The Gospel For Asia Hireling Trio
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.” (John 10:11–14 ESV)
In the world of a sheep, there is no more important person than a shepherd.
He takes them to pasture, treats their ailments, protects them from the wolf, and leads them safely home.
The wolf problem is where the wool meets the road, where he earns the right to be called a shepherd.
This is because wolves will eat shepherds, too.
The shepherd puts himself at risk to protect the sheep.
The shepherd who runs away from the wolf is not a shepherd, but a hireling using the role of shepherd to make money without fulfilling the obligations of the role.
Gayle Erwin is a hireling.
Damian Kyle is a hireling.
Skip Heitzig is a hireling.
When they resigned from the board of Gospel For Asia they fled from something.
Something was so wrong with the organization that they could no longer risk being a part of it’s leadership.
They won’t tell us what it was that they saw.
Because they won’t tell us what it was that they saw, whatever it was is still a threat to those who give sacrificially to make the charity viable.
They cared deeply enough for themselves to remove themselves from the threat, but don’t care enough about the sheep to inform them as well.
They have left that job to bloggers and the media…people that they have already told their flocks never to trust.
They will cover their cowardice by telling each other that they are “leaving it to the Lord”.
Let’s blow that lying piety to hell.
The Lord most often uses means to accomplish His will.
The means He has chosen to protect His sheep is a shepherd.
When the shepherds become hirelings they become the stewards of hell instead of the shepherds of God.
This is not a word to simply accuse.
This is a call to these men to repent and fulfill the calling they claim to have on their lives.
It is a call to do it now, before any more of the saints are bitten by wolves because they have been left in pasture to find their own way home.
Love of God and church demands this…even if it costs you more than you want to pay.
Love of self alone will keep you silent…and affirm that you were never called at all.
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
BRAVO ! ! ! perhaps, their eyes will be opened yet and they will repent – but these fellas have us pew sitters wondering and we should be examining who WE support, too and why we do so… do we come for the show?
Thank you, Em…this all seems so simple and clear to me.
I don’t understand why we have to deal with things this way.
I had a conversation not too long ago where I said when a man that had been given the pulpit to gain support for his organization is found to be a wolf, then it is the responsibility of the shepherd to say something to his congregation and protect his sheep. All the more so for these men who are pastors and resigned from the GFA board assumingly due to the scandal and wrongdoing going on there. They need to speak from their platforms and warn the sheep.
Kevin H,
They need to speak far beyond their platforms because they governed an organization that spread far beyond their platforms.
They owe the whole Body of Christ the truth.
Michael,
I agree. By saying platforms, I was meaning more than just their individual churches. They should speak from whatever platform they have access to. Be it their churches, radio programming, social media, traditional media, etc.
Kevin H,
I misunderstood…sorry.
I’m a tad bit riled this morning…
There is an interesting conflict at hand for a non profit board member, particularly if a non disclore policy is in place or NDA was signed. The conflict goes like this:
1. Most states impose at a minimum a duty of loyalty and some states impose a higher fiduciary duty to the non profit organization. If this is in play with GFA board members, then resigning without disclosure is the process.
2. The bible imposes higher standards when wrongdoing is discovered. Matthew 18, troubled conscience, and protecting your fellow believer.
I find it interesting that Gayle, likely the ” least” of thoe three as far as stature and without a church flock, discosed some financial information that might have been a breach of his board duties. Arguments can be made that he only disclosed that which was already in the public domain, hence no breach. But he did put information out there that did send a warning message.
On the other hand, the other two fellows remained silent but for their resignations. I wonder if threats were made legally as a lot of moolah is a risk. After all, that would not be a shocker given that GFA did hire a public relations firm, thereby inferring a worldly approach to the matter.
Micharl, to me, with the narrative you issued above, the biggest issue is what you raise: why no warning from at least two of the fellows regardless of risk legally? If God our defense? Why is the fear of liability greater than the fear of God? On my part, pure conjecture, but money sure clouds issues such as these. I think Jesus spoke to that iisue, but maybe not.
Jeff,
I’m so very thankful you’re here and willing to bring these perspectives to us.
I find it very helpful to me and my readers in filling out a more complete picture.
I do believe Jesus spoke to this…
Respectfully, I think it unfair to include Damian Kyle in this “trio.”
The reason I say this is because he was on the GFA board a very short time, his heart was to help GFA and he was obviously convinced after his acceptance, he could not serve under the conditions he discovered after seeing the facts and conditions of the organization.
He was right in resigning. He has had a long relationship with K.P. Yohannon and I am more than sure his heart grieves greatly over what is happening at GFA. At the onset, he believed the best about KP obviously, and was forced to resign over the grievous state of GFA. His silence does not in any way imply he is a hireling.
Damian in my opinion is a very godly, compassionate man, and a ‘stand up’ pastor. I have never seen any guile or ego or self-promotion in his life and ministry. He is the opposite in every way in my estimation and observance.
It grieves me greatly to see him being grouped with Skip Heitzig who has in fact tarnished the reputation of Calvary Chapel. I think Gayle Erwin’s response to this fiasco speaks for itself.
For Damian to accept a board position in the first place, while he is fighting two different types of cancer, is on doctor’s orders to be free of stress, tells me he was trying to help a ministry in trouble. We cannot fault him for trying to help and then resigning when presented the facts.
What I find interesting is the lack of public accountability and criticism of Francis Chan’s continued membership on the board, or did he also resign? Where is the public call upon him to act and say something?
This is not JUST a “Calvary Chapel” thing especially if we continue saying that “Calvary Chapel’s are responsible for a third of GFA’s income.” Then, we must get on it and sniff out the other two thirds and hold them accountable as well.
I have informed my own congregation of GFA’s incompetence, and told them why we have ceased support of GFA. I have brought this to the attention of my colleagues as well.
In summary, please remove Damian from your criticism. I believe your assessment is incorrect. He is no “hireling”. This I know. You are implicating a good man who does not deserve it.
Just a quick add to my comment above, if I know Damian like I think I do, he is doing all that he can (privately and rightly so) to convince K.P. Yohannon to go back to his first love and to repent do the first works again. I am sure he is not sitting by idly. Or running away. Resigning from the board is a public act and speaks volumes about his convictions concerning GFA. Just because he is not publicly commenting or he is not doing what WE think he should do, make Damian a “hireling.” How will God restore a fallen man if we are not allowed to restore a fallen brother in meekness and in love? Is this not the heart of God?
Give me a few minutes…tied up at the moment.
If Damian is no hireling, than he will have no problem speaking out. If he knew enough to warrant leaving the board, he knows enough to inform and warn others. It really is that simple, as Michael has correctly explained. It IS hard when those who we’ve been inspired by and admire fall into error. I know the pain, heartbreak and confusion it causes well.
If we truly care about them, as not only mentors and teachers, but also care that the continue as trustworthy leaders, it is not unloving or disrespectful to point out where they have strayed. Damian’s own actions implicate him. If anything, as a good shepherd, he failed to do due diligence in examining GFA before agreeing to sit on the board. Maybe he fell prey to a bit of hero worship, as Twin Peaks seems to be experiencing.
The idea that family does not air its dirty laundry in public is behind a lot of the secrecy I think. As well as the concept that parents don’t argue or disagree in front of the kids – or in this case, the shepherds in front of “the sheep”. The truth that is hidden, when eventually revealed, causes more harm to everyone, than the false protection the secrecy was meant to provide. IMO, of course.
and without a church flock
———————————————
Jeff, and without church coffers that could be possibly attached in some class action lawsuit, I wonder about how the Directors and Officers Liability policies for these guys reads when they go serve on “related” non profit church ministries.
I do know (as do you) that the lawyers will drag everyone and every organization they can and the insurance companies will look for every other possible exclusion of coverage and/or inclusion of other policy limits from some other company insuring some related entity…
Michael, this post is your “95 THESES” Thanks for nailing it to the door of our hearts!!!
In my opinion, there is no secrecy on Damian’s part, but conspiracy theories on ours it seems. He is not obligated to speak against GFA publically, but he is obligated to uphold God’s standard and Word. You are free to have your own opinion. I shared mine. I’m sticking with it on my conscience’s sake.
Every time a new accusation of corruption & abuse is discovered and comes to this site, there is always a remnant of kool-aid drinkers making their appearance.
Raul Ries, David Rosales and Gary Ruff did the same thing with the Bob Grenier situation. When the heat came on, they ran for the hills (resigned from the Board) but still tacitly endorsed their man.
Typical Calvary Chapel stuff. It’s their M.O. and their true Doctrine and Belief and their loudest Sermon to those outside their cult bubble.
TP,
I would not hold Damian as responsible as Skip and Gayle who were on the GFA board for a significant period of time while many of these shenanigans were going on. And especially Gayle who conducted the farce of an investigation and report on the concerns of the GFA Diaspora. However, no matter how long he served on the board, I believe Damian has a moral obligation to not only let his own church know, but the church-at-large, too, as what is going on at GFA. I do not believe the news of his resignation is enough. As a shepherd, he has a responsibility to protect the sheep. Only some sheep know of his resignation, and even at that, they can only assume that he resigned because of the wrongdoing taking place at GFA. I believe Damian has a responsibility to speak to the situation so that the sheep can know and be protected. Much more so than the limited amount of sheep who currently know of the resignation and can only make assumptions at this point.
Damian Kyle is listed as “Leadership” and “Oversight” on Calvary Chapel’s national/international website.
Out of the other sides of their mouths…he isn’t responsible for overseeing anything per the bible’s definition of overseer and elder of a church denomination.
It’s a scam folks. Don’t believe them, they play you as fools.
I think it boils down to the question of if folks had not come forward to expose and reveal the spiritual and financial abuses, if the board members had discovered them on their own, would they have warned the sheep or chosen to deal with it “in house” so to speak.
The facts regarding GFA extend well beyond “conspiracy theories”. I believe restoring the fallen a necessary piece – urging KP to return to his first love etc. I believe alongside that goal, it is my conviction that those who poured their lives and finances into GFA require honesty, restoration and healing as well. Grace is not a trickle down commodity in most situations like this in many churches (not just CC) though it could be. Especially if accountabiliy, repentance and the need for grace were exampled more at the top.
I support and applaud your sticking to your convictions, TP. At the bottom line it is all any of us can really do. I also acknowledge that your loyalty, care and concern re: Damian extends deeper and more sincerely than mere ” hero worship”. Peace
Don’t expect Damian Kyle or any of those guys to do anything other than protect the Status Quo, to lie by omission and commission and to protect the Family Business.
That’s what they do, it’s who they are. To expect differently is living in denial and delusion.
I expect them to do exactly what they are doing right now. It’s their nature. It’s human nature.
Anne: Amen
Twin Peaks – First, I share your regard for Damien and have always admired his credibly when it came to reverence of the Word and teaching it. I believe the issue is why not speak out against that series of facts/allegations that caused the resignation? If Damien in with the best of intentions injected himself into this mess without asking the right questions beforehand (yet it may be likely [though not a certainty] GFA brought him in to do “damage control” and tailcoat his credibility and good name), one would think that he might exit his board membership with at least some disclosure as did Gayle. e.g. if you entered on mistaken assumptions, then leave with disclosure to protect others from associating with GFA under what might be less knowledge of the issues at hand and thereby allow those people to avoid making the same mistake. BUT, there may be legal liability concerns at hand, so…………hence, the issue I raised above.
Let this be a lesson to all here to not engage as a board member of any organization without doing due diligence before associating your name with it.
Steve: D & O will only cover liability of an officer or director engaged in performing services on behalf of and to the benefit of the organization . Here there is, I believe, a key distinction…disclosing what may be confidential information that is protected from disclosure and thereby incurring personal liability. Such action by a board member is not performance by him/her their in role of serving the best interests of the organization. To the contrary, it is arguably against the organization’s interests. Also, here the organization would be suing the board member as opposed to D & O typically providing cover to a board member from a 3rd party lawsuit. I could be wrong on that. Moreover, it is shocking to me the % of non-profits that do not carry D & O, particularly ones that have significant revenues.
Lastly, many carriers will not underwrite umbrella coverage for insured’s who serve a board members on a non-profit.
TP,
I appreciate and respect your respect for Damian Kyle.
I will respectfully completely disagree with your conclusions.
The resignations of these three men were not announced, they were reported and it took a bit to confirm the fact that they even happened.
Were it not for Warren Throckmorton and myself nobody would yet know outside the GFA bubble that they even left.
We do not yet know why they left…and that to me is a complete and total abandonment of their pastoral and ethical responsibilities to the Body of Christ.
Damian Kyle is as responsible as the other two…if he did not want to be linked with Heitzig, he should have not taken the appointment.
This is straight from the old Calvary Chapel playbook (The Ministry of the Assisting Pastor) that says even if you see the head pastor in sin you should say nothing, but leave quietly if the sin is too gross for you to bear.
If Damian Kyle truly cares for the church and the flock he will speak rather than see one more person defrauded.
I will not back off my criticism of his silence.
Yes, Francis Chan has the exact same responsibilities, and yes, he too is a hireling in my opinion.
I know the bible doesn’t matter, this can be twisted any which way you decide…but this goes back to the original premise of this blog and other blogs:
1 Timothy 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
I know, I know…”context” and “nuance” etc. which is why I no longer believe the bible is to be taken as “simple” and “literal” b/c no one does.
1 Calvary Chapel 5:20 For those Elders who are committing ongoing sin, what is “sin”…I mean really? Maybe the Elder isn’t really sinning, he’s just being falsely accused, in fact that’s it. You know who is really sinning? Those who are “gossiping” and “accusing the brethren”…those are your real sinners. Let’s rebuke those folks! Ya! We rebuke you you evildoers! Now close ranks, quietly resign from the Board but make sure you continue to support the Calvary Chapel Leader until the storm blows over…it always does…well, unless you’re Bob Coy and you finally got busted and couldn’t lie your way out of it.
That’s the Gospel Troof up there ^^ 😉
Heck, even Calvary Chapel Steve Wright seems to know that’s the Gospel Troof now. Glad to see him coming around a little.
Michael,
Respectfully, take the booklet from Larry Taylor “The Ministry Of The Assisting Pastor” and shred it. It has never been accepted as anything but a writing from Larry himself. It is useless and damaging to what an assistant pastor should be. Damian was board member and not an assistant pastor. He has been as senior pastor and mentor to many for over 30 years with an unblemished track record. His record speaks for itself and his very brief involvement on the GFA board does not tarnish him in any way.
We agree to disagree, I do not think Damian’s short tenure implicates him. I applaud him for coming in at a time when this was just starting to hit the fan. He had much to lose in trying to help KP. He was trying to help. He did not bail or IS bailing. He in good conscience could not serve an organization that was hiding facts, figures and so much more. The fact that GFA did not announce it, does not implicate Damian on the blog here today. Sorry. I just don’t agree.
I have to run, but I want to address the idea that any of these three are acting “compassionately”.
In my minds eye (and in my email) I see people on limited incomes who love the Lord and want to serve Him with their hearts and finances.
They believed their leaders and believed that Gospel For Asia was a safe place to do so…that all the money they gave sacrificially went to those who needed it more than they did.
They made a commitment…and they have honored it even when it cost them more than money.
Acting in compassion would involve informing these dear saints that we had all been deceived and that while God accepted their sacrifice as holy, it was not prudent to continue at this time.
That would be compassionate.
Hoping that maybe they stumble upon the Phoenix Preacher or Patheos is dereliction of compassion, not an evidence of it.
Michael said: “Yes, Francis Chan has the exact same responsibilities, and yes, he too is a hireling in my opinion.”
Michael, then please do not leave him outside your “trio.” He is to be included. He is as culpable. Don’t be silent regarding him and keep attacking CC pastors. What about the other board members? I am not getting your angle. It isn’t about CC, it is about GFA and it’s sin and disobedience.
TP,
You do not know any more than I do why he resigned unless he personally told you something that he has not revealed publicly.
If that is the case, then I guess we have a scoop…
“He has been as senior pastor and mentor to many for over 30 years with an unblemished track record.”
He’s got a good record, never heard much about him on the other blog and many speak highly of him…yet he still willingly and knowingly participates in a corrupt System and he continues to “fellowship” with bad guys and tacitly endorses them by his continued “fellowship” with them and that is “sin” according to the bible…but as I stated earlier, you can twist the bible (and you do) to say and excuse whatever you want.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
But, again, that’s just the bible and I know it doesn’t mean what it says. There is “context” and “nuance” and Damian Kyle being in “Association” and “Fellowship” doesn’t mean anything and doesn’t mean what those words are said to mean…they mean something different and you can spin it however you want which is what you and Calvary Chapel do, which is your True Belief about the authority of the bible…which is that it has zero authority, it’s whatever you say depending on the situation.
TP,
Probably an explanation is in order regarding Chan.
There are two bloggers covering this story, Warren Throckmorton and myself.
We have two different platforms and two very different audiences.
His audience would be very familiar with Chan, mine with CC.
He has taken Chan to task numerous times.
I have directed my writing to my audience, though I have mentioned Chan at times as well.
I don’t see this as an attack on CC…I wouldn’t give a hoot in hell if these guys were Presbyterians or Quakers…the principles are still the same.
In fact, there have been some CC guys speak out and who have supported what we’re doing here.
CalvaryChapelASSOCIATION.com
“Do not ‘Associate’ with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or GREEDY, an IDOLATER (Most CC Pastors make Chuck Smith an Idol and the CC System and Idol) or slanderer (many CC Pastors falsely accuse those who call them to accountability) a DRUNKARD (lots of CC pastors on prescription drugs who abuse them) or SWINDLER (lots of very rich CC pastors who are millionaires from selling the Gospel for Greedy Gain).”–The bible
Admit it, none of you take the bible as literal or authoritative. None.
I just acknowledge that fact and accept it and am no longer under any delusion that you really practice or believe any differently by YOUR example. Very clear message over the years. Many observe it and see your true Sermon and I agree with you.
I think Jeff has it nailed, the silence is probably due to potential liability.
I’m sure they all have lawyers who have counseled them to to refrain from saying anything publicly.
My stomach hurts…
If you disagree with the simple reading of those verses, great, I agree. The bible doesn’t mean what it says. Amen. You can apply your “context” and “nuance” to any portion of Scripture and claim the same. “It doesn’t really mean THAT…I can explain that away!”
Quit lying to each other and playing some sort of game. It’s all bull***t and you know it, deep down you do.
Twin Peaks – have to disagree with your statement “it has never been accepted as a writing from Larry Himself.” Really….then please explain why Calvary Distrubution sold it to CC’s for some 5 plus years. What about Romaine’s book “Second” which again was published by Calvary Chapel Publishing and said essentially the same thing.
The distinction you make b/t senior pastor and pastor misses the mark. Michael’s point is the dynamic which is rampant in many CC’s…that is, leave and shut up while you do so…regardless of the biblical merits of the matter and actions the bible commands us to take in leaving.
Dear Michael, I am not looking for a scoop. I am asking that we view the board members as separate men. I am speaking up for a man who is upright in heart. If we are going to implicate by association, then please blame me personally for GFA’s fall, for I am a “dyed-in-the-wool” Calvary Chapel pastor and I am to blame for all the hypocrisy and lies and deceit of millions of dollars in missionary money misused at GFA
. Now knowing me as you do, can you do that in good conscience? (Then please do not do it to Damian.) I say this to you in all respect and love. Thanks.
I give kudos to KP Y. he’s a survivor, he’ll beat this and he’s got millions of dollars from suckers all saved up in his bank accounts. KP Y. gets it. He knows how to play the game better than most of the small pikers in the Christian Biz. He has enough money that he’ll beat this handily, nothing to worry about.
Good businessman, very shrewd. If I didn’t have a conscience, I’d probably get in that biz and aspire to be like him.
Chuck Smith would be proud of KP Y. Really he would. He’s got tons of money, good lawyers and has distance. All very solid business moves. He’ll win, no doubt about it. This will all blow over in less than a year.
Actually, KP Y. should begin a lawsuit or two, that would guarantee he beats this, all his critics would run for the hills, guaranteed.
KP Y. if you are reading this…believe me, start some lawsuits, you’ll beat this no problem.
TP,
I am not dealing with guilt by association.
If you had been on the GFA board your name would be in lights too.
If Kyle is upright in heart he will speak to protect the people of God.
KP Y. the best defense is a good offense. Start some lawsuits…that will guarantee you victory. You can then turn the tables and control the narrative and do like others in CC are doing.
It’s not about Right and Wrong…it’s about you surviving and winning. You must protect “your ministry” b/c the ends justify the means and you are specially anointed and it doesn’t matter what you do, how you do it…all that matters is you and that your “ministry” beats this.
You have the money and the power to do this. Don’t delay. File some lawsuits and go on offense. Then you will win for sure. Guaranteed. Your critics will run for cover b/c believe me I’ve observed the dynamic, everyone is a big old Tiger online…until the lawsuits start flying.
Trust me, it’ll work.
….but I wouldn’t sue me, I’m 1 in a billion. I’ll die on a hill and don’t give a f*** as I truly believe that if “God” is real…and he may or may not be…he knows my heart and nothing else matters other than doing what I believe is right even if it costs me literally everything I have. I’m “crazy” like that. But the others aren’t, you’ll win, guaranteed.
TP: would you do me the courtesy of responding ro my statement?
“If Damien in with the best of intentions injected himself into this mess without asking the right questions beforehand (yet it may be likely [though not a certainty] GFA brought him in to do “damage control” and tailcoat his credibility and good name), one would think that he might exit his board membership with at least some disclosure as did Gayle. e.g. if you entered on mistaken assumptions, then leave with disclosure to protect others from associating with GFA under what might be less knowledge of the issues at hand and thereby allow those people to avoid making the same mistake.”
Heck, name Michael and Throckmorton in the suit, they’ll shut up really quick, guaranteed.
Sorry, it’s the troof.
Now this is entirely barbaric and a myth, but I post this to point out the True Belief of “Christians”…NONE will put their family and kids in harm’s way for a Righteous Cause…I’ve been told such by many when the heat is on especially with lawsuits. NONE will do it. It’s why the Calvary Chapel Pastors say they don’t get involved either, they have mouths to feed and they don’t want any trouble.
None have a faith like Abraham and I agree you should not, you should protect your own and your own interests when the heat comes down.
22 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad[a] and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide;[b] as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”
15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Al, I’m with you bro but Plz don’t hijack this thread too much 🙂
You don’t really believe at all what you profess…and that’s OK, no one does.
It’s a very convoluted True Belief you have (general “christian” you).
Your actions and what you demonstrate is your True Belief, not your Apologetic.
I’ve learned much through Observation and Experience. When push comes to shove, you do what every other human does in every other religion in every other philosophical Camp….b/c you are human and you are not “transformed”
Sorry once a cc guru, the “Spirit” hasn’t moved like this in awhile with me and I gots to let it out 😉
I just hope it’s not a bowel movement 😉
I think the “Spirit” is done (I hope). I really can’t stand this stuff any more. I’m sick of it.
I truly wish you all the best. We live in one f’d up world but it also has a lot of good stuff in it like sex and good food and drink and friends and fun and helping your neighbor out of just wanting to help them and not out of scoring points for a deity or trying to get your way out of hell.
Don’t worry so much, you don’t have to be a Puritan and you’ll never be “good enough” and don’t give any Power to men and Gurus and Church Systems, they are as impotent as a 100 year old man with no viagra and high blood pressure.
Good day, love you all (well most of you).
I hope your smiling… I love you AG!
Oh, yes…BIG SMILE 🙂 LOL
Love you too brother.
“I just hope it’s not a bowel movement” Haha!
No, that’s Chuck’s “Movement” 🙂
Hate to disappoint you Al, but you are wrong. I served PC personally for eleven years in many capacities, and when it came to the CSN issue, I layed my neck out there and was grossly slandered by his son (as many would testify…even Chuck were he alive) knowing that it would ultimately marginalize me and finally drive me from minstry at the age of 55 as an unemployable lawyer. but for God’s goodness working thru a friend, I would have lost all. Now I say this not to elevate myself, but to evidence th fact your broad stroke brush is unwarranted as to what all beleivers would do as you say as well as to all CC’s.
But what would I know? TP won’t even dignify me with a response as no doubt I am a peon to him since he is a “died in the wool” CC pastor. I suspect I know him, but will leave it at that.
BTW I and others I can surely speak for really miss you “over there”!!!
Sheck, there are 7 Billion folks on the planet. You are #2 in a Billion 🙂
Or 1 in a Billion of the other 6 Billion LOL
@28 Twin Peaks,
While I share your sentiment on ” The Ministry of the Assisting Pastor”, booklet, it was one whom you respect that place that booklet innto my hands and told me to read it. He practiced that entire false construct in the adminstration of his church, and I am told by credible sources that he continued to do so long after I stop drinkinng teh kool-aid and ran for my life.
While Larry Taylor and his writings no longer hold much of an open exposure within Calvary, the caste was long ago set, and the practice runs widely within these circles.
thanks once a cc guru. I do miss it so. God has beeen so good to me. Retired and looking out the window at the falling snow as I scream at my IPad then wait ten minutes (after 30 deep breaths), then return to the Spirit, then respond. No doubt this blog has given me years I didn’t deserve due to blowing out my arteries reading this blog.
So at this point is there not enough data for a fraud lawsuit or something to the effect of a misappropriation of funds. Is there no pastor and congregation that can grab WTs and PPs data and file something? A non-CC church or CC outside the inner circle…Is there a reason this has not happened? Retribution??
I have KPs first book. It is removed from my view.
Pastor Al – you have endeared yourself to me eternally using “Sheck.” Its been a while since I read that.
“BTW I and others I can surely speak for really miss you “over there”!!!”
The “Spirit’ hasn’t compelled me to speak up in quite awhile. I have real doubts about the Faith and Organized Religion like Calvary Chapel and all others.
I don’t know that it does any good to speak against it b/c it’s like speaking against a Bear crapping in the woods. It’s a Bear, that’s what it does.
Wow
Hey Jeff if you see this. One of the things about D&O – coverage may be listed (and thus a duty to defend) for outside nonprofit entities if there is a written request and acknowledgement to be on that outside entity Board.
And I can imagine the notion of “Hey our church gives you a lot of money, how about a seat on the Board for our pastor” coming into play as to GFA.
That’s how our D&O reads. Which is good for the director and church….just not too good if that other entity is crooked.
And of course, in many states, punitive damages are not insurable at all – if those were to come into play down the road.
Men are drawn to Power like moths to flame. Religion is Power to a big chunk of the human population. The goal of “pastor” is to cultivate a following and “grow” a “ministry” it is what it is.
Power corrupts. It always does. It’s innate. It’s ingrained in our Human Nature. It’s who we are. Even the blog dynamic demonstrates this.
Jesus said “Do NOT be called Rabbi/Teacher! You are all brothers…be Servant of All…greatest is to be the least etc etc.”
Nope, not in organized “church”. Doesn’t nearly work that way…and it cannot work that way because the whole Construct is a Hierarchy and you put a man as the center of attention, up on a stage. What could go wrong?
Hey, I like a “following” like anyone else. I like to hear myself talk b/c I’m smarter than the rest of you and more “enlightened” or whatever.
That’s the mindset of all the Gurus and Pastors, troof be told. It’s human. It’s normal. It’s what we do.
SJ – your damages are what you gave. That and a cup of coffee wont get you a decent lawyer to take this case (unless it is not by a contingency). Yeah, let’s lawyer up. That will do it. Sounds like u r attnding Pastor Al’s Scool of Theology, with a major in relativistic interpretation.
Keep talking like that Al and I will drag out my former nom de guerre “Hiyam Wright.”
I’m with you SJ, let’s sue!
That’s the Calvary Chapel way.
Sheck, I can’t assail Jesus’s teachings (in general). My Conscience agrees with much of what is attributed to him having said and demonstrated.
What “man” has done with that? Well, not so much.
Oh. My tummy hurts. Michael, please come back with stories of Kitty that make me think rather than rant.
I truly hate religion and church constructs and gurus/leaders…but I love Jesus.
I think Jesus hates that stuff as well. It’s not nearly “the church” that he spoke of…in fact it looks a lot more like Anti-Christ IMO.
Jeff,
Damian could quite possibly have been given a ‘bill of goods’ in order to accept the board position. Who knows? Only he and the Lord does. His membership was very brief but yet he is wrongly being vilified.
My guess is he probably accepted out of indebtedness and friendship to KP after so many years of close fellowship. Would it even occur to anyone here that MAYBE Damian feels betrayed by KP? Again, Damian has cancer. He is commuting long distances to treat it. He is paying the price for his brief involvement. He backed off all other boards and dedicated himself and his time to fight his illness. So for him to accept this daunting and no win situation speaks volumes of his love for KP. Damian is very quiet and does not owe a thing to anyone except God Himself. I am disturbed that he is being attacked when no one knows the back story and his motivation for accepting the position.
He was one of what, 6-8 board members? My heart goes out to him and to see the “Trio of Hirelings” label hung on him without Francis Chan mentioned and the other still existent board members, it gives the impression of another attack on CC.
Why isn’t Francis Chan getting flak for STILL CONTINUING to sit on GFA’s board in light of all these proven allegations? Why isn’t there a thread here on that topic?
Here is the problem: This sad, ugly, sinful drama is losing it’s momentum and we have to try and keep it alive to ‘right all of the horrible injustices’ done. So, let’s write an article about the “GFA Trio of Hirelings” (While leaving the other ‘hirelings’ out) and keep the story out front.
We must remind ourselves and trust that God will have His say. And He will have a say in regards to our own hearts and comments. May I even say, He will address our own bitterness towards certain people.
Peace….
With the potential of future legal and financial liabilty in the event things go south like they have with GFA, why in the world would any man of God want a position on a board like that?
This is messy stuff.
“Again, Damian has cancer.”
Oh, that says it all.
God got him.
That’s one of Chuck Smith’s teachings.
Jeff,
Friday is Miss Kitty day.
I’m trying to get her well enough to appear… 🙂
So as a board member (or employee), who have signed a non disclosure agreement, this then exempts us from disclosimg corruption to customers and share holders, or does this put us in the position of being complicit?
“Here is the problem: This sad, ugly, sinful drama is losing it’s momentum and we have to try and keep it alive to ‘right all of the horrible injustices’ done.”
Now, I’m mad.
I believe God wants this sad, ugly, sinful, drama exposed and God wants the injustices righted.
I believe He calls on His people to do both.
Some people are trying to answer that call and people like you can choose to mock it all you want…I just got my second wind from that comment.
“The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ I think that you are trying to do harm to the work of God. I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.”–Chuck Smith.
Heck, the old codger called down that same judgment on me from his powerful CCCM pulpit and I stated publicly he called down a curse on himself…and he got diagnosed with cancer a month later and died of cancer a year to the day later.
But, just coincidence, we know God doesn’t do that sort of thing…unless it’s Chuck Smith calling it or Raul Ries etc (who did that bull***t as well as many other CC pastors).
I guess Damian had it coming b/c he disobeyed God and touched his anointed or something.
Once again the pastor is the victim of the awful blogger.
The pastor is sick, so he’s righteous.
The blogger isn’t doing too well himself.
He is well aware that his only righteousness is imputed.
The victims are the people who are being taken in, not the ones who enable the taking.
Maybe Bob Grenier will die soon of something.
C’mon God, make me a believer again! 🙂
Last comment from me.
I feel betrayed by K.P. and have removed his books/messages from my library. The person I need to hear from is him. Not former board members. Not anyone here. Be honest with yourselves…all is conjecture on our/your parts until we hear from the head man himself. Who here REALLY knows the true narrative? No one. Resolution will only come when repentance is shown and forgiveness is asked. I have written KP personally and received a response from him in India that he will call me…I am still waiting.
Thanks TP for the response, although it wasn’t to my statement I first made. I am not here to hang another burden on Damien, especially given his circumstances. But candidly, Of the three resigned board members, Damien making some small statment about the issues at GFA (as Gayle did), would bring volumes of credence to heed his warning and make such a statement that, I suppose, to cause many CC attendees to cease their fiscal support of KPY. And GFA in reliance on his testimony rather than being “taken.”
The vast majority will mock what you are doing Michael. They are the Bear crapping in the woods, they can’t help themselves, it’s who they are.
I mock their precious Gurus back, their precious impotent powerless feckless Gurus who are fools who called down curses who died of their cancers.
TP,
The reason we don’t know the narrative is because no one will speak.
KP will hide in India with his millions…we still have to clean up the mess here.
Oh dear, here we go again–the “bitterness” button being played.
Heck, maybe God will smite KP Y. That would be something. C’mon God, Chuck Smith says you do that sort of thing, get ye to some smoting. Maybe he’ll get killed by a muslim or something.
Uriahsaliveandwell
Well, it now seems highly likely the CEO (and perhaps others) might (or already are) face criminal proceedings and jail time. You do the math.
Sorry. meant to say CEO of volkswagon
Pastor Al,
I believe this stuff and I love the church.
It has not been without cost for me to do so.
I’m trying to clean up what and where I can…not out of disbelief in Christ and the authority of His word, but out of deep faith in both.
I will continue to do so as best as I can…but let me be clear that I do it from a love of the church, not a desire to destroy it.
Mockery only accomplishes so much…we have to do this soberly and seriously if we are to be heard.
Here’s my Smite list God, since Chuck Smith and Raul Ries and others in CC say that’s how you roll….
1. Bob Grenier. Smote that m’fer…I vote for cancer or heart attack.
2. KP Y. I think a muslim going jihad on him would be a good one. I vote for that.
3. All the Board members of GFA. Just smite them a little. Maybe finish off Kyle since he’s already got the cancer and then do a little smoting on Erwin, like maybe a health crisis. Smote Skip with a sex scandal.
Thanks and please and thank you. Amen. 😉
Michael, you are twisting my words. You getting mad is a choice you make. You and I are on the same page as far as damaged lives and damage done to innocent people, so stop it.
Stop making inane comments like ” The pastor is sick, so he’s righteous” – You know I am not saying that. I am saying lay off Damian. You don’t know him. I do. He is NOT a ‘taker” but a radical God fearing “giver.”
Stop going places where you are conjecturing. Hit ALL the guilty and not some. Be fair. Balanced. You’re not awful and you know I am not saying that either.
Michael I know you try and are sincere…but I think it’s largely all Bull-pucky and you are simply tilting at windmills.
These guys are not going to change, they can’t. The System won’t change, it can’t. God is not active in this creation. He doesn’t smite folks, it’s all random and there is no correlation to anything really…other than some stuff like Sowing and Reaping principle (if you eat too much, you’ll be a glutton like Gayle Erwin…but that sin is OK).
Now if “God” does all that stuff on my list? I’ll change my tune and BELIEVE like a mother trucker LOL. But, it won’t happen and God is not active in this existence. He’s more the God of our Founding Fathers, not the Fundie Evangelical.
TP,
I’ll lay off Damian when Damian decides to serve the church in this matter and not K.P. Yohannan.
There are thousands of people who don’t know what to believe because the people they trust are silent.
Damian may well be a fine fellow…but his silence is enabling suffering and corruption.
I feel misunderstood…whatever. Carry on.
Pastor Al,
My God is real and He’s active, and He is all I have.
You are free to believe as you choose…but I’m all in with God.
i’m not interested in debating it…if I’m wrong I hope I’m wrong for the right reasons.
“My God is real and He’s active, and He is all I have.”
How is he active specifically?
If he is so active, why do you fear getting sued?
If you really believed “God” is that active, you wouldn’t fear stuff…yet Fundie Evangelicals are among the most afraid folks I know.
Where’s Hiyam Wright when we need him the most???
I hear the words…I observe the actions and practices. I observe a ton of fear in Fundie Evangelicalism and actions and practices that don’t really have any real trust in God…every decision is largely made based on fear and protecting the little or a lot of what one has accumulated.
Pastor Al. You truly are the Phil Hendrie of this blog. I miss him so. Now there is a man with talent. Had me there buddy. Big year for Boise State. NOT.
I fear getting sued because I’m already below the poverty line and living hand to mouth and people depend on me.
Having said that, I’m still typing away and still doing what I’ve done for over a decade and well aware that any of these guys might decide to sue me for doing so.
Courage isn’t the lack of fear, it’s doing the right thing even when you’re afraid.
The CC Pastors? They make their decisions based on Fear of loss and protecting what they have carved out for themselves and their families. It’s the troof and ya’ll know it. I’ve heard it and seen it many times and even big name at CCCM privately assent to that as factual.
“Courage isn’t the lack of fear, it’s doing the right thing even when you’re afraid.”
Agreed.
I fear a lot of things…that doesn’t mean God isn’t alive and active.
It means I know I live in a fallen creation where everyone dies.
It means I understand that some justice will be delayed until His return.
I know and believe He’s active in my life despite the circumstances…it’s a deeply personal knowing that will convince no one but myself.
My hope is that you come to know this too…but debating won’t make it so.
Keep up the good work, even if it only makes a small Dent.
I’m done for awhile. Thanks for putting up with me. Could be random, could be meant to have been said. Dunno. But I said what “was on my heart” today.
….and I continue to observe and hear the real sermons taught in actions and practices, not mere words.
Jeff: I am surprised by your bringing up potential legal liability as described in #23.
If board members speak the truth and merely confirm or deny public accusations made against an NPO— especially when a respected watchdog like ECFA is blowing the whistle—I cannot see how action could be taken against them. I have never seen a Christian NPO, including a church, which required board members to sign an NDA and would be astounded if one was in place here. A board member has a responsibility to all stakeholders—donors, staff and the public at large— not just to the remaining board members.
The last thing GFA wants is more publicity about all this.
A short article on the subject I found at NOLO.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/nonprofit-directors-personal-liability-32357.html
Jim: the issue causing potental liability is disclosing confidential information freely that they came into by virtue of their memenership on the board that they ((or the public) would not otherwise know (e.g not in public domain) that causes damage to the organization. unfortunately oi am aware of quite a few churches (and non profits) that do require executing an NDA as a condition to serve.
ECFA did not blow the whistle in the sense that they had a right (given to them by their members) to withdraw membership. Notice they did not state specific acts or facts in their announcement. They merely excercised the right under agreement that GFA gave them in joining ECFA.
This is where you cross in “whisleblower” status which under certain circumstances can be a public policy exception to their condientiality obligation.
My point being that it is my beleif that a church board member is under a greater law than the state (Romans 13) in that if the church or its leader(s) violate their commandments under the NT, they have Matthew 18 obligations, which at some point does require public disclusre, at least to the body.
Scott, the very first line of nolo there is somewhat deceptive. Incorporation does NOT necessarily protect owners if those owners are personally liable. Yes, the owner is covered under his corporate insurance typically first (if there is any) but the idea that this is as far as anyone can go is simply wrong. Jeff can back me up.
Not to mention there are all sorts of ways and reasons the courts might allow one to pierce the corporate veil as it is called. It is usually made easier the smaller, more closely held the corporation is. Which is funny because some guys have incorporated, hold all the stock, never have Board meetings, keep minutes, and on occasion use the business checking account to pay a personal bill, and they think their incorporation means that when they personally hurt someone (body, property, reputation etc) that they don’t have to worry about anything.
Saw it a lot in the insurance world….
Re: “the last thing GFA wants is more publicity.”
It is sad but my expereince has shown that non profits have and likely will sue board members, beleivers, etc. to intimidate or in the belief that they have been damaged and as good sewards, seek recovery. Recent lawsuits, many which have been covered on this blog prove the point.
Unfortunately beleivers are sheep, ready to be fleeced and worse, have an all so short memory or refuse to conform theirfinancial suport to the obvious facts known to all. So I no longer presuppose the actions of non profits.
Jeff @113 – Is it not true that if one did break a confidentiality agreement, the only ones that could do anything about it would be the corporation. In other words, it is not a criminal act and it would take GFA to actually bring a suit for said violation…correct?
Posted as you were doing #115
ECFA went far beyond merely withdrawing membership. They explicitly listed accountability standards necessary for membership that GFA did not meet. I believe that these exiting board members would and should have seen the whole management report provided by ECFA and have a responsibility to make known if they agree with the findings and if this influenced their decision to leave.
Steve – you are correct under both posts.
Jim: really can’t commment other than to say the terms of ECFA membership govern the rights of whether ECFA can withdraw membership and what nrmation it can disclose in doing. No having read that agreement, beyond that commment. Is pure speculation. From a distance, I would not be surprised if ECFA and other like kind organizations had the right to disclose without listing supporting details/facts intheir review what requirements of membership were breached. i say this because I’m sure these type monitoring organizations do not wish to have their actions appear biased, arbitrary or unreasonable so they probably require disclosure of the general require,ents breached by the member to insure that they are bot seen as such…unreasonable, arbitrary or capricious.
Steve, yeah I get the corporate veil can be pierced. I thought the lawyer did a decent job in demonstrating the fact that there are instances where a board director can be held liable, thus, the need for additional coverage when and where it is appropriate and available.
Indeed, Scott. Definitely a need.
In the insurance world, the personal umbrella policy used to be used for such strange liability risks – like being on the Board of the city Little League for example. Not a million dollar non profit. No coverage on the homeowners but the umbrella (hence the name) would fit over the home and auto and plug a few gaps – like this one.
Now though, umbrellas are becoming rarer and instead a lot of companies sell an “excess liability policy” which is just more coverage on top of your auto and home policies (typically a couple million or so more coverage) but if the auto/home policy does not cover it (like the D&O of a nonprofit) then the excess policy won’t either.
Lots of insurance agents out there have done an unprofessional job explaining this to clients.
Yeah. Those insurance agents ought to look to lawyers and how they conduct themselves in their profession. Professionals indeed.
The good lawyers can go after the wicked insurance agents and the good insurance agents can protect clients from the wicked lawyers. 🙂
Alex/Jeff, wrrrooonnnggg.
Meaning suite against GFA for not using the funds as they stated they would be to the hundreds of churches where they pitched. Churches did not give for a multi mill campus in Texas, right?
Were you thinking i meant filing suite to shut up all the bloggers and truth exposers? Meant the exact opposite.
So would this possibly mean that Neo of San Juan Capistrano is a hirely also…?
Surfer,
I’m confused about the connection.
Neo has been in the hospital fighting for his life for the last couple of weeks…
From a “Natural” perspective wolves, I mean the wolves that live in packs (or family unit) rear their young, are for the most part monogamous are rather noble creatures. Wolves may approach their prey via stealth and “cunning” hunting as a unit, but it is for survival and are a vital element to maintaining a natural balance in an echo system. Wolves very rarely attack humans for example, there were maybe 11 documented attacks on humans per year from 1200-1920 in France. There were very few in North America and if one compares to how many wolves have been slaughtered by human well I won’t get into that discussion.
I get why its used as a metaphor in the Scriptures but I think it is important that there are many truly noble characteristics about wolves and how they care for their families.
I get it Brian… Wolves are good! Pastors who act like wolves and scatter the sheep are bad.
Even demons love their own… I think?
Its more like, wolves do not pretend to be sheep, they are wolves and act like what God created them to act like.
I have not read all the comments yet, but it seems obvious that these guys are afraid of being legally culpable.
If they are not, they should be.
Maybe it is relevant that a wolf, if you confront it one on one, is pretty cowardly. It’s when a bunch of them group up and outnumber another that they act tough
Micheal I am suprised that you would say Francis Chan is hireling.
I don’t know him personally, but I feel that he is one of the few bright beacons of light in the evangelical world today with a prominent platform. I think the fact that he left his ministry in California and cut back his public persona is quite commendable.
Every time I have heard Francis preach it has been from a heart of sincerity. He is one of the few public preachers out there with a significant platform who questions the evangelical industrial complex.
Is he perfect? By all means no!!
But I don’t think he is a hireling. If anything he is trying to move the mainstream church away from celebrity pastor worship, and a system that is structured like a corporation. I assume that Francis Chan is fairly close to KP, and if anything he might be in the perfect position to influence him in a positive way.
Just something to consider.
I like Steve Wright’s “wolf” analogy.
Kind of like Calvary Chapel “Association”.
Lone Wolves, until SHTF, then they gather into a pack and protect their own and Right and Wrong doesn’t matter.
So, now after reading them…
TP, I think you are blinded by your loyalty. Why can’t you seem to admit that your man SHOULD HAVE taken more time to examine GFA before attaching his name to it?
Any fallout on him is directly attributable to that decision. Self-inflicted, if you will.
And yeah, we just love to watch these organizations crash and burn. That we once believed in. That to which we have given sacrificially . That we believed were doing God’s work.
Your position is ridiculous.
“Maybe it is relevant that a wolf, if you confront it one on one, is pretty cowardly. It’s when a bunch of them group up and outnumber another that they act tough” I am not sure one can attribute such to a wolf, being cowardly or “tough” it makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view to know that a social animal will not fair well, nor attempt to deal with a threat alone when survival is much more possible in numbers. One might also look at the connection of the domestication of dogs and their genetic connection to the grey wolf. Some studies put the first domesticated canine close to 15 thousand years ago. Many domesticated dogs, which is arguably the first animal the human species has domesticated is a very brave and faithful animal and there are many anecdotal “evidence” that they have laid down their lives for their owner / “master”.