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45 Responses

  1. Al says:

    I saw that story about that little girl, it brought me to tears as well. Then it made me very angry.

    God allows all this for some reason, doesn’t bring justice immediately oftentimes, still loves you and me and others despite our own sins and we all want grace and mercy. It’s a very complex dynamic that is not logical, but it “is”.

  2. Michael says:

    Some days…it’s more than I can handle.
    Like today…

  3. As a parent of two adopted kids (now adults) I commuicated the security of their adoption consistently. Because fir adoptees, the doubts always haunt them.

  4. Jean says:

    The story is very difficult to process. How human beings could not only murder an innocent child, but one they new and one of whom brought the child into the world. It appears as though it was gratuitous and I haven’t heard of any remorse whatsoever. Are these adults human beings? Do they have a soul?

  5. Josh the Baptist says:

    We have a 3 year old girl who was murdered this week by her mother’s boyfriend. Beyond awful.

  6. Al says:

    All those evil murderers who also had sex with that little girl have to do is pray a prayer and ask Jesus into their heart and they avoid Judgment, correct? And then “Abide in the vine” and profess an agreement with an evangelical narrative and then “try” not to sin anymore and they are then spared from hell, correct?

  7. Josh the Baptist says:

    Technically, they don’t have to do anything to be saved.

    Jesus’ death and resurrection even payed for rape and murder.

  8. Michael says:

    The short answer is “yes”…if the conversion is genuine.
    That’s how significant the death of Christ was.

    When it happened here it was two little girls…and if imaginable,even more horrific.
    Upon the capture of the perp we surrounded the courthouse and demanded that we be able to bring him the justice he deserved.
    He was sentenced to death by the court…but the state repealed the death penalty.

    After a couple of years came the story of his “conversion”.
    Women would go up and take him gifts and help him study the Bible.

    I damned the whole lot of them.

    I know the proper doctrines,but my soul still cries for justice.
    I am probably wrong and in sin, but content to enter the kingdom with this error on my record.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – which is harder to believe – Josh’s statement or that I agree with him?

  10. Al says:

    Just wanted to remind everyone of the extreme nature of the Gospel the underpins all these issues.

  11. Al says:

    I agree Michael. It makes me very angry and angsty, this whole “justice” thing and the seeming injustice that happens every second and that evil men get away with so much, yet there is the Gospel message that then says “doesn’t matter” but then in another breath Christianity says it does matter? But then it doesn’t really matter. But then it does matter, you have to be “transformed” or something? But then you depose a guy like a former drug user and then go, “Um, you’re still an addict, nothing really changed, you just got a piece of paper that says all those same chemicals are legal to take now”

    I don’t understand it, how the whole “Transformation Gospel” works as sold by evangelicalism.

  12. Al says:

    Can you put the “prosthetic arms” on that “God gives you” as MLD says is Lutheranism, and then grab hold of the means of Grace through the Gospel….and then sin like the devil?

    Where is the line after that? One sin? Two sins? Three sins? At what number is that “salvation” rendered “Well it wasn’t real, you didn’t really believe right or accept the gift right or you’d be sinning less”

    Is it a certain type of sin? Like, you can be a pastor and lie like it’s your native tongue, but as long as you don’t have gay sex you’re still “saved”?

    Very bizarre Belief Systems.

  13. When we were in process of adopting our son, the social worker encouraged us to foster him so as to get $. We were pretty poor then, so it was tempting, but with it came a lack of control. We wanted the security of a full legal adoption, so we spent a lot of $ to secure him.

  14. Al says:

    I love God just fine, love Jesus and his teachings and example just fine. The explanations of so many things, as well as the examples…make no sense to a Critical Thinker and logical mind.

    …and that is partly where the angst comes from.

    Oh well, good day, I’ll try to tune it all out and not think about it and just live and be and try to love my neighbor and try to love “God” and hope for the best.

  15. All our sin is to a certain degree scandalous. Which makes the Gospel appear to be scandalous.

  16. Laura Scott says:

    Thank you, Michael. It’s too horrible to begin to comprehend at the local level and impossible to dismiss.

    And we shouldn’t.

    God won’t, even if we think He has.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Al, how many times have you sin since the time of your salvation – if you sin daily is that ‘sinning like the devil’?

  18. Al says:

    MLD, yup. I would say so. Partly why I don’t buy into the Calvary Chapel false gospel of “Transformation!” …and their own Pastors prove that false gospel of “Transformation” in spades.

  19. Al says:

    …either that or Chuck Smith is roasting in hell right now. The dude was an epic liar on so many many things and “God HATES liars” they are an “ABOMINATION! to him” or so the bible Calvary Chapel teaches “simply” says…

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well, the point is that even people who do the worst of sins are covered by the work of Jesus. Again, sin is no longer the issue for anyone.

    Now, whether these people who do these terrible acts believe that or not is a different story – perhaps at that point they no longer have the capacity to believe the good news even when it is staring them in the face. Then they roast in hell. 🙂

  21. Anne says:

    Some kicks to the gut are beyond the reach of platitudes, doctrines or dogmas. Most days for years now, I find that weeping with those who weep, rejoicing with those who rejoice, sitting through the pain of what I cannot change, and as strength allows rising up to help change what might still be changed the best I can do. No matter where they as humans fall on the spectrum of faith, politics, race etc. I’m drawn to those who tend to get the shorter end of the stick and those that care for them. Like Michael and his beloved cats. That’s the only application I have left for now.

    Doors to heaven left wide open but all confidence that there is a God who sees and loves the little children of the world pretty tattered over time. It is resting place for me after so long a time of seeking, asking, knocking. Never had confidence in what were the proper doctrines. Lost confidence that any so called spiritual experiences were anything more than emotional pyshological varieties of religious experience common throughout Faith’s worldwide. It is a tenuous peace of acceptance that life is prone to suffering and the best we can do is help one another through it without increasing one another’s burdens.

  22. Paige says:

    I’m sorry Michael….. Cats are such a great distraction from the horrible realities of this life. Even with a bunch of too many cats, it’s sometimes not enough to shield me from the pain of the prayer groups I subscribe to….

    As much as I say that I trust (and ‘love’) God….. I will admit to being ‘mad’ with Him for things that are allowed on this fallen planet….. I confess. Some times I don’t ‘like’ God.
    “Lord, where else will we go? Only You have the words of eternal life”….

  23. Em ... again says:

    man’s depravity can go far beyond the natural – how many children does Satan inflict his unspeakable hatred of our race upon?
    these are acts intended by him to make people doubt or hate God – i pray, rather, that people see the threat looming over the race and choose Christ … Scripture says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (i think i would) and here’s why (IMHO) Rev 6:9-17 …

  24. covered says:

    Alex, you have mail.

  25. London says:

    Thank you.
    This happened about a mile from where I live.
    It is horrific and has basically consumed my heart for the last two days.

  26. Michael says:

    I saw the child’s picture last night and found everything else insignificant afterwards.
    May God bring you and the others living there some measure of peace.

  27. London says:

    Just came back from a meeting of an alliance of non-profits we belong to.
    Heard details I wish j hadn’t.
    Pure evil

  28. Owen says:

    I find I can’t hear or read these stories, they just hit far too close to home for me…. it tears me apart.

    I believe God does offer forgiveness , all the way from the “slightest sin” to utterly evil acts. I believe that, on His scale, there is no difference.

    But on our human level, there is a huge difference.

    I believe that is is possible for the perpetrators of such things to receive forgiveness from God (it’s already there, already finished.) I don’t know about what sort of transformation may or may not be possible.

    But on a human level, there will always be the necessary punishments. And they often don’t seem to be enough, either.

    You said “all I have is cat stories…..and the Gospel.”

    You have so much more than just cat stories – you have hope. You express it and share it here (even in your cat stories.)
    Keep doing that. It won’t change everything. But God’s word never returns to Him empty, either.

  29. London says:

    Way too early for people to be talking about forgiveness around here. People are still trying to wrap their heads around what happened.

  30. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    London, no one is speaking of forgiving these people – we speak on these issues in the theoretical – as in, people who do such acts.

    It is something what people can do. I am thinking first of the 12 yr old who blew himself up as a suicide bomber at the Turkish wedding – he is abused, his childhood and life taken from him.

    I just saw on a web site the children being used by ISIS to execute the Kurdish prisoners. Even though I gave up cable TV and have stopped watching the news, you still can’t get away from it..

  31. CostcoCal says:

    “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”

    How can this be? How could Satan have such vile access to a ten year old girl? Why, Lord? Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus. We need you desperately. Each one of us does. I just do not understand.

  32. London says:

    Please do not speak to me about this.
    I wasn’t speaking to you.

  33. Anne says:

    Oh, how I wish the knowledge of such horror did not exist. Just when I think my heart cannot break anymore…. How I wish I had an unshakable faith that all things meant all things. How I wish there were an answer to the pain this child suffered! To even imagine it could be part of some plan for the glory of God ala Job terrifies me. I pray in spite of my apostasy for her and those innocents past and present who through no fault of their own experience such depths of evil. Where oh where is the God who sees? But if we hide our eyes, shield our hearts can only prayer protect? Heal? I don’t know. I’m undone with grief. Oh , London how I wish I had not learned the details. I thought I had witnessed the worst of the worst. I wish I had been wrong.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Don’t be trying to sweet talk me

  35. CostcoCal says:

    My mom died when I was five. My sister when I was a teenager. I have been bowled over by Crohn’s . I had a brain operation some months ago, I was an hour away from dying. Just a week ago, my intestines blew out of my stomach. Yet, the Lord spoke to me. He told me that I would be restored, though the doctors said it was impossible. I was restored last week.

    All that to say; even when life is impossible to understand or fully explain, the Lord will not let us go.

    He is holding that dear child right now.

  36. Jean says:


    I’m floored. God bless you brother.

  37. JTK says:

    She was murdered walking distance from my house. And I have a daughter of similar age.

  38. JonnyB says:

    First you had me rolling on the ground laughing about a cat’s long-chain hydrocarbon emissions.

    Then suddenly with out warning you put the breaks on.

    Instantly I saw this in my mind as the smoke from the breaks cleared:

    Talk about both ends of the spectrum!

  39. London says:

    We must be neighbors.
    I drove past there twice today on my way to RR.

    I wish you had not learned the details either.
    Try to get other stuff in your head.

  40. Michael says:

    Thank you all for the kind words about the article and your thoughts on the other matter at hand.

    I do not believe there is a theodicy that can explain these things…we simply weep with those who weep, knowing some will weep for the rest of their lives.

  41. Owen says:


    Not sure if you were speaking of me in your #32 (and I apologize in advance if you were not…)

    I am sorry if my comments sounded like forgiveness should be handed out. I was speaking only of God’s ability, not ours. I have a couple of family members that I have yet to fully forgive for their evil deeds against my loved ones. Please know, I am aware of how impossible it is. And havng lost two children myself, I would not even attempt to minimize anyone else’s anguish.

  42. Owen says:

    Sorry, I was mistaken in my above post. I was referring to #29.

  43. CostcoCal says:

    Jean… I’m floored, too. But like you, I shall rise.

  44. Erunner says:

    A friend at church avoids the news like the plague. I didn’t understand until a week ago. She decided to watch a story on the Middle East and they ended up showing the body of a child victim of the violence there. She broke down sobbing asking out loud saying how could someone do that to a child? I had never seen that kind of grief over a news story.

    I couldn’t wrap my mind around the intensity of her pain although I seemed to understand it. A group of us prayed over her as a woman in the church held her in her arms while praying.

    Knowing what I do about what happened in NM I can’t begin to imagine how this has impacted and changed lives forever.

    I’m thankful for those who will at some point be a source of comfort and a sounding board for those impacted. Some things just plain stink.

  45. Reuben says:

    After my father left the church, and left the faith, we never “really” talked. He was walking away right as I was running to. On one of the rare occasions we confronted each other on my motives to preach, and his motives to save me from it, he told me that you can’t change the stripes on a tiger’s back. It was a silly thing to hear at the time.

    The concept of salvation is truly maddening to me. It “does not require anything” but total allegiance. You are expected to change. Faith without works is dead, however, we are saved by faith alone.

    I’m no mathematician…

    After my father died, I thought an awful lot about the few things he said to me, stripes being one of them. The most evil people I have ever known are saved by faith alone. So the faith may or may not be capable of anything pragmatic. There is indeed no value to it unless it produces works, as James said. He spoke of people with tongues of fire, who destroy with their words, yet even that is reportedly overcome by the faith, for the accuser and the accused, and again, I am no mathematician.

    The fruits of the spirit… still a concept that is not exclusive to the faith, but really, only counted as valid unless done in the faith.

    “Created sick, commanded to be well.” The fall of humanity creates an inescapable scenario for those in the faith. They have to have Jesus, but like Paul said, there remains the war between the flesh and the spirit. The constant struggle between the two keeps us looking for that “faith alone” salvation, but even that is a work…


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