Things I Think

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97 Responses

  1. Erunner says:

    Real quick on number 2. Football is a violent sport and I don’t know that the refs can really make that big a difference. After what happened to the young Tulane player on Saturday (injured by a teammate) it’s tough to watch some plays as today’s players are so strong and amped to play.

    At the same time with all the $$$ the NFL rakes in I don’t see why they don’t settle as the money we’re talking about is peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

  2. Michael says:

    E…good point.
    The games are suffering as well…the integrity of the sport is on the line.

  3. witness says:

    one thing we all know is that politics is about the temporal and a real faith is about the eternal so one should question the wisdom of building walls between yourself and others over political leanings that simply do not last. Jesus never really addressed political issues but definitively addressed how we should relate to our enemies and that would include political enemies. No party has a claim on God’s endorsement and any average student of history can see plenty of evidence that commingling the church and political structures of the day only dilutes the gospel and corrupts the church. I pray that voters seek clarity on how they vote this year from the only one that knows all things. Vote, and then remember that beyond the polls, pundits, positions and platforms is a plan designed and being implemented in each of our lives and in the world itself. Ultimately, our faith should rest there and not in any political party.

  4. Michael says:



  5. 1. The Democratic party has certainly not helped itself with the Christian voters this go-round. The questionable stuff about “God-given” and Jerusalem, and then the constant pushing of gay-marriage and abortion-rights. I think the dems over-played their hand on this one. You are absolutely right, it is hard to claim that it is all about Jesus then vote for a Mormon. I respect many of my friends who are zealous in either direction, but I just could never justify either choice in my own mind.

    Love your #10.

  6. Michael says:


    It’s all just weird to me…
    The part that concerns me deeply is that the message of the Gospel is being served through the strainer of politics and comes out polluted and defiled.
    That should worry all of us who are supposed to be “ambassadors for Christ”.

  7. Michael,
    You need to have more democrat friends on FB. They say the same things about “you cannot call yourself a christian if you are a republican.
    I saw some christian dems make a case that Jesus would be for abortion because that is the only Godly way to reach young women in trouble.

    It’s not a dem thing and it’s not a GOP thing – it’s a people thing.

    I know in my church, we are pretty much equally divided dem / repub – even though we are in the heart of Orange County, because of all of the migration from places like Wis and Min. We seem to get along fine… and it is never discussed from the pulpit – not even the hot topics.

  8. Michael,
    I am a little confused. In the recent past you have made a big deal about you switch of parties, you current hate for the GOP and have been very vocal about voting Dem. So how are you different than what you criticize?
    Personally, I don’t care about how any one else votes – in 2 months it will be over and we can get back to more important things. Elections are silly – the career government workers run things.

  9. Agreed, Michael. With both sides, it often seems to come down to a “win at all costs” mentality. When I see Christians who are too involved, the cost seems to be the Gospel.

    I was a little disgusted, and a little shocked at the out-front nature of the dems abortion rhetoric last week. The thing that I find more confusing is that abortion numbers haven’t changed much under Republican or dem administrations. Which says to me that the rhetoric doesn’t really matter. We are not doing our jobs to win the hearts of those at risk, before they decide to have an abortion.

  10. Michael says:


    I have no doubt there is some truth to what you’re saying.
    I also have no doubt that evangelicals are disproportionately Republican and that’s a big reason for what I’m seeing.

  11. Sarah says:

    Honestly, this post just saddens me, and I think hastens my fast from internet activity for the month of October.

    The maligning regarding political parties comes from both sides and no one gives a crap about actually dialoging and listening. Actually, a few do, and I have had some deep conversations laced with compassion and ending with prayer, but they sure didn’t start out with name calling.

  12. Michael says:


    I’m not a Dem…independent.
    Would love to be a Dem because of the vile things that the Republicans said about the poor, unemployed, and others during my darkest hour…but that shoe doesn’t fit either.

    Politics will never be a place of comfort for me.

    I’ve prayed through the hatred…but I won’t ever forget what was said and the damage done.

  13. Michael says:


    Point well made.

  14. Michael says:


    My apology for any offense.
    While I keep hearing the claim that “both sides” are acting badly (which I can concur with) only one side is the one which claims to harbor the Gospel.
    Trying to change the hearts of those who are “pro” things the Bible is against will require supernatural power and grace, not invective and recrimination.
    It is the love of God that brings people to repentance, not the political process.

  15. Mike Aware says:

    Michael, I LOVE you brother! SO right on! I’m sharing on Facebookand gonna get people pissed! lol.

  16. jlo says:

    I love that my new church has not once mentioned anything about politics.

  17. Xenia says:

    I with Michael about the elections. If anyone saw my FB page last week you saw the level of anger (irrational anger, I feel) displayed against Christians who refuse to vote for Romney.

    A few thoughts and then I am going to resist the temptation to say more. (Ha! We know how well that’s going to work!)

    1. A few years ago, when Romney’s name was mentioned, everyone (EVERYONE) I knew said a Mormon had no chance and they could never ever vote for a Mormon. Now these same people are calling him “the savior of our country.”

    2. Why are the same people who think Obama is a Muslim okay with Romney being a Mormon?

    3. Do people realize that Romney’s campaign is being funded by a very wicked man who owns a big chunk of Las Vegas and became one of the richest men in the country through gambling, drugs and prostitution? One can only speculate what Romney has pledged to give in return for this support. Also, this rich person is an Zionist and is it crazy of me to wonder what effect this will have on US policy in the Middle East if Romney is elected? Which is ironic when you realize the Mormons believe Zion is in the state of MISSOURI.

    4. One of the main reasons I cannot support a cultist for President is because it legitimizes the cult. And if you think it doesn’t, I have a family of Baptist cousins who are now telling me that Mormons believe the Bible and have faith in Jesus and are therefore Christians. Multiply this by thousands of naive cousins all over America and you can see that the Mormon cult has, thanks to Romney, experienced a huge boost in credibility. Try to tell a Romney fan that he’s not really a Christian and see how well that goes.

    5. I remember when Calvary Chapels used to have anti-cult seminars where the evils of Mormonism were exposed. Now these very same CC pastors are telling me that if we don’t for Romney we are ruining our country.

    6. I think some people need to dust off their copy of Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults or dig out their old Calvary Chapel anti-cult seminar tapes and have a little refresher course on Mormonism. When Romney says he loves god, prays to god, god bless America, etc, this is not our God he’s talking about. He’s talking about one of millions of created beings that call themselves gods. He and his cult worship the one that’s assigned to planet earth. Romney himself plans to be a god just like the one he prays to someday.

    7. Romney cannot say the first lines of the Nicene Creed: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible. He cannot say this because his god is NOT the creator of all things and he believes in many gods.

    8. Many Christians feel they have to vote for Romney because he is (mildly) pro-life. (Unless you happen to be a baby who was conceived as the result of a rape, then you can be killed.) The abortion rate in America is high because Americans have abortions. Americans have abortions because we are a very promiscuous nation. Our promiscuity is fueled by the entertainment industry (and the devil, of course.) Turn off your TVs and quit dressing you daughters like hookers if you want abortions to decrease. If American Christians began acting like Christians I suspect the abortion rate would drop significantly. As chastity decreases abortion increases.

    9. And if Americans are so anti-abortion, why does every Crisis Pregnancy Center in the country have to beg and plead for volunteers and donations? Only a very tiny percentage of pro-life people actually volunteer at these worthy organizations. Much easier to be an arm-chair culture warrior.

    10. The lesser of two evils is still evil. We don’t have to choose evil. We can choose good, even if the good is hidden, obscured and doesn’t seem like it has any chance. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn said “Evil is coming. Let it come. But may it not come through me.”

    11, As someone said to me the other day, a good tactic by the Enemy is to propagate two lies and to get people arguing about which lie is better. That’s the American 2-party system that we have today in a nutshell.

  18. jlo says:

    As far as facebook, well that’s a whole other animal.

    For the last year I’ve watched as all my Republican friends endorsed one candidate after another, saying how they were our last great hope, only to have them drop out one after another, until Romney was the only one standing. Which I understand is the process, but in the beginning they couldn’t stand Romney or ever consider voting for him, now all I read is how wonderful he is and how he is the only hope for our nation.

  19. Michael says:


    I am clapping up here…that was beyond good stuff.

  20. Em says:

    i’m with MLD this morning on things political – considering the fact that all the players are from the same “institution of lower learning” the game is really just an intramural scrimmage – they’re like two people playing catch and we the public are that little terrier running back and forth between them trying to get a chance at the ball – tedious and sad … or so it seems to me this morning

  21. Xenia says:

    I need to make a small correction to my #10: It should read “The *lie* is coming. Let it come. But may it not come through me.”

  22. Papias says:

    Its too bad that our choices boil down to these two parties.
    Neither of them gets an enthuistic vote from me. But I will vote in Nov.
    Not that it would make a difference.

    I was encouraged last night in getting to church for a class in “NT Backgrounds.” The instructor has such a rich depth of knowledge connected with a zeal for evangelism.

    Made me miss my Packers loss to the 49rs, but that’s probably better. 😉

  23. Em says:

    two people are playing a game of catch – throwing the ball back and forth and back and forth and beneath the ball’s trajectory is a little terrier whipping back and forth trying to get his teeth into that fascinating ball … one is a Republican, one a Democrat and the dog … guess which one is us 🙂

  24. fyi says:

    Xenia, I am with Micharl on your liost–great stuff. I was listening the other day to a direct questin Romney answered about whether or not he saw anything good about Obama. His answer was this: ‘yes, I believe he is sincere about his Christian faith as I am about mine.’ Mormons have been trying to be accepted as Christians for a very long time and he made the point. Think about having a man in the office when a crisis comes-=a man who believes that he will eventually be a god of his own planet fathering the children of that planet. It’s frightening. By the way, I am NOT voting for Obama either…

  25. Xenia needs to write a book … “Common Sense for the Common Christian” … er something like that 🙂

  26. Lutheran says:

    I’m a little conflicted about the Romney/Mormon thing, too. I am a little shocked at how many evangelicals don’t seem to have a problem with voting for him. On the other hand, I’m not a fan of religious litmus tests for political candidates. After all, when JFK ran in 1960, his Catholicism was a big issue with many Americans. Some people then (and now, but many fewer, I think) would’ve seen the RCC as cultish and secretive.

    On the third hand, I’m not voting for Romney, Mormon or not. So it’s pretty much an academic thing for me.

  27. Xenia says:

    My Christian cousin (who I love very much, by the way) truly believes that the 2012 election is going to be the last election we have in America if Obama if re-elected because she truly believes that Obama is going to take over the government and turn it into a Cuba-style dictatorship. My cousin is a college graduate, by the way, not an illiterate. Another relative believes that Obama wants to hold old people down and pour some “purple liquid” down their throats to end their lives quickly to save money. Who is feeding people this nonsense? Answer: the entertainment media disguised as news commentators. Every time I visit one particular Meals on Wheels client she greets me with a new horror story, completely false. Of course, she has a talk radio station playing in the background. THIS is where people get their information, from media opportunists who have to come up with a new horror every day to keep their audiences’ adrenalin level high and keep them coming back for a new thrill every day.

  28. Xenia says:

    We didn’t have much to fear from Kennedy’s Catholicism because he was a terrible Catholic. When he looked into the camera and told America that he was not going to be directed by the Pope, boy, was he ever telling the truth. But Romney is a very good Mormon and I believe he will be affected by some of the peculiar prophecies the LDS have concerning the future of the US.

  29. before i go away, i really want to say that #17 is so full of clear thinking and common sense that you’d never know that it came from an academic: 😆 Xenia could write a best-seller common sense book IMHO

    funny things are happening between my computer and this blog site…

  30. I don’t see what Romney’s religion has to do with anything. Most people think Mormons are Christians for no other reason than they have Jesus Christ in their name. But that’s all most people know about any Christian church – something about Jesus.

    If this is the case, then I would definitely not vote for a Jew, because they are openly anti christ.

    It just does not matter.

  31. Reuben says:

    Xenia probably already said this, and I am being disrespectful in not reading it first, but I have been bursting at the seams to say this all day…

    I have never in my life seen hypocrisy like this election season. Ever. Romney is not a run of the mill Mormon. He is up the food chain. Christians yell and scream about the Mormon church taking over everything in the country, and cite Utah as example of some abomination of separation of church/state, and yell “heresy” at the top of their lungs, but obviously party trumps person here. This is not Glenn Beck, this is Mitt Romney. He is possibly the next president of the United States. He does not believe in Jesus. Hell, he does not even believe in the Bible. He believes in the Mormon church. Not one Christian on this whole planet has the right to tell me that a vote for a Liberal/Communist/Socialist/Democrat/anti-christ is a vote against Jesus this particular go around.

    NO WAY.

    Like I told Michael on FB, I have had to block news feeds. People who blatantly despise the Mormon church, and IMHO rightfully so I might add, have all but told the whole flipping FB world that hell awaits anyone who votes for the anti-christ Obama. Everyone of them will be casting their vote for a godless politician. Same difference in my book.

    My response, I vote for nobody this election.

  32. Reuben says:

    Xenia pretty much said it already.


  33. Obviously both side have no concept of the 2 kingdoms. That God can be in control of the civil realm with non christians.
    It’s why Paul could operate under Nero and Luther could say that he would rather be rules by a competent Turk instead of an incompetent christian.

  34. Lutheran says:

    One difference between the RCC and LDS is that the “latter” (ba-da-bing!) is a religion that originated here in the good ‘ole US of A. I would assume that in LDS theology, America is pretty darn tootin’ important. That could be quite problematic — but maybe not unlike extreme dispensationalism and the way they ID specific countries that figure prominently in end-times scenarios?

  35. Xenia says:

    I don’t know who I’m going to write-in this year but I am going to vote. I am interested in the mayoral election of our little town. I rather like them both so I have to do a little more research, maybe ask a few questions.

    How bad will it have to get before Republicans refuse to vote for their own candidate? As I said on FB, maybe in 2016 they’ll run a Scientologist and we’ll be hearing what great Christians they are.

    My main and only interest is the furtherance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the real One. I am interested in the salvation of souls. I don’t know that anyone will go to hell because of Obama’s vague and ambiguous religious beliefs. Basically, he’s a sectarian. His effect on people’s religious choice is about zero, in my estimation.

    However, Romney really can effect people’s religious choice. Already, as I said, my cousins (they are devout Baptists who should know better) now believe Mormonism is just another branch of Christianity although they didn’t believe this a few years ago. Any children or grandchildren within earshot now believe Mormonism is a valid choice. Children all over America are hearing their parents saying Mormonism is Christianity, not to mention people who don’t know much about Christianity at all. How many people will embrace Mormonism because they have heard that it’s just another kind of Christianity, one with a lovely built-in welfare system? One is too many. Yet I suspect that the ranks of the Mormon church will swell, not so much because of Romney himself but because of the Christians who are now, for the sake of their hatred of Obama, are claiming that he’s a Christian. He’s not a bottom-feeding Mormon, as Reuben noted, he’s high up the food chain in Mormonism.

    (I say this, obviously as someone who does not hold to the Calvinist belief in predestination but as someone who believes people can freely choose God.)

    (Em, you are too kind!)

  36. Xenia,
    I think you have gone off your rocker – our children and grandchildren are brought up to believe that Buddhism and the like are viable and valid choices to hang your religious hat. If I ever thought that a political candidate could sway people to his religion I would have voted for Billy Graham many years ago.

  37. Did the Southern Methodists have a great attendance increase when GWB was president? This is really funny.

  38. Reuben says:

    MLD @33, irrelevant to my argument. It is totally unacceptable for a Christian to say a vote for Obama is a vote against Jesus. It is ludicrous, and further more, clinically insane, to even fathom saying that a vote for Romney is a vote for Jesus.

  39. Xenia says:

    MLD, I hope you are right.

  40. Reuben,
    I don’t know that I was addressing your comment. I never tie religion and politics. Neither has anything to do with the other. If a person can’t make a case for some issues commonly tied to religion (like abortion and gay marriage) from a natural law point, they should probably stay away from both religion and politics.

  41. DavidH says:

    Christians are being sold down the rive in the name of political expedience. I do not believe that I must vote for one or the other, and probably won’t vote for either.

    If Mitt Romney is a Christian, then pigs can fly.

    I’m glad I’m registered independent “decline to state.”

  42. Xenia says:

    I never tie religion and politics.<<<

    I try to tie everything with religion. Every single thing, the best I can.

  43. David H, I too am a “decline to state” – my motive was to clear out my mail box during election seasons. 🙂

  44. DavidH says:


    That’s another motive.

  45. Xenia,
    Do you choose to go only to Christian owned grocery stores? Would you stay at a Marriott hotel? That’s what you seem to be saying – that you could not support a Mormon because he might influence others.

    I have a friend who will not stay at a Marriott hotel because corporately they tithe to the Mormon church.

    But my greater point, is I don’t think that abortion and gay marriage are “christian” views and can be more effectively defended from a natural law point of view once you enter the political arena..

  46. Xenia says:

    MLD, good questions.

    Well, in my neighborhood there are two good grocery stores within walking distance, one owned by Muslims and one owned by Catholics. For a while, I thought I’d prefer to support my fellow Christians so I tended to go to the Catholic-owned store, even though it was a few blocks further down the street. Then I thought, how am I ever going to show the love of Christ to those Muslims if I never go into their store? So for a while, I made a point of going into the Muslim store and chatting with the proprietors. Now I go to either one I like. If I’m at the Muslim store, I am as friendly as I can be and I make sure my cross is showing. If I”m in the Catholic store, ditto, and I’m glad I’m helping support their business. So in both cases, I try to do what I think promotes the love of Christ the best. In this case, both choices are fine.

    No one that I know has become a Mormon because they spent the night in a Marriott hotel but as I’ve said on this thread my own Baptist cousins now think Mormonism is Christianity. My cousins are now promoting heresy and this is entirely because of Romney’s candidacy. As I said, I don’t especially blame Romney for this. He’s not preaching Mormonism (now, anyway) and he certainly has the right to run for president. I blame the hatred that many conservatives have for Obama, which has blinded them.

  47. DavidH says:

    Xenia – “I blame the hatred that many conservatives have for Obama, which has blinded them.”

    The sad part is that not a single one is going to admit to that hatred.

  48. Wait a minute – did liberals treat Bush with love and respect? Give me a break. It’s the nature of the beast to speak in strong polemics against the other party and individuals. Read some political biographies from the late 1800s.

    No one is saying anything about Obama that has not already been said about Grover Cleveland or Howard Taft.

  49. And these are just words – LBJ actually destroyed dozens of people by his cross party hatred.

    I think people today are political sissies.

  50. Xenia says:

    It is very true that people have despised past Presidents with the same vehemence with which they despise Obama. Remember the crazy things they used to say about Clinton- all the people they claim he murdered in Arkansas? But that’s not the point, really. Never before has a cultist made it to the top of a major ticket. This is the first time that people are going to vent their hatred against a sitting president by voting for a cultist. If Romney wins, this will be a first. It may not matter to some people but it matters very much to me, for the reasons I have given.

    Folks, vote your conscience. If you have carefully examined the platforms of both candidates and truly believe Romney is the best, then follow your conscience and vote for him. My conscience will not permit it but I am not your Holy Spirit, everyone must be convinced in their own heart.

    I am very much bothered that many conservative Christians are now believing Mormonism is a Christian denomination. This bothers me very much. I fear for our country if the Christians- the Bible-believing folks- can be so easily deluded. There are even greater delusions yet to come and may God help us.

    Of course, most conservative Christians who are going to vote for Romney do realize that Mormonism is not Christian. They are willing to overlook this. I am not.

  51. “by voting for a cultist.”

    I think we need to be more cautious with our words. The biggest error that Walter Martin made (among many) was to emphasize the word “cult” and “cultist”.

    We give people the impression that Romney is no different than Jim Jones and David Koresh.

    He has a different religion and we oppose that religion only because they claim to be Christian. But his different religion is no different than the local Jewish religion – just different from ours, but to continually call someone like Romney a “cultist” is no different than the stuff people say about Obama. In fact, I would go so far as to say that calling Mormons “cultists” is actually hate speech.

    Xenia, are you worried that Romney is anything like Jones or Koresh? Are you saying that Mormons are like them?

  52. Xenia says:

    If it is hate speech to call Mormonism a cult, then so be it.

  53. Well, you putting Romney in the same descriptive category as Jim Jones and David Koresh is probably worse than anything Obama has been called on FB and the blogs.

    Ask 100 people on the street to name a cultist and see if anyone mentions a nice person.

    Unbelievable. Again, it’s Walter Martin’s fault for taking away the real meaning of words.

  54. Xenia says:

    From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

    Definition of CULT

    : formal religious veneration : worship
    : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
    : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
    : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
    a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
    b : the object of such devotion
    c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion


    I think Number 3 is the operative definition.

    Notice none of the definitions include the concept of “murderous.”

  55. #3 is what everyone thinks of another person’s religion.

    But you know that is not what you were saying when you said people will be voting for a cultist.

    If I call someone queer, it is usually to get a rise out of people – but I can point to an adequate definition from the dictionary to get myself out of trouble.

    Anyway, I just prefer to call Romney a non Christian – and Mormonism a non Christian religion.

  56. Xenia says:

    Well MLD, for your sake from now on I’ll refer to Romney as a non-Christian.

  57. I don’t want you to change your ways for me. I was just pointing out that you do the same thing that you complain others do. Describe people in unfavorable terms.
    I just find it funny that in this day and age where Christians get whacked around in the press that we whack other people’s religion.

    Would you vote for a Jew? Now there is a group that is openly (to each other) hostile towards Christians.

  58. I see Mormonism as evil – but I do not see Mormons as evil.

  59. erunner says:

    I attended a church that invited Mormons to visit so as to discuss Mormonism. I saw first hand what Xenia has spoken of. Nobody in the room seemed to have a clue about Mormonism and Mormons were allowed to explain their beliefs to everyone. I couldn’t believe what I was witnessing and I could not stay and be a part of it. I said my piece and walked out never to return.

    I really don’t see the difference between a Jim Jones and Mormonism. Obviously Jim Jones was a lunatic or demon possessed and deceived people into buying what he was selling.

    It’s cults like Mormonism and the JW’s who are more dangerous. They package lies from the pit of hell and deceive millions. Jim Jones took maybe a thousand with him to hell. So in that sense I see the Mormons as being more dangerous because they have the ability to deceive so many which they do with great efficiency.

    All of the cults and false religions all have one thing in common. They are of the devil. But for the grace of God I would be among their ranks. My heart breaks for those who satan has blinded to the truth.

  60. Erunner, I have seen Jews speak in evangelical churches – they explain their religion and no one questions what they say and along the way they take all of their adherents to hell. So what’s the difference? A non Christian is the anti christ.

    “All of the cults and false religions…” I hope you are including the Jews in that comment.

  61. erunner says:

    My mother is a Jew and a Nazi Germany survivor. Yet I believe a Jew who dies without Christ is lost for eternity. I believe some CC’s have had Jews speak in relation to end times stuff and I think that’s a mistake. If I’m not mistakem John Haggee stated the Jews had some sort of free pass in order for them to be saved. The road is narrow and our job is not to widen it.

  62. They have them do the passover seders also – but you know where I am going with this. I just think if we can call Romney publicly a “cultist” we should call all non Christian politicians anti christ – which is dead on accurate.

    Let’s see, when Joe Lieberman ran for VP in 2000, it would have been appropriate to call him the anti christ candidate … at least for those who label Romney.

    It’s nonsense to care about someone’s religion when they are hired for a job – and that’s what we do with a president… hire him.

  63. Xenia says:

    Traditionally, the word “cult’ has referred to a relatively recently-formed group that is numerically small. Large religious groups that have been around for centuries are generally called “world religions.” As Mormonism seems to be enduring and growing maybe it’s at the “world religion” stage. Judaism is not a cult, it’s a world religion.

  64. I understand that Judaism is not a cult… but anti christ none the less.

    As I said earlier, the only reason christians are against Mormons is because they claim to be Christians – no one gives a hoot what they believe. Geez most Mormons don’t know what Mormons believe.

    I gotta go to bed – but don’t even bring up that Mary worshiping Biden. 😉

  65. erunner says:

    What we end up with as far as the elections go are believers who have disagreements. Some in good conscience can’t vote for Romney. Others can and will as they see him as a candidate who more closely aligns with them on issues they deem important.

    I don’t drink alcohol at all. For me to do so would be sin yet I don’t seek to place others where I am. Maybe for some to cast a vote for Romney would be sin. We all draw lines in different spots in the sand. Learning to disagree with the brethren in a mature fashion seems to be an important thing for all of us.

  66. erunner says:

    I don’t like to see Mormons saying they are believers. I’m against Mormonism because it’s a perversion of the Gospel. I’m sure that is the issue most Christians have. Sleep well MLD!

  67. Another Voice says:

    I thought, how am I ever going to show the love of Christ to those Muslims if I never go into their store? So for a while, I made a point of going into the Muslim store and chatting with the proprietors. Now I go to either one I like. If I’m at the Muslim store, I am as friendly as I can be and I make sure my cross is showing
    This was so good I thought it worth repeating. Showing the love of Christ to the lost – what a novel concept.

    There are far more Mormons leaving Mormonism for saving faith in Christ each year in the USA, than there are Muslims. Obviously, Mormonism is far closer theologically to true Christianity than Islam and so this makes sense. That is of course where the battle lies – showing the Mormon that their use of key salvation terms is not in accordance to Scripture, and only supported by their own writings and not the Bible. Every Mormon will have his KJV with him. Try and find a Muslim who has one.

    I have met many ex-Mormons who are now Christians (and for that matter ex-JWs too) – not so much as to ex-Muslims for Christ. Oh yeah, and to my knowledge, Mormons aren’t killing and persecuting Christians worldwide as are Muslims.

    So, given it is far more likely for a Mormon to be saved than a Muslim, and given there are far more Mormons than Muslims, many of whom are simply born into Mormon families and have not truly investigated and chosen the faith for themselves….then along the lines of ‘how can I show the love of Christ’

    a) I’ve never used the word ‘cult’ from the pulpit in my life to describe Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, or any others in Martin’s book. It is red meat to those who already know Christ, and does nothing but confuse and insult the people there who might be in need of salvation.

    b) I have explained, when relevant, where Mormons are in error on a key interpretive verse to their beliefs. However, I rarely waste time teaching wrong beliefs about the Bible. I would rather teach the Bible and offer examples where saved Christians may disagree – than bother with what Mormons or JWs do with ever deity of Christ verse.

    c) I know for a fact, that Christians have invited Mormon friends and family to our church on occasion – mainly because they know it is safe to do so and their loved one in need of Christ will not be insulted by a thundering CULTIST from the pulpit but will hear the truth and be greeted in love by me.

    d) I’ve never once heard anyone in the church, or even anyone tell me about anyone in the church who thinks Mormons are Christians.

    e) We support an annual missionary outreach to Utah to engage Mormons in the truth.

  68. Babylon's Dread says:

    Greetings from Nels Pruit South Africa …

    I love this edition…

    Peyton Manning … .SWEET…

    I don’t know what demoncrap is … I figured it was democrap

    I found lots of family members among the poorest of the poor in Africa… beginning with the nearly deaf HIV positive woman I sat with on the plane all the way from Atlanta… she agrees that “Jesus can do anything”

    As for a Mormon president… I ain’t fer it… but I haven’t seen a man whose faith affected his governance since Jimmy Carter… of course that is untrue everyone governs from what they really believe unless they are paid for otherwise…

  69. PP Veteran says:

    Three meanings of cult:

    Walter Martin-style cult (e.g. Mormonism): Any religious group claiming to be Christian, but deemed outside of Christian orthodoxy.

    Behavioral cult (e.g. Mormonism):
    – The organization’s practices and beliefs are dictated from the top.
    – Newbies are love-bombed.
    – Believers get a new identity based on the group
    – They are isolated and their access to information is controlled.
    – The leaders are seen as having a special and unique connection to God.
    – Those who leave are deemed condemned and are shunned.
    Obviously many legitimately Christian churches have some of these characteristics.

    Theologian-style cult: Any “New Religious Movement” (NRM). An NRM that sticks around long enough becomes just another religion (e.g., Mormonism, and for that matter, Christianity itself).

  70. rick says:

    “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because
    He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”
    -1 JOHN 4:4

    John declares that no matter what comes against us, the One within
    us is Greater. It does not matter what you feel like, what you see,
    what you hear, what people say, or what the devil does. It does not
    matter if Lazarus is dead for four days and is beginning to stink.
    It does not matter if the girl dies before Jesus can get there. It
    does not matter if the waves are about to capsize the boat. It does
    not matter if Paul is stoned and left for dead. Lazarus will be
    raised, the girl will be brought back to life, and the storm will
    be silenced, and Paul will preach again.

    The Greater is always Greater, and the Lesser is always Lesser. We
    only have a problem when we see everything else as “greater” and
    see Christ as “lesser.”

  71. Shaun Sells says:

    Xenia – just thought I would let you know that your rabbit avatar looks exactly like my daughters rabbit. His name is Comic, because when we brought him home we put newspaper in the cage and the rabbit seemed to prefer eating the comics to the other parts of the paper.

  72. I still think that the biggest insult to Christianity this election cycle is to state that you won’t vote for a person because of his religion – which is what Xenia stated.

    I am sure that I would be booed off the blog if I said i would vote for a Jew or a black. This is the exact same thing… imho

  73. if I said i would vote for a Jew or a black.
    if I said i WOULDN’T vote for a Jew or a black.

  74. i have to extrapolate (think that’s the word i want) on MLD’s #72 a bit … there are certain persons’ religions that would make me not vote for them … a devout Mormon comes close because they are a very powerful organization in the secular world of the U.S. and their first loyalty is the welfare of their church’s affairs – including and, perhaps, especially their secular endeavors … the rising tide of prosperity might not raise all our boats
    this election is a toss of the dice for me … twice in my life i have had Mormon next door neighbors – the first was the daughter of a high muckity muck in Provo – a good friend, the second is a hooligan of a high order – full of smiles and dirty tricks

  75. Xenia says:

    that you won’t vote for a person because of his religion – which is what Xenia stated.<<<

    Yes, that is exactly what I said and I will stand by it.

  76. Another Voice says:

    I still think that the biggest insult to Christianity this election cycle is to state that you won’t vote for a person because of his religion – which is what Xenia stated.
    Not quite. The biggest insult to Christianity this election season is to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ for choosing to vote with different convictions.

    I’m pretty sure I would have cast my vote for a unitarian or a deist back in the early days – given how fresh the oppression of England would have been in my mind (and life), and given there would not have been enough time to be spoiled by freedom.

  77. Xenia, You were very clear, that because of your Christian beliefs you have reason not to vote for someone… so tell me how that is different from what you rail against when other Christians, state that because of their Christianity, they can’t vote for Obama?

    I don’t know that the conservatives have said anything as rash as “this man is not qualified to serve as President of the US, because of his religious beliefs”

    So that I am clear, I think all is fair game in politics – religion, sexual orientation and skin color. It’s all a game for the big boys.

  78. Xenia says:

    when other Christians, state that because of their Christianity, they can’t vote for Obama?<<<

    I agree with them. I can't for for Obama either.

    I am going to write in someone for president and get involved in the local mayoral election.

    But as i said earlier, everyone must examine the situation, pray, follow their conscience and be convinced in their own heart. I don't doubt the Christianity of anyone who votes either way. My own Christianity dictates my actions but again, as I said, I am not anyone's Holy Spirit.

  79. Xenia says:

    I am shocked at the number of Christians who, out of their desire to see Obama defeated, have decided that Mormonism is a form of Christianity, something they didn’t think a few years ago. This is what concerns me, the ease with which people can be deluded. Whoever is the president doesn’t really concern me as much as this.

  80. erunner says:

    Imagine if we were as zealous for our faith as we can be for our political views. I’m with you on #79 Xenia. I learn a lot from your posts. Thank you.

  81. FWIW as i sit here waiting for a phone call from the plumber 🙂 … it seems to me that trying to pin the state of the nation on Obama, himself, is naive and that worries me much more than the biased Christian voter does … just as worrisome as was the hysteria at his inauguration … bravo for us, we broke thru the color barrier, but we still don’t seem to elect men who can get the job done – our desire for a healthy, intelligent and functional nation – liberty and justice etc.
    there’s more, but i’m tired and i spare you any more old lady thoughts

  82. I must run with the wrong crowd. I have yet to run into a Christian friend who has said, “I used to think Mormonism was a cult, but now that Romney is running for President I have been persuaded to change my position on that religion, and I now embrace them as brothers in the Lord.”

    Perhaps my friends are too stubborn, or narrow minded – but everyone I know still thinks Mormonism is a non Christian religion, still think Romney is a non Christian and have no problem considering him for President.

  83. Another Voice says:

    I’m with you on #82, MLD. I have yet to read such a thing. In point of fact, I have seen several media stories that decided, because of the election no doubt, to write about the differences between Mormons and Christians.

    We already live in a nation where many (most?) people see Mormonism as a Christian denomination, and that has been the case for years now. But suddenly Romney’s Christian voters are to blame? When the man hasn’t even won yet?

    But here is the real issue in all this. Evangelicals were the ones largely AGAINST Romney in this GOP primary, and the 2008 one as well. Republicans are far more than just evangelicals, and the big guys in the GOP actually would like the evangelicals to just go away. They are the Romney guys.

    So we evangelicals didn’t put Romney on the ticket. And there are some who won’t vote for him because their guy in the primary lost. Others will grudgingly vote for him, in hopes of removing the guy who currently has the job.

    As an aside, black liberation theology is heretical too. A different kind of heresy, but heresy nonetheless. So if this is only about religious belief, and not who of only two men is going to lead the country and the free world, one could (stupidly I would suggest) argue that a Christian has a duty to remove Obama from office.

    Which I believe is how this all started. Anger at those on the right who said Christians can’t possibly vote for Obama.

  84. Mark says:

    I agree with MLD and AV- it is a myth that anyone now thinks Mormonism is OK beacuse of Romney. We do not vote for a religious leader- we vote for a foreign policy and domestic policy leader. Obama has no foreign policy- in fact we are at the lowest level of world stature we have ever been since before World War 2 under Obama- he is “missing in action” on foreign plicy. Domestic policy HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Excuse me I cant stop laughing. The best line of the entire season so far was
    Eastwood: “But I just think it is important that you realize , that you’re the best in the world. Whether you are a Democrat or Republican or whether you’re libertarian or whatever, you are the best. And we should
    not ever forget that. And when somebody does not do the job, we got to let them go.”

    And we’ve got to let Obama go.

  85. Quoting Eastwood after the the RNC is pretty ironic.

  86. Xenia says:

    it is a myth that anyone now thinks Mormonism is OK beacuse of Romney. <<<

    Well, call me a liar then but I have said truthfully that I know people who now believe this.

  87. Another Voice says:

    Here is a reference to a poll done in 2007. 53% express a favorable view to Mormons while almost the same number at the same time (51%) say they know very little about what Mormons believe. Only less than 1/3 said that Mormons were not Christians.

    Once more, this poll was in 2007.

    The Mormons have actively, agressively been working on a PR campaign since WW2 to be mainstream. And been very successful in their efforts. Mitt Romney is an example of the RESULT of those years of efforts (despite us GOP evangelicals NOT supporting him – the rest of the party did). He is not the CAUSE of this acceptance.

    Finally, these are two different claims being made here. The one MLD and I challenged, namely: “out of their desire to see Obama defeated, have DECIDED that Mormonism is a form of Christianity, something they DIDN’T THINK a few years ago”


    “Mormonism is OK beacuse of Romney”

    People who have Mormon neighbors, classmates and so forth have been saying Mormonism is OK for decades – if they see (like Romney) people who love family and help their neighbors.

    But to say people know all about the heretical theology, denounced it for years, and now embrace the Mormons as brothers in the year 2012?? Well, it is a big nation, but that is certainly going to be a small pool of people.

  88. Xenia says:

    This is bizzare. I know people, family members, who because of their hatred of Obama and their desire to vote for a Christian have convinced themselves that Mormonism is a Christian denomination. I could show you a letter stating this very thing I received from a relative last week. My relative is not unique, either.

    But nevermind. I’m tired of this discussion. I’m done discussing the election. You are all free to believe whatever you want to believe.

  89. used to be someone else... says:

    mark @84; it is NOT a myth that people now think Mormonism is OK because Chrsitan pastors are pounding people to vote for him. That is unquestionably true. Sad, but true. It is inconceivable tome that any born-again pastor would encourage any in their congregation to vote for Romney. It is a matter of conscience and up to each individual. But when a pastor uses terms like Biblical worldview in relation to his pressure to vote for Romney, they are sending a horrible message.

  90. use to be,
    I agree with you to a point – but I would extend it to ANY political talk coming from a pastor’s pulpit… even if he was trying to rally the troops to vote for Billy Graham for president.

    But I wonder, if a very conservative Jew were running for president, if a pastor endorsed him, is he actually saying that Judaism is OK?
    If a Lutheran were running, is a pastor endorsing infant baptism?

  91. Em says:

    ” I’m tired of this discussion. I’m done discussing the election. You are all free to believe whatever you want to believe.” there’s a good idea … 🙂

  92. Another Voice says:

    We have the luxury of apathy.

    I wonder if today, on September 11th, if the Coptic Christians in Egypt and Libya, as they watch our nation’s embassy attacked, US consulate burned to the ground, as they worry for their own lives and family, as they see our nation’s response to be an apology to the Muslims for offending them….

    I wonder if they care about who the leader of the free world will be the next four years?

  93. It’s funny because I didn’t think that the conversation was about politics at all. That would be if we were debating Obamacare,welfare, war, street sweeping and other things.
    I thought this conversation was “what does a Christian do?”

  94. Another Voice says:

    I haven’t said a word about this election from the pulpit. I don’t plan to either. I do speak of the persecuted Church often.

    As a Christian, we all are called to think of the Body of Christ around the world – not just ourselves. Doing so is a Biblical command.

    Today, in Egpyt and Libya, Christians are facing great persecution, despite centuries of worship there in somewhat relative freedom. Today, Sept. 11, our embassy in Egypt and consulate in Libya were attacked and the response in part was to apologize to the Muslims that attacked us.

    I wonder if our brothers and sisters, in viewing both the new-found boldness of the Muslims in these two nations, and our continued politically correct responses, would understand our apathy to discussing who might be the best of the two men to lead the free world the next four years.

    I guess we will talk it over with them in heaven one day. They might get there a little bit earlier than we do though….

  95. Another Voice says:

    (My posts aren’t posting so if this is a repeat – please forgive and delete..will try again)

    I haven’t said a word about this election from the pulpit. I do speak of the persecuted Church often.

    As a Christian, we all are called to think of the Body of Christ around the world – not just ourselves. Doing so is a Biblical command.

    Today, in Egpyt and Libya, Christians are facing great persecution, despite centuries of worship there in somewhat relative freedom. Today, Sept. 11, our embassy in Egypt and consulate in Libya were attacked and the response in part was to apologize to the Muslims that attacked us.

    I wonder if our brothers and sisters, in viewing both the new-found boldness of the Muslims in these two nations, and our continued politically correct responses, would understand our apathy to discussing who might be the best of the two men to lead the free world the next four years.

    I guess we will talk it over with them in heaven one day. They might get there a little bit earlier than we do though….I haven’t said a word about this election from the pulpit. I do speak of the persecuted Church often.

    As a Christian, we all are called to think of the Body of Christ around the world – not just ourselves. Doing so is a Biblical command.

    Today, in Egpyt and Libya, Christians are facing great persecution, despite centuries of worship there in somewhat relative freedom. Today, Sept. 11, our embassy in Egypt and consulate in Libya were attacked and the response in part was to apologize to the Muslims that attacked us.

    I wonder if our brothers and sisters, in viewing both the new-found boldness of the Muslims in these two nations, and our continued politically correct responses, would understand our apathy to discussing who might be the best of the two men to lead the free world the next four years.

    I guess we will talk it over with them in heaven one day. They might get there a little bit earlier than we do though….

  96. Em says:

    MLD, i’ll tell you one thing a Christian “does” – just had a house call from my Mormon plumber to repair a sprinkler: “now while i’m here, is there anything else you can think of that i can fix before i leave?” the last time they made a house call, they installed a sink faucet that i had – no charge. You think i’m going to look for a Christian plumber when i have such a good one already? 🙂

  97. Em, I agree – go for the best.

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