The mothership is down, again

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  1. Glenn says:

    First! What’s going on? The Apostle Frederick K C Price
    is here, too!

  2. BrianD says:

    He is? 😯

    I have no idea, except I checked the dot-com when I woke up and saw the page was gone…tell your friends about the dot-net…

  3. Tim says:

    What’s the deal with the “buymoreinc” folks? This is pretty ridiculous. I can imagine how frustrating this is for Michael & the other mods.

  4. Xenia says:

    Good morning, PPeeps!

  5. Rob Murphy says:

    Did anyone see this interview between Chris Hitchens and a Unitarian minister named Marilyn Sewell up there in Oregon?

    Here’s my favorite interchange:
    Sewell: The religion you cite in your book is generally the fundamentalist faith of various kinds. I’m a liberal Christian, and I don’t take the stories from the scripture literally. I don’t believe in the doctrine of atonement (that Jesus died for our sins, for example). Do you make and distinction between fundamentalist faith and liberal religion?

    Hitchens: I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven, you’re really not in any meaningful sense a Christian.

    Pretty funny, Hitchens, FTW. Christopher Hitchens is very eloquent.

    I wanted to post this on the linkathon that had the letter writing between the atheist and the pastor . . . can’t remember either name on that one, but I thought this was interesting variation or companion piece to that theme. Although I think both ‘pastors’ fumbled obviously and badly. Sorry I can’t remember to give proper citation.

  6. paigemom says:

    Morning Friends…. Jesus Christ, the Same Yesterday, Today and Forever. Everything else is up for grabs. Cling to The Rock.
    Blessings, ya’ll. Have an awesome day! no worries.

  7. Bob Sweat says:

    First! Been sometime since I posted those words. 🙂

  8. centorian says:

    I love that cartoon.. It is so appropriate for this day and age….

  9. MDSF says:

    Thanks for the link Rob.

    Christopher Hitchens is not a toy.

  10. Michael says:

    I contacted Jake…I can’t get in to the back end of this one either…technology!

  11. Xenia says:

    I have a friend who loves using old-style apologetics to prove the existence of God. These arguments worked years ago… well, maybe they didn’t work, but people listened politely. But I keep telling him that a new generation of atheists has risen up that don’t listen so politely.

    I think that we Christians have behaved so poorly in recent decades that unbelievers hold us in disdain and feel increasingly comfortable in mocking us all. I don’t think people are going to be convinced by arguments these days, I think they need to see our lights shining, as Jesus said.

    As the Newsboys say, “Shine! Let ’em wonder what you got!”

  12. Lutheran says:


    I agree with your observations.

    It was Gandhi who said something to the effect, “I like Jesus. But I don’t like His followers.”

    Even more to the point, I think especially those under 40 or so are looking for authenticity
    and connection, not a bunch of arguments. Give and take, not preaching and “this is how it is, like it or lump it.”

  13. Xenia says:

    Lutheran, yep. (Good to see you, by the way. You’ve been scarce!)

    We are so afraid of “salvation by works” that we forget that Jesus said

    “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
    —Matthew 5:14-16, NIV”

    Here’s Jesus flat out saying we are to do good works as an evangelistic tool. If we act like Jesus, God gets the glory.

  14. Lutheran says:



    I believe it was John Stott, the Anglican pastor and writer, who once said that for a Christian, evangelism and good works/social action are like two wings of an airplane. You need both. And both give glory to God, as you so well said. They should not be pitted against one another.

    Sometimes I wonder if people on here think that people in Reformation churches sit around all day and go on sterile head trips, arguing picaune theological points and other abstractions. Not true. Lutheranism is actually, in my experience, very neighbor oriented and a very down to earth thing. In fact, my guess is that I’m about the only one in our church (besides the pastor) who would get involved in these kinds of discussions on PP.

  15. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have never seen apologetics convert anyone. Apologetics are to help believers stay convinced. The only thing that works with unbelievers is a quick short presentation of the gospel and let the Holy Spirit work on the person. When that happens, perhaps the person will be back and you can give them some apologetics to help remove some stumbling stone.

    The cosmological argument does not lead or point anyone to Christ.

    Letting your light shine by your good works, without the words, could lead someone to Mormonism – in fact it has lead many there. It could also lead to Judaism when they see all the good works the Jews do through their brotherhoods and sisterhood organizations.

    Gotta say the words, BOLDLY.

  16. Lutheran says:


    I think apologetics done rightly, for the unbeliever, can kind of “clear the ground”
    so the person can come to the Cross. Francis Schaeffer said that we owe an
    honest answer to an honest question. The problem is, some people see apologetics
    as sport, a way to win the most points, not a way to point to the Way.

  17. Bob Middleton says:

    Actually Josh McDowell’s “Evidence that demands a verdict” was instrumental in my conversion, and that is as “Apologetic” as it gets. I know personally multiple people in which apologetics helped them get beyond what they thought were “intellectual” issues in order to really consider the faith.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Schaeffer at least was a presupositionalist – so he started with God, and in his case he starts with the God of the Bible.

    Even the evidential apologetics of McDowell can only lead you at most to the accuracy of the Bible as written, but not to Christ. The same tactic can be used to show that the Koran has been handed down in tact.

    Like I said earlier, after somone has heard the Gospel message and the HS has worked on them, can they come back and ask questions that can be answered with apologetics. Try some apologetics on Hitchens.

  19. Tim says:

    About McDowell…Josh has said many times that it wasn’t the apologetics that brought him to Christ; it was the love of God. The apologetics just got the “foot in the door,” so to speak.

    There’s a time & place for it all, in my book. Fish with the bait that’s appropriate.

  20. Bob Middleton says:

    I guess it depends on what you define as “apologetics”. Certainly McDowell’s stuff isn’t going to convince someone like Hitchens, but someone like me as a young adult who had only heard those points that questioned the historical accuracy of the scriptures it can be invaluable. There are varying degrees of apologetics, but certainly Anthony Flew has been impacted to at least an extent by the highest level of the discipline. He may not be a Christian (or at least yet) but it has convinced him of the validity of the existence of God.

  21. jlo says:

    “There’s a time & place for it all, in my book. Fish with the bait that’s appropriate.”

    Doing a little fishing on another blog right now, and would appreciate prayer coverage. Using a mixture of apologetics, Gods word, and good old fashion love thy neighbor.

  22. Lutheran says:

    Different strokes for different folks, that’s for sure.

    I like one of the Lutheran apologists’ approach, Craig Parton. He talks about ‘soft
    apologetics’ — folks who likes the arts, movies, literature, etc. Pointing out
    Christian themse in different media to these folks.

  23. Tim says:

    jlo –
    Don’t know if it’s too late or not, but I’m praying.

  24. jlo says:

    Thanks Tim, it’s never too late. Actually I’ve been having this conversation off and on for about a week now. He keeps trying to insult me to the point of giving up; his favorite thing to call me is retard. I plan on continuing the conversation as long as he is willing, regardless of the insults he hurls.

  25. filbertz says:

    I hope it wasn’t my iPad jokes that caused the site to crash…those apple guys can be pretty ornery. 😉

    It is my observation that there are a lot of angry people out there, perhaps more than there has been for a long time. Tempers seem to be short and grudges long. It is a wonderful season to model faith, hope, and love…not in the ding-dong bumpersticker sense, but a foundational back-to-basics simple non-frills no-nonsense gospel way. It isn’t about expressing confidence in a political party or candidate or financial reformation, but stripping our walk with Christ to those three greatest characteristics.

  26. Sarah says:

    Mothership is back up….

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