The Weekend Word

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47 Responses

  1. Em says:

    Okay, since this is open blog…
    If you’re feeling under attack today – weary of the hassle – i just read a news item…
    An Indonesian woman disappeared while gardenening… They finally found her…. in the belly of a python… Oh Lord, i could have done without that story today, but as i’m home alone thought i’d share it here. ?

  2. Em says:

    Now this is weird … This littke tablet is not my friend – sorry MLD, thot i tapped open blog. ?

  3. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well, that shines a light on her “last day”.

  4. Em says:

    MLD… A last day that i pray i don’t experience… ?

    If one has considered all the aspects of the use of the word “mystery” in our Scriptures and has come to the same view as MLD describes above, fine. However, if one hasn’t considered the argument for the Church, the Bride of Christ as unique and a mystery (a major ond) then you’re missing some sound arguments coming out of the dispensation camp no matter where your mind settles on this matter.
    FWIW, i haven’t found dear MLD’s synopses of any dispensational tenet to line up with what i’ve been taught…. But the old DTS folks aren’t too popular around here…
    It is too bad we put people in boxes and slap labels on the boxes – IMHO.. again ?

    Good to see some longer comment threads on MLD’s teaching here as, no matter what interpretation seems correct, one does need a reasoned familiarity with this book in these times… As long as you don’t sell all your goods, buy a supply of beef
    jerky and head for a for a tent mountain top … LOL

  5. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    If you have such difficulty seeing your view in what I describe as dispensationalism perhaps you may wish to reconsider if you are indeed a dispensationalist.
    Even with you suggesting I don’t see the mystery as the church, you may want to go back and review my 4th, 5th, and 6th bullet points under verse 7.
    Where I differ here with the dispensationalist is their view the church is a bookmark to hold God’s place for Israel at a later date, but instead that the mystery of the Church is that now God’s people consists of Jew and Gentile —- until the end – not temporal.
    God’s people, once called Israel (basically Jews) now called the Church (Jews and Gentiles) forever.

  6. Em says:

    MLD, there are many mysteries, the grandest is the Church.
    Your comment that those of us who see the Church as a unique category, see it as a “bookmark” proves my point. I don’t want to mention the teacher I’ve learned my view of dispensation from as he is not accepted as a valid teacher here, but maybe you should read what he’s taught on the subject as it sure is not anything close to what your view of the dispensations are or what the Church is
    Thank God, we mostly agree on the purpose of it, tho.

    God keep

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The colonel RB Thieme was right out of DTS and very heavy into Lewis Sperry Chafee.
    Thieme at one time was a teacher of Hal Lindsey – in fact it may have been Thieme who convinced Lindsey to go to DTS.
    I don’t understand why you deny what I say. Most dispensationalist I have conversed with go toe to toe with me – not denying what I say but to gallantry explain to me the church as the great parenthesis in God’s plan – and God’s plan for the ages through Israel once the church is removed.

  8. Josh The Baptist says:

    “Church is that now God’s people consists of Jew and Gentile —- until the end – not temporal.”

    Yes, we all agree wit that.

  9. Em says:

    Since you brought up the man’s name and with apologies to Michael….
    For the record Hal Lindsey and RB Thieme had parted ways before Lindsey started writing (very likely Thieme would have encouraged Lindsey to study at Dallas Theological Semjnary). Pastor Thieme did not approve of Lindsey’s exploitation of end times prophetic theories. Thieme’s own son, after a military career, is a graduate of Western Seminary in Portland, OR …. as far as i know, he did so with his father’s blessing.
    There is much misinformation spread regarding Thieme. While i have benefited from Donald Grey Barnhouse and Walter Martin, Martin’s Bible Answer Man has been guilty of doing so. Was Thieme infallible? Do i agree with every observation that i heard from him? No to both.
    He was, without a doubt, a gifted teacher with an honest love of God and His word…. In my estimation… My late husband and i are indebted to him for grounding our faith.
    If you wish to press this further, you’ll be talking to the wind, MLD

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Wind, 😉
    You brought him up indirectly. Look, I read 5 or 6 of his books in the early 90s – whenever Dan Quayle was VP. He to some degree but especially his wife Marilyn was deep into Thieme. That peaked my interest as I was a pretty conservative evangelical at the time. I may be wrong but I think Kathy Lee Gifford had an affiliation also.
    I know what these guys taught very well. The fact that Lindsey may have exploited or fantasied the position does not negate the position, that God created the church while he set Israel aside to be brought into some type of fullness at a later time. At that later time they will be restored Israel and not the church.

    You seem much like an evangelical that comes into Calvinism but doesn’t like a couple of the 5 points – so they say “I am a 3 point or a 4 point Calvinist.” No, they either buy all 5 points or they are not a Calvinist.

    The same with some dispies, you can’t pick and choose. (Well actually, this is America so folks can just piece it together.)

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, I will need to check it out. So you contend that restored Israel becomes The Church?

  12. I contend that there are several different ways to use the word “church”. If by church you mean all believers of all time, then yes, it will include Jews and Gentiles.

  13. “The same with some dispies, you can’t pick and choose. ”

    No, you totally can. Show me two dispensationalist teachers and I will find disagreements within their teachings.

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh I don’t think you’re being fair to the dispensationalist position. Here’s my direct question so when the church is removed and God begins to work with the nation is really again and the nation Israel is restored do they those particular Jews become a part of the church. I realize that Jews are in the church today I’m an example of that I guess when I want to know is if there’s the church and restored is rough but I get to choose which one I want to be in?

  15. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    That’s why I added a little tagline that in America anybody can claim anything and still call themselves a certain type of group such as dispensationalist. The progressive dispensationalist which I think most dispensationalists disagree with is come full circle and her back to being Covenant theologians again which is currently opposite of what dispensationalism stands for.

  16. “when the church is removed and God begins to work with the nation is really again and the nation Israel is restored do they those particular Jews become a part of the church.”

    In the sense that you are using the word “church”, yes.

    “if there’s the church and restored is rough but I get to choose which one I want to be in?”

    No.

    @15 – Creative thinking on your part. Wrong, but creative.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well since you understand how I am using the word church why don’t you explain how you use the word church.?

    Shirley dispensationalist used to turn the church in a way that keeps it separate from the restored nation of Israel at the end of times. So explain to me that church because the way I use it is the church that was ruptured and is no longer on Earth does the resort nation of Israel become a part of that group?

  18. “Well since you understand how I am using the word church why don’t you explain how you use the word church.?”

    I use the word in several different ways, depending on how the scripture is using it.

    I think you are using it to mean “all believers at alll times” which is a perfectly good scriptural usage of the word. In other places at other times, it is used in different ways.

  19. “So explain to me that church because the way I use it is the church that was ruptured and is no longer on Earth does the resort nation of Israel become a part of that group?”

    I think what you are objecting to is what dispensationalists would call the “church age”. That is what ends at the rapture. In that sense, the church is gone after that. You would have to go back in time to be part of that “church”. In the sense that the church is all believers at all times, then yes, any who come to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, before or after the rapture, are part of that.

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How can I become a part of the church that no longer exists. The church age is over the Church no longer exists?

  21. If you insist that every time the word “church” is used it means the exact same thing, then there will always be descepencies. However, in the bible “church” is used in a few different ways, and certianly outside the bible we have used it in tons of ways.

    So yes, by one definition, the church ends at the rapture, but by another definition, the church never ends. I agree that could be confusing.

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am trying to be consistent with this conversation I use the term Church in the way that a dispensationalist would use it. Let me try this if the dispensationalist says that the church and Israel must be held as distinct which they do, as you always hear people saying and you have said it plenty of times Israel means Israel and the church is the church. So I’m using the church that way. Will that church and the restored nation of Israel become one?
    I’ll need to get back to you later I’m 2 hours into my 3-hour walk oxygen levels are getting low so I’ll get back to you then.

  23. “Will that church and the restored nation of Israel become one?”

    No, in that sense the church is complete, here purpose is fulfilled and she has been raptured. The restored nation of Israel occurs after that in the Millenial Kingdom.

    Chafer says about it:
    “Israel’s glorious restoration in the millennial kingdom will follow the second advent of Christ and continue throughout the thousand years of Christ’s reign on earth.

    The importance of understanding the four stages of Israel’s restoration is seen in the fact that the first stage has already taken place and the second stage will most probably not take place until after the church is raptured. The stage is being set for dramatic end-time events in which Israel will have a major role.”

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – that is the only sense I have ever spoken of – that the church and Israel are eternally separate.

    I have this description of the next dispensation – #7 the millennial kingdom – before you read it, I will bring up 2 questions.
    1.) it will identify the 2 inhabiting groups – “the born-again believers from the Age of Grace and righteous survivors of the seven years of tribulation.” — are these 2 groups united at the end of the millennial age? If so what are they called as the church is defunct by this time.
    2.) It will say that there are no “unsaved” people allowed in the kingdom – so I would assume that the survivors who do go in have gone through judgment (to be declared ‘saved’). How did they go through judgment and keep their regular human bodies?

    “The seventh dispensation is called the Millennial Kingdom of Christ and will last for 1,000 years as Christ Himself rules on earth. This Kingdom will fulfill the prophecy to the Jewish nation that Christ will return and be their King. The only people allowed to enter the Kingdom are the born-again believers from the Age of Grace and righteous survivors of the seven years of tribulation. No unsaved person is allowed access into this kingdom. Satan is bound during the 1,000 years. This period ends with the final judgment (Revelation 20:11-14). The old world is destroyed by fire, and the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22 will begin.”

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Thank you for quoting Chafer. I have trouble these days getting dispensationalists to claim him. 🙂

  26. I love Chafer. I don’t agree with all he ever said, but most of it I do.

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, my post at 9:06 was hung up in moderation so I don’t know if you saw it.

  28. “the church and Israel are eternally separate.”

    No. God has different uses for them at different times throughout history.

    “are these 2 groups united at the end of the millennial age? If so what are they called as the church is defunct by this time”

    Yes, they both go into eternity. I don’t know what they are called. Citizens of heaven?

    “survivors who do go in have gone through judgment”

    No, Judgement is at the end of the millenium.

  29. Em says:

    Josh has done a good job here, but as i read MLD’s assertions with regard to dispensations and the millennial kingdom (bias?) it is clear that this is not the place to gain a clear understanding…
    However, he does present the interpretation of the book of Revelation that he has chosen well, i think

  30. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em is right – Josh has done a great job defending the dispensational position that the church is a temporary program of God and that Israel and the Church are for different purposes to different people for all time. So far we have no disagreement as to what dispensationalism teaches.

    Josh, a couple of clarifying questions.
    “the church and Israel are eternally separate.” – No. God has different uses for them at different times throughout history. – So, separate but equal?

    “survivors who do go in have gone through judgment” – No, Judgement is at the end of the millenium. – So if no judgment has taken place, how was it determined who the unsaved were that are not allowed into the kingdom. It would seem at the very least a sheep / goats type judgment would have taken place to determine entry.

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    Have you ever read Walvood or Chafer on the millennium? I have.
    https://www.amazon.com/Millennial-Kingdom-John-F-Walvoord/dp/031034090X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

  32. Em says:

    #31 – MLD, then there ight maybe a reading problem? ?

    # 30 – For the record in my camp there is nothing temporary about a 2,000+ year operation in the plan of God… Church (capital ‘c’) is a genius design in God’s plan… Holy Spirit born again and adopted sons (generic) tasked with keeping God’s Truths alive and disseminated on planet earth … Foolish and common folk given such a holy task? My advice is do not play loose with this miracle to advance your view.

    Now im done. ?

  33. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, trust me – I know what the position presents – I taught it for 20 yrs, had all the books (until my move to AZ) Even Josh agreed above @28 that the church after the Church Age is defunct. Look your position has the church only in the Church Age – that is the 6th dispensation. I used to tease that Israel is Plan A and the church is God’s plan B – but if you count to the 6th dispensation, I should actually say Israel is God’s plan A while the church is God’s Plan F.

    Em, so do you know how the Jews, the people of the earth enter the millennium after judgment and still retain their actual human bodies? This is unheard of in Christian doctrine. I won’t even bring up the 2nd Fall scenario that dispensationalists boast of after living in the perfect environment for 1000 yrs with Jesus, they follow Satan in rebellion (the 2nd Fall).- well I guess I did bring it up 🙂

    Get Walvoord’s book on the Millennium – heck, he was the DTS leader for 34 yrs until 1986 after Chafer’s death.

  34. Em says:

    MLD, one.would be better served in understanding dispensation by doing their own research than to accept your summation of same. Did you teach dispensation for 20 years? That’s too bad!

    You ask how the Jew can enter the millennium in a mortal body? The same way every other Believer from that time period will. I believe you teach that Believers will be preserved thru the intensified period of tribulation on this earth? Exactly correct! ? But now we part company in our view as i don’t think the Church, as my side defines it, is here when the wrath of God is poured out onto earth.
    The Church, the Bride of Christ, is occupied with her groom.
    Then comes the 1,000 years of Jesus Christ running the earth’s affairs, then the final judgment of man. FWIW… I find this scenario works with Scripture and shows the fairness of God – His very thorough fairness.
    Will i be upset if your camp, the majority down thru the years since our Lord’s ascension, prove to have been right? No. No, but my money is on a millennial reign.

    I wish you could just teach your view, which you do very well, i think, and refrain from tossing in swipes that distort facets of dispensation. Then i could concentrate on what you’re teaching about amillennialism ?

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, you might take note that every week I present my teaching and every week you object and tell me I am wrong. You never present your position – just tell me I am wrong. I continually ask clarifying questions – such as how the Jews enter this supposed earthly kingdom with their fleshy bodies? Some form of judgment must have taken place before entering. Surely you are not suggesting that unsaved Jews are also ushered into this kingdom — or are you.

    Judgment takes place upon the return of Christ. Please read Matt 24:31-46. By Jesus’ very words I challenge you to show me the earthly 1000 yr reign of Jesus. It is return, separation, judgment and immediate dispatch to an eternal destination.

    If you want to discuss Jesus ruling from David’s throne, check out Peter’s sermon Acts 2 from around v.20 onward(I don’t remember the exact address) – Peter’s conclusion is that Jesus is reigning from David’s throne at that very moment. What are you expecting upon Jesus’return in the clouds – that he is driving a U- Haul with the actual throne?

    I will admit, the idea of spiritual body people living amongst fleshy humans for 1000 yrs while the repopulate the earth gives me the creeps.

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Got one stuck in moderation with 2 links.

  37. Em says:

    MLD, your dear wife must be a saint of a high order ? or you’re messing with me…

    The mortals preserved thru the intensified tribulation period – who don’t get wiped out when our Lord returns, the ones who survive to repopulate the planet are Believers…. Eternal judgement is not an issue at that point
    Now i may not be the brightest bulb in the pack, but whether it fits your view or not, if you still say i’m not making sense…?…. I give up…
    He’s all yours Josh the B…. either way… I’m done here
    God keep

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, it’s not that you don’t make sense, it’s that you never offer up a Biblical passage to support what you believe.
    Got anything that earthly flesh people go into this kingdom with spiritual bodied people?

    Not just you, I will take it from anyone.
    Now back to the U-Haul. 🙂

  39. *reading my own comments*

    *reading MLD’s recap of my comments*

    Uhhhh, huh?

    Wow, I got MLD-d 🙂

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh if you need to walk back your comments about the church in the idea of the church and Israel distinction and take another run at it I’ll listen.

    But you did say in your comment above that you were agreed with my description of dispensationalism that the church and its function isfulfilled and complete at the time of the rapture and that they are somehow no longer called The Church in the sense still of church and Israel and that you even suggested that this new group of church and Israel are. called something like the people of Heaven.
    Or perhaps we are done 🙂

  41. You can call it the church if you want.

    Are you stuck on the word “church”? If you call God’s people anything else, is that somehow disqualifying?

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, I am not hung up on the word church at all. Words after all are just descriptions of concepts. The entity commonly called the church is also called the sheep, the virgins, the bride of Christ and you probably know of a couple of others.
    Our difference here is that I see the sheep as healthy, vibrant, fully functional and spot on doing God’s purposes throughout redemptive history until the 2nd coming and the consummation of all things. These same virgins will reside with Christ in heaven as his bride.
    On the other hand, dispensationalist see a function and purpose for the entity called the church for s specific time period alone, in a separate dispensation called, The Age of Church or of Grace – no different from the 5 previous dispensation – depending on the numbering system that ranges from 3 to 9.

    My only question to you has been what is the disposition of that group after their dispensation is over? All the others have been temporary also.

  43. Eternal life?

    I’m not fully following.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I did not bring eternal life into question – I don’t know why you did.
    In my theology, the church, the bride of Christ does exist into eternity.
    The dispensation of the church seems to indicate differently as it is a dispensation that comes and goes like all the other dispensations.
    I have come to the conclusion that you know what you believe and you do fine defending it. I do not think you understand what dispensationalism teaches as they are quite specific – except the progressives who have returned to covenant theology.

  45. “In my theology, the church, the bride of Christ does exist into eternity.”

    Dispensationalism believes this too. All those, Jew and Gentile, who make up the church in this age will live eternally with Christ.

    “I do not think you understand what dispensationalism teaches”

    Um, Ok. 🙂

  46. “My only question to you has been what is the disposition of that group after their dispensation is over? ”

    “Eternal life” was the answer to this question.

  47. “Josh has done a great job defending the dispensational position”

    “I do not think you understand what dispensationalism teaches”

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