Things I Think
1. It’s well worth the time to read Wenatchee The Hatchet’s article on Dave Bruskas beg letter stating that Mars Hill “really needs your help”… just days after Driscoll closed on a million dollar home. My question would then be why in the name of everything holy anyone would support either one of these hucksters with their giving?
Why in the world, Albuquerque, are you letting this guy come back to your town and set up shop again? How can you believe a word that comes out of anyone associated with Mars Hill leadership unless they are words of confession and repentance? All of the media attention has thus far been on Driscoll…but all his assistants are as guilty of crimes against the Body of Christ as he is.
2. This made a lot of people angry when I wrote it the other day, thus, I will write it again. The Bible contains objective truth, but it is discerned subjectively by fallen people using subjective methods and traditions. Outside of the core beliefs of Christianity we each have a set of doctrines and dogmas that we have arrived at by these means. The proper response to this truth is grace toward all those who agree on the core essentials, not war on those whose subjective opinions differ from mine. Those who are willing to die on the hills of secondary doctrines need to be willing to die alone.
3. The correct answer to the question “where is America in bible prophecy?” is how the hell would I know? The Bible doesn’t mention America…or Mexico or Canada or the Stanley Cup playoffs. I’m sure God is fond of them all, but didn’t think they needed to be in the book.
4. My problem with standard dispensational eschatology is that it requires the creation and constant updating of an enemies list. We’ve spent a couple of generations now playing pin the tail on the anti-Christ and declaring people outside the tradition false teachers and purveyors of the doctrines of demons. As the Lord tarries, old names drop off and new ones are added…without apologies to all those slandered before.
5. I’ll say one good thing about the Christmas season…it is the one time when we are collectively looking forward to something positive. There, I did it…
6. Whenever I see a celebrity pastor do a “special” message on end times prophecy, I take it as a sure sign that donations are down…
7. The Gospel is about God choosing to love unlovable people…thus, we are never more Christ like then when we do likewise. When we realize just how difficult that is we get a better understanding of how good the good news is…for us. Despite what my cat thinks, I’m not a lovable bundle of joy myself…
8. No one is doing more damage to the church these days than those who the church damaged first…
9. One of the stranger paradoxes of the Christian life is that the older you get and more knowledge you acquire the more child like your faith becomes…
10. Eric Metaxes has a new book out on miracles that looks interesting, but I haven’t read it because when I see his name I think “right wing political activist”…
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
FIRST! Amen X 10
Bob…you’re back in the “first” groove… 🙂
#6
I would also add attendance.
Agreed
Michael,
I had a brief brake. And that isn’t an underwear change. 🙂
Profound: “No one is doing more damage to the church these days than those who the church damaged first…”
We’ve spent a couple of generations now playing pin the tail on the anti-Christ
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I thought so-called “standard” dispensational eschatology speaks to the anti-Christ not being revealed until after the rapture. I recognize theories about the office (i.e. a future Pope) are rampant.
But hasn’t any speculation of who personally might be the anti-Christ (i.e. Napoleon etc) taken place by non-dispensational Christians in the past? And of course, I recognize most amills discount a personal anti-Christ/world leader character anyway
Steve,
I’ve heard everyone from Kissinger and Gorbachov to some Spanish prince to Obama named as “the one”…
The Reformed, both Lutherans and Calvinists traditionally believed it was the pope.
Michael,
Stop ragging on the 505, man. The MH folks here are just like an other group of folks who choose to remain uninformed. We look at past success/fruitfulness/church growth and think: “We can do that too!” without counting the cost or methodology or recent nefariousness.
Very human.
Especially when you take into account the mortgage.
It’s just another example of being attracted to glitter, even if it has been tarnished a bit.
See Bob, you’re still pushing the underwear theme. 😉
Michael,
How the heck do you reconcile your statement at #2 and the takeaway at #6? Why can’t that just be his secondary take on end times and how it should be handled?
MLD,
I do it very easily.
Special messages on “holiness” or “suffering” don’t draw crowds…speculation does.
Laura,
I’ve always tried to help inform the 505… 🙂
Michael,
Indeed. 🙂
“Special messages on “holiness” or “suffering” don’t draw crowds…speculation does.”
Hence the issue with non liturgical churches – the message title / topic is the draw … not the reception of good gifts God delivers each meeting.
MLD,
I think that’s a valid criticism…
I’ve read quite a few thinking Putin is the man of sin. Not married (Dan. 11:37), and has close ties to the Gog & Magog nations.
If you look for anyone other than Jesus in Bible prophecy you pretty much missed the point.
I can’t even get passed numbers 1 and 2 without stopping to shout a huge, “AMEN!!!!!!” The reprehensible money-stealers and the doctrinal in-fighting are among major reasons why some people are driven away from the church, and in many cases, christianity altogether. Sick of it!!!!
The 49ers believe that Richard Sherman is the antichrist.
#3 and #4: It’s that kind of stuff that has caused me to just look the other way when anything of an eschatological nature is promoted or even mentioned…even if I agree with it. It’s just not on my radar these days.
Babs,
“If you look for anyone other than Jesus in Bible prophecy you pretty much missed the point.”
Amen … if you are in the Jesus dispensation. However, some are in the Israel or the anti Christ dispensation. 🙂
You need the chart!!
I’m not sure how suprising it is that we end up playing “pin the tail on the anti-christ”. If we look back through Scripture we see many people who were types of Jesus, the Christ, it only seems natural that as we look through history we will see those who are types of the anti-christ.
The way that I read, it seems like the anti-christ is set up as a counterfeit Christ, and how many of the evil tyrants that we have seen through history have gained power in this very way.
With regard to #2. If we believe that it is still necessary to die over secondary doctrines today, then we’ve truly failed to understand the power of Christ’s redeeming death at Calvary 2000 years ago. May Christ’s bride this side of heaven truly see herself as He sees her.
The funny thing is – there is no ‘The Anti Christ’ in the scriptures.
MLD,
That’s like the argument that the word ‘trinity” isn’t in the Bible.
The Bible clearly speaks of an end time figure who is anti-Christ.
“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 ESV)
and the reason we don’t just refer to him as The Man of Sin is why…?
or the Man of Lawlessness?
Technically, that would be more correct.
Still, the point stands.
Number 5 !! Wow…..a Christmas miracle!! 😉
Number 9….yep
“Man of Sorrows,” what a name
For the Son of God who came
Ruined sinners to reclaim!
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Bearing shame and scoffing rude,
In my place condemned He stood;
Sealed my pardon with His blood;
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Guilty, vile, and helpless, we,
Spotless Lamb of God was He;
Full redemption—can it be?
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Lifted up was He to die,
“It is finished!” was His cry;
Now in heaven exalted high;
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
When He comes, our glorious King,
To His kingdom us to bring,
Then anew this song we’ll sing
Hallelujah! what a Savior! (Phillip P. Bliss)
Not all dispensationalists are date setters, anti-Christ identifiers, or end-times qualifiers, nor does its subscription require them to do so.
Subjectivity is what everyone else does…my tribe is completely in tune with objective Truth. 😉
#6, …or he has a book coming out.
“pin the tail on the anti-Christ”
LOL!!!
Hence the issue with non liturgical churches – the message title / topic is the draw
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Hence the beauty of teaching chapter by chapter, book by book, through the entire Bible….like (some) non liturgical churches.
As far as prophecy, pretty sure Antiochus Epiphanes wasn’t Jesus…pretty sure he is definitely a part of prophetic Scripture, and pretty sure he is a type of the coming antichrist.
Not to mention Alexander the Great, Cyrus and other political individuals in history that are a part of the prophetic picture of the Bible. Unless some of you are becoming higher critics now and think Daniel was written by some 1st century BC Jew 😉
OK, kids, here’s your christmas gift early…
http://nathanfriend.io/inspirograph/
On to happier evangelical news – are Tim Tebow and Jana Duggar dating (I don’t know who she is)?
‘Fans of both were hopeful that the young evangelical Christians would get together, forming perhaps one of the most famous super-couples.”
Totally trekking with your faith journey, Mr. Newnham.
Profit-cy Updates!
…I’ve been in the Mecca of Bible Prophecy over many years. I can tell you, first hand, the whole thing is a sham. It’s a brand and it’s as much of Babylon as anything in the commercial world.
Neo
#38
right on!
G Man. Religion is every bit a part of the Beast’s domain as Empire. Image is everything.
Judging you brothers is bad, unless you disagree with them. Then consign them right to Hell!
Image: taking a partial truth and distorting it beyond reality.
LOL. The funny thing about these hucksters and their prophecy updates is that they are a part of the system themselves.
….and finally, I wish Michael could make a sustainable income off this website. He’s more than earned it. Such is the nature of the beast. : /
Michael could make money on the website if he used his cats – I heard this morning that “Grumpy Cat” has earned his owner $100 million. I need to check that out to see if it is true.
True?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/grumpy-cat-first-100-million-172453659.html;_ylt=A0SO8yoUFYZURRoAiGFXNyoA
The “man of lawlessness” point only stands if it is true. Whenever we say “the bible clearly speaks” we have a shot at getting it right… you could for example say “about God, about Jesus, or about the church” but when you say “about an end times________________” you have left the category of “the Bible clearly speaks”
I really did laugh out loud as I typed…
The Bible doesn’t even clearly speak about the “end times…”
Is the end times future? as in the end of the world?
Is the end times past? as in the end of covenant Israel?
Is the end times about creation?
Is the end times about the finish of redemption?
Anyway… had to do it since Michael speaks so reverently of other folks and their end times updates.
“Is the end times past? as in the end of covenant Israel?”
Well, we all know that it is clear as can be that the above is what Matt 24 is all about.
Revelation 18
‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
This was talking about Rome, but perhaps also about every superpower to come, America included.
Specifically this chapter looks like a stockmarket crash, something the first century knew little about. This prophecy has been fulfilled a number of times over the years. Will there be a bigger one as we near the end? Maybe.
Maybe church superpowers that make people rich are also in the firing line.
Is Eric Metaxes a Christian or is he some politico who writes like Bill O’Reilly about ‘spiritual’ things. I don’t know the guy, but I just looked at his web site and couldn’t tell.
Some of these guys use Christianity as some sort of street cred with the right.
I guess he is a Christian – I see he writes for Veggie Tales – which by the way, I watched for the first time ever with 2 of my granddaughters —- Tomato Bob is the bomb!
MLD
It’s Bob the Tomato
So, Israel needs to rebuild the temple? If they did so, would God refer to it as the temple of God? I don’t understand why people believe this stuff, particularly when the event already happened.
and have sacrifices. Jesus was the way for Christians – but once the Church is out of the way, God will see if he can get them stubborn Jews to do it His way … this time.
Bob the Sweat – are you really contradicting what my 3 yr old granddaughter told me his name was? Shame on you. — or perhaps I wasn’t paying attention. 🙂
Jim, don’t listen to MLD’s spin on things. He likes to jump in and stir the pot. 😉 He knows better what we actually believe….
Are you aware of the Temple Institute project (MLD likes to dismiss them as a bunch of nuts but actually they are Jews – not Messianic or evangelical dispys)
https://www.templeinstitute.org/statement.htm
I don’t have the slightest doubt that if anyone came along 150 years ago and said “So Israel needs to become a nation again. I don’t understand why people believe this stuff” it would have gotten a rousing amen.
Off to teach….(not prophecy though 🙂 )
My 17 grandchildren say Bob the Tomato. 🙂
OK, it’s not like the Jews didn’t screw it up the first time around – now you are going to interpret Bible prophecy by what the Temple Institute says?
This is our difference – I read Bible Prophecy by what Jesus and the Apostles said whereas Dispensationalist are more comfortable reading the NT in light of the OLD – even to the point that you use an apostate Jewish group to do your interpreting for you.
Bob the Sweat – I looked it up. I was wrong, he is Bob the Tomato. Hey how come they are all Bobs – Bob the Builder 🙂
MLD is being silly again….Right now a bunch of unbelieving Jews are itching to build an unbelieving temple in unbelieving Jerusalem to worship their Jesus-less unbelieving religion.
And another unbelieving political leader with unite with an unbelieving religious leader to make it happen.
That’s not headline news prophecy hunting…it’s called taking your head out of the sand.
Sure, totally farfetched. As hard to imagine as..say…Iran launching an attack on Israel.
Anyway, I was just answering Jim who asked how anyone can imagine such a thing happening today. Well, I can imagine it. Apparently a well-funded and motivated Jewish group of rabbis can imagine it too. All we need is the political leader to work the deal.
MLD…deep down…you know that if Marty were alive today, he would be a dispy. He was a smart dude. 🙂
Remind me again though..which nation is it you always compare Israel to when it comes to Bible prophecy? Is it Peru? I think it is Peru. I like to use it in the occasional message illustration and don’t want to misquote you. 🙂
Steve,
Whatever they build, it won’t be a temple of God, right?
Is Mark Driscoll going to start a new group in Albuquerque ?
Jim…..MLD
Why don’t you Google……The Temple Institute.The Orthodox Rabbis in Israel are very serious about rebuilding the Temple………
Whatever they build, it won’t be a temple of God, right?
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That’s right. The millennial temple is not the same as the ungodly 3rd temple to come.
The reason for the millennium is for God to fulfill the covenant promises He has made.
Pretty simple really.
“For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”
I have no doubt that the Jews may build a temple. My question is, why would a Christian consider this a temple of God. Would God?
I contend that this can not possibly be a future event, as no structure can be considered the temple of God.
So Steve, what Paul refers to as the temple of God is the same structure that you call the ungodly 3rd temple.
Why was Chuck Smith and many in CC so hot to trot to help rebuild this temple? Create a herd of red heifers, contribute to the collecting temple utensils etc? Don Stewart and Chuck Missler wrote a book about it.
“The reason for the millennium is for God to fulfill the covenant promises He has made.”
Now this is (to use your word) silly – The covenant was broken so badly by the Jews that by the time of Jeremiah we see God saying (I paraphrase in quote marks) “I give up – I will now make a new covenant, one that will be unbroken and not in need of fixing.”
Now to be honest, if I remember correctly you taught that when the topic of ‘new covenant’ came up in Hebrews that you denied that this included the Church (if I am wrong, I apologize)
Now, if the temple is to be rebuilt in the ‘millennium’ to fulfill a promise to the Jews – it is just rebuilding that middle wall of separation that the Bible says Jesus tore down.
MLD’s 67 is a question I have had also. My CC pastor teaches that any 3rd temple built will not be “God’s temple.” It will be an abomination to God because we are the temple of God. So I have never understood why some people in CC were giving money to help rebuild the temple and breed the red heifers,collect the utensils, etc. I’m not mocking….Serious question.
I don’t doubt it happened, but I never once in my 21 years in CC have heard of anyone big in CC pastoral circles giving money to rebuild the temple, and in looking at the alphabetical “donor’s wall” on the website, which lists what must be a few thousand names…I do not see a Charles/Chuck Smith, or Stewart or Missler. Yes, I have heard them talk about it of course.
JIm, as to temple of God, why would the 2nd temple after the tearing of the veil be still called the temple of God? I have a very hard time seeing prophetic fulfillment, and for that matter, any meaning if you have a pre-70 AD fulfillment to Paul’s words you cite, so that label hardly bothers me for the intent of communication. The Jews certainly THINK they are building the temple of God, just like the sacrifices that continued after the cross were carried on by Jews in unbelief who thought all was status quo. My response to you was that it is a temple as they are in unbelief.
MLD thinks the unconditional covenants are conditional, that Israel forfeited them…and that is his right. He goes to a church that does not teach through the Old Testament to wrestle with God’s prophetic word on a verse by verse, word by word, basis to see how impossible it is to make everything already a done deal.
My teaching on the New Covenant in Hebrews is online to listen to. I’m only up because I picked up my boy late who just got back from Pearl Harbor and participating in the remembrance services there this past weekend. So I will defer to my recording… 🙂
MLD thinks the unconditional covenants are conditional, that Israel forfeited them…and that is his right
——————————————-
Keep in mind he also thinks salvation is conditional and it can be forfeited as well
“MLD thinks the unconditional covenants are conditional, that Israel forfeited them…and that is his right. He goes to a church that does not teach through the Old Testament…”
1.) I don’t think Israel forfeited anything. As a Christian who sees Jesus Christ as the sum and substance of scripture, I know for a fact that all of the prophecies are fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ.
2.) What is to wrestle with? – the NT writers explained in NT terms where the OT prophecies were directed and how they were fulfilled.
Again, I won’t say right or wrong but only point to the differences. I stand firmly on the thought and theology that Jesus is the star of the OT – he is not co starring with the nation Israel.
Steve, I thought I remembered that back in the 80’s that the leader of Temple Mount spoke at CCCM and I thought the church gave a bunch of money to support them. Everyone was talking about the red heifers being bred and how exciting it was that people were getting all the temple gear needed for a new temple and it was ushering in the last days. When we went to Israel with a CC tour, we visited the Temple Mount group and saw their exhibitions.
So today I googled some of those key words and found lots of articles about the Temple Mount faithful and Chuck Smith, etc.
(I was beginning to wonder if my memory was that faulty)
The covenant was broken so badly by the Jews that by the time of Jeremiah we see God saying (I paraphrase in quote marks) “I give up – I will now make a new covenant, one that will be unbroken and not in need of fixing.”
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Your words…MLD
As for the Mars Hill… well it is a new day… all the information is out there. So people choose,
it reminds me of,
Bill Cosby’s exposure which causes us to see that we are living in a different day. You will no longer be tried merely in a courtroom but for all to see.
I also found out via internet that my friend Donny Pauling
has been arrested and charged with abusing a minor who lived in his home
I am devastated by the news, I yet hope it is errant and false, I did not know him well but thought him to be true. If not then…what? There is nothing to do but sorrow and help the weak and go forward
Now as for eschatology…
I really think the shelf life on the pretrib view is running out…I think like so many things it suffers at the hands of its friends. And the emergence of credible and less sensational viewpoints supersede(there is that word) it.
I have a friend who reminds me that on our best days we manage ourselves well. Let’s keep mercy at the head of every table even as we decry evil.
MLD,
Just wondering, in the LCMS or in your interpretation, who do you say the Israel in Galatians 6:16 is? (I struggle with the way the NLT translates this verse) Is the Israel mentioned by Paul in this verse, the Church(gentile believers) or are they the actual descendants of Abraham who believe?
The Cosby and Driscoll stories have one thing in common…money and power used to be able to cover you.
The internet has ripped off the covers…for better or worse.
“The covenant was broken so badly by the Jews that by the time of Jeremiah we see God saying (I paraphrase in quote marks) “I give up – I will now make a new covenant, one that will be unbroken and not in need of fixing.””
This seems to say that Jesus was plan B. Now, I know that MLD doesn’t believe that so I won’t put those words in his mouth, but for someone else reading, I think that would be the takeaway.
Jesus was, is, and will always be the only plan.
Francisco
There is no reason for Paul to designate Israel as being “the Israel of God” if he was not working a redefinition of Israel that was consistent with his Gospel throughout the letter to the Galatians in which he clearly defines God’s covenant family around Jesus and not around natural descent.
It is the same in Romans where Paul plainly tells us that being Abraham’s kin does not make you his family. In Romans he clearly defines the family of God around having received the Spirit.
Galatians 3:14 defines Abrahams family in the Holy Spirit.
This truth is so obvious in scripture and it has been so obfuscated by racial interpretations.
Josh,
He is not saying that Jesus is plan B he is saying that Israel never was plan A.
Romans makes it plain… first Paul tell us the sons of Adam are a wreck so
God sent Abraham… only problem is that the sons of Abraham are as bad as Adam’s
Jesus is the one son of Adam of Abraham who can help us.
Jeremiah’s new covenant definitely says that the OLD COVENANT was the inferior plan the law of Moses and has been superseded by PLAN A which was and is to get the law off the stone onto our heart. Jesus served the best wine LAST.
Right, Bab. I think you are agreeing with me. MLD’s poor paraphrase (“I give up”) points towards God changing His mind. “Hey, I wanted to do this thing with Israel, but y’all are such screw-ups I just can’t take it anymore. Let’s try this Jesus thing instead”.
Now, I already laid the disclaimer that I don’t think MLD believes that. Just what it sounded like.
Hebrews also states that we have a Better Covenant. I don’t think that should even be ups for conversation.
I DO however think Israel was chosen for a PURPOSE, and I think that purpose is fulfilled. In fact, I’d say that is 90% of the story of the Old Testament – God preserves Israel, because when the time is right, that will be the lineage through which Jesus arrives.
Hi Babylon,
I do appreciate the feedback. This interpretation is where many of us differ in terms of Covenant Theology vs. Dispensational Theology. (the church and Israel being two separate people but one people of God vs. one) This said as much as this area may be important to some of us it is not one of the essential tenants of the Christian Faith.
Be blessed
fco
My point with my paraphrase was not so much accuracy but to demonstrate that what Steve called an eternal covenant was not eternal … it was broken and needed to be replaced – as stated by Jeremiah..
To answer Francisco – the people of God have always been the same – the people of God. However, in the past they were referred to as Israel and today as the Church.
Josh, I don’t know why it is so difficult to think in terms that God wanted to do a certain thing with Israel. he wanted to deliver the kingdom to them – look at Jesus weeping over Jerusalem.
And when you speak of that better covenant in Hebrews, that was where I made the statement about Steve’s position being that the New Covenant was for Israel and not the Church, although the Church does reap some benefits by being in close proximity to Israel.
“Josh, I don’t know why it is so difficult to think in terms that God wanted to do a certain thing with Israel. he wanted to deliver the kingdom to them – look at Jesus weeping over Jerusalem.” says MLD.
God did want to do a certain thing with Israel…and He did it. It really does seem like you think God failed with plan A, so went with Jesus instead. I KNOW you don’t really believe that, but that’s what it seems you are saying. Israel, the covenant, the Kingdom…all of it is about Jesus. Always was.
Perhaps you are right and I am not clear enough. As I said earlier, Jesus is the star of the OT – he is not co staring with Israel.
What God wanted to do with Israel centered around Jesus Christ – to bring his people to Jesus and God’s salvation. God set up covenants with his people for that sole purpose … but each step of the way they broke those covenants and God, not to make a plan A or a Plan B – but to stick to THE PLAN instituted new and better covenants.
Jesus is the star, standing center stage under the spotlight – Israel is the background scenery.
That is much more clearly written.
The rebuilding of another temple, replete with a restored sacrificial order, is not Pre-Trib’s biggest Achilles’ Heel.