“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”
(Romans 13:1–7 ESV)
While much of the Christian community celebrates the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, a significant number of people have adopted this slogan as well.
“He’s not my President”.
While I mostly agree with their sentiments regarding the new President, I also have to remind myself that biblically, he is my President.
Because his authority has been instituted by God I now owe respect and honor to the ruler God appointed.
I also owe the President prayer…for the sake of his soul and for the sake of the Gospel.
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
(1 Timothy 2:1–4 ESV)
On a larger scale, because I am part of something bigger than myself, I also must acknowledge that he is now our President.
While I swiftly run out of negative adjectives to describe my feelings about the new administration, the use of them cannot reflect my feelings toward those who support it.
In truth, the use of hostile verbiage simply creates more division, more anger, and less hope among the family of God and my fellow citizens.
We need to soberly address issues, not personalities.
We must acknowledge our common faith and Lord as the family of God.
Biblically, I must seek every peaceful, respectful, way to engage with anything I disagree with that this new administration does.
I must also acknowledge that there may be a day when the policies and actions of this administration conflict with my faith at the deepest levels and may require me to engage in civil disobedience…and if I do so, I must expect the state to “wield the sword” against me.
Finally, I must remember this singular truth…I am one of God’s people in exile.
This is just a temporary stop for me…our kingdom was inaugurated 2000 years ago.
““Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon:Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce.Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease.But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.”
(Jeremiah 29:4–7 ESV)
Let us all prayerfully seek the welfare of the places we dwell and honor God by obedience to His precepts.
Make your own application…
Render to Little Caesar’s…
Amen Michael. Thank for articulating the thoughts of some of us. I want to say “many”, but we’re probably a minority in the Christian community.
Thank you…as you know,this isn’t easy for me either.
We have to keep the Gospel front and center…and your work here has helped us do that and hopefully, you will continue to do so as we navigate these waters.
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” amen, Paul, amen
pray, too, for discernment – there seem to be two outspoken camps in the U.S. today – i contend that neither side is wrong… we do need tender hearts of compassion and brotherhood and we do need smart, strong minded executive types to go toe to toe with evil…
i think both sides can behave honorably – pray that they do
I am literally to distressed to come up with something clever, so I’ll rely on someone else to articulate my feelings.
“Christianity stands or falls with its revolutionary protest against violence, arbitrariness, and pride of power, and with its plea for the weak. Christians are doing too little to make these points clear … Christendom adjusts itself far too easily to the worship of power. Christians should give more offense, shock the world far more, than they are doing now.”
What a great quote!
I believe God has raised up men like you for a time such as this…I greatly look forward to your words as we go through this time.
Well said and amen!
Amen. That scriptures has applied to every political office and administration all along. And that is our obligation as believers. We shall also weep with those who weep, and rejoice with those who rejoice.
And this: Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.
And Daniel 2:21 “It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.
Our hope is and has always been in the Lord and His Kingdom.
Amen John 20:29 I think both sides can behave honorably. Yes, we can.
Thank you, Michael… Proud and humbled to stand with you…
Ok, this guy’s the president.
I am part of the Resistance.
I think the church should always be part of the resistance.
We just have to do it right…
This is silly. So who here back in Jan ’09 announced that they were part of the resistance as Obama was inaugurated?
As an older woman living in an extremely diverse town it means that I will redouble my efforts to treat everyone with the respect due to people created in the image of God. This will be my little corner of the Resistance.
You never disappoint, MD. You said exactly what I expected you to say.
I think what you’ve often taught us about being “local” applies here.
Part of our “resistance” is to be as Christ like as we can be in our closest relationships while serving those who we fear will be most affected by this administration in our own circles locally.
Xenia – because I am consistent – I just take the comments as hypocritical – The church should always be the resistance … except if it’s ‘our guy’.
Xenia, was that an EO priest I saw at the inauguration this morning? Looked like he was holding an anti-abortion sign if I saw correctly.
Then MLD, just call me….
…. Xenia the Hypocrite.
Scooter, I did not watch the inauguration. The EO are pro-life, though, and often participate in anti abortion marches.
A person in the office of POTUS is a public servant, elected to serve all US citizens.
It is a temp job that ends in 4 years.
The person is accountable to us and we are going to resist any erosion of our rights and the rights of our neighbors.
The office holder is unqualified to serve, and less than a majority of the US electorate voted to place the person in the office.
The office holder is appointing unqualified persons to offices of oversight. What could go wrong? We will resist when it does.
We are organizing, we are marching, we are resisting.
It’s our job to lead ourselves, as individuals, to set the example, not look to someone to lead us.
Guitar man, amen.
Off thread, I shared an editorial written in the wake of the Birmingham Church bombing. I think, unless I’m breaking a rule, it’s worth sharing here. Our silence and our compliance in the face of insulting remarks, injustice and violence has consequences. It’s not about an individual. It is about the ideas that have been loosed upon society of late.
Thank you Xenia.
Peace to you, your house, and community.
Xenia, I’m pretty sure he was. I was heartened by the visual of standing for life.
I watched the inauguration on CSPAN, before and after, without commentary. I’m sick of the talking heads on both sides of the political spectrum.
The spectacle of the peaceful transfer of power for over 200 years in our nation is an amazing testament in and of itself.
“We are organizing, we are marching, we are resisting.”
Should I be fearful? Quite a bit of carnage and destruction today. My 89 yr old mom is marching in Sacramento tomorrow. Last night I was giving her tips how to make Molotov Cocktails like we did in the 60s.
You beat me to it…thanks for sharing with me and the community.
“Should I be fearful?”
Only if you support bigots, homophobes, Islamophobes, and p*ssygrabbers.
#26 Just did not want to break the rules…
At least with Trump…
There is the possibility of Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices.
And Hillary was corrupt, too.
My daughter and I are joing the March in our city tomorrow. My main reason is I’ve heard our new president say several times he doesn’t have to release his tax returns because he was elected and people don’t care. For me, I am communicating I do care. I care how he acts and what he says/tweets.
I am aware there is a strong pro choice aspect to the marches, but the leadership of our city’s March has said pro life people are welcome.
I hope President Trump will rise up to the challenge, but I hoped that after he was elected and was disappointed.
I think a discussion about what the scripture you posted means under different forms of government would be great. For example, living under totalitarian governments (I am aware that Paul was living under such a government).
I’m marooned in Minnesota without a car or I might join a march, too. I have to be careful who I align myself with, though. I am a conservative Christian and don’t find much common cause with many protesters.
“There is the possibility of Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices”
Well done Michael! well done.
well, resist “according as each man purpose in his heart”…
we Christians have to be very careful how we resist IMNSHO …
i heard today that the internet is full of rancor and folks calling for Trumps assassination – i RESIST that as disgusting, ignorant and dangerous
and as a lone voice here, i guess, i must say that i think both Obama and Trump are honorable men by this world’s standards… not flawless and hard over on the left and on the right… action and reaction? dunno… just praying that our leadership comes to their senses and work for the good of this nation, which needs some “good” right now
When I started to read this thread, I feared it would be about “submitting”, “getting over it” etc.
I am glad to see it is not and have honest hope when I see many of the comments of those joining the resistance and tomorrow’s marches.
I will be attending our local March with my mom and some of my best friends. Excited and proud to show our patriotism by joining with other Americans exercising our right to peaceful protest.
There is a good variety of women on the speakers list tomorrow. Unfortunately, not one Christian woman except if you count the Unitarians.
I also have not seen any church groups say they are attending.
Until today’s thread, I was feeling like I was in an upside down world where Christians do not speak out, do not side with the poor and oppressed. Only align themselves with Republicans and those who “win”.
This thread has given me a deep sense of hope which was very much lacking since November.
London, I would March with you and your mom and friendsif I was in your area.
You made my day…thank you.
Align yourself with Jesus who aligns himself with the oppressed. Don’t worry about agreeing with everyone protesting at your march, just agree with their right to protest and have their voice heard.
That’s what I’m doing, I’m making a sign that has to do with the thing I most want to say about Healthcare and I’m saying that. Everyone else can say what they want. That’s the beauty of free speech. i can stand right next to someone with a sign saying the complete oppose thing and support her right to say it.
Resist the need to be the only voice heard. To me, that’s what tomorrow is about.
Xenia, we’d be honored to have you join us if you were here.
Roman Catholics and black churches historically do not align with the Republican party – so there should be some large representation there in all the marches.
I am sure the Episcopal Church will be there … not to mention the ELCA.
“Resist the need to be the only voice heard. ”
That is one of the wisest and best sentences I’ve read in a long while…
Align yourself with Jesus
What are the main guiding principles of resistance behind the women’s march tomorrow?
If it includes the unfettered access to and support of killing the most helpless among us, a child in the womb, then there is no way I could stand in solidarity with that.
“If it includes the unfettered access to and support of killing the most helpless among us, a child in the womb, then there is no way I could stand in solidarity with that.”
How about everything else that London so clearly stated?
We Pro-Life progressives are taking a stand to be Pro-Life across the entirety of the human experience, just as exemplified by Jesus and His teachings as found in TheGospels.
The fact that abortions are at their lowest, primarily due to women’s access to s*x education and birth control means we’re doing something right.
Duane, thanks for sharing that story with us…how sad and needless…. 😥
Scooter, that information is readily available by googling “women’s march on Washington” (or your local area)
The above is an example of one of the greatest freakouts I’ve seen on video. From the Inauguration.
Quite the reaction.
That poor woman. She is really in grief and despair. I hope someone comforted her!
Tomorrow, my bandmate, Michael, and I will march and play music. I will march in the stead of my 90 year old mother who wishes she could be with us. My focus is not the new President, but the rising tide of intolerance this election cycle has unleashed. We may call it “nationalism”, but we recognize that intolerance and disregard for checks and balances have gone by many other names. My protest will be political, but not partisan… there is a difference.
Good for you Duane!
This will be my moms first political rally. I’m so proud of her getting out there fighting for her rights as a woman!
I have a cold, but I will definitely be out there!
As I said earlier, my 89 yr old mother is marching in Sacramento I think with my brother, sister in law and several nephews – it may be with the ladies from her synagogue. I tried to get them all to carry signs asking Trump not to send us Jews to the death camps. They refused – which I don’t get, they spent the whole election cycle talking about nothing else.
I haven’t heard of any marches in South Orange County or at my other house in Arizona.
And now, like the last 13 years and the past two presidents, we get to endure talk of “FEMA Internment Camps” “Martial Law” and “Hitler.” *sigh*
I am very grateful for MLD on this site.
Orange County March info
There is a march in Santa Ana, CA
My awesome wife is attending.
I have an audio gig, so she’s representing both of us.
My gig is a visiting Jewish scholar with OCCSP for Torah Study at a campus of Shir Ha-Ma’alot. The protest is embodied in education to defeat ignorance and intolerance.
My Portland daughter will be braving the cold.
My families in Spokane & Bellingham are marching in those cities as well.
Reminds me of the resistance to The VietNam War.
Thanks London, you’re our Albuquerque family!
A question from someone who detests Trump:
Why all the demonstrations now? Shouldn’t we wait until he actually does something to protest? I fully expect him to violate many of my values, but don’t we need to keep some dry powder for an actual protest?
This is why the march(s)
“Why is this happening?
The rhetoric of the past election cycle has insulted, demonized and threatened many of us — immigrants, Muslims, Veterans, people who identify as LQBTQ+, Native people, Black and Brown people, people with disabilities, and survivors of sexual assault.
This march is the first step toward unifying our communities and sending a strong message to the new president and his administration that our voices matter. “
I have two elderly friends who lost their entire families – every one – in the camps. Suffice to say, your remark is not funny… at least to some of us.
Excuse me Duane, but it is my Jewish family that has been making the “Trump is going to send the Jews to the death camps” comments.
My brother, who has a 2nd home in Point Roberts WA has the card to get into Canada (you need to drive through Canada) wanted to give me the card to get my grandkids out of the country.
Also, don’t tell me about your friends – I have family. But that does not stop my Jewish family from being total liberal loons. Go talk to them.
Where do you draw the line? When will it be enough for you to protest or speak up?
Here is a good one – I have a niece who has a PhD and works at the Holocaust museum in Washington DC.
Now this is what my brother says (and I don’t believe him because he is always full of crap) but he says the Feds have a Jewish data base and they can find all of us Jews – even the ones like me that he says are hiding under the cover of Christianity.
This is why he wanted me to have the escape route. But he will be out marching … tilting at windmills.
#61 In which case, I would think you would be more circumspect…
You would think wrongly then. I am fighting a cultural insanity with these people and their cohorts (btw, they are all out of UC Berkley – 3 generations
When Trump introduces something, or Congress proposes something, or he signs an executive order which is wrong. Like I said, I fully expect him, directly or through his appointees, to hurt the environment, hurt food safety, hurt worker safety, hurt public education, further discrimination, and further income inequality. Then we protest.
I’m just speaking of timing. I don’t want to wear people out too soon. But, if folks have the energy for the short and the long game, then by all means exercise your rights.
I will say that at this point when he hasn’t actually done anything yet, I am against civil disobedience and I will always be against violence.
#65 Good school…. how did you miss out?
Duane – I was married and stayed local in So Cal. Mid to late 60s, we had a good time protesting, shouting down the opposition, setting fire to a couple of government buildings, sit ins in the administration building etc..
Didn’t do much good – it took only another 6 years to bring the war to an end.
“he hasn’t actually done anything yet”
So, vilifying Mexicans, Muslims, inciting violence at his campaign rallies, mocking a disabled reporter and boasting about s*xual assault aren’t enough to motivate?
Filling his cabinet with horrible picks?
At least we’ll be safe from bears in classrooms O_o
I watched the window breaking etc on the internet today. Can you imagine the poor slob who went into Burger King today and came out to see his car on fire as someone felt entitled because his candidate lost and election?
You are against civil disobedience?
Trump ran on all that stuff you mentioned. Everyone new all that. Why didn’t all the protests take place then? The evangelical community in America thought all that was just peachy. Some of them even said (and say) that Trump is the answer to prayer. That God has anointed him to MAGA.
Some of these protests seem like a protest against democracy. The losers failed by not getting their vote out, by not protesting when they should have, but now, now they are just complaining.
Before you jump down my throat, I have been anti trump from day 1 and I voted against him.
To be very clear, for me, the threat of them doing away with the ACA without a viable replacement is my line in the sand.
Also, I will not stand by and let other American citizens be harassed due simply to their skin color or religion.
i don’t want to wait till something happens, I want to join with those who are saying “don’t let it happen”.
Protesting is just as much a part of democracy as voting is! Protestors are not anti-democracy. They are exercising the rights granted to them by the Bill of Rights. They are speaking out to keep those rights alive.
I am not speaking of violence, but of peaceful protests.
I agree with your red lines. Let me just say that it will take a lot of protests. Billionaires and oligarchs get where they are by not giving a darn about what anyone thinks. Trump and his cabinet are probably collectively worth more than the bottom 100 million U.S. citizens. I am not exaggerating. And, they’re not about to give up their advantages.
One of Trump’s nominees used his Senate position to trade stocks on inside information and no one in the GOP batted an eye in the confirmation hearings.
Good to know you were on the side of the angels…
Those all sound like good reasons to protest to me Jean!
That last post was kind of tongue in cheek.
I honestly am not trying to convince you one way or another about marching. I’m just explaining why I am.
I have NO disillusions about the rich and powerful being willing to give up their advantages. I am also very aware of the populist rhetoric that Trump is spouting.
The policies he’s putting forward, and the awful cabinet picks don’t bode well for what I want to see in this country. I know we can do better.
So, I will march.
Your mileage may vary.
I appreciate your passion and enjoy discussing these issues with you.
well, the rumors of those camps hidden away ready to round us up have been around for decades… it seems to me that whoever wants to stir things up says that it is their people who will go there… is it possible that our nation is going under? of course that’s possible, it’s always been possible
i really cannot see why everyone is so agitated over this transition of power when there has been so much that has gone on in the last 30 years over the whole world that should scare us a bunch…
Gman mentioned “immigrants, Muslims, Veterans, people who identify as LQBTQ+, Native people, Black and Brown people, people with disabilities, and survivors of sexual assault.” and seems to fear that his list will be hurt by the new President… that puzzles me as G man and others here are bright people and i just can’t see the imminent danger to them… and i’ve looked…
why is the woman in the link at #47 pitching a fit? London says she needs comfort, well okay, but i think she needs a whole more than that… maybe she’s challenged in some area?
the one thing that i am praying fervently for is a good overhauling of the government’s healthcare system, which is about to destruct from its own construct… and i’m not too sure that our Congress is principled or bright enough to do the job
pray for the President and take to the streets if and when our prayers fail, but why now? i’m trying to be honest and i am concerned for all the angst now – i do care that so many are so upset… but – again – why?
p.s. and FWIW – the Trump tax thing? i think that his business dealings involve so many convoluted enterprises – intertwined with other big players – that, for him, to make public his complete returns would be almost impossible for the average man to sort thru – i can hardly handle my own – and could jeopardize the privacy of others in these dealing that are not and do not want to go public for a multitude of reasons… there are nuances that we really can’t grasp as we’re not players in the game – as the old saying goes, “the rich are not like us” (sometimes that’s good and sometimes it’s bad 🙂 )
She probably does need more than comfort.
I was trying to get the point across that the one thing she DOESNT need is ridicule which seemed to be the point of the video being posted in the first place.
Also, I call bull on the whole Trump doesn’t need to release his taxes because we, the people, are too dumb to understand them. There are MANY trained people who can understand them quite well! I don’t need to personally understand them. I just want a president who isn’t hiding stuff from the people he says he represents.
Jean, you are such a good guy!
As to why people are upset.
Have you looked at the cabinet picks? They are all white, except for a black man who has been assigned to “fixing” the inner city, and an Asian women married to mitch McConnell.
Where is the representation for people of other colors? Where are the qualified women who stand on their own merits? This is their country too is it not?
There’s no attempt whatsoever in trying to make a diverse cabinet.
People feel like they are no longer offered s seat at the table and that makes them very nervous. Who will be their voice?
This country has, literally overnight, gone from one of the most diversely represented to the worst in history.
That, and much more, is why people stem arching tomorrow.
Likewise. I appreciate your willingness to participate with an open mind.
That last line was meant to say “are marching” obviously.
Jean, i will not be marching but on my knees in prayer…like you
Before I sign off for an evening with Longmire, let me offer a solemn request:
Paul wrote: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Cor 1:18)
When you go to church this weekend, I hope your pastor delivers the word of the cross to you, because it contains power, power to save in the midst of even these political storms. If your pastor fills the pulpit or stage with political commentary, I pray you begin your protests with him in a respectful manner after the service. Tell him, that in God’s house, you want to hear (you need to hear) the word of the cross. Amen.
The Lord be with us all.
London, thanks. I did google the principles behind the women’s march.
I listened to Trump’s speech.
He added mentions of God for his red meat followers.
I honestly felt like he (and maybe his followers?) must live in another land, ’cause what he was saying was so surreal.
The presence near the front of the guy who publishes World Nuts Daily should be a good tipoff.
I guess if facts don’t matter anymore…
Hope you read this far down past the protest comments, but I really appreciate this article. I especially like what you said here:
“I am one of God’s people in exile”
This is always true. Always. No matter if “God’s party” is supposedly in office or not. I don’t really have a dog in this fight/battle/protest cause I didn’t vote this year, so I will leave it at that.
Keep up the good work and writing!
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.”
London, thank you for taking the trouble to elucidate a bit for me…
“Where is the representation for people of other colors? Where are the qualified women who stand on their own merits? This is their country too is it not?
There’s no attempt whatsoever in trying to make a diverse cabinet.”
i see the wisdom in concern for representation where decisions are being made, but the other side of the coin is that diversity can equal dilution – we end up with a lot of rhetoric and not much results, if we are more concerned with it at the expense of experience and competence (it seems to me that we have been doing so for a long time now – not pinning it on our last president) – Trump has picked quite a few proven competent people, so now it remains to be seen if that will benefit the nation as a whole or segregate us further into haves and have nots…
a couple of the statements here have me scratching my head:
#91-“we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” why would another spoke help?
“Resist the need to be the only voice heard. ” …?… why would one need to be the only voice heard? listened to maybe, but heard? 🙂
one thing sure i have no trouble resisting marching alone up and down my road tomorrow – it’s cold and there’s no one out there, but snow plows
Are Trump’s taxes still a thing? Funny, I seem to remember anyone who raised questions about Obama’s academic career (all his transcripts are sealed) and his qualification for office were roundly told to ‘shut up and sit down’ was called racist, or was dismissed as a tinfoil hat wearing basement dweller. Now we have emotional crises because he didn’t show his taxes, or he has ‘conflicts of interest’ with his business. I never heard a peep about the Clinton Foundation’s apparent conflict of interest from anyone except conspiracy websites in the back waters of the Internet, until she was the nominee, then the MSM couldn’t sweep it under the rug fast enough.. What gets me is that you guys coming out against Trump think he’s a bully, or he’s rude and cruel, but Obama dropped a bomb or missile somewhere in the world every 20 minutes for 8 years. We engaged in an orgy of regime change, destabilization, drone assassinations, and proxy wars. We foolishly pulled out of Iraq and promptly watched ISIS take control of large parts of it. Many combat vets I know were outraged that their efforts in Iraq and all the American combat deaths were for nothing. Then they had to go back and do it again. That Civil war in Syria would have been cleaned up in months, but no, with our funding, weapons and training, it became a major conflagration creating a refugee crisis of epic proportions. Hillary was gearing up for more war, with Russia next in her sights. ( A no fly zone in Syria would bring us into a hot conflict with Russia) Our ‘moderate rebel allies’ now cut off the heads of teenagers in battle. I don’t care about Trump’s past. I don’t care about his gaffes and rude behavior. If he dismantles a foreign policy based on 70 years of destabilization and regime change, and finally no American bombs are killing people in Third World Countries, it will be good enough. Unless you are here illegally and have committed a crime, (other than being here illegally) you have nothing to worry about from a Trump Administration. Gays, Women, Minorities and Muslim are NOT going to ‘Camps.’ They will not be persecuted. (Trump is pro gay for heaven’s sake. He was one of the first to promote women above the glass ceiling.) You guys are worried about what Trump might do, but where is the outrage at what we as a country have been doing since 2002?
Way to selectively pick and choose.
Fact: every president in modern times has disclosed their taxes. Why would you equate someone’s tax return with someone’s academic record?
What’s Trump hiding? Maybe boyfriend Putin will spill.
You have set up a straw man. The comments here are regarding Michael’s post of today and the new president. You have no idea what else has disturbed any of us about Syria or any of the other issues you raise. I am marching tomorrow for because I am a conservative evangelical Christian and I am speaking out as a pro life person, who believes pro life means much more than being anti abortion, including some of thre issues you mention.
I would not and did not vote for President Obama and disagreed with many of his policies. I would not and did not vote for Donald Trump and I am deeply concerned by his character and how that is influencing his decisions. I remember back when Clinton, another odious president, was in power and conservatives kept proclaiming that character matters. The Clinton response was, “It’s the economy, stupid!” How the roles have reversed! I still believe character matters. DJT has quite proudly displayed his and I’m disgusted.
BTW, I brought up DJT’s taxes as an example of his attitude – “I can do what I want because I was elected and that means people don’t care.” No, Mr President, we do care!
Kudos to you for exercising your critical thinking skills.
Not sure how many Trump voters realize that there are MILLIONS of them who are on the Affordable Care Act.
Hopefully I’m not overstepping bounds by posting this (if so, delete Michael) but an article that’s been brewing in me since the election finally got written: “Trump Won, But Christians Lost”. If anyone’s interested, it’s at http://www.laughandlift.com/personalarticles/trumpwonchristianslost.html
Both sides longing for the violence of the state to enforce their agenda. Sad commentary on Christians and politics.
With the Alex thread closed, I’ll leave this here.
Michael, your pastor’s heart has been so evident throughout this ordeal. Thank you, bless you.
Julie Anne is a wise woman.
Alex, you’re free my brother. I love you and rejoice with you.
How amazing is our God?
Jim, I concur regarding Alex. I was also going to leave a comment, but see the comments section closed.
Someone in my family has been going through a reconciliation process for several mos. now. They were badly betrayed.
It’s not a forgive and forget process…
Some days are better than others for them, however, the pain and anger resurfaces frequently and the requirement of faith to exercise forgiveness is a challenge.
I wish Alex and his family all the best.
Michael, I really appreciated this post.
However, on Facebook, I was informed by an erstwhile family member that “God is on the throne,” and I need to “shut up.” Then I was informed that I can’t be a Christian because I don’t like the President. Do these folks realize that what they are doing borders on idolatry.
I think it’s over the border line of idolatry in many cases…and I’ll tell you why.
Anything that causes us to compromise our biblical principles resulting in division from the brethren is an idol.
The way we in the church speak and interact with each other over political differences shows that idolatry is rampant in this country and it’s rampant among the most biblically conservative of us.
“Unless you are here illegally and have committed a crime, (other than being here illegally) you have nothing to worry about from a Trump Administration.”
Patrick, I find this to be among the oddest things in this election.
The President got huge traction by promising to build a wall and deport 11 million people.
His supporters have been telling me for months, “don’t worry, he didn’t really mean it”.
He made hay with the idea of a Muslim registry .
Once again, “don’t worry, he didn’t really mean it”.
How do we know what he means and why wouldn’t these failures to do what is promised upset his supporters?
ahhh the tax thing… i don’t think it is too important – but when i say that we couldn’t really understand his tax filings, i wasn’t slamming anyone’s intelligence – truth be told, i don’t think even the IRS is able to come down hard and fast on the requirements set up for major businesses… i have a mental picture of them saying, “well, I think that’s an accurate application…” 🙂 we need tax reform among other reforms… we really do have a politician created swamp… we do need a new – maybe some call it mean – approach in Washington
is Trump a budding Hitler as some fear? well, if he is, don’t forget the genius of the founding Fathers, we still have checks and balances to our government’s administration and the impeachment card…
would our military (our kin) enforce brutality on us? not unless the whole country went haywire and turned on some of us (could happen – pray it doesn’t)
Michael instructed: ““He’s not my President”.
While I mostly agree with their sentiments regarding the new President, I also have to remind myself that biblically, he is my President.”
while i voted for Obama the first time, for the most part i’ve been reminding that myself of that truth for 20+ years now…
we’ve elected a president from a whole new gene pool… i hope God is smiling, He already knows we’re sinners – pray to see what He can do through this one
I was trying be kind.
These folks are dancing around their vey own golden calf. It’s a sad state of affairs.
It’s too early for me to have my kind on… 🙂
Right now at the Women’s March in Indianapolis. Thousands are here. The saddest part of this exercise, is how people are speaking from the platform about evangelicals and “church people” – groups now wholly identified with Trump and his policies and behavior by both the speakers and a good part of the protesters. It will take years to deal with the perceptions.
First, be careful and know we’re with you in spirit.
The perceptions will continue…because a great many of our brothers and sisters want to perpetuate them.
It’s incumbent on the rest of us to speak clearly and graciously…and listen well to the hearts of those who differ with us.
***Not sure how many Trump voters realize that there are MILLIONS of them who are on the Affordable Care Act.***
Of course there are millions of people on the ACA. It was specifically set up to force people to purchase coverage or be penalized for not doing so. Subtly castigating Trump supporters as stupid and or ignorant is not going to change the multitude of problems with the ACA. Unless you’re poor, the coverage is next the worthless. $200 a month for a plan with a $6000 deductible is ridiculous. And god help you if you don’t qualify for a subsidy at all in which case you could easily end up paying $600+ a month for a crappy bronze plan. The only reason people don’t realize how fiscally unsound the whole thing is is because the subsidies mask the truly outrageous cost of it all. And, on another note, even after multiple years the government still hasn’t been able to create a decent website. God help you if you have problems because it’s going to be an absolute minimum of 30 days to see it fixed and there is literally no way for a healthcare.gov employee to go into their system and manually override anything.
I don’t know that Trump and the Republicans are capable of coming up with a viable alternate plan but Hillary certainly wouldn’t have been able to fix it. And, like it or not–and regardless of how stupid you may think Trump supporters are–the ACA as is currently exists is not sustainable and has serious structural issues.
I never said Trump supporters were stupid. You’re free to draw your own conclusions.
I’m saying millions of them had their health care asses saved thanks to the ACA. And Congress will be hearing from those whose lives have been change for the better.
If the Repubs. can make it better…I hope they knock themselves out. But I’m very doubtful. They don’t believe government is good for much of anything, if anything.
Of course it’s not perfect. The Dems were fortunate to get it passed at all, thanks to the Repubs. who did their very best to derail it.
Funny thing is, Obamacare is almost identical to the healthcare plan that Massachusetts had when Mitt Romney was governor. But if it had Obama’s name on it, it must be evil, I guess.
You implied that they dont know they’re getting coverage through the ACA. Whether you intended to or not, you were basically making fun of their intellect.
No. I wasn’t.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
with sincere respect to all who have posted wisdom on this thread and some their hearts, also, as i read today, what stands out as our Achilles’ heel – all of us – is our desire to see the other side demonized as the root of our nation’s problems…
we may gain something if we step back and ask ourselves just what is going on… just who is piping the tune we’re dancing to… do we want to be their puppets? do we want to be anybody’s? i hate labels, they make it too easy to avoid thinking
FWIW, i second Michael’s admonition to Duane to take care – all who are participating in these marches please be careful… there on those extremists who foment mayhem for many reasons and these crowds look very tempting, i suspect
There may be many people who have had their healthcare asses saved by the ACA, but there are also many people who have seen their premiums rise exorbitantly and have been placed in the situation of having the either purchase insurance that does not offer a reasonable benefit for the price or vet financially penalized for not purchasing it. I just wish people who are so up in arms over the idea of repealing and replacing the ACA would stop talking as if it were such a great boon to the people it’s been forced upon because for many people who have it it’s not that great.
So to be clear, you did not mean to question whether millions of Trump supporters were unaware that they were receiving health insurance through the ACA.
J2, I think it’s safe to assume that anon believes Trump voters are “stupid.”
Regarding the ACA, President Obama was very dishonest about many aspects of the plan. This is indisputable.
One of his chief architects, Jonathan Gruber admitted that the Obama administration went through “tortuous”
measures to keep the facts about the legislation being a tax from the American people.
Justice John Roberts was key in affirming and saving the legislation on that basis.
Gruber also said after the fact, they took political advantage of the “stupidity” of the American voter in concealing how the plan would really work.
I remember Pelosi saying, “we have to pass the bill so we know what’s in it.” Which is just nuts. And that they did, without one single yes vote from the Republicans from what I remember.
One can agree or disagree on whether or not it’s the government’s role to provide healthcare for it’s citizenry.
However, to distort the historical facts as to how this legislation was crafted, passed and implemented is disingenuous, in my opinion.
#110 and #115
Michael and em,
Thanks for your concern and prayers. Back safe and sound. Still reflecting on the day. My overarching impression is that we have a great deal of ground to make up. The perception of most, but not all in the crowd today, is that “evangelicals” and “church people” hold similar, if not identical, values to that of DJT. These are not bad people, but they take on what they hear – RC priests abuse children, evangelical pastors lie about sexual misconduct, Christian men bully their wives, we all home school children or send them to ‘Christian’ schools because we don’t want them to mix with minorities… the list goes on and on. Then they come out of an election season after hearing of DJT’s comments and conduct, with those very same ‘evangelicals’ and ‘church people’ giving him a ‘pass’ on what he says and does (or has done in the past) and they assume that we all agree with him. Moreover, they see church leaders and evangelicals praying and giving thanks for his election. Now, we see nuance (as we should). They see a straight line from one to the other.
My dilemma is what do we do to maintain a witness of compassionate Christian faith in such an atmosphere? The crowd does not understand the situation in the way that we understand it. Could I share a platform with Franklin Graham? Right now it would be difficult. How about Greg Laurie? I probably could. But that’s because I recognize the nuance. Others do not and would see them as one and the same. We have a long and difficult path in front of us…
“My dilemma is what do we do to maintain a witness of compassionate Christian faith in such an atmosphere?”
I think two things off the top of my head.
First, I didn’t march today, but I was able to help a couple homeless folks…and their dogs.
The point being, we become very intentional about living out our faith locally, in our communities.
( I know you get that already.)
Second, we refuse to engage in the vitriol that is taking place on social media as we speak from both sides.
We learn to engage with the grace that we have been given as we try to get people to listen to each others real concerns and respond in a way that facilitates both understanding and change.
Social media is taking us down…
I got up at the crack of dawn to finish knitting my pink hat with hopes of joining the March in Minneapolis, but didn’t get to participate after all due to transportation problems. I received texts and photos from family around the country as they participated in their cities’ marches.
I am definitely not in sync with many of the marchers’ goals. If I was asked , I would have said I was marching for my granddaughter and for the environment. And for decency.
“There may be many people who have had their healthcare asses saved by the ACA, but there are also many people who have seen their premiums rise exorbitantly and have been placed in the situation of having the either purchase insurance that does not offer a reasonable benefit for the price or vet financially penalized for not purchasing it. ”
I am totally in support of universal health care.
The ACA did indeed save me…but I know many who have no health care now because of it.
Those of us who are in favor of the program must hear these people and seek to change the program so it’s equitable for all.
#122 – “The ACA did indeed save me…but I know many who have no health care now because of it.” maybe God did it just for you, Michael – you and one of my daughters… 🙂 maybe – dunno, but i thank Him
“Those of us who are in favor of the program must hear these people and seek to change the program so it’s equitable for all.” THAT IS the key – as written it is a bad, bad mess, that sprang from a wonderful intention… or so it seems to me today…
You said something up the page about not demonizing the other side of these debates…that’s where Christians need to take a firm stand on both sides.
My daughter and I have just returned from the LA March, where 10,000s of people participated. Even though we were packed in, the crowd was the politest I have ever been in. One man had a trumpet and played “America The Beautiful” and “The Star Spangled Banner” while the entire crowd sang along. It was powerful and moving. There were some signs I disagreed with, but for the most part, people were very positive and there were a lot of young kids present. In fact, if I could say it reminded me of anything, it was that it looked like America – every race and age group was present. The people present in the crowd had a lot in common with me, a conservative evangelical pro life woman. The only person who attacked me personally was a street preacher in his box yelling at everyone walking past about how they were supporting abortion and that people get abortions because they don’t know who the daddy is and support murder. He was saying this to me, someone who has participated in many Operation Rescue sit ins and was wearing a pro life/human rights button. I told him I was pro life and he started yelling at the people behind me. Completely ineffective.
I am very glad I was there. I saw that George Soros and others are beingw credited with bussing in paid protesters. That is not at all what I saw. America was represented there today and I would say they are as much patriots as the supporters of President Trump.
thinking on this conversation here as i was outside in the slush – it isn’t powder anymore, sigh
as some folk here have noted, the world is susceptible to hatred and vitriol, even to the extent of distorting or exaggerating another’s actions or words…
the world is susceptible, we shouldn’t be – we, who follow Christ have no excuse for doing so … and we are doing so …
it is evil thinking and evil only has one source, so it should scare us when we sneer and accuse… we need wisdom to know when we are compromising, when we are in pride defending what isn’t ours to defend and, then also, when we are standing as the Lord intends us to do… yes, we may be mistaken sometimes as to where we chose to stand, but let’s not sin in the way we stand… or so it seems to me …
perhaps the inter-faith prayers we’ve witnessed aren’t a bad thing IF those who pray in Jesus’ holy name would pound the podium as they say it and scowl at the others as they petition their false gods… i have a hunch Jesus wasn’t smiling when He prayed for the Father to forgive those crucifying Him as they did not know what they were doing…
saw a great sign being held up by someone in one of the crowds: “I’m angry, so I made this sign” – that’s probably about as basically honest as anyone got out there 🙂
***I am totally in support of universal health care.
The ACA did indeed save me…but I know many who have no health care now because of it.
Those of us who are in favor of the program must hear these people and seek to change the program so it’s equitable for all.***
I’m not opposed to the concept of universal healthcare. It really depends on whatever the actual legislation was.
I also know people who were really helped by the ACA. But I also know lots of people who have been harmed. I’m really bothered by some of the things I have read that basically claim people who want the ACA repealed don’t care about others or are heartless or are stupid.
Also, I didn’t vote for Trump, but I know many people who did and I know that they aren’t the racist, women-hating, ignorant people that they are being castigated as. It hurts me deeply to see them spoken of so badly. And I wish that there could be a greater acknowledgement of the underlying reasons why they ended up voting for Trump.
I agree, but with some caveats… How do we identify? That is, “Yes, we are a part of this other group”, but, at the same time, “They are not who we are…” Local is key. Retreat from vitriol on social media, yes. But how do we identify who we are in terms of the culture? This may be the central issue in the coming decade… (Questions rather than conclusions…)
I must live in an alternate universe and do not understand the conversation between Duane and Michaels. Today alone I have generated a half dozen FB articles, perhaps more slapping the anti Trump folks – and everyone has slapped back. Strangers and friends from high school from 50 yrs ago.
Not once did our religious beliefs come up. No one accused me of supporting Trump because I am a booger eating Christian and I accused no one of being a virgin sacrificing paganso what’s up with you guys and this highly recommended peace treaty?
I get it all the time, and even more concerning, T gets it at school.
If it’s not part of your reality then you probably won’t have much to contribute to the conversation.
I’ve been thinking about it all day…and I can’t even define who I am in relation to the church,let alone the culture…
🙂 #129 had me sitting here trying to figure out what a ‘virgin sacrificing paganso’ was 🙂
sometimes old age is fun
in a reply from Michael he said, “You said something up the page about not demonizing the other side of these debates…that’s where Christians need to take a firm stand on both sides.”
#s 128 & 131 don’t know if i’ll express my thought clearly, but …
something jumped out at me regarding Christians taking a firm stand – a little preposition…
should our stand be ‘on’ one side? – or should our stand be ‘toward’ both “sides”?
i don’t know whether we Christians are above, to the right or to the left (pretty sure we’re not below), but wherever we’re to stand, i suspect it’s outside of this whole hoopla – dunno …?…
i’ll be even more annoying here tonight – who are you in relation to the Church?
you are a ‘part’ of the Church – whatever you’re doing or should do, you’re simply a ‘part’ of the body…
does the hand say, “what am I in relation to this body?” it simply does its hand job…
and the body can just deal with it.
does the foot say, “stupid hand?” or “my what a lovely hand up there?” no, it’s too busy doing it’s job (getting stepped on and carrying on) 🙂
My experience was similar. The one time the church got mentioned from the stage, at least where I could hear, was in a poem about corruption.
However, the rest of my experience at the Albuquerque March was amazing! Great people, everyone polite, everyone supportive, happy, having fun with people of all ages.
All kinds of issues addressed.
We had from 10,000 – 15,000 people. More than any other event on the plaza in town ever.
No issues, no violence, no conflicts of people with different ideas.
Was a great experience!
“If it’s not part of your reality then you probably won’t have much to contribute to the conversation.”
Make no mistake, that is my contribution to the conversation. I am trying to point out to you guys to communicate more like me on social media – converse in a style where you can forcefully mix it up with people without taking people’s character and motives hostage.
“‘virgin sacrificing paganso’ —- did you figure it out? It should have read;
‘virgin sacrificing pagan so…’ 🙂
Michael, I agree. I find it hard to make “common cause” with the mega-church, or the preachers of a prosperity Gospel, the “Moses model” churches, etc. More important, in my mind at least, is how our “alienation” in terms of Church affects the way in which we share the Gospel and how that Gospel is perceived by the culture at large owing to the recent election. It seems to me that the Confessing Church movement may become our reality as well…
MLD – “more like me…” I think not…
” I find it hard to make “common cause” with the mega-church, or the preachers of a prosperity Gospel, the “Moses model” churches, etc. ”
Now I understand your angst better. In my world we are not to try to find “common cause” with those who are either / both heterodox or of different practice. Perhaps this is why we do things all “in house”.
I too would be wearing a sad face if I thought “common cause” was a goal. We do our own missions, our own publishing, our own outreach and human care. Even next week at the March for Life you will see many separate and particular Lutheran events.
I had the same experience at the LA March and there were and estimated 750,000 people in attendance.
I am disturbed this morning, though. I watched Sean Spicer’s statement to the White House Press Corps, where he obviously lied and then Kellyann Conway’s interview on Meet The Press, where she ducked and obfuscated when asked about the lies told by Sean Spicer. I am at a loss as to why my Christian brothers and sisters and people like Franklin Graham, are not decrying the lying and manipulation flowing from President Trump. I completely understand supporting him because you believe in his platform or because you respect the office, but the lack of character not even being addressed, completely befuddles me.
I have read prophetic words from well known “prophets” that declare his honesty and that the terrible winter this year is a sign of the coldness in people’s hearts towards this president. I seriously do not get the dissonance going on and its presence grieves me.
“More important, in my mind at least, is how our “alienation” in terms of Church affects the way in which we share the Gospel and how that Gospel is perceived by the culture at large owing to the recent election.”
This election is just the culmination of what’s been happening for years.
It simply amplified what was already there.
The thing I have to come to grips with is that the way I define the Christian faith is radically different from mainstream Christianity today…to the degree that it’s actually a different faith entirely.
Good to hear of both your experiences. The lies and manipulations are disturbing, especially this early on in the term.
It is interesting that when I said in a thread right after the election that I had attended a protest, there were a few who offered tentative support. Perceptions are obviously changing. The British have always had the idea of a “loyal opposition”. I hope we can bring a Christian witness to our “loyal opposition”. It is really not about politics at this point. It is about basic values…
“I am trying to point out to you guys to communicate more like me on social media – converse in a style where you can forcefully mix it up with people without taking people’s character and motives hostage.”
The forcefully mixing it up contributes nothing to any resolution…it simply evokes applause from the echo chamber.
I read some of your comments…and they were one long mockery of those who differ with you.
Social media is now just a place where we compete to see who the biggest jerk can be…I can win that battle every day of the week (with stout competition from you), but I lose any hope of being heard.
Agreed. Much of Liberal Christianity seems committed to collective suicide. Much of Conservative and evangelical Christianity, owing to their political alignment, are sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind. Unfortunately, we are caught in a very narrow place between the two… exile and wilderness, indeed.
Michael, if that is your view of social media, why haven’t you pulled the plug on Facebook and Twitter? It seems you would then be living in utopia and at peace.
My point about the way I communicate is that I have not given anyone a bad view of my Christian faith. No one accused my comments of being from my Bible beliefs.
“Michael, if that is your view of social media, why haven’t you pulled the plug on Facebook and Twitter? It seems you would then be living in utopia and at peace.”
I don’t hide from things as they really are.
There have been a lot of times lately where I did want to pull the plug…but that is not going to change anything.
My concern is that I use the platform I have to peoples benefit,not our mutual destruction.
Michaels,I don’t think people take Facebook conversations as seriously as you do. Probably 95% is for fun and good natured sparring sport.
Check out my latest post – sports or political? Can you tell the difference? 😉
“I am at a loss as to why my Christian brothers and sisters and people like Franklin Graham, are not decrying the lying and manipulation flowing from President Trump.”
Simply: they’re power whores.
Conservative evangelicals have a long history of cozying up to authoritarians and tin-pot dictators. They love order — boy, do they.
Trump, et. al’s lies have gotten so bad that the Weekly Standard — a conservative mag if there ever was one — called them on the carpet today. That’s really bad.
someone is concerned about the lying and manipulation… hate to be the bearer of bad tidings here, but that has been coming out of Washington (D.C.) for quite a number of years – decades – and is perpetrated by quite a few, if not most, of the personality boys and girls we’ve chosen to make our laws and run this nation… how do you think they’ve risen to prominence? not by virtue – a facade of it, perhaps, but that is a facade and is the result of being very good at lying…
sometimes it seems to me that today we’re looking for the Christ to rule over us – the Christ that the Jewish nation sought 2,000 years ago to rule over them … and then they crucified the guy
we need to pray for wisdom, discretion and discernment, cuz from where i sit we’ve not got it yet – dunno, tho, do i 🙂
just sayin … again …
Anon, The Weekly Standard is no conservative bastion.
Bill Kristol is a neo-conservative, and as editor in chief and co-founder of the magazine, was a staunch opponent of Trump.
He was one of the first “Never Trump” proponents on the scene.
Trump’s press sec, etc.: 2=2=5
Or, 2-2=whatever we say it is.
You missed my point. I am in no way surprised at lying and manipulation. I am completely mystified at not only the lack of apparent concern by Christians, but the reaffirming of this man’s wonderful, “God anointed” character.
sorry to have misread you, little people… we are then in agreement that those in the Christian community who are elevating our new president to virtues that he hasn’t shown that he has are, indeed, very mystifying?
while i have no problem with Christians saying that President Trump and Company come closer to outlining what they want to see happen now – saying that they’re trusting him to get the job done (that cleaning of the swamp thing & good luck and god-speed there)…
playing off of that thought, it concerns me that we would even think that we could elect “a man of God” – for one thing, it seems to me that the man of God has bigger work to do
i do think that whoever is in charge, tho, is there according to God’s plan for the ages… that is history is, has, and will ultimately play out according to His will… nations, as a whole, do get the governments they deserve and that is a scary thought
#137 – yes, MLD, i finally did figure out the space bar thing… LOL
however, i kind of liked the virgin sacrificing paganso… sounds like the ultimate insult 🙂
hmmm who or what is a paganso?
everyone is so upset…. 🙁
Praying for our nation!
P.S. to 154… i realize that i just left the door open for MLD to claim that a virgin sacrificing paganso is an evangelical pastor… NOT ! ! !
praying for our family here at PP