Things I Think

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119 Responses

  1. Scott says:

    #2 might as well because we sure aren’t taking it with us. Of course it is easy for me to tell others what they should do with their money…I don’t have any to speak of.

    Sorry to hear about Nomans missing friends.

  2. Andy says:

    6) He can avoid the controversy by just teaching the Bible.

    9) Still haven’t seen the proof that James was gay/bi/whatever. Other than the mere words of his enemies after the fact.

  3. Em says:

    promised myself that i wouldn”t post more than once a day, now that i’ve seen that someone is keeping a record on that number 🙄

    #1- Lance Armstrong, like most of the top riders, didn’t/don’t have the character or the conviction of Eric Liddell … every one of the top riders and some not so “top” riders use steroids, blood boosters and/or illegal blood transfusions – or so rumor has had it
    #2 – yep, no fear of God, which makes you wonder …
    #3 – so sorry you’re needing them now
    #4 – we seem to have trouble with our hearing and our eyesight – at least, i do
    #5 – amen, amen amen and we should wrestle with our Faith (while resting in it 🙂 )
    #6 – i’m 100% with this fella, why is it so hard to see the principles of grace are the goal and not a compromise of the Law?
    #7 – with one exception the flow of history brings us always closer to the Day
    #8 – King James commissioned it, he didn’t “write” it …
    #9 – oh boy, is it ever!
    #10 – the best lost pet ad is the one you place on telephone poles (if there are any) where children regularly walk IMHO

    now i’m gone

  4. Michael says:


    Post all you want…you haven’t derailed conversations here, but you have contributed much to them.

  5. Papias says:

    1. PR stunt. Lance needs Jesus.
    2. Maybe this pastor needs to know when someone has a need?
    3. Revealed in due time, like prophetic understanding….
    4. Thank you! Next passage please….
    5. Some folks think that debating doctrine is the same as questioning God. Its not.
    6. Seems that he backed off when he should have fessed up unapologetically.
    7. As Israel was taken into captivity, God still looked over them. America may take a back seat to another world power some day, but so far, no one has stepped up to the plate. Not saying that America has some special place with God….I don’t know what I’m saying. Maybe just saying that it could get ALOT worse than it is now.
    8. If they did, they didn’t last.
    9. WHEW! That was close!
    10. Nomans……I hope your pups come home safe and sound!

  6. Em says:

    #7 – this one did kind of dovetail with my morning reading of Deuteronomy 28 … since i believe that what is outlined for Israel throughout the O.T. has societal applications for all the human race, reading the warning to them of the eventual (or swift?) results of a society disrespecting God sent chills up my spine

  7. erunner says:


  8. erunner says:

    second test

  9. erunner says:

    please delete these posts.. on line with HP trying to resolve issues

  10. erunner says:


  11. “It’s fascinating and fitting to see that an entertainer has become America’s ‘pastor’.”

    Only because America’s pastors have become entertainers.

  12. erunner says:

    every time i leave a post it asks for me to supply my email address and user name. we’re trying to fix that as i have no problem on firefox as I am on IE….

  13. Alex says:

    See Paige, Michael’s as sarcastic and angst-ridden as ever…(even a tad arrogant) and I love it 🙂

    #1: Meh on Armstrong and Moprah. No duh on the doping, what’d you think a guy could win that many in a row at his age and be clean? It was like watching a bulked up Eric Gagne throwing a 101mph fastball to a bulked up Barry Bonds…and watching Bonds hit the ball about 500 feet no problem. Steroids, etc…ya think?

    #2: I know why Chuck likes Israel so much…he’s more frugal than any Jew I know…heck my guys call me the Hebrew..and I don’t pinch the pennies as tightly as ‘ol Chuck…unless of course you’re in the family…then you get paid.

    #5: Amen, but I think a little wrestling with God is part of being human as well and I think He understands (or I hope He does).

    #6-9: Ya, the End Times horse is beaten to death, probably more-so than my CC stuff on here. Some seem to be more fascinated with the End…than the Present. It’s a bit of spiritual retardation IMO…see it a lot in certain non-denom circles of which I am not permitted to speak its name.

    #10: Prayers for the Doggies! May the be safe during their curiosity-driven rebellious excursion and return home safely.

  14. Alex says:

    BTW, we’re busier than a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest over haaayuh!

    Thank God for the Anti-Gun Crowd prompting a buying frenzy.

    I know how we can fix the Economy now:

    1. Threaten to Ban SUV’s, American-made SUV’s, Trucks, etc.

    2. Threaten to Ban eating out at Restaurants.

    3. Threaten to Ban owning a Home.

    4. Threaten to Ban computers and all electronics.

    …that should about do it. Wa-la, Economy fixed. The GDP would BOOM!

  15. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    I never bought into the Fraud that wa Lance Armstrong, I believed he was on the Gas from the start when the public was worshipping this guy

  16. 1. Lance Armstrong is one smart cookie. Deny, deny deny…oops denial not working anymore, Go on Oprah to publicly confess and have Oprah cry with you and voila all your PR problems are solved. This is just a tired old Oprah tactic and probably as much for Oprah’s benefit as Armstrong’s. I mean she has been losing a lot of leverage with the move to her own cable channel.
    2. Well, I guess it was all about the money then.
    3. Hope everything is okay.
    4. The one I get tired of hearing lately is Jeremiah 29:11. No one ever mentions that this is right before going into exile for 70 years.
    5. True.
    6. Yeah, both sides will tear him down, but I am sort of glad he decided to step down as his fight for ending global slavery is more important.
    7. Amen. We americans elevate our own importance in the flow of history.
    8. Not so sure James was actually bisexual.
    9. lol
    10. Said a prayer for Nomans pups.

  17. Michael says:


    Looks like an Internet Exploder bug…it won’t let me log on either.

  18. n o m a n s says:

    I log on fine

  19. erunner says:


  20. erunner says:


  21. erunner says:

    so sorry

  22. Em says:

    i’m having trouble following this thread … what is easy and why is erunner so sorry about it? 🙂

    FWIW, i don’t think Lance Armstrong was so smart – i understand that he had a reputation for being one mean son of a gun among the Tour crowd … perhaps, that’s why some of them went after him … dunno

  23. I meant smart in how he is trying to manage what has turned into a bad situation and it wasn’t meant in an admiring way. More like seeing that he is wiley like a fox.

  24. erunner says:

    double dang

  25. Alex says:

    BrianD….GRRRRRRR! Makes me so angry.

    Susan Burke is going after these issues. Can’t wait ’til a certain non-denom denom of which I cannot speak its name gets its turn. CAN’T WAIT for that day.

  26. Em says:

    the ongoing saga of erunner’s log on problems would be kind of funny here, except i want to ‘hear’ what he’s trying to get on to post … i’ve been getting kicked off lately when i hit the return button to start a new line

  27. Em says:

    is there a book titled toxic pastors? should be … maybe another titled toxic congregations?
    the Church should be smarter/better taught in the fundamentals (the real ones)

  28. erunner says:

    I just spent FOUR hours on the internet and phone with HP. They installed and ran CCleaner and another app. They took forever. I explained that I ma having trouble logging onto this site while on IE but have no problems with Mozilla. So they want to reformat my computer!!! They want me to back up my music, etc. Everything else is fine. Are they inept or am I a doofus and just don’t understand. Four hours!!!!!!

  29. now i’m doing it again – too easy to make these inane comments i need an internet “exploder’

  30. erunner, you are a patient man … the wonder of it all IMO is that this thing works at all

    now i’m gone

  31. voigt51 says:

    #7 If the entire contintenal United States sank and ended up next Atlantis God can still go on..somehow we in the good ole U S of A felt Boble phrophecy hindged around our country. While I have seen our country do a complete 180 It doean’t have to mean the rapture in next week. Perhaps just another link in the change.. His time is His time not ours

  32. Erunner – since you are having such a hard time, let me be your voice and say what you wanted to say

    “Only 29 days until pitchers & catchers report to Spring Training!!” 🙂

  33. voigt51, you are right – but that’s an interesting picture – a whole new ocean separating Canada from Mexico and Central America puts a whole new meaning to the little short guy’s “giant sucking sound” campaign slogan … who would get Alaska? or … would Alaska and Hawaii become the United 2 States? … would it sink slowly, so that some of us could make a run for the border? … i’m going to turn this computer off and go mop a floor or something 🙂

  34. forgot some punctuation – again … sigh … oh well

  35. Alex says:

    MLD said, ““Only 29 days until pitchers & catchers report to Spring Training!!””

    I think the Dodgers may have purchased the NL West this year 🙂

    Hopefully those over-paid bums will bring home the hardware…

  36. Pastor Oprah? I thought she was god.

  37. Reuben says:


    God does not use homos.


  38. Fly on a Wall says:

    “I’d find a way to help some of the people WHO HELP BUILD my empire when they were in need”

    That’s been Pastor Chuck’s problem since the beginning… he has no problem using slave labor to clean CCCM’s bathrooms, parking lot, make coffee, etc… but historically he has never given back to them. And it’s not people asking for handouts, it’s people who have gone through CC Bible College system and are in limbo between school and a full-time paying ministry and most likely doing a part-time ministry for free.

    If the people only knew how much money CCCM had, the backlash would be horrific.

    Just an opinion, I think that’s why CC always stayed a Movement. Because historically, the mothership does not give handouts to fledgling CCs, unlike a denomination such as he Catholic Church, where they can get help from Rome (but they also have to pay Rome too).

    It really is a business, some would say a con.

  39. Independent churches are independent for these reasons only;

    1.) They refuse to work within a system – they have no respect for others.
    2.) They think they have discovered how to do it right.
    3.) They cannot be answerable to anyone – they feel entitled to what they want to do.

    And it always leads to a strong willed leader who takes no hostages.

  40. Michael says:


    I just told everyone how much CCCM has…and no one blinked.
    And now you know why I’m semi-retired…

  41. Lance Armstrong seeking forgiveness is amusing. He is simply doing a reconstruction of his public image. I hope he comes out smoking and says I cheated because we ALL cheated and I won because that is what I was commissioned to do.

    I don’t really want to see him ask forgiveness… just do what he really wants and reshape his image. Of course I really am not vested in his transgressions. But Lance was absolutely backed into a corner and in order to show his face he has to admit his deceptions.

    Get it done and get on with life. We don’t need him to be a saint or even a righteous man. Just tell the truth and clean up your mess Lance… Oprah is the confessor in chief she will absolve you.

    Get on with raising money for Cancer … what the heck we forgive you and don’t really care anyway.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    My seminary was affiliated with Shadow Mountain.

    I guess I should be mad that David Jeremiah never wrote me a check.

  43. Scott says:

    I’m not sure why I should “blink” about how much money CS has? That’s chump change in some circles.

  44. Chile says:

    I did not blink … I threw up!

  45. Chile says:

    Every laborer is worthy of his hire. They should all be paid a fair wage. Free slave labor, or grossly under paying assistants while you are stock piling wealth off the backs of widow’s mites is sinful.

  46. Scott says:

    Is all this information regarding the personal wealth of CS and value of the company store something new? Did I miss something recently? I was under the impression these things have been brought to light some time ago.

  47. Scott says:

    Haha, all the hand wringing will soon commence via electronic communication devices made on the backs of Chinese slaves and underpaid workers. Paid for by Americans like us who are supporting fat cat corporations full of multimillionaires who oppress the hirelings in their wages right in our own country.

  48. Em says:

    i guess i am the only one here who is old enough to be aghast at the entitlement mentality that permeates this country today? … is it simple greed or is it something else? i don’t think it is greed as that has always been around like every other human frailty … this is something different and i’m not sure just what it is … a distortion of the “life, liberty and pursuit” principle? 65+ years of virtual reality – television? … those Joneses we want to keep up with don’t live next door anymore – dunno – but, something’s changed to make any “man of God” justify a BIG bank account (just in case God needs it later on 😎 ) … ? …

  49. Steve, you weren’t a part of their organization – you were a consumer of their product.

    If I fell on hard times, I wouldn’t expect Del Taco to support me, even though I have had a long term consumer relationship with them. 🙂

  50. I am now curious about CCCMs wealth. I took Michael’s original comment as poetic license, but is CCCM really worth $500 million? Is that cash on hand or mostly land, brick and mortar?

  51. erunner says:

    good stuff…

  52. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – So should I tell the Southern Baptists that I went to seminary with that they should be all upset and mad that THEY did not get a check from David Jeremiah?

    Or should I just have switched tribes and cashed in?

    The statement was made that a CC Bible College graduate should have expected some compensation after graduation, simply by choice of school.

    I’m with Em that only our current entitlement mentality in society could let that go by without comment.

  53. Michael says:

    I dont know who said anything about a CCBC graduate…it wasn’t me.
    I am saying that someone who has been in “fellowship” with another man for forty years deserves some consideration.

    I have heard different numbers…all over 400 million.

    Back to bed for me.

  54. erunner says:

    I have come to appreciate the importance of antibiotics more and more this past month. Make that medicine in general. A friend without insurance couldn’t afford pain meds without insurance. I was able to give her some that I had not used. At times I take the things I have for granted….

  55. Steve Wright says:

    I’ll close with this. I did not attend the Bible College but I attended the two-year School of Ministry program at CCCM which was as challenging as the seminary I later would earn my MDiv. More so really since we also had to do ministry at the church as well, whereas the seminary was 100% academic. We had to teach a Bible study, serve in the prayer room after service, work the office a couple hours a week, and participate in a small group/home study – in addition to a 13 hour academic load. (One hour a week was chapel, and one hour was a Q&A with Chuck). And of course, provide for our families somehow too.

    The SOM was taught by some of the longterm, experienced pastors there – and the tuition was so trivial as to be laughable. I think it was $200 a semester for the entire school (not per class). That probably covered the photocopy bill for the handouts we were given.

    We also had to pay for a couple books but all books were available at a deep discount through the bookstore to us students.

    Getting equipped for ministry, without getting saddled with thousands of dollars of student debt as would be the case in other schools. Not a bad deal, but apparently we all should have felt forsaken and taken advantaged of (to read the ideas expressed above).

    One thing I am confused about though. I read repeatedly here by some how any pastor that does not work a side job is really fleecing the people. True nobility is to pastor without salary.

    And yet, I also read that it is a shame these CC guys were forced to work until they got a “full-time” ministry job – and how the tithes of others should have gone to them during the transition.

    You guys see how some of these comments read less as principled stands of conviction and more on the convenience of shifting conviction to paint that which you see as your adversary in the worst possible light?

  56. Steve Wright says:

    Michael – the Bible College stuff was @39. Same post where apparently any church that allows volunteers to be the cleaning crew is an abomination.

  57. Lutheran says:


    Love your #9, More wisdom there than all the prophecy nuts combined.

  58. Lutheran says:

    Spiritually abusive church system:: cleaning the toilets has all kinds of hidden meanings.

    Spiritually healthy church system: toilets are cleaned because they’re dirty.

    Here’s a great book on the topic of toxic and healthy church systems:

  59. I must be a simpleton. I thought that the issue was John Duncan has nothing, CCCM has $500 million and won’t help him after 40 yrs of service.
    But I guess the real conversation was about minimum wage for cleaning toilets.

  60. “…any church that allows volunteers to be the cleaning crew is an abomination.”

    Yes, indeed. Thank you, Romaine.

    I think that any organization that manipulates the most needy into bartering their children’s labor as tuition by telling them that it is a “privilege” and they are “serving The LORD” is preying upon those most needy families and their children.

    That’s just one small example.

    Lived it.
    Sold my children into it for a season.
    Damn me. Such was my blind cultic devotion.
    Nobody should want something THAT bad that they are so able to be manipulated because of their own fear that there is nothing outside of their “movement”.

    Thankfully our children realized it and convinced my wife and me that God would be pleased with us all “moving on”, that He would be present and with us elsewhere.
    Out of the mouths of babes comes truth when the so called wise are too blind to see and have no ears to hear the sound of their own shackles.

    Our children discovered freedom because they weren’t as brainwashed as their stupid parents. And so it is with each generation.

    Sorry, ladies, therapy awaits… we damaged your idea of God in the process.

  61. brian says:

    Good morning everyone hope everyone is doing well.

  62. Alex says:

    Good morning brian! Doing well over here despite mild cold, being sued by my folks for speaking out about abuse, etc. but on the other hand, biz is good, family here is awesome and net/net life is great!

    How are things with you?

  63. Alex says:

    Michael said, “I just told everyone how much CCCM has…and no one blinked.
    And now you know why I’m semi-retired…”

    I guess I need to change my moniker to “no one”…b/c I sure as heck blinked above. It ticks me off royally, but I have to moderate my disgust so I don’t offend the CC Steves and the others who don’t like me.

    I think it’s telling how easily that fact is dismissed by some on here…yet I’m the one with an “agenda” and I’m the problem and need to be banned etc.

    You’re being played the fool by some Michael, I don’t know why you can’t see it. All the stuff you’ve written, all the stuff you’ve done…and they’ve neutered you into believing it doesn’t make a difference and that’s “just how things are and it will never change, you have to just be nice and focus on the positive!” blah, blah, blah.

    Well, I think it’s total bullspit, but I dare not get too excited about it or I’ll get in trouble again.

    I guess folks don’t care so much b/c you don’t seem to care as much anymore and have given into a defeatist mindset that it makes no difference so why bother?

    Scott illustrates this well here: “Is all this information regarding the personal wealth of CS and value of the company store something new? Did I miss something recently? I was under the impression these things have been brought to light some time ago.”

    Basically, Scott is telling you to let it rest and shut up, it’s already been covered so move along and be happy and positive.

    Steve W. is his dismissive self as usual with some support from his buddy MLD, our top commenter. Typical stuff, but it’s your blog.

    Wish I didn’t care about it, wish I could read what you wrote about Chuck and CC’s wealth and go “meh, who cares, shut up Newnham”…but I can’t. Sorry.

    …i better shut up before I offend folks and disrupt the club.

  64. Alex says:

    Hate to say it, but the hard cold truth is this: JD is screwed, he’s not part of CS’s family so he won’t see a dime from Chuck. Chuck is “100% independent” when he wants to be.

    Steve Wright has helped as I’ve been chastised greatly for harping on this issue in the past to be contacted privately and scolded for not knowing how Steve’s CC has helped out, etc. JD is apparently getting some help from CC Lake Elsinore, which is great and proper.

    Ya, Chuck and CC are wealthy. They have a ton of assets, including a freaking Castle in Austria, etc. They are basically TBN undercover. They don’t flaunt it like TBN out in the open, but they’re filthy rich…and they don’t use very much of their vast wealth at all to actually help folks in a practical manner…CC considers “helping them” to be another Crusade or Conference or bigger coffee shop at the church…though Calvary Chapel Boise here is doing some great stuff, they are running a thrift store and coffee shop where money is actually used to support the poor in our community…Bob Caldwell, from what I can tell, is doing some good work. I bet Steve Wright and some other Franchisees are doing similar.

    Ron Arbaugh is another guy who I am privy to who takes little money for personal and gives a ton back to his community. He’s an awesome example as well.

    It sucks. I’m torn. I get that the “good guys” are doing things good. I get frustrated when they are so dismissive of the realities and facts of Mothership and others of their co-CC pastors.

    Again, if you really believe in the “100% independent” canard…then JD is a sad reality to that fact. Go it alone. You’re all independent.

  65. Alex says:

    I’m the sucker who bought into the “it WILL make a difference” early on when I was invited here and was inspired by you and your work.

    I went above and beyond and really bought in and have fought hard to expose the stuff etc.

    Then I get nearly run out of here for being so gung-ho.

    Then I get sued for taking such a persistent stand.

    I have to call bullspit.

    I don’t think you or anyone else on here really cares that much…at least not enough to stick your neck out to the point I and some others have.

    I’m with Scott and Steve Wright and MLD, why don’t you just STFU and write cat stories and leave CC and Chuck alone.

  66. “Steve W. is his dismissive self as usual with some support from his buddy MLD, our top commenter. Typical stuff, but it’s your blog.”

    You need to go back in your “way back machine” – I don’t “support” Steve, I just try to balance your crazed attacks on him.

    But you have probably never taken notice that I do not say bad things about the individual offenders. I may speak to the offense, but I never go off on the person – because I don’t know them and I don’t know the offense. I have never said anything bad about Skip H. and I was there – I speak to the offense, not the person.

    Usually, if I mention a person by name, it is to pick apart their theology – and that at times I can do in your crazed manner. 🙂

    So, if I see you using your scorched earth policy against someone by association only, yes I will speak up in their defense if I know differently.

  67. Alex says:

    “I have never said anything bad about Skip H. and I was there – I speak to the offense, not the person.”

    Bullspit. You speak to my name all the time and you called out Paul Lytton.

  68. I have never called for Michael to STFU. I love it when he throws out the red meat. I like the fact that he has expanded from just CC issues to the abuse of others.
    But I don’t think the PP needs to be “church abuse” 24/7

    In the PP world, Michael has established a place where other topics of the day can be discussed.

    It’s also the reason you have not written an article in over a month – you’ve said it all – so your commenters just recycle old materials and say things at comment # 330 that they said at comment #30 6 months earlier.

  69. I never said I don’t mention names – I just don’t speak bad of them personally like you do.

    I speak to you in the present and in response to your comments (the same with Paul). It’s called conversation.

  70. Alex says:

    “It’s also the reason you have not written an article in over a month ”

    Bullspit. I could write 10 articles a day, believe me.

    I don’t like to lead. I wish one of the so-called “good guys” would so something, but they won’t, and Michael has backed off as well. Yet, so many participate and so many tell me privately (and publicly) how valuable it is to them. I get so many emails all the time, so many stories that haven’t been reported, so many folks needing someone to validate their hurts etc.

    Hey, I agree with you in this MLD, I’m not that good a guy and I’m an a-hole, so someone else step up and do something.

  71. Alex says:

    ” I just don’t speak bad of them personally like you do.”

    That’s the biggest bunch of “malarkey” (i’ll pull a word from your generation) you’ve ever typed on here.

    I can copy and paste about 10 pages worth and show you your error here, but it wouldn’t do any good, you’d wriggle out of it with a glib comment to the contrary. You really are about as intellectually dishonest as they come.

  72. Feel free to show me where I speak badly about Skip, Chuck, Dave Rolf etc. Try to find where I personally attack Mark Driscoll or CJ what’s his name? I don’t do it.

    I have much to say what I think may be wrong with their type of organization or how off kilter their theology may be. but that is usually my limit.

    Even Raul Ries who I listen to driving home from church sometimes – I don’t speak to his particular issues like you do – but I think his theology will send many to hell (if it is possible that a person’e preaching can do that.)

  73. Alex says:

    MLD you stated, “I speak to the offense, not the person.””

    No, that is incorrect, you speak “to the person” all the time with regards to me and many others. You make personal attacks often and name-call etc.

    You may not do it to Skip H, but you do it to me and others. Why don’t you practice what you preach and extend me the same courtesy as you extend to Skip H?

  74. Alex says:

    MLD, you know why you don’t speak specifically “to the person” with regards to Skip H. etc? For the same reason I’ve noted many times before: You have not been hurt or offended by Skip personally, but I and others have offended you so you feel it is OK to “speak to” us personally and vent.

    I and the others at CC Abuse have been personally hurt by CC pastors etc. We are doing the same thing you do to me on here, we’ve been offended and we speak to it “to the person”

    That is the point I’ve made over and over on here and you still don’t see it in your obtusity.

    You harp on folks venting at CC Abuse, yet you harp on me all the time b/c I’ve tweaked you and your buddies and you take offense.

    What was that statement you made to Paul Lytton?

    “You’re either stupid or the biggest hypocrite” or something to that effect?

  75. See Alex, that’s the real issue – it all has to be about you. This conversation today isn’t about abuse at CC at all – admit it – It’s about Alex and why everyone doesn’t do and say as Alex.

    Michael get’s kicked in the butt by Alex, because he doesn’t want to carry on Alex’s fight like Alex wants it done.

    Alex says bad things about me, Scott and the CC Steves, because we do not see things like Alex sees them.

    The way I talk about CC pastors is questionable because I do not castrate them verbally like Alex thinks they should be spoken about.

    Alex, you and I are in conversation – but I will tell you what. I will end the conversations if you are too thin skinned to receive the response.

    Let me know. But remember, life is not about Alex.

  76. And you have never offended me – nothing you do offends me. That would require that I have an interest in the life of Alex.

  77. Alex says:

    Yes, as predicted (to someone reading here)…pretty much the response I expected from you as you’ve demonstrated your intellectual dishonesty to the point you are a “Blog Theater” as you call it caricature (and others much agree).

  78. Alex says:

    I’ll take my leave so as not to be “top commenter” and dominate. You are what you are and that’s self evident. Later.

  79. victorious says:

    We will all get along in the heavenly kingdom.. After each one of us, small or great has to stand in private session in silence; hear the the voice that sounds like many waters, lock eyes with the one who has eyes with fire and then watch fire fall upon the works and words that comprised our lives; well, we will all be joyful, some,will be sober minded and others will begin their eternity living out their new found repentance spending their unlimited time and free schedule reconciling with the ones they manipulated and then some this side of heaven.

  80. Michael says:

    First off, the comment I made wasn’t exclusively about JD…I know of others in the same boat.
    I personally have biblical and ethical questions about a church hoarding that much cash,especially as a family owned business.
    I wont “stfu” because last time I checked I’m the one paying for this space.
    Any kind of organic change in any church requires those inside of it to make that change…it can’t be forced from the outside unless there is some legal issue brought to bear.
    That means that people have to be persuaded, not just insulted and demeaned.
    It means we have to bring people to the table and hear them in hopes of being heard ourselves.
    I’m hoping the cat does something this week I can write about…

  81. Oh No says:

    How about good cats crap in the “sand box”, not all over people. 🙂

  82. Michael,

    I am glad you brought up the fact that CCCM has such wealth and knows full well about John & Debbie Duncan amongst others. That cold hard reality should shock like sitting nude on winter steps of The CCCastle.

    I’m also heartened to have learned that John’s supporters include his former church and current pastor.

    This is the sad legacy of The Calvary Chapel Movement but it takes stepping away from the
    Illusion of Oz to see it for what it really is, because when you’re a part of it all you are too caught up in Chuck’s Magic Kingdom.

    The small franchise owners will only receive support from what they’ve built because there is no Federal model that pools resources. Sounds like the brutal Ayn Rand philosophy in action.

    Thing is, upon reflection, and with your help I came to realize that I was solely the reason I allowed myself to be romanced by a dream that I cooperated to perpetuate.

    Props to you for being a patient friend and pastor while you let me thrash about to work it my own salvation from The Movement.

    It pisses me off that you are ever vilified by a guest for hosting this place. Ingratitude chappes my keister like little else.

    We’re all dynamic on these subjects, and we get tired of them.

    As a musician I even hate my favorite songs when they’re overplayed, as we all do, because it’s a small world, after all…

  83. Alex,
    Let me be clear, because I am enjoying our rekindled friendship, I am NOT asking that you be banned. You’re obviously quite frustrated, but perhaps you are not recognizing your own pain is being misdirected toward Michael and the rest of us who love each other and love you as part of the community.

    I am , as a friend, asking you to refocus your frustrations and avoid lashing out at those who you interact with here. We are all completely supportive of seeing you prevail.

    Please give us all some credit, especially Michael.

    Don’t piss away goodwill. Acknowledge it, even in the smallest of amounts. THAT is the key to persuasion over pummeling.


  84. papiaslogia says:

    I’ve been around here for awhile, and seen lots of things around CC that I would hope bring change to the org from top to bottom. But with all the scandals, all the things discussed, all the people hurt by the machine….it just seems as though its never going to happen that way. PC will never change and CC will remain the “independent” legally, but will have the repsect of others in the tribe. Some CC pastors will be part of the good guys, but others will hurt and abuse and won’t be exposed until after they have done so.

    David Hocking – PC stepped in.
    Joe Sabiolick – PC stepped in.
    Skip – PC did nothing.

    I gave up on having PC as a role model when he admitted that Mike K had a “problem with the ladies” – he knew it, but did nothing to stop it. Because as we found out, there was LOTS of money at stake. Oh wait, he did nothing because CC is 100% independent…right. You gotta understand, PC was a role model for us in the SOM(yes, me too). While I never put him on a pedastel, to have him basically go back on what he preached for years(“Christians shouldn’t go to cout against one another, execpt when its over a pile of cash and I’m involved”), was another reason why he will never be “Papa Churck” to me again.

    I listened to KWVE this morning, and there was a guy on who mocked others for asking about financial accountability and tithing. I have no clue who he was, but his attitude was off. The only thing I could agree with him was when he said, “If you don’t trust the church with your money, then find one that you can trust.” He was being very sarcastic when the subject came to money, and maybe I’m sensitive about the issue, but I don’t think that subject that needs sarcasm from the pulpit.

    The problem is…people don’t ask questions of where the money is going because the pastor seems like a good guy, good teacher, whatever. Its almost like they absolve themselves of any responsibilty once the plate is passed? ‘Oh well, however the church uses the money I gave is now between them and God.”

    I have no problem with the church paying the bills and people paying for those, and to pay the pastor a salary. But when the church pays people scant wages to work at the church(CCCM does this to CCBC/SOM people – at least when I was there), takes money from parishoners to fund radio stations, and these stations end up being owned by PC and family? Guess what – thats not right.

  85. Papias says:

    Papias – not papiaslogia. Geez….. 😉

  86. Steve Wright says:

    This is my last comment in this thread. I imagine multiple responses are coming, but I will not address them here. Write me personally if you truly have a question or comment for me.

    I posted specifically on one aspect found in the comments – concerning education – and not on Michael’s chief point. I did so to show the both the inconsistency and absurdity of those always looking for a criticism.

    As to Michael’s point. I find it absolutely unworthy of discussion as he leaves it. Of course, in doing so, I am written off as simply a company man making a kneejerk defense, rather than a Christian with experience as a pastor.

    Nobody here knows how much and how often help is given by CCCM, when help might not even be requested, when help might be requested and denied. Nobody here knows how much is liquid and available for such help.

    Nobody here has spoken on whether the tithers to the work at one church are doing so to support others outside of their fellowship. And nobody has discussed the other very wealthy churches in the movement and if they have the same obligations, and if not, why. Nobody here has addressed how practically such assistance for those in need would work to have any effect, and nobody has discussed if there is even a right to screen whether others have been irresponsible in getting to their present plight.

    Nobody here has asked what about longtime assistants? What about longtime elders? Is only the Senior Pastor the obligation, because that would sure be inconsistent with all the criticism against the Senior Pastor model that is declared around here.

    Bottom line – Some church over there is rich. Someone else isn’t. And so they should give all theirs to the others. It’s called coveting and it isn’t very Christian but it sure is American these days.

  87. Oh No says:

    “As to Michael’s point. I find it absolutely unworthy of discussion as he leaves it. Of course, in doing so, I am written off as simply a company man making a kneejerk defense, rather than a Christian with experience as a pastor.”

    Gee Steve, by your very comments you are showing yourself as something you are trying to avoid.

    BTW, I’m sure you include yourself in “nobody”.

    I don’t expect an answer, I just had to comment on your comment.

  88. Nobody here says:

    there’s at least one person here (i suspect more) that was not looking at Michael’s pt.2 as singling out one church organization … perhaps, though, the question might be, should churches have large bank accounts/investments period? how much beyond operating expenses is enough? and just what are operating expenses, exactly? there’s some mighty big tangential businesses and, if the church is large enough, they are even courted by Washington (D.C., that is)

    the question, itself, is too big for me, though

  89. ( |o )====::: says:

    Well, if ever there was a comment designed to stifle discussion, playing the “coveting” card was a weak attempt. Being concerned for someone’s well being, attempting to address abuses, “oh my, brother-in-christ, beware, thou art coveting”…

    Um, well, no, we’re daring to challenge a paradigm that artificially props up the Chuckisms like, “Where God guides, God provides.”

    When the $ leaves my wallet and hits the offering plate or tithing account I’m expected to joyously trust The Movement and it’s stewardship, yet overlook anything that a reasonable man would ask about, but that my questions are not authored by God?

  90. Mark says:

    Gosh- I had heard of people whining about how their service to the Lord was going unnoticed and unrewarded- but I never actaully experiecned it until today on this thread. When we serve the Lord as unto the Lord- whether it be through cleaning toilets at the Church or preaching to thousands- we do it humbly and without expecting anyhting in return. To think or do otherwise is an abomination to God

  91. Mark says:

    If God does choose to reward us- that’s between us and God- and is nobody else’s business.

  92. Oh No says:

    Interesting comments Mark. I will now dismiss all the times I heard my former CC pastor quote Scriptures about how servants of God should be paid for their service.

  93. Oh No says:

    Servant = pastor

  94. I think when we clean toilets we are serving our neighbor – not the Lord. But that goes back to that pesky vocation stuff.that most Christians have no handle on.

  95. Em says:

    having cleaned a lot of toilets in my day, i confess that i do it to please myself … dirty toilets are an abomination and conquering one is humbling – makes me feel very self-righteous 😆

  96. Alex says:

    Steve Wright, bullpucky.

    I “know” much of what the money situation is and how much has gone to benevolence etc. I have sources who were there for 20 years on the inside and 11 years on the inside etc. and in positions to know how much family was getting paid, how much benevolence was going on and how much was being spent on other stuff. Not much literal help for those in need, especially compared to how much is dedicated to buildings, radio programs, conferences, trips, etc etc.

    If CCCM is doing so much real practical good with the money, maybe they should publish their finances so folks could see it, which would also double as accountability.

    I don’t trust them, Chuck lies a lot. I don’t think they’ll ever publish their finances b/c they don’t want folks to know how much they’re spending and on what.

    Didn’t a pastor at the last CCSPC say, “If you’ve got nothing to hide…you’ve got nothing to hide!” Well, then, don’t hide the finances. Pretty simple.

  97. Alex says:

    Just read this G: “Don’t piss away goodwill. Acknowledge it, even in the smallest of amounts. THAT is the key to persuasion over pummeling.”

    OK. Just really frustrated with the macro-situation today. It angers me when folks read the facts about Chuck/CC and don’t even blink as Michael said. Well, I blink. Big blinks.

  98. Alex says:

    G said, “When the $ leaves my wallet and hits the offering plate or tithing account I’m expected to joyously trust The Movement and it’s stewardship, yet overlook anything that a reasonable man would ask about, but that my questions are not authored by God?”

    Yup, don’t trust ’em. They’ve got good reason to hide the finances. They are TBN-lite.

  99. Alex,
    So spill the beans – how much does the family make and how much is spent on benevolence?
    If you had the info on TBN you would say.

  100. Em says:

    interesting – i was reading somewhere online this week that the correct salary for a the pastor should be equivalent to the salary for local high school principal, which in my state is right around $100k annually – plus benefits which adds another $40k or so … i am so out of it … i thought that $40k was a pretty good wage …

  101. brian says:

    1. Mr. Armstrong won, how he won is completely and totally irrelevant 2x^ that is what is required and you do, always do what is required win at any cost, your value as a human and a man is measured only by how much you win. (period). That is what these people are taught from day one, though it may be mitigated in some ways this is what our culture demands. You know my time at “special ed” was always such a kick, we often did not even know who one and everyone was having such a great time no one really cared. The community was so strong you could cut it up like a pie and enjoy it. I think we could learn something from this.

    2.I have a confession Im jealous and totally envious of those folks, if I had the blank I would be just like them, but being the coward I am I dont have the money to help people the way I would like. What I do do is fairly worthless in my opinion.

    3. Yes along with that germ theory, antivirals, transfusions, chemical imbalances, basically washing hands, stopping the disease cycle I e isolation, etc. Gravity, how to build planes, trains, radar, radio, computers, genetics, cosmology, geology, chemistry, the list really could go on and on and on and on.

    4. That verse does not apply to me.

    5.Amen PS one must also be able to admit they are wrong about their doctrine, I admit almost all of my doctrine is not in line with the historic Christian faith.

    6. I could be wrong but I think he stepped away as much as being uninvited. I dont know what the problem is, of course he is against same sex relationships, he has never really “hid” that fact.

    Thanks Michael for the forum I am often blessed by it.

  102. Scott says:

    Sooooo, I guess blinking and blinking big about a person, subject or cause is the measuring stick we use to judge (judge each other) as to whether or not we are standing on the “right” or “wrong” side of a matter.

    This is getting absurd.

    What if you aren’t blinking about the things I feel are unjust and that I am passionate about?

  103. Scott says:

    Em, I can assure you that a 40k annual wage isn’t nearly enough for an average family to raise a family. That is unless they are receiving food stamps, supplemented medical care, huge tax returns using the earned income credit, etc.

  104. Scott says:

    One more thought on my #103.

    What if I spent the next year on this blog making Barack Obama the center of almost every single post I made, telling all of you that I think he is liar, a deceiver and abuser of the constitution of the United States?

    I mean, like hundreds and thousands of post?. How long do you think people here would tolerate it? Especially those of you that voted for him? I guarantee you that the host of this blog would give me the boot after one month of that.

  105. Fly on a Wall says:

    Steve it is Pastor Steve, right? And you pastor a CC, right? Just to let everyone know where you’re coming from…

    it’s all about intent, or lets say it biblical prose, the heart. You and I know that many CC Bible college students and those that work in part time ministries (for free) at CCCM are dirt poor. Some do work crappy part time jobs, so they can continue their education, I know many personally, who do not have cars.

    Yes, it’s admirable that they work part time, while going to school in their off time, all to pursue a life in the ministry. That should be encouraged and commended, and even seen as litmus test of a true pastor’s heart. But at the same time, the reality is they’re dirt poor, their families are financially needy and lacking. CCCM should stand up and at least help these people out, because as Michael wrote above, they are a huge reason why CC’s movement is so successful. Maybe in extreme cases, CCCM has stood in the gap, but you and I know, there are way more that wish CCCM would stand in the gap.

    I’m just saying there’s so much need at CCCM, it’s a shameful testimony that they have stockpiled so much wealth (mostly due to the upper-class neighborhood that CCCM caters to) and if the congregation really knew how much of their support is not going to the poor (which in their cases, is right under their nose) there would be an ugly backlash.

    But who knows? Everyday I’m more convinced it’s not ignorance that lead to inactivity, it’s lack of care.

    BTW: CCCM is not the worst culprit of this, but the quality of life between the head pastor and a fledgling assistant pastor is staggering.

    And this doesn’t apply to everyone. I’ve been involved at CCCM in a previous life, I’m speaking from people who had gone through there and their struggles. Of course being a Bible College student doesn’t entitle you to pay. If the student’s family is well off, and they are still being supported, why should the church support them? As you stated, they’re getting almost a free education. The tithes should go to help the needy and the poor.

  106. Fly on a Wall says:

    Another I should mention, in CC’s favor, many do stay at CCCM because of the connections that can be made there. There’s a lot of power behind the little dove, and to align yourself under it, is a good start to a successful ministry. So there’s ulterior motives, not all pure.

    But, imho of course, poor is poor. When I help the poor, I don’t judge them as drug user, lazy, crook, etc… I help them for the simple fact they’re poor and they have a need that needs to be met. That is what Jesus did too.

    I would be thrilled to have that kind of money, so I could give it to the poor, knowing that money wasn’t going to cigarettes or beer.

  107. erunner says:

    Fly….. Here in Orange County, Ca. there are people everywhere asking for money. At gas stations young people approach you for bus fare or gas money when it’s clear they’re lying. A big thing you see are women carrying babies asking for money and quite often they approach church’s. Then there are the people who set up a table with a sign asking for donations right next to a sign that says they aren’t welcome to be doing that. They are typically crooks.

    So it’s next to impossible at least where I circulate to find poor people who are legitimately needy. What I have done a few times is when I can see a person in line ahead of me at the store is hurting financially I go ahead and pay for their stuff. Otherwise I don’t trust the people I come into contact with. This doesn’t tie into the CC situation being discussed but when you mentioned the poor I figured I’d respond. Hope you’re well.

  108. London says:

    Seriously? You can find people in true need? That stuns me

  109. Fly on a Wall says:

    “So it’s next to impossible at least where I circulate to find poor people who are legitimately needy. ”

    Really. Wow, man. I don’t know what to say. I don’t know your whole story, I know you can’t go into big crowds, right? But you don’t have to look far to see someone in need, especially in this economy.

    Have you tried talking to some people at church? There aren’t people who have lost jobs, are having their house foreclosed, have trouble keeping on the heat, etc…??? Maybe browse through the prayer list, I’m sure there’s tons of people asking for prayer, you can shoot them an email asking if they need help.

  110. in defense of Erunner, i read his remark a little differently – i thot he meant that when you are out and about in his area of L.A., you don’t *see* the needy, rather you see opportunists posing or making a living as “needy”? panhandling? dunno

    also, Scott’s point is understood and well taken that one can’t raise a family (or buy a home, perhaps) on $40k … that probably has a lot to do with the unavoidable evil of the two income families and latch-key kids
    but a single person can get by on that amount … i say “get by” because i do realize that it puts one in the category of the working poor, if they’re without health insurance – maybe not in New York City, tho … 🙂

    God keep

  111. erunner says:

    London and Fly, Em described my situation obviously better than I did. I bring up the people I encounter when I’m out because they get away with it and use the money for whatever they’re into. Financially we are in a very tight situation so as far as money goes there isn’t much there to help out with as there used to be.

    As far as people in need we know more of them personally than I wish as it hurts to see them struggle. Yesterday a relative of a relative was having major back pain and the doctor told her what she needed to take. The problem was she didn’t have the money for it. As I’ve been going through the grinder physically these last three months I have extra pain meds just sitting here so I was able to give them to her. She was so thankful and so ashamed to have had to ask.

    I’m sure I could do more for others in other ways but I’m a bit limited in where I can go and what I can do. It’s a joy to be able to help others and something many of us could do more of. I hope this clarifies things a bit.

  112. “Truly needy”

    Start by tipping your server a minimum of 20%, you will make an immediate impact in the life of someone who is truly needy

  113. Chile says:

    I live in a wealthy area and attend a wealthy church (though not my preference.) I appreciate that the church takes a monthly separate offering for needs of people in our church and community. 100% of the offering is reported and 100% goes to help those in need. For those who don’t want to support the massive church structure and its 1.5 million paid to service the debt each year, can still give joyously and generously to help people.

    I may despise the debt, dislike the size, and disagree with other issues, but I love the well organized, non-judgmental helping of our fellow man. Btw, they take in boatloads as a result. Every penny is accounted for and reported … Has been for about 68 years! Impressive!

  114. Chile says:

    In my area the poor are not readily visible. Many have been hit hard by the economy. The Tech Bubble burst here a long time ago. Many had to reinvent themselves when they lost their jobs, unfortunately many went into real-estate just as that industry plummeted.

    Many lost their homes, ate the kid’s college fund, used their 401k’s to float them while they looked for jobs that didn’t pan out. In the end, many lost it all and came to the church as they were threatened with homelessness or hunger.

    These same people drive up in nice vehicles wearing nice clothes. You wouldn’t know if they didn’t tell you.

    We’ve had 2 people tell us of how they lost millions and ended up sleeping in their cars. It happens. The poor are under our noses, cause sometimes people need help to get through a season. But they won’t tell you unless you really care and ask.

  115. brian says:

    In the faith communities to say I was repudiated for the things I list would be nice. It usually went like this, I want attention, Im proud, I am a liar oops I mean LIAR, manipulative, playing the guilt card etc. I live a very very frugal life, I dont go any where have not taken a vacation for well 30 years, willing to scrub toilets for fix them etc.

    As for tipping people, 20% is my low end time I have tipped as much as 100% if I “feel lead”. For some reason that use to really tick off people of faith when we would go out to lunch or dinner. If someone got the order even a little bit wrong it was our job to share the love of God by reaming them in every orifice we could find, then make some more. Now I have not gone out with Christians for a long time but that is how I remember it. I have heard stories from local restaurant people that Christians are the best tippers and always forgiving. So what I think I am doing here is, I hyper focus on a few experiences because of past hurts. I actually think this is how much of my emotions are working. So I do not trust my memories and reflections in this area. But I offer it because it might give an example how we can allow our past to really color reality. I think I keep picking at the scabs on my heart and soul trying to rationalize the hurt. One cannot rationalize hurt, it just hurts. So instead of allowing the healing salve of Christ and His Holy Spirit to heal me I keep picking at it.

    I want justice, not for the names called or indiscretions but because I “feel” so lied to. But I have to be honest and I have said this before, my remembering of “facts” about past hurts are not fully accurate, if I was an outside person listening to me I would doubt my recollections. Intellectually I know most pastors 95% of them live exemplary lives and are way above board.

    There is this church down the street, they are a “mega church” and Charismatic I E assembly of God church. The pastor is some guy who is one of those glow in the dark kind of guys. They make you mad because they love Christ so much they convict you just by walking by you. If you need conviction. They had debt on the church but they held a get out of debt move at the church so they had an MBA CPA person come in and drone on and one about the money, explaining in detail what they want to do and what their vision in. Any one who gives goes in with eyes wide open and with a flashlight. Their books are actually in the office during business hours and anyone can come in and look. One may disagree where they spend the money but it is all up front and voted on, and I mean everything is voted on my the congregation or the elected elders. The elders are elected by the congregation not the pastor. They have bylaws to back up the bylaws that are revamped, get this every year with full response of the membership. They even let non members speak to needs as desired. They are out of debt, I mean entirely, also the church owns the property not any one pastor, that is in the pastor “contract”. It is extremely detailed and refined with experience. They had some issues, a pastor back in the day was caught in a relationship not his wife. He was “exposed” like this. They relieved him of his position and continued to support his wife and his kids. They offered support to the other “women” and he was given a group of contact to the congregation. And it was made clear no bad mouthing of the wife would be tolerated, support for any anger toward the pastor and they moved on. All the elders and pastors came out in front of the congregation and said this is what we found out, this is what we did and why and we are willing to talk to anyone about what we did and said. So the elders stayed around for hours after this was announced to talk with people.

    It was sad but amazing to see this and it did help the church heal.

  116. BrianD says:

    Linkathon is coming, Wednesday evening.

  117. brian,
    It sounds like you are out of excuses – it looks like you have a church that suits you perfectly – right down the street. Your job now is to join it and become an active member.

  118. Fly on a Wall says:

    Brian, were you a pastor? I knew a Pastor Brian, and unfortunately, he fit that first paragraph to a tee. 🙁

    I don’t know what to say to you, just that I enjoy reading your comments and they bring a smile to my face (although I feel you’re poking fun at all of us at time, which is ok, everyone deserves to be poked once in a while). I feel you got a story to tell and someday I hope you tell it. Your nuggets of wisdom are fascinating. I remember this Pastor Brian giving an entire message on Christians being bad tippers, and how we needed to go out to lunch that day and tip over 20%!!! Hahahaha.. OMG, I can laugh now… that was a horrible message, BTW.

    As for the past to color our present… well… there’s truth to that. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, etc… I will admit after my string of bad church experiences, I cannot attend a church service without secretly thinking in the back of my head, “This guy is such a fraud.” But such is life, and that’s my daily struggle.

    As for past hurts, well, I don’t see it as a scab. I see a scar, a painful reminder, that will not go away… as hard as I try to forget and it has been years… something does not let me forget. One of the reasons I don’t forget is the same abuses keep occurring, only to a new set of victims. It’s kinda of like Alex (although me on a much smaller scale) and his relentless fanaticism to bring to light Calvary Chapel’s abuses. He can’t let it go because it continues to happen….. have you ever wondered why? Why doesn’t Grenier just do a fake apology, buy him off, then have him and the kids over for Thanksgiving? It would’ve made life so much easier. But no… he decides to SUE him. Have you ever wondered if God is behind CC Abuse, his blog? (Oh dear, I’m going to turn into a pile of ash, as soon as I click POST, aren’t I? )

    So, dear Brian, as long as there’s abuse going on in the church, I cannot stop, I cannot forget.

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