except Michael (as he controls the blog).
Free Speech is not “abuse”…it isn’t “abuse” when Geller draws cartoons of Mohammad, it isn’t “abuse” when folks argue back and forth on political threads or on religious/philosophical threads etc…unless someone crosses the line into making real physical threats of violence or inciting riots like we saw with Ferguson, Baltimore and the cop killings etc.
Dread, if what you are claiming is truly “abuse”…then you are abusing Homosexuals every time you preach homosexuality as “sin” and “wrong”….so careful which sword you cut with…as that sword cuts both ways…and will be used against you…
Battle:
noun
1.
a hostile encounter or engagement between opposing military forces:
the battle of Waterloo.
2.
participation in such hostile encounters or engagements:
wounds received in battle.
3.
a fight between two persons or animals:
ordering a trial by battle to settle the dispute.
4.
any conflict or struggle:
a battle for control of the Senate.
5.
Archaic. a battalion.
verb (used without object), battled, battling.
6.
to engage in battle:
ready to battle with the enemy.
7.
to work very hard or struggle; strive:
to battle for freedom.
verb (used with object), battled, battling.
8.
to fight (a person, army, cause, etc.):
We battled strong winds and heavy rains in our small boat.
9.
to force or accomplish by fighting, struggling, etc.:
He battled his way to the top of his profession.
Idioms
10.
give / do battle, to enter into conflict; fight:
He was ready to do battle for his beliefs.
Dictionary.com
Alex:
“but I pick my battles better.”
I think I get it now, you (Alex) see yourself as a soldier or one who goes to battle. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Alex, I hardly agree with the totality of either Xenia’s or MLD’s chosen denominations, doctrines or theology and yet I find my self enriched by Xenia and repelled by MLD. Why is that? I think it’s because Xenia always adds to the discussion and it seems like there’s a spark there and I think many might call it a love for God and not just her church.
The Guitar guy is another poster I find compelling and yet I highly disagree with many of his positions on church and doctrine. I think it’s because he writes like he actually cares about those in his circle of community.
I found it a bit sad when someone posted that this Reuben fellow had gotten so offended by those around him that he had “left the faith.”
So what is real abuse? Maybe BD isn’t so far off at all.
Yea, but what if when a cc king stands before Jesus and the Author of the Church begins to meet out His review of the man’s works, the cc king reminds Jesus of the Moses Model?!
scary stuff!!!
Before you think I’m only being satirical, when a cc king positions himself high and lifted up above all us peons, to whom no one can speak, isn’t that what he’s already doing to Jesus?
I know they claim after 1900 years of church history (consequently when all doctrine was already worked through), THEN they figured out how the church should REALLY work, but seriously, why do cc kings (the ones that act like it) seriously believe in a day when God will settle all accounts when in some cases it will be THEIR mess God is “settling.”
Thoughts?
Alex, I wish you would remember that WE (this community blog) are not your enemy. Seriously, many of us here pray for you, hope the best for you, and are cheering you on in your fight for justice.
I can’t understand why it seems (appears) to be your passion to argue with us….. to stir up strife. Sure, we all don’t agree on everything doctrinally. Heck, I don’t understand it all and certainly cannot answer many of your questions, however, I KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what Christ has done for me. I KNOW He lives and through Him I will live. A lot of junk is done in the name of God, but please don’t turn your back on Him and those who are wanting the best for you, because of your questions.
Or, are you only asking the questions because you want to prove you are smarter than some of us? I honestly don’t care. But I do care about you, I do care about this blog and the community here, I do care about Michael the impact all the strife has upon him.
So there is my 2 cents. I care, Alex…..I care…I’m praying.
Paul Lytton is correct when speaking on abuse that takes place when presenting one’s opinion or disagreeing with another person’s opinion. It is not necessary to draw blood or to incite a riot to be deemed abuse. For those that riddled their statements with personal attacks upon a person it is a type of mental or psychological abuse. This blog site used to be quite given to such tactics, but not so much as before.
When we justify or join in behaving in such a way it only reflects the level of civility we lack and in this it also desensitize us to realized just how little we understand or even care about people who as Alex has provided as examples also were initially abused in the same matter that Paul Lytton set forth in his #112.
Abuse is abuse, whether it had evolved into the horrendous examples given by Alex, or more overtly done on a blog site or other venue of communication. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the true art of argument and debate. This type of abuse has only to do with distracting, derailing, demeaning, bullying, and taking a potshot at another to vent or to use as an occasion to vent one’s particular hidden agenda, for instance: misogynistic, narcissistic, controlling, hateful, and trolling urges.
This is not speaking of the person who had been abused by such demeaning remarks, then responds by addressing this with the person who so flippantly, or glibly let loose on them.
We are to be self controlled in all that we think, do, and say. Not other controlling—-to somehow winning an argument b discrediting, silencing, or worse, going for the jugular to make one feel better about themselves for having done so.
Stay on point—-not only will less harm be done, far more will be accomplished while honoring the Lord at the same time. Ignore those who insists on doing otherwise, after addressing the abusive remark without evidence of the person’s willingness to desist. For those whose anger provokes them into returning fire with fire—step away before falling into the same sin as your brother or sister spewed out onto you.
In this, I think far less abuse would be exacted and perpetrated while also recognizing just how what we see as being far more abusive is nothing less than what was planted and sown in its earlier stages, but nevertheless, as abusive as those outcomes of what could have been addressed long before by those who observed, witnessed, enabled, or passively participated in or stood by as it progressed into that which could have been addressed much earlier, except thinking abuse is so much less than what it is at its more primitive or earliest stages.
Nonnie’s 118 Amen!
Nonnie, you guys are not my enemy, nor am I yours…I argue with everyone about issues be it political or philosophical. Many people do.
We need to be careful in defining terms and being intellectually honest.
If disagreeing with a particular position strongly is “abuse”…then the Gay Agenda is going to shut you guys down….
Careful what you wish for…if you demonstrate that holding a contrary position, even vigorously, is “abuse” when it comes to your particular Philosophical belief system and position…then the Gay Agenda and others who gain power will do the same to you….
The Sword cuts both ways…
Paul Lytton is correct when speaking on abuse that takes place when presenting one’s opinion or disagreeing with another person’s opinion. It is not necessary to draw blood or to incite a riot to be deemed abuse. For those that riddled their statements with personal attacks upon a person it is a type of mental or psychological abuse. This blog site used to be quite given to such tactics, but not so much as before.
When we justify or join in behaving in such a way it only reflects the level of civility we lack and in this it also desensitize us to realized just how little we understand or even care about people who as Alex has provided as examples also were initially abused in the same matter that Paul Lytton set forth in his #112.
Abuse is abuse, whether, or not, the abuse evolved into the horrendous examples given by Alex, or more overtly done on a blog site or other venue of communication. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the true art of argument and debate. This type of abuse has only to do with distracting, derailing, demeaning, bullying, and taking a potshot at another to vent or to use as an occasion to vent one’s particular hidden agenda, for instance: misogynistic, narcissistic, controlling, hateful, and trolling urges.
This is not speaking of the person who had been abused by such demeaning remarks, then responds by addressing this with the person who so flippantly, or glibly let loose on them. This also does not include being more firm or quite stern and deliberate in holding the abuser to an account, as Alex is prone to do at times.
We are to be self controlled in all that we think, do, and say. Not other controlling—-to somehow winning an argument b discrediting, silencing, or worse, going for the jugular to make one feel better about themselves for having done so.
Stay on point—-not only will less harm be done, far more will be accomplished while honoring the Lord at the same time. Ignore those who insists on doing otherwise, after addressing the abusive remark without evidence of the person’s willingness to desist. For those whose anger provokes them into returning fire with fire—step away before falling into the same sin as your brother or sister spewed out onto you.
In this, I think far less abuse would be exacted and perpetrated while also recognizing just how what we see as being far more abusive is nothing less than what was planted and sown in its earlier stages, but nevertheless, as abusive as those outcomes of what could have been addressed long before by those who observed, witnessed, enabled, or passively participated in or stood by as it progressed into that which could have been addressed much earlier, except thinking abuse is so much less than what it is at its more primitive or earliest stages.
…and I guess that’s your True Belief as demonstrated on this blog.
Your belief is that it is OK for the majority (or a minority that controls the majority in Power) to label as “abuse” a contrary position and then to call for action against that speech to censor it.
OK, enjoy what you are Sowing…and it will come back to bite you (the church in general).
Alex, sometimes your arguing (and I can understand that you enjoy it) leads to ruining a beautiful thread. I think that is what upsets/concerns some of us. Michael has this blog and he prays over and write what is on his heart, but then people “arguing” over minutiae, can kill a thread. I find it sad.
Maybe on Open Blogging you could go to town with arguing and keep some of these sacred threads a place we can be edified.
Maybe others disagree and I am totally off base. I’m open to that.
I’ll close with, I care Alex and I am praying.
correction: ” initially abused in the same manner that Paul Lytton set forth in his #112 “
Sorry for the duplicate posting—still trying to work out the interrupts via HotSpot.
Alex,
The majority of people who read this blog are people who’ve a deep faith in traditional Christianity.
As the blog owner I share that faith.
As I’ve said to you before the theological issues you bring up, most of us have settled in our own souls whether we make an adequate defense of them in your opinion or not.
Thus, after a while , your comments become as welcome as a gun control advocate would be on the NRA web site.
No one is going to change their minds, everyone will get defensive or hostile and there is no benefit to anyone.
I’ve been preoccupied and haven’t said much, but this was not the thread to argue on.
This thread was to encourage people of like minded faith.
It’s not a free speech issue, it’s a respect issue…my faith isn’t up for debate…some theological minutia may change but I’m dying with what I’ve got.
Most here are the same…and you should be able to respect that even if you can’t embrace it.
There is much support here for you personally and for your situation…not much for endless debate.
London, Dusty, Nonnie..thank you for the kind words.
“Real Abuse is when you have someone in a position of Power who abuses that power…or when you have someone more powerful like a 200lb. man who beats up a 110 lb. woman…….. a …working the system to grab money and power at the expense of others when things didn’t go his way…”
FWIW and IMO … Alex, this is what you’re good at confronting – in debating the Faith, you’re not so good even tho you consider yourself educated in the Faith and above average in intellect … granny’s advice, is concentrate more on job 1
that said, the exercise we all get responding to your declarations IS good for the rest who come here 🙂
Alex:
“…then the Gay Agenda is going to shut you guys down….”
What you are implying (or maybe just saying directly) is an attack to stop behaviors has to be strong and violent. Whether it be verbal, legal or even physical what you state is there is no room for civility and such, just go to guns.
But what is the intended outcome really isn’t destroying the attacker at all? Winning over the hearts and minds is pretty hard when they’ve been destroyed.
So what you are saying is this, “destroy those gays and transgenders because they intend to destroy you.” Could it be said your destruction is really an attempt to destroy the hearts and minds of those who disagree with your “intellectual honesty?” If that is the case maybe those who post on this blog ought to mount an attack on you rather than building defensive positions.
Just saying, the sword truly has two edges and often gets very heavy!
but what if the intended…
Here’s Alex’s main point that gets lost in all the postings.
Too often our actions belie our stated beliefs, especially among our leadership.
Our actions make our confessions a lie.
That we have to acknowledge and wrestle with.
Nonnie’s #125 … absolutely correct … amen
Michael
That point should be obvious, but in all his noise the real intention overcomes the “main point.”
His repeated statements of superiority and intellect just scream another main point in all of it.
Oh well, thank you for trying to bring some clarity to the fracas.
Michael’s #133 —– Concisely.
Really appreciated the article for this thread, by the way.
Bob,
Those things don’t help his case.
I still say that most of us cannot understand the depths of pain that come with abuse that will not be confronted by the abusers or their followers.
It becomes abuse sanctioned by the institution, which in this case is the church.
That makes the institution the enemy…and creates what we see here.
I know scores more who feel the same way…
Thank you, Linda.
““Real Abuse is when you have someone in a position of Power who abuses that power”
Actually, it is people who desire to control others by hook or crook for the sake of having power and control who are abusive. One needs not be in a position of Power, to accomplish this. One only needs to be abusive and then enabled by others to be successful in acquiring Power to then gain a position of control over others. Once in the position of Power (or authority), the abuser then becomes even more deviant while living a duplicitous lifestyle that is insulated by flying monkeys and a long line of fatalities left behind. Beware of the ax handle and the lump in the rug—sooner, unfortunately, most likely, much later, they are exposed. The cost is heavy though. It is the abused who pay the consequences of abuse, not the abuser. At least in this lifetime, that is.
perhaps what Alex wants to see is something that he doesn’t even know exists… the real indwelling Christ is not a facade – a form of ‘good manners’ – while i’m all for sensible Christians having civilized behavior and law abiding, we are a mixed bag, some naturally nice, some well brought up, some of us are good at company manners, but snarky behind closed doors… etc
what real faith in Christ Jesus produces is a spiritual focus and trust (a Faith/Rest) – even tho quoted and distorted often, as Paul said, He must increase and we (the old egotistical sinner) must decrease…
many of the comments that i’ve read on this thread are describing the grace that growing in Christ produces … i’ll stop before i write another book that nobody reads 😆
Alex’s position is 100% hypocritical. He rages on about CC, the system, the fact even the “good guys” don’t confront abuse and wrong actions nor will they change affilliation — and yet he still attends CC and speaks well of (as he would call them) his franchise holder – probably even supplies them with funds.
This is no different than the Walmart protester who thinks the retailer is the biggest plague on the planet, but still shops there for the low prices.
Alex, before you concern your self with others, perhaps you need to look at your actions – because I cannot hear your words.
hey, Michael has just put up a post that is really fascinating… aren’t we tired of examining Alex? i think i am going to give him a title: Sir Alex the Diverter … now i’m gone 😯
Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to not threaten people with eternal torment 8n a place called hell if we actually have no evidence whatsoever that such a place exists exempt by faith?
-mike
mike,
Then you want to stop promising people heaven because we have about the same evidence for it…
ahhh, Mike, wouldn’t it be more compassionate to warn people – if such a possibility does exist? it would make a really nasty surprise…
that said, for us humans to assign specific people to it is quite presumptuous – and dangerous
Good retort. Michael.
Maybe I will
“Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to not threaten people with eternal torment 8n a place called hell if we actually have no evidence whatsoever that such a place exists exempt by faith?
-mike”
“mike,
Then you want to stop promising people heaven because we have about the same evidence for it…”
How about we simply promise people Jesus and let Jesus sort out the rest?
Much better answer G man
thx
Alex,
I see how you made the connection but I DID not actually accuse you of abuse. I agree that blogging is hardly abuse … it is easy to opt out of and for people to find a safe haven.
I stand by my comment about boundaries and about your temperament being an evidence in FAVOR of your argument. I actually consider you to be quite a testament to grace if it is actually true that you are safe.
But I constantly encourage you to check yourself and see if the dominating personality is costing you in personal relationships.
I have great respect for you while at the same time wincing often at your expressions … Do not take my assessments as hostile or accusatory they are not meant that way. They are meant as a appeal to consider your path.