The Anti-Christ In Front Of Us: Kevin H

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86 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    Just a note that I was the one who wrote the headline to this piece, not Kevin. I approve and concur with the content within the article and thank God for men of courage and faith like Kevin.

  2. Jean says:

    There used to be a conservative principle: If you don’t prosecute crime, you will get more of it.

    I know people still drag this principle out when it comes to shop lifting. But does it also apply to taking, keeping, lying about, and hiding national security secrets? Does it apply to attempting to overturn a lawful election?

    What are conservative principles today on the topic of crime; of law and order?

    There is a spiritual component to someone who would deny and/or defend such conduct.

  3. Michael says:

    There is a spiritual component to all that is taking place in this country, from both sides of the aisle.

    In this case it is the willing fall to deception, followed by a doubling down to idolatry.

    We are in dire spiritual straits , not because of the culture, but because the church has refused to follow Jesus.

  4. Officerhoppy says:

    Great article Kevin. I am still amazed that so called “Christians” continue to support him. But you’ve laid it out fairly clearly. It’s conservatives vs liberals. And the conservatives will back Trump even if he is an accused/sex offender and a felon. They will believe it’s all political and the charges leveled against him a witch hunt.

    Boggles the mind

  5. Michael says:

    I’ve always identified as a centrist, usually Democrat, though Oregon used to produce men like Mark Hatfield who was a thoughtful Republican that I thought the world of.

    I believe that we would benefit from an honest, centrist Republican at the helm…the leftward drift has drifted too far and we need a course correction.

    If the right would choose a champion of decent moral fiber and character, people like me are ripe for the picking.

    Instead they offer me a probable felon or idiots like Marjorie Green.

    Voting has become an exercise in who terrifies one the least…I’ll just focus on the kingdom where no voting is allowed or necessary.

  6. Michael says:

    I will note again that the spiritual aspect of this is where our attention should be focused…that is a concern that the church must address.

  7. Bob Sweat says:

    Kevin,

    If I ever write a book, I want you to be my ghostwriter. You express my thoughts in ways where I would fall short.

    Great article!

  8. Jean says:

    The reason I said there is a “spiritual component,” is that when someone says “x is true” but have no evidence other than the bare assertion of a politician or preacher, then what they mean is they have access to truth which is prophetic and revealed to them but is hidden from the rest of us.

    Or, if someone says “so and so’s conduct doesn’t matter to me because he is what my country or church needs”, what they mean is that they have some sort of access to God’s will, which has revealed to them that God has exempted such politician or preacher from the ordinary laws God has revealed to the rest of us in the Bible.

  9. bob1 says:

    Count me as also a fan of the late Sen. Hatfield. What a principled statesman and professing Xn he was. And lest we think right wing outrage is something new, it isn’t. He’d regularly get mail addressed to him as “Dear S—head.” This was 40-50 yrs ago! I devoured his books.

  10. Officerhoppy says:

    Bob1
    The era of Statesmen in politics is long gone.

  11. Stephen Swanson says:

    So you don’t believe that Donald Trump. Was prefigured in the Bible by Jehu defeating jezebel. A lot of people disliked the abrasive personality. Especially false prophets like Russell Moore or David French. Who gave his blessing to drag shows. tell me Jehu wasn’t a wild man or abrasive. This is the kind of shortsighted trash that gets praised here. Say a bad word about Jonathan Cahn here and I’ll know you’ve gone to the dark side. Beyond redemption. Some decent people didn’t favor Trump also, but voted for him and said so. But never calling antichrist.
    What madness. But maybe par for the course here.

  12. Kevin H says:

    Sorry for my late arrival to the discussion. I had other appointments to tend to.

  13. Kevin H says:

    Michael, I concur with the title.

  14. Kevin H says:

    Jean,

    For many conservatives and seemingly for the representative party, the only principle left is loyalty to personality. It’s no longer about principles but rather person.

  15. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Officerhoppy. Yes for many, it as if Trump has complete and utter control over how one is to think of him. He once said something to the effect that he could murder a man in broad daylight and still not lose any supporters. Tragically, he was seemingly quite accurate in his statement.

  16. Kevin H says:

    Bob S,

    As a fellow heretic, I’d be honored to be your ghostwriter.

  17. Kevin H says:

    Stephen Swanson,

    The outrageousness of your comment in whole only further reinforces my assertions.

    Trump was prefigured in the Bible….. Seemingly the only bad point about him is his abrasive personality….. That if I would say a bad word about Jonathan Cahn then I am “beyond redemption”.

    Such talk is utter nonsense and has absolutely no correlation with the Christian faith once delivered.

  18. Kevin H says:

    I know that many will just write this off as me once again being on my hobby horse and getting my pound of flesh. But please see my heart behind it as indicated in my last sentence. I grieve for what has become of so much of my church family and I am crying out for them to repent and to return to their first Love. A Love that will joyously run to them, welcoming them back with His best robe and the fattened calf and a celebration.

  19. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    I think Jonathan Cahn is a consummate bull… artist.

    Jesus told me He agrees.

  20. bob1 says:

    Wow. A full-blown Trump cultist on here.

    I mean, I’d heard of such, but…

  21. richard says:

    with Trump and his supreme court appointments, many would say that abortion on demand would’ve remained. Can one not say that he had a hand in the partial cessation of the murder of innocents ?

    he definitely has a handle on how many many people feel in this country….about border security, foreign wars, abortion, our military, on smaller government and other things.

    he is an egotistical liar, boorish, and an overall jerk. But…. in my opinion, a better choice than Biden, when comparing moral stances. And he just may be your president again for a second term. Pray for him.

  22. richard says:

    sorry, i meant to say “without Trump and his SCOTUS appointments”

  23. Michael says:

    Richard,

    This issue isn’t about policy…it’s about baptizing a heathen for the sake of political power.

    This will not work in Gods economy…

  24. richard says:

    while there are more than a few christians who idolize the man, it doesn’t make him the anti-christ or anything like that. It does make those christians wrong.Just as he is using some evangelicals to gain political power, so too are some evangelicals using him to gain political power. God could care less about political power. But looking at the direction and vision that Trump desires for this country vs the direction and vision that the current administration has are two very different directions and many may say that his vision is one that many Americans agree with. I wish too that someone better would come along, but until they do……

  25. Kevin H says:

    richard,

    Once more, as Michael already said, the purpose of this article is not about policy or “direction and vision”. It is about the behavior of many Christians and many segments of the church who have chosen to create and follow after a false christ. Seemingly you are not one of them, and that is good, as you seem to be able to differentiate between policy and the person. However, many Christians have lumped just about all of it together as one big entity that they have chosen to follow, support, and defend with blind allegiance.

    Trump is not “the” Antichrist, but undoubtedly the manner in which he has intentionally charmed Christians by telling them he’s going to fight for them and accomplish the things they want done, and the manner in which people have clamored for and indiscriminately followed him despite the many wicked things he has done and continues to do, most definitely makes him an anti-christ (or false christ or false prophet) like figure as characterized in Scripture, including by Jesus, Himself.

  26. Jean says:

    richard wrote:

    “But looking at the direction and vision that Trump desires for this country vs the direction and vision that the current administration has are two very different directions and many may say that his vision is one that many Americans agree with.”

    About 6 million fewer voters sided with Trump’s vision in the last election. Furthermore, even voters who may agree with some of his polices are not willing to surrender the US Constitution and rule of law to have his vision.

    Many people today are spoiled and impatient. Instead of competing in a campaign of ideas and policies and trying to win elections (so that their favored policies are implemented), they instead would rather subvert our institutions to get their way. In the long run, those policies they want become a trojan horse which end up causing far more harm or even destruction to the fabric of our Republic.

  27. Alan says:

    Let’s see another non political post about politics. With the usual disclaimer at the end.

    Conspiratorial eschatologies do abound. I heard Bickle say that one day everyone will either have to disavow Israel or take the mark of the beast. The new replacement theology is to replace Christ with Israel.

    Governments are by nature antichrist. Trump is low hanging fruit. Whatever.

  28. Jean says:

    Alan,
    There always seems to be a replacement theology by which Christ is replaced.

    IMO the only way to keep Christ in his rightful place is to return to the Gospels and ask: What sort of man is this?

    The Gospels tell us precisely who the Christ is. From there the only question is whether we will believe in, and as a consequence, follow, the Christ of the Bible?

  29. Jean says:

    I have never heard a Democrat candidate encourage anyone to have or promote an abortion. But what I have heard from some Republicans, codified in some state laws (and IMO against the teaching of the Bible), is that if I “feel” threatened with bodily harm or death (regardless of whether my feeling is accurate) that I am authorized to respond with deadly force. Those Republicans have codified lawful murder under the euphemism of “stand your ground.”

  30. Alan says:

    Jean

    Stand your ground sir.

    Jesus the same yesterday today forever.

  31. Michael says:

    Again, Kevin’s point wasn’t about policy.
    It was about the church embracing a heathen for power.

    Where I live a person slept with their doors open at night during the summer.

    It was a cultural assumption that unauthorized entry could result in death.

    That assumption afforded us safety and a lovely breeze in the night

    I much prefer that world to the current multi-deadbolt/ Ring camera desperation…

  32. Michael says:

    These are difficult issues.
    My reading of the New Testament seems to clearly prescribe non violent responses to violent provocation.

    I believe this is the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

    Knowing that, if someone entered my home and violently threatened my mom or my cat, I would blow them to hell and have a sandwich while I waited for the police.

    The insane crime rate foisted upon us as the result of progressive policies has put me In a place of thinking of arming myself for our protection.
    Gods not done with me yet, I guess.

  33. Muff Potter says:

    There is nothing wrong at all with armed defense of one’s own domicile.
    My progressive friends recoil in horror.
    Not to worry though, my conservative friends want to expel me from the faith for some of my other views.

  34. Officerhoppy says:

    Trump prefigured in the Bible? That’s a stretch.

    Seems like a concept imported to the scriptures.

    You may be right or you may be wrong. That’s the problem with modern day interpreters of prophetic scriptures.

  35. Muff Potter says:

    @ Officerhoppy:
    During my time in fundagelicalism, I’ve found that you (generic you) can ‘prove’ just about anything you want from the Bible.

  36. Michael says:

    Muff,

    According to my email, I’m a “whore” for both sides of the divide…

  37. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael…

    Sounds like your pissing off the people that need to be pissed off…er…have their paradigm challenged. Keep following where the Lord is leading. You are an inspiration to me, and I mean that!

  38. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Many thanks my friend…you help me keep on keeping on.

  39. Senecagriggs says:

    Centrist Bob Dole; got his ass kicked. Centrist John McCain; got his ass kicked. Centrist Mitt Romney, got his ass kicked. Mike Pence’s chance of winning the Presidency? Nil times zero.
    ____
    I am so not a fan of Trump, but if you think Joe Biden is a finer man you simply haven’t paid attention.

  40. Senecagriggs says:

    And by the way; did you vote for Bill Clinton over H. Bush? If so, don’t you dare suggest the personal morality of your presidential choice is very important.

  41. Kevin H says:

    Senecagriggs,

    You have seemingly completely missed the point of the article. It has absolutely nothing to do with whom one has voted for in past elections.

  42. Kevin H says:

    And for your satisfaction, no, I did not vote for Clinton over H.W. Bush, as I was too young to vote then. And even if I could have voted, it would have been for Bush. But once more, this article has nothing to do with this, so I will not engage further on it.

  43. richard says:

    to say that your article was about the christian nationalists and not about bashing Trump, i find very humorous, as the majority of your piece did nothing but say how bad he is. disingenuous if you ask me.

    i was surprised you didn’t call those christians who may vote for Trump “deplorable” ala Hillary Clinton.

    I agree wholeheartedly that christian nationalism is not a good thing, as the kingdom of God is not of this world. But to say that all of his christian supporters idolize him ala an anti-christ is flat out wrong. to say that trump didn’t accomplish anything during his presidency is wrong. you could of made your article about Julie Green and the likes and how they seem to idolize trump, but you didn’t. When i mentioned just one of Trump’s accomplishments, and how christians may look at it as a good thing, i was told i missed the point. You said the piece wasn’t about policy or direction, but about christians baptizing a heathen, but you sure spent a lot of words on the heathen and few on the anti-christ following christians.

    some said he wants to abolish the constitution, but he appointed 3 strict constitutionalists to SCOTUS. some want to point out that he lost the last election by over 6 million votes, but fail to mention that it’s only about 4-1/2% of the vote, in spite of a vast majority of the press vehemently against him, even printing and speaking lies about what he said or supports. and to the one who said they’ve never heard a democrat suggest an abortion, I have to wonder where you’ve been listening. As to stand your ground….don’t own a gun….and i firmly believe that it’s our prayers that keep evil at bay, and I continue to ask for that deliverance daily.

    i agree with Alan, that this is a political post that claims not to be. repent on move on.

    list what each supports and hopes to accomplish and vote accordingly….and not voting is not a good thing…

  44. Kevin H says:

    “But to say that all of his christian supporters idolize him ala an anti-christ is flat out wrong. to say that trump didn’t accomplish anything during his presidency is wrong.”

    And please show me where I said anything at all like this…. you won’t be able to because it’s not there.

    The difficulty here is that you continuing reading into my article all kinds of things I haven’t said and this causes you to continue to miss the point.

    I have nothing to repent of. However, you may want to revisit your accusations of me which have no proof to support them, and consider what you should do.

  45. richard says:

    sorry Kevin…you’re right……you didn’t say “all”, and you didn’t say trumps presidency accomplished nothing.

    but it is a trump hit piece…..you spent much more time lambasting him than those you claim the article was about.

  46. Michael says:

    Richard,

    I appreciate you commenting as I have always found you to be an eminently reasonable person.

    I have no issue with Trump hit pieces…I don’t think one can state enough that Trump is one of the more wicked men to ever disgrace the American landscape.

    Logic assumes that one must state these things in order to understand why Christians continue to view him as a godly man and pretend that he is interested in the things of God.

    This support and projection of him as a believer does immense damage to the witness of the church.

    I appreciate your honesty in regard to his character and respect your choice to vote for him based on the issues he claims he cares about.

    For me, the ongoing damage to the witness of the church is more important than policy…the beast will feed no matter if it is the left or right hand.

  47. richard says:

    thank you Michael…..i’m still here, appreciate your efforts, praying for better health and blessings upon you and yours.

  48. Michael says:

    Thank you, Richard…I appreciate your presence and the prayers…

  49. Kevin H says:

    Richard,

    You are right that I said much bad about Trump. Yet, if you follow my article all the way through, you can see that Trump was not my main focal point. However, it was necessary to establish Trump’s excessive depravity in order to make the main point.

    And the heart of the matter is the way many in the church have made Trump out to be a Savior of sorts despite his very depraved behaviors and actions. They have more or less pledged their undying loyalty to him, ignore, justify, or even celebrate his corrupt and sinful actions, and only care about the evil they decry on the other side, whom Trump has vowed to fight for them. This is what makes this an antichrist situation.

    My “lambasting” of Trump was done so only to make my main point – to call these portions of the church, who are part of my own church family, to repentance and exhort them to turn back to God.

    My writing had nothing to do with policy or for whom one voted, nor was the heart of the matter to do with Trump, but rather it was with the church.

  50. Alan says:

    The implication of every post of this kind is that anyone who voted for Trump is participating in these theologically heretical narratives. Which is not true.

    Meanwhile these posts tend to ignore the totalitarian and anti-human tendencies of the opposite party.

    Sorry these alternatives are antichrist to the core. There is no alternative that allows us to vote kingdom values.

    This just gives more space to rant against evangelicals whom you reckon to have damaged either yourselves or others. That is the real point.

    The church is involved either way — basically the entire span of church alternatives is stained.

    More reformation/repentance is constantly needed.

  51. Michael says:

    Alan,

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but Trump and the resultant rise of Christian nationalism are imbedded in the church in a way that the anti-Christ narratives of the extreme left are not.

    Thinking more about that, there are churches that have adopted leftist objectives and they are failing miserably and their futures look bleak.

    If those dogmas were succeeding, there would be something to write about…indeed we who love the church would have a responsibility to write about them.

    The only place that heretical values are taking hold successfully is in evangelical circles.

    You always talk about totalitarianism on the left and there is more than a little truth to that…I live in Oregon and see it firsthand.

    Trump wanted to be the true totalitarian and overturn his defeat while defying the constitution…I have yet to understand why that has not terrified both sides of the divide…

  52. Kevin H says:

    Alan,

    The opposite party most certainly has totalitarian, anti-human, and antichrist characteristics. I can only speak for myself, although I suspect Michael is similar in mind, but here is why I choose to spend far more time addressing the same characteristics on the conservative side of things:

    – Conservatives (theologically and politically) have always been and continue to be much more of my family in the the family of Christ than those who are more liberal oriented.

    – The participators and readership here are comprised much more of those who are theologically conservative and I would venture to say politically conservative, too. (For example, if I were to write an article about the authoritativeness of the Bible or of the evils of abortion, there would be much agreement and little pushback.)

    – The conflation of politics with the church has been far more prevalent, stronger, and effective, especially these last several years, with conservative Christians and churches than with liberal ones. As noted by Michael above, those churches that have adopted leftist objectives have been in significant decline for a long time now and their futures do look bleak. However, on the conservative side of things, embracement of conservative politics in many circles has been a rallying cry and a successful church growth strategy.

    My main concern is for the welfare of the church and its faithfulness in living out and representing the Kingdom of God, and not with earthly political factions and categories. The segment of the church that I consider my closest family has been infected with a serious illness that has gained great momentum these last several years. Thus, this directs my focus and energies.

  53. Kevin H says:

    And no, the implication is not that anybody who voted for Trump is guilty of these things. I always try to take pains to speak of “some” or “many” but avoid the use of “all” or “always”.

  54. Alan says:

    Michael

    If we go back to Bush/Gore no one accepts the results of the elections and the security state clearly did not accept the last election. The banana should be on our flag. Trump’s attempt was clownish and not terrifying but results vary.

  55. Alan says:

    Kevin

    So we all get to clarity out positions.

    🤷🏻‍♂️ Still Dread

  56. Michael says:

    Alan,

    I have to assume you’re being intentionally disingenuous here because you’re far too intelligent than to compare the brief kerfuffle of Bush/Gore to a defeated President trying to get the vice-president to overturn an election and creating an atmosphere in which now upwards of 40% of the electorate believe the election was stolen.

    Nothing will destroy a democracy faster than making people believe that their vote is pointless.

    He lost, he lied about it, and may have accelerated the decline of the country a hundred fold.

  57. Duane Arnold says:

    I have resisted commenting on this thread. I do not see the issue as being primarily spiritual or theological. Rather I see this as an ethical question. Do we employ ungodly means to achieve godly ends? On both sides of the divide we have failed in the ethical question. We have chosen to believe that the end justifies the means. While such an approach might find the approval of Jeremy Bentham or Nikolai Machiavelli, we find it nowhere in the gospels. In adopting a secular framework and essentially baptizing the values that undergird it, we have brought shame to our Christian witness.

  58. Alan says:

    Michael

    I think the Christian Nationalist narratives are a colossal failure and the departures from the church are profound among the young.

    I do see among many with whom I have commonality a constant attempt to revive some acceptable version of quasi-nationalism but it will be opposed by God himself. I think! Been wrong before.

    Mike Bickle is on a grandiose radical Israel-centric nationalism. He had 5 million people fast and pray for Israel 21 days and claims that it shifted history.

    He’s determined that Israel (not Christ) will be at the center of millennialist expectations.

    He claims to be historic premil with Israel focused millennial reign. Antichrist will arise and persecute those who align with Israel and Christ will come post millennial and fulfill the land covenant with Israel. If I can understand him. He drowns you in words to make a five minute point.

    Lots of American CN has its’ roots in that stuff. And all of it is a redo of Israel-Exodus narration. Again IMO

  59. Alan says:

    Michael

    My point was simple. Americans no longer trust our election results. Trump only continued it.

  60. Alan says:

    Let it be noted that on Juneteenth I agreed with Duane.

    We are drowning in moral and ethical depravity.

  61. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I tend to conflate the ethical and the spiritual…but your point is well taken.

  62. Duane Arnold says:

    I might add that if this were just a matter of people acting unethically or immorally it would be bad. It is, however, far worse than that. The Church has abandoned any ethical standard as well as becoming amoral. That is, there is no longer a moral or ethical standard to be observed… This is the idolatry of the self taken to a whole new level.

  63. filistine says:

    An earlier poster suggested being centrist is why Dole, McCain, and Romney all lost elections. Perhaps the dots ought not be connected in this manner as more likely reasons exist–Dole ran against a strong economy under Clinton (and his running mate was weak), McCain chose a drag anchor as a running mate, and Romney suffered from the wet-toilet paper support of evangelicals who couldn’t get past his Mormon faith. Being centrist isn’t the Dementor kiss of death, or at least it didn’t used to be. IMNSHO, it is the only way forward for our republic.

  64. filistine says:

    I also would state anti-Christ is not the same as THE Anti-Christ. Terminology matters in issues of theology and politics, etc. The former is an adjective, the latter a proper noun. The first describes a person, place, thing or idea while the second is that person. Perhaps I’m stating the obvious.

    perhaps not.

  65. Michael says:

    Well said fil…

  66. Alan says:

    The Antichrist in the Johannine literature does not envision the use it has acquired in most of our literature. Antichrist is the spirit that becomes an alternative christ not a world leader who opposes Israel.

  67. Michael says:

    Theologically, I would say that anti-Christ is any spirit or person who rises in opposition to Christ and the ways of God. Trump is a picture of one who has co-opted the people of God and becomes a Savior figure…

  68. filistine says:

    Michael–is that on Trump as a role he took or the fault of those who followed him as such? I never saw DT as sophisticated enough to warrant the support and adulation; but perhaps many believers were desperate enough to sign on.

    perhaps those are shades more similar than different.

  69. Michael says:

    fil,

    Great question. I think it’s both. No one will ever go broke underestimating the gullibility of many evangelicals. I get daily updates on the latest “prophetic” belches that thousands, maybe millions accept as words from God.

    Trump has the keen instincts of a predator as do those around him…the sheep were an easy mark…

  70. Alan says:

    Hahaha … I love you Michael … always Trump seducing and scarifying the elect.

  71. Michael says:

    Again, let’s separate policy from person. I have no doubt that many voted for him because they embraced his policies.

    I’m only addressing the church aspect of this…there has been no other politician in my lifetime where people were declaring the anointing of God on him years after his defeat and in the face of felony charges.

    Why is it important to mark him out?

    Because worse than him are coming…

  72. Alan says:

    Indeed… worse than him are upon us

  73. Alan says:

    Worse than Trump have been many times. Salvation by government is always tyranny and antichrist. Salvation by the powers is always hell on earth.

    The Catholic church has been deceived the Orthodox too (and is being) the Church of England has a bloody antichrist history, the Lutherans have blood on their doorsteps. The Puritans ceased to be because of their oppression, Baptists have slavery to contend with … the list goes on. Today’s babylonian evangelicals are the lates iteration to whore themselves out.

    Meanwhile the LORD knows those that are his. Blessed be the name of the LORD.

  74. Michael says:

    Alan,

    I agree…but how do we address this without people thinking you’re simple attacking a political position. Why can’t the people of God recognize the voice of the serpent? I’m not just speaking of Trump, but of the plethora of false prophets grifting among us?

  75. filistine says:

    those are much better questions than mine. 🙂

  76. Officerhoppy says:

    I have a close friend and former Oregon Senator and member of the House of Representatives.

    He ran for congress. He’s a Republican.

    I pressed him, saying, “we need some one who will at least reach across the aisle. A centrist”

    His response caught me off guard. He said, “I could never get elected if I did that”

    This country and the constitution were based on compromise. But now days, you either tow the party line or your out.

  77. Michael says:

    Officerhoppy,

    If he’s a local, a centrist willing to compromise would never get past Perry A….

  78. Alan says:

    Michael,

    That is a better question.

    Perhaps if some semblance of taking those you disagree with seriously might help.

    Why are they holding to these positions? Are they as tacitly ignorant as lampooned? Some of course are. But many serious believers simply feel they have nowhere to stand and must bear the stench of these political bedfellows.

    Christian nationalism has taken many forms since Constantine. “In hoc signo vinces”

    We must take it seriously and not simply heap scorn upon those gripped by it.

  79. Michael says:

    “Perhaps if some semblance of taking those you disagree with seriously might help.’

    I have tried to do so, but have evidently, not tried hard enough or well enough.
    I shall try to do better…many of these folks are or were friends…and I share many of their concerns.

  80. Officerhoppy says:

    Michael
    Ironically, the person I was referring to is Perry’s son

  81. Duane Arnold says:

    Until evangelicals relinquish their desire for power, there is no solution. To relinquish the desire for power also means returning to biblical norms in terms of ethics and morality within the confines of the church. In the current climate, this appears to be an impossibility…

  82. Em says:

    Dr. Duane…. food for thought

  83. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I concur…but you know that… 🙂

  84. Officerhoppy says:

    I’m an evangelical who doesn’t want the responsibility of power. Besides, everyone, most, are on a quest for power, not just evangelicals.

    Nietzsche, believed that the desire for power is the main driving force in humans – namely, achievement, ambition, and the striving to reach the highest possible position in life.

    I tend to agree with him on this issue.

  85. Michael says:

    Officerhoppy,

    Interesting…the Christian ethic is to die to self in order to have more of Him…totally opposite ethic…

  86. richard says:

    reading Matthew 20:20-28, one sees that James and John, even after walking with Jesus for 3 years, desired power, authority, a place of honor. only after getting together for prayer and worship, and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, did they seem to get Jesus’s words about serving and putting oneself last. Ambition is spoken of as a good thing (1 Tim. 3:1) at least in regards to being a church overseer. But humility and servanthood are a big part of authority (Moses).

    perhaps all christians would do well to seek the Holy Spirit earnestly, or at least get together for prayer and worship and see what happens.

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