The Dirt Gets Deeper

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120 Responses

  1. Dude says:

    I have a steam cleaner and a power washer if you need it.

  2. Just for the record, the captain’s last name is not Walding.

    Careful with that wire brush and Drano, Michael. You should leave at least one layer of skin.

  3. Reminds me of some of the ODM’s. And, why, in the name of all that is English, do these people think they need to write novels to get their point across? The school teacher in me just couldn’t get past all the spelling and grammar errors in the first couple paragraphs to even want to read the rest.

  4. Paige says:

    OMG, really? Aside from the insanity, it’s really quite pitiful. I can hear music from ‘the world’s smallest violin” playing.

  5. erunner says:

    Do Brian and Cheryl qualify as two witnesses?? Add Chuck Jr. and that’s three witnesses. Or does Chuck Jr. not count as he’s a tare among the wheat?? I think I might explode if I knew all of the garbage going on behind the scenes. This is turning into Peyton Place. Satan must be doing a happy dance about now. Sad…………..

  6. I don’t get the big – some guy writes an email and sends it to a bunch of CC’s (anyone can scape email addresses off the internet) and he is treated here as one who has standing to even speak to the issue at hand.

    Michael, you are giving notoriety to someone who should not be getting it.

    His exposition of scripture is terrible – his spelling and grammar even worse. So Micheal, what caught your attention to deem this as a worthy publication?

  7. victorious says:

    CK . I am not a teacher but I almost posted something similar in regards to Mr.Waldings deficiencies in English grammar and basic spelling skills. All the more ridiculous in the days of word processors and readily available spelling and grammar checkers.

    The man can half quote and attempt to duct tape together Bible verses in an effort to achieve coherence. However, he is also lacking in his capacities to rightly divide and apply truth at the most basic level.

    And to top it off neither this man nor Miss Manderson’s Newport Beach attorneys can spell “Brodersen” correctly.

  8. Michael says:


    I don’t go looking for this crap, it comes to me.
    In this case my phone was overheating all day long with texts and calls about this…from some folks who felt it was important.
    For reasons I don’t yet understand, this story is hitting the pews in a way that most of the scandals don’t.
    The other factor that people don’t understand is that there are many…and I do mean many… CC pastors who are supporting this campaign and believe every dirty word of it.

    I am supposed to go on blood pressure meds tomorrow…thank God.

  9. Why does anyone care who supports who? Both sides are probably wrong and some CC guy in Indiana showing support for one side or the other won’t change a thing.

    With all your email, phone and internet activity, no one told you who this guy is?

  10. “I am supposed to go on blood pressure meds tomorrow‚Ķthank God.”

    I just went back on my cholesterol medication on Monday … it’s part of the curse – as is the Smith family situation.

  11. Kevin H says:

    It ain’t this Kevin either. Note the H, not a W. This does seem very ODMish in its writing and rationale. Wouldn’t be surprised if this guy is a Bryson disciple. And then to try to discredit Chuck Jr. in this circumstance based on his beliefs on homosexuality is a load of you know what.

  12. Michael says:


    The issue for many is not who is right or wrong in this lawsuit, but how the hell they can get rid of Brian Brodersen.
    That’s the back story…and this is the last narrative that can make it happen.

    I could have done the research and found out more about Mr. Wadling…but someone wanted to go skateboarding and talk about a book he actually wanted to read.

    I chose to put off the research…

  13. victorious says:

    From ” The Least of These” #17 on the prior post.

    “What tears at me is the very real issue of whether or not the dissemination of the Gospel message by a figurehead is a protected intellectual property that can and SHOULD be monetized.”

    Interesting that the only party who acted in any entrepreneurial capacity ( other than Chuck Sr.signature ) to proactively monetize messages in the name of ministry is Paul Smith going back to 1978. Looks like Jeff came along later to manage what was begun by his Uncle.

    Maybe Chuck Sr. really was that simple in motive and manipulated by a sibling, maybe ignoring warning signs because he was a man of faith and grace?

    Funny that others held jn high esteem and mentored by Paul have themselves aggressively adopted the monetizing of messages; adding to it the marketing of the man as a platform and person of power.

    Oh , how a board of elders can infest the waters of opportunity . ūüôā

  14. Michael says:


    It’s not my concern what is or is not reported on other blogs.
    That’s not a road I’m going down.

  15. Andrew says:

    “And then to try to discredit Chuck Jr. in this circumstance based on his beliefs on homosexuality is a load of you know what.”

    Chuck jr. did discredit himself as a pastor. Regarding the family dispute and sibling rivalry I don’t know, but regarding a pastor, he is not qualified.

  16. covered says:

    Does anyone here know who this Walding is? He looks like a type of Bryson with less undertanding of God’s word if that’s possible.

  17. brian says:

    I know I swim at the very shallow end of the spiritual pool near the sewage pipe but I still dont get the whole suing fellow believers thing, it seems the Bible is quite clear on that. I am sure I am not exegeting the scriptures correctly though.

  18. Michael says:


    I don’t know anything more about him than he says about himself.
    The issue to me is that he is getting more than a little traction.

  19. Linda Pappas says:

    What does it matter who Mr. Walding may be. And what does it matter if his grammar is not perfect. It doesn’t. Not one bit, except if he is in the wrong camp. That is, if he is or is not in the camp that a person has chosen. And really, is this the issue—-No, not at all, not when it comes down to what is it the written word.

    He was rambling and he was attacking anyone. But he did take the time to write what was on his heart and in this, it needs to be respected even though you may or may not agree with what he shared. I think the question that each person needs to ask is where, you agree and where you don’t agree.

    As for me, I think he did a fine job in using God’s Word to balanced out his position, as well as, taking everyone to task in CC over many things that have been left unaddressed, This court thing is just a small drop in the bucket. Yet, could very well be the instrument being used of the Lord to open wide the eyes of those who cannot hear or see.

    Thank you, Mr. Walding, where ever and whoever you may be. I know writing such a letter was not easy for you to do. But needed to be written, just the same.

  20. Xenia says:

    While not speaking to this story in particular, this is how I have heard Christians justify suing another Christian. They say that since the other party is behaving so badly, they must not be Christians so this rule does not apply. Doesn’t matter that they have all been skating on the edges of antinomianism their entire lives and have preached OSAS. Based on behavior one party decides it’s OK to the sue the other because they are obviously not (or not longer) a Christian.

  21. Linda Pappas says:

    Correction: “He was NOT rambling, nor was he attacking anyone.” @ 21

    I am not saying that I agree with all that he wrote. Just saying, he is as much a brother in Christ as any other and in this, even though we may not agree with him, it would be much wiser and prudent to listen and then take what is true and apply it appropriately.

  22. Michael says:

    The only camp anyone should be in is is the one that is telling the truth.
    What this lawsuit has done is to indict a person for manslaughter without offering a shred of evidence…indeed all the evidence is that this caregiver did exactly what medical ethics requires.
    If the Smith clan wanted to brawl over money that’s one thing…to accuse someone of evil without evidence is another.

  23. Michael says:

    I would also remind the readers that Brian Brodersen didn’t have to do anything…Chuck Smith had already given him the ministry.
    In the weeks before Smith’s death he was under incredible pressure from this same part of the family to buy off Brodersen and send him packing.
    He refused.

  24. Linda Pappas says:

    I disagree with your statement @ 24, Michael. I think we need to be more objective and let the courts decide this.

    I agree with Walding in also saying, that it is too bad that this process was not put in place a long time ago, whereas, leadership are the only voices heard in the congregation, thus the much larger body of the church have one other alternative to seek a just and fair resolution.

  25. Whether Brodersen loses his job is of no consequence. He is Mike Brown following Phil Jackson. Mike Brown had his distractors from day one … the distractors won – no harm no foul as they say.

  26. Michael says:


    I first heard this rumor months ago.
    I immediately went to people who are caregivers and nurses to find out what the procedures and laws are concerning people who are on hospice and have agreed to a DNR.
    What Chuck Jr. described the day after his father died…and he was there when he died…fits those procedures to a t.
    They better be able to prove otherwise or another innocent person was been sacrificed for big church cash.

  27. Michael says:

    Furthermore, if the caregiver was negligent, this is a criminal matter and the caregiver faces criminal penalties and the loss of her professional license.

  28. bevann48 says:

    It is the job of the Trustee/Executor to protect the Trust. The Smith Trust is fortunate that their Trustee/family member is an attorney/ In this instance it is a family member who is an attorney. The defense of the Trust and it’s integrity is an important part of what her responsibilities. Any breach or damage of the Trust must be taken to the courts. Any Trustee would pursue a similar suit for the Smith Trust. It may not be as dramatic or as much of a soap opera, but a petition would be filed by any Trustee. I don’t believe the Church supersedes the Trust.

  29. Michael says:

    Be aware as well that Smith Manderson was the owner of the CC affiliated Inspire Travel (which she sold to Don McClures son) and Jeff Smiths involvement with all the radio stations and CSN has been duly documented.
    I wish my “papa” had set me up as well…

  30. bevann48 says:

    drat…sorry i didn’t check the grammar. I know some of you are sticklers. I am new and a little nervous. My point is that outside of the family/spiritual drama is the legal structure of Trusts and the requirements of Trusts and Executors. California Probate Law has a lot to say about the need for the Executor to defend the Trust. Elder Financial Abuse is well defined in California. The complaint could lean in that direction based on Smith’s age and health status.

  31. covered says:

    Linda, isn’t the truth far more important than the opinion of someone who doesn’t have a dog in the hunt? Before you anoint this guy with oil, aren’t you curious as to why he thinks his opinion matters?

    We are watching this family who whether you like it or not, is loved by God and is being torn to pieces by their greed. Our role should be to pray for restoration not fuel the fire. Tell me how this guys opinion will in any way help with the healing and reconciliation? It seems to me that all Walding is doing is being divisive in an already volatile situation.

  32. Michael says:


    Don’t be nervous…we’re not as mean as we seem. ūüôā

  33. My point is, does the world really need Calvary Chapel? I mean if it collapsed tomorrow who cares – there are other churches and ministries.

    Anyone here on this Oct 1 2014 miss Enron? In 2001, Enron, once valued at $90 billion and the 7th largest company in the United States, went bankrupt. Poof, gone, life carries on.

  34. victorious says:

    MLD. You have no idea about the Calvary Chapel invested in foreign missions of which Brodersen plays a big role in leading in concert with others. He is not going away until it is his appointed time to meet Jesus.

    Chuck went along for the ride in missions. Brodersen has a hands on and heart involved investment.

  35. bevann48 says:

    The Trust is a private family matter that is decided by members to make things understood as to the desires of the main participants, Chuck and Kay Smith. It isn’t a public or congregational matter. It is what their family wants to do with what they have created in their personal wealth which includes their Intellectual property. It isn’t an issue to be resolved in a congregational manner, just as your inheritance or mine should be resolved in our homefellowships.

  36. brian says:

    My father’s doctor was a quack and forgot to do some very needed tests, this lead to the incident that lead to my fathers death. From the church family I was in, lawsuit was almost the first work that was spoken. My mother and me wondered what my father would have wanted and decided not to do so. We did report the incident and it lead to an investigation which lead to other facts being found out and the dr losing his license. We felt that any lawsuit will drag on and it was better to move on even though getting some money out of it would have helped but we measured the health of the family and my fathers memory.

    This is another reason the entire lot of me and mine have to be unregenerate.

  37. Gee if MLD went away…who cares…

  38. brian says:

    MLD the Enron situation did have a massive effect on a lot of small investors and families who lost everything, that does nor should it ever mean anything in the little or big picture because those are bodies under the bus. Yes the world moved on, just like the world will move on until the Sun goes nova many billions of years from now. But for the individuals involved in the CC or Enron situation their individual worlds did stop, were turned on their head. Badly worded but it is a matter of perspective. Maybe thats your point.

  39. david,
    “Gee if MLD went away‚Ķwho cares‚Ķ”

    Exactly – so why wring our hands over a Smith family matter?

    There used to be Edsels and DeLorens – what does it matter if someone says “yeah, there used to be a Calvary Chapel.”

  40. brian – OK, we will keep CC going at all costs so people won’t be hurt. The American mantra – “we don’t want pain – even if it is right.’.”

  41. covered says:

    victorious, your #37 is exactly how it is.

    David- If MLD weren’t here it would be a big deal. I can’t imagine this place without MLD lighting us all up ūüôā

  42. Xenia says:

    I imagine this all is very sad news for the sincere Calvary Chapel folk who supported entities like TWfT, naively believing they were participating in what they thought were ministries when in fact, they were money-making businesses which served to build up the wealth of the Smith family. This must come as a shock to many. They must be dumbfounded to realize that the sermons they heard every week were commodities that are now being fought over like a pack of dogs over a bone.

    I think this is why people are upset. When there’s a rogue pastor somewhere else, people can say, My pastor is not like that. But when one discovers that all the tapes, books, sermons, radio shows- the whole CC enchilada- were nothing more than businesses- this makes them feel like chumps.

    (I am not saying that these businesses were without spiritual value, by the way.)

  43. victorious says:

    MLD you should know better.

    There are many who have said who cares if there is an LCMS. Jesus executed an executive override and has chosen to preserve and promote His investment in the LCMS by preserving some servants within that tribe and raising up others outside and sending them in.

    Same deal for Calvary whether it retains the recognized name before men or not.

  44. brian says:

    MLD you miss the point, I was agreeing with you, please see the last sentence.

  45. The Pope is probably the most influential, if not the most powerful Christian in the world. If someone caught him with his pants down peeing in the Holy water, he would be out on his ear the next day.

    How much of the Church would he take with him? Probably just his 401K. How much of his estate do we think is tied up with the Church? Probably zero – why do we think that people need to sue CC to claim part of Chuck’s estate?

  46. Can you imagine the Pope claiming Intellectual Property as his own?

  47. Vic, when I speak of Calvary Chapel I am speaking of the one in Costa Mesa. Isn’t that the only one in play right now?

    Is the family suing the whole CC system?

  48. The Least of These says:

    @ Victorious

    All this Papa Chuck stuff that he was just grace filled, simple and honest without guile is part of the mythology. He had a good side, and he was loving and kind to many, and God used him. And he had another highly flawed human side. He erred, and he made decisions that were questionable at best, and at worst…well I just won’t go there even though I could. Suffice it to say this squabble is about money (and power), and that it is not a new issue in this camp, and that in Chuck’s lifetime this issue reared it’s head again and again and it was repeated ad nauseum. Nothing about this new debacle surprises me other than the fierce defensiveness being shown in support of people who posted on their own “new” TWFT Inc. webpage called ChucklovesKay a donations page in case you want to just start giving them money now… go ahead… put it on your credit card… for the legacy… for Kay…

  49. brian says:

    “Can you imagine the Pope claiming Intellectual Property as his own?”

    No I cant even imagine he would even think that way. Another reason he has to be the anti Christ.

  50. DavidM says:

    This is all sickening to me. Chuck Sr. was so desperately ill. It was his time to go. His eldest son and others were there with him at the time of his passing. Death is never neat and tidy: it is DEATH, after all. What is the point of suing over what could have been done differently?? What an absolute shame.

    And this Kevin Walding, he seems like a self-serving pompous ass. So he spoke with some of us pastors at the conference: so what? Does that give him some sort of credibility?

    To the “plaintiffs”, let the man rest in peace and get on with your lives. Be useful for the kingdom of God.

  51. The stuff on the post that follows “Here is the second;
    Who is the source?
    Is this part of the stuff from this Kevin Walding fellow?

  52. brian says:

    “To the ‚Äúplaintiffs‚ÄĚ, let the man rest in peace and get on with your lives. Be useful for the kingdom of God.”

    Yes David that seems good advice, I know I have tried to live like that. Again another reason I am unregenerate. What a very strange religion.

  53. Linda Pappas says:

    Covered @34

    As I read through Mr. Walding’s writing, I didn’t see anything in what he wrote to be as you phrased “fueling the fire.” What I read was an opinion by a man who appears to love family and CC and would like to have seen this worked out in another way, rather than going to court, yet at the same time shared his own perspective on what he, given what he knows to be true.

    It would seem to me that many of the comments made here are “adding fuel to fire.” Again, this letter or email sent, as far as I am concerned was his right to do so, just as it is the petitioners of this suit to do so. Just as it is every person’s right to express their own opinion on this. Adding to fuel to the fire, I would guess you may mean that he may win people over in supporting the petitioners in going forth with this suit. Well, I hope people do support them, just as much as anyone else might need the support when they have gone the length with the leadership and board whom they feel an aught has been committed, but have been basically, felt that they have been stonewalled and thrown under the bus.

    As for having a dog in this—-are you serious. What kind of talk is that. May truth rise to exposed that which have yet to be known among everyone except for those who are named in this suit.

    To whoever stated this is strictly a family affair—could have been, but not really, seeing how it is not entirely blood being involved, now is it.

  54. Linda Pappas says:

    @ 30 Exactly!!

    And this is probably why they made her in charge of the trust, knowing she would do whatever it took to see to it that it was protected and sustained.

  55. Linda Pappas says:

    Michael, was this caregiver a license provider or just a friend who provided care.

    I used to work with homebound patients, including the hospice team, as a medical social worker (for about 15 years). It’s not uncommon to have a friend, or paid unlicensed caregiver stay in the home. As a terminal patient, hospice is not always involved and if they are only as much as the family and patient wants them to be. Most of the time a designated caregiver and relief workers would be there 24/7, but the hospice would only drop in 1-3 times a week, depending on the situation, to check the vitals and to make sure the patient was being turned and to adjust the meds as needed, if used. The Hospice team at the beginning would spend a great deal of time teaching the family and caregiver how to care for the patients personal needs. They would then back off and basically provide intermittent care as needed or that is warranted. 24 hour license care is extremely expensive and most of the care can be taught to any person without any type of nursing skills.

  56. I must say that I went over to the chuckloveskay website and came to some pretty firm conclusions. Number 1, I now see why we have laws against inbreeding.

  57. Kevin H says:

    Back to Andrew at #16:

    “Chuck jr. did discredit himself as a pastor. Regarding the family dispute and sibling rivalry I don‚Äôt know, but regarding a pastor, he is not qualified.”

    Exactly the point. This is a “family dispute”, or more broadly a church dispute in some respects. It has nothing to do with Chuck Jr.’s standing as a pastor. And so when the author of these emails tries to discredit Chuck Jr. by attacking him on his views of homosexuality, it is a fallacious ad hominen attack.

    And speaking of adding fuel to the fire, this ad hominen attack without a doubt is an unrighteous fueling of the fire. Whether or not one believes the first email was the right thing to do and/or was a fueling of the fire, the second email was most certainly in the wrong.

    It would be akin to me deciding that Jerry Lee Lewis’ music is evil and then saying that anything that Michael writes about Calvary Chapel or Chuck Smith should be discredited because he loves Jerry Lee Lewis.

  58. well as long as they don’t allow membership then they have absolutely no authority to discipline anyone!!!

  59. By the way, what is his views on homosexuality? I have never heard this stuff before!

  60. sorry what are….lol

  61. Captain Kevin says:

    Walding lives in north San Diego county, where Bryson is from. He has an associates degree in PE. Hence the problems with both exegesis and spelling.
    #tongueincheek. #maybe

  62. Tobias says:

    If you can’t write, spell, or use punctuation properly, at least get someone to proof read! I stop reading at the first misspelling……

  63. Kevin H says:


    I wouldn’t know Chuck Jr.’s views on homosexuality as they are irrelevant to the matter at hand. I haven’t taken the time to try to find out. I didn’t even watch the video that was linked to in the second email from this Kevin Walding guy. But since Chuck Jr. is seemingly more liberal in his theology and methodology than most within Calvary Chapel, and by the fact that this video was posted to discredit him, I would imagine his views are more accepting of homosexuality to some degree than most who are theologically conservative.

  64. Kevin H says:

    Oh, and nate, welcome to the Phoenix Preacher. I don’t recall seeing you before. If you have posted before, my apologies for mistaking you for a newcomer.

  65. Lurkie Loo says:

    “…the Word for today was to be turned over to them to mange…” That needs a spew alert!

  66. Xenia says:

    I’d drop the grammar criticisms. Our own blog host omitted three apostrophes in his LINKS! article.

  67. Xenia says:

    For high blood pressure and other issues I recommend the DASH diet.

  68. erunner says:

    Xenia, Thanks for the DASH link. I go through a lot of bananas as I use them primarily in my fruit smoothies. I’ve been surprised lately as my blood pressure has been lower than it has ever been. I’m going to speak with my doctor about this.

  69. Muff Potter says:

    Kevin H wrote @ # 66 :

    I wouldn’t know Chuck Jr.’s views on homosexuality as they are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

    And that’s precisely the point in those circles. Homosexuality is a front and center focal point and a virtual litmus for everything, almost to the exclusion of all else. If you asked them to consider using their clout to get the Glass-Steagall act reinstated rather than a gay marriage amendment, you’d probably get a blank stare and a: What does that have to do with anything? look.

  70. Xenia says:

    Hi erunner, this is the diet our family doctor recommend for us. Low carb but not extremely so, lots of veggies and fruits, low-fat dairy and lean meat. No junk food, white flour, soda pop or sugary stuff. Very easy to follow with great results. Many people have cured their type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure (and lost weight in the process) and lowered their cholesterol by following this very reasonable, non-fad diet regimen.

    Lean meat and low-fat dairy in moderation
    Lots of vegetables
    Plenty of fruit
    Beans and whole grains in moderation

    No white flour, easy on the potatoes
    No sugar and other processed junk
    No McDonald’s

    Moderate fat intake (It’s not a fat-free diet plan, which is why people can stick to it)

    (But all in moderation. Eat birthday cake, for example.)

  71. erunner says:

    Xenia, I’ll be honest in saying I feel like an addict at times when it comes to sweets such as mexican sweet bread, donuts, brownies, and cookies. It’s caused me to gain back 15 of the 45 pounds I lost and kept off for 18 months. If there’s something that suppresses the cravings I have I would love to know about it as I’ve yet to find it. You are such a wealth of knowledge!! Have a great day!! ūüôā

  72. mike says:

    This series of articles doesn’t match your purpose of exposing corruption and abuse in the ministry of CC.
    Please end the gossip regardless of your feelings for either side. It’s beneath you and those who comment here.

  73. Don’t worry about weight, diets, high blood pressure or who is suing who.

    Remember – tomorrow is the rapture – see you in the air! ūüėČ

  74. Anne says:

    mike – if this series of articles doesn’t illustrate the core issues of abuse & corruption that have existed and still remain in CC’s DNA, as well as human hearts that occurs way too often at the passing of a wealthy patriarch, I have no clue what your criteria could possibly be ūüôĀ

  75. Captain Kevin says:

    Mike: Exposing corruption and abuse…

    I’m guessing you haven’t been around here much lately.

  76. erunner says:

    MLD, I went that route in the late 70’s! Didn’t turn out too well! ūüôā

  77. Xenia says:

    Erunner, I think you will like DASH. You can still enjoy your smoothies. ūüôā

    DASH stands for “Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension.” It is recommended by the Mayo Clinic and various medical associations.

    People who don’t like it are:

    The old-school “zero fat/ high carb” people (Vegans who most eat brown rice and carrots)


    The zero-carb people (Paleo and Atkins, two diets based on bacon fat.) (just kidding)

  78. E, well I guess we all should work on out weight so that we have maximum lift off – ūüôā

  79. randallslack says:

    “In 2001, Enron, once valued at $90 billion and the 7th largest company in the United States, went bankrupt. Poof, gone, life carries on.”

    Kind of callas, MLD. Many people lost their life savings. I personally know a man who is 70 years old and lost all his retirement. At 70 he still has to work as he has nothing.

    Yes life does indeed go on. But it is not as simple as you stated.

  80. Randall – my point is, before I brought it up, when was the last time anyone thought of Enron? So, if CCCM goes away – then one day they too shall just be a faint memory.

    And don’t even get me started on the greedy Enron employees who put ALL their 401K money into Enron company stock to jump on the gravy train … which is a basic financial NO! NO! … so they too must live by their greedy choices and actions. But that’s another point for another day. ūüôā

  81. bevann48 says:

    I just re read the petition to the courts. It looks like the Elder Abuse will be a cornerstone position.. At 66 Chuck Smith qualified for this. The agreements noted were after that age, so I think CCCM’s standing can be challenged based on Elder Abuse.

  82. PP Vet says:

    Gossip gossip gossip.

    You people are so sick.

    This is exactly why I refuse to read the gospel of Matthew. Start off the New Testament by dredging up all the dirt you can find in the Lord’s genealogy, adulteries, whatever??

    This is also why I am looking forward to the Zondervan Gossip-Free version.

    It’s about 10% shorter, but at least we will be able to read the Bible without feeling dirty.

  83. papiaslogia says:

    Wow PP Vet. Who’s that directed to?

    I always knew that CC would come apart sometime after Chucks passing, I just didn’t think that the family would play such a large part in splitting up the real empire.

    I guess that I thought the battle lines would be along groups being “more CC than thou”, but it turns out that money was always in the mix. Not even saying that money was the motivating factor, as I believe that the primary factor was always the work. I guess that after awhile, if the work is successful, the larger it gets the more it needs to be protected?

    I suppose that it should have come as no surprise after Chuck playing a part in suing Kestler, I guess.

  84. PP Vet says:

    Whether or not something is “gossip” has nothing to do with content. If it did, the Bible would be full of gossip, as I pointed out.

    It has to do with the intent with which it is communicated.

  85. PP Vet says:

    To labor the point a bit, the charge that what happens here is “gossip” is reasonable, and calls for rebuttal.

    My impression is that our gracious host surveys the mountain of dirt that comes across his desk and carefully selects for publication that which he deems will “let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke.”

    Not that he always gets it right, but I believe that is his intent in general, and that is why I do not consider it in general “gossip”.

    But I still refer to it loosely as the “Calvary Chapel gossip site”, forgive me. ūüôā

    Like in the scripture, the same word can have a good meaning and a bad meaning.

  86. I think the saying goes, “Hate the gossip – love the gossiper” – or something like that.

  87. erunner says:

    Pastor Steve Mays has passed away today. May God be with his family at this time.

  88. Had he been ill?

  89. Wow, he died while getting scheduled back surgery.

  90. Gretchen Passantino passed away also today

  91. erunner says:

    MLD, it appears he had the surgery on Monday and died from complications.

  92. So was this a church…or a business. All this carrying on makes feel like it was the latter.

  93. I am very happy to HAVE NOT INTEREST whatsoever in this fiasco

  94. Scooter Jones says:

    There was a day when a thread like this would have elicited over 400 comments by now. However, it’s clear that most have been inoculated to this kind of news and don’t really care that much about it anymore, for whatever reason.

    “Dirt” is actually quite useful in our environment, you can grow flowers as well as cover the dead in it.

  95. MLD,

    I was just punning with ya. I actually respect you and like seeing you here.

    Your a seasoned Christian and I do listen to you.

    But you can be acerbic and opinionated…LOL :-0


    Here are some of my current thoughts on this CC thingy:

    Man this thing is making me wonder why such an intelligent man as CS did not leave a clear cut well defined will concerning the family trust etc…


    I would think that he had the foresight to lay down his plans for everything and everyone that would be involved would have been aware of it prior to his graduation to the Kingdom.

    To implicate CS caregiver is so reprehensible to me; especially as she is being used as a pawn to achieve a desired goal.

    Both my mother and my youngest sisters are nurses which makes this current scenario being espoused all the more evil in my eyes.

    I wonder if J.Vernon Magee’s family or Adrian Rogers family feuded? Most likely not since their “extension-of-presence” is alive and well in radio land.

    I do hope that all of this blows over and CS teaching ministry gets it’s extension-of-presence it so rightly deserves.

  96. Linda Pappas says:

    MLD, Gretchen was my friend. I just arrived home and read the news. Thank you for letting us know. Please pray for the family and many friends she had made during a lifetime of serving the Lord and being faithful in all that she was and did.

    Good thoughts though about her being reunited with Dr. Walter Martin and her others in the discernment – apologetic ministries. I can hear them now. Oh, what a welcome there must have been or will be depending on one’s position on soul sleep vs. being home with the Lord.

  97. Potemkin Villager says:

    De-lurking to mention (in relation to #70 and #71), the NIH has a free 56-page booklet on using the DASH diet to lower blood pressure. I’ll link the PDF version. It’s also available for download from their catalog in HTML and a few other formats.

    Not a very dramatic entrance, was it? ūüôā

  98. Steve Wright says:

    Man this thing is making me wonder why such an intelligent man as CS did not leave a clear cut well defined will concerning the family trust etc…
    David, as I said elsewhere, I’ve seen many times the person who left as well defined a will as possible and some heir or potential heir challenged it. That’s America. I would hesitate before blaming Chuck for THIS action.

    I think the jury is still out (no pun intended) on the extent of preparation here. Chuck Jr. has sure indicated there were some arrangements of a legal, contractual nature in force for Kay, which speaks to some preparation. The rabbi’s trust and the royalties from TWFT I certainly believe Chuck Jr.

    And from where I sit, if TWFT is a ministry of CCCM, as has always been advertised as such, then there really was nothing to do on that end. It stays with the church unless specific legal arrangements were made otherwise.

    One thing my years of experience have shown is that the disgruntled heirs that do bring lawsuits typically speak of how the deceased “told” them this was their wishes.

  99. brian says:

    Hey Steve, I swim near the neandertal side of the spiritual gene pool Pastor steve, from what I have seen you have earned that right. So Pastor Steve can you understand some of us that struggle with the faith. I know I come off as a whiner and basically a piece of blank. Offered for what it is worth. You know Pastor Steve I wish I had someone I could have reached out to in my tenure in the industry, but that was not in the cards. I wish you and yours the best and hope your ministry increases.

  100. Andrew says:

    “And from where I sit, if TWFT is a ministry of CCCM, as has always been advertised as such, then there really was nothing to do on that end. It stays with the church unless specific legal arrangements were made otherwise.”

    Steve with Paul Smith listed as the vice president of TWFT and co-founder what are you talking about?

    I’m probably over simplifying. But this does seem like a no brainier to me. Chuck set up distinct corporations. TWFT is not the same as CCCM. Why would Chuck set up separate entities if he meant for them to accomplish the exact same thing? It appears that Paul Smith is the vice president of TWFT from the Chuckloveskay website. If Chuck was the president, I would think the vice president now has a big say in how these assets are distributed and used. There appears that there was also another corporation CCOF that eventually turned into another corporation CCA. It appears that Paul Smith was also part of that separate entity CCOF until he was terminated. And I do believe Broderson had a big part of his removal from that. Regardless of what you think of Roger Oakland, I do believe there is some truth to his narrative as explained here:
    With all these separate corporate entities I am confident Chuck didn’t expect them to be one big entity and the same. But part of me does think Chuck was definitely scheming in trying to create an environment where he could have maximum control with very little responsibility. This mess I believe is a direct result of Chuck passing off the hard and tough questions to those left after he died. That to me is one irresponsible man!

  101. randallslack says:

    MLD, you just sound so callused…

  102. randallslack

    “MLD, you just sound so callused‚Ķ”

    If you think that’s bad, you should hear me when I explain to the unrepentant about the consequence of their choices. ūüėČ

    If calloused means I don’t have my head in the clouds, I plead guilty. I do feel that people would be in a much healthier state if they just accepted their own actions that led to their problems.

    But hey, it’s Friday and I am picking up 3 of my grandkids for the weekend this afternoon – and these kids can do no wrong. ūüôā

  103. PP Vet says:

    Boring people who fall into boring sins (self-righteousness, legalism, religious hypocrisy) get to come here and cluck their tongues over the exciting sins of exciting people.

    Rory Alec: ‚ÄúAfter 20 years of service, I have had a moral failure this year. For this reason, I am stepping down.”

    Cluck cluck.

    But I do love God TV.

  104. PP Vet – but you are the one spreading the dirty laundry. I had never head of the guy – never watched GodTV (don’t even know if my cable carries it) – but now, thanks to your voyeurism into his life, it’s here on my big screen.

    For shame.

  105. erunner says:

    Pedro Buford who was a Pastor at Poiema while we attended has passed away after a long illness. Bill Ketts who was the third Pastor along with Pedro and Oden Fong passed away months ago. They were amazing men with hearts for God. Please keep Pedro’s family in your prayers as well as Oden as he has lost several very close friends this past year.

  106. erunner says:

    re post 100 than you for sharing Mike!! Please de-lurk more often! ūüôā

  107. Potemkin Villager says:

    I don’t have any particular side in this discussion, but the Corporation Wiki page for TWFT has some interesting names. This is a third party site, so I can’t vouch for the accuracy, but I think they just pull information from state records.

  108. erunner says:

    OOPS!! Post 100 should read Potemkin Villager instead of Mike.

  109. Potemkin Villager says:

    No worries, erunner. I hardly recognize my own name. ūüôā

  110. oh my, Pedro Buford, Gretchen Passantino Coburn, Steve Mayes…

    On and on the rain will fall
    Like tears from a star
    Like tears from a star
    On and on the rain will say
    How fragile we are how fragile we are
    How fragile we are how fragile we are…

  111. PP Vet says:

    ” … you are the one spreading the dirty laundry.” Yes MLD that was my point, in a self-deprecating kind of way. I guess that subtlety does not come across online.

    Fortunately Rick Warren just sent me some guidelines on how to avoid moral failure:

    РMake a commitment to keep God’s standards.
    – Maintain your marriage.
    – Manage your mind.
    – Monitor your media intake.
    – Minimize the opportunities for temptation.
    – Magnify the consequences.

    Sounds wise.

    I personally try to follow the “385” (three hundred eighty-five) principle: Never be alone with a woman unless she is over 300 pounds or over 85 years old.

  112. covered says:

    PP, can I cite that rule for when I’m counseling?

  113. randallslack says:

    MLD: “I do feel that people would be in a much healthier state if they just accepted their own actions that led to their problems.”

    So 6 Million Jews caused their own extermination?
    Christ’s “problems” caused Him to be a victim?

    Wow! Really?

  114. Randall – you may wish to pick up a theology book if you think Jesus was a victim.
    Were his last words on the cross – “oh crap, how did I get myself into this mess?

    But to your point – OK, compare the greedy Enro employees tot he gassed Jews if it makes you feel better.

  115. randallslack says:

    MLD – You truly are Martin Luther’s disciple.

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