Things I Think…

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84 Responses

  1. Dread says:

    Discussing the nature of the kingdom of God might still revive that discussion. I maintain that Chuck Smith did as much to ruin that discussion as any man alive. Conspiratorial futurism is the mother of conspiracy theories. The death of a generation of failed inferred prophecies (1948,1967) has left a washed out legacy.

    So, the kingdom of God is here, now and increasing. That’s my claim. Heaven is not the kingdom. There is no 1000 year dictatorship of Jesus. And Israel is simply a secular nation and not a sacred sign. Anyone want to talk kingdom?

  2. Josh says:

    I would love to talk Kingdom, but will admit I was reared in the futurist 1,000 year reign school, so I’m better off learning than adding to much. Will definitely be ready with a bunch of questions though.

  3. Dread says:

    For 30 years of my public ministry there was no toleration for dissent on millennium, rapture, antichrist, or great tribulation. The categorical hegemony of dispensational theology was nearly complete. But it had a shelf life and people like myself emerged saying — no , those categories do not even properly exist as constituted.

    I began to speak in the 90s. By 2000 I found there was life beyond “left behind” which I happily left behind.

    Jesus is the king (Christ), the anointed Davidic promised one. His rule is sure but it is not in the body politic. It is in the Holy Spirit.

    Kingdom present is simply knowing and following Jesus.

    He reigns and we await the consummation even as the 1st century awaited his incarnation.

  4. Dread says:

    The signs of the kingdom were properly located in the Olivet Discourse. Their inauguration was improperly transported to 1948 and then 1967. No. The date was AD 70. That was when Israel reached its ‘telos.’ That was when his church became the locus of his family.

    The church has been compromised but he warned us of the false prophet masquerading as his voice. He warned us of the enemies that were coming. The embodying of principalities and powers by human institutional hypocrisy. (Masking)

    So here we are — let’s talk kingdom

  5. Joel Brown says:

    Trying to live #10 right now.
    And #6… yes. Whether prayer book or utterances of the Spirit, yes. I am finding it increasingly difficult to find suitable words these days

  6. Bob Sweat says:

    Dread,
    Well stated!!!!!

  7. Michael says:

    Joel,

    If I were in your place I’d have run out of words long ago…praying for you often to stay courageous and hopeful…

  8. Dread says:

    Dunn – the Spirit is the present-ness of the kingdom. Oh yes!!!

  9. Dread says:

    Twitter’s new board member and largest stock holder is Elon Musk.

    In a day that so much public speech occupies privately self-invested hands, time to reconsider the rules of censorship.

    Anyway Elon could make it interesting.

  10. Josh says:

    I will say that if this is his kingdom, this is quite a letdown.

  11. Duane Arnold says:

    Josh

    Agreed… Kingdoms made of sand but announced with fervor…

  12. Em says:

    Josh, “Thy kingdom come….”
    We are still waiting, but now we put on our God supplied armor and stand!
    God keep

  13. Dread says:

    Imagine the Hebrews disappointment when the writer told them to leave Jerusalem because they were receiving a kingdom that could not be shaken.

    Let us go to him outside the camp bearing his reproach for here we have no enduring city.

  14. Josh says:

    Do it has always been lame? Is this a fake it til u make it thing?

  15. JD says:

    When I don’t have the words to pray, I allow the Holy Spirit to pray through me. I need this more often these days especially.

  16. Michael says:

    “Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.”
    (Hebrews 2:8 ESV)

    The thing about the Scriptures is they do not lie if you give them enough air.

    Jesus is ruling, but we don’t yet have the fullness of the kingdom.

    By faith…I believe it’s on the way…and I see it break through now and then…but not often enough for my tastes.

  17. Reuben says:

    I have watched you do #10. I was in utter anguish this morning watching your first video. Know this, the raging anti-theist that lurks here is inspired daily by watching you serve people in the most heart breaking conditions I can imagine. There is extermination at your door step, but you rejoice in the beds, the toys, the water heaters, and the people who have found hope together with you in this time.

  18. Linn says:

    #9-joy in the small things…I’m currently sitting in my armchair with my cat camped out on my lap, belly up, sound asleep. That brings joy. So does being greeted in Spanish at the bank by a former student who is entering high school in the fall. All those Spanish lessons in elementary school stuck. I often wonder how many of these moments I miss because I am consumed with so many more “important” things.

    As to theological discussions, I enjoy them. But the discussion recently seems to come back to one theme, and the same people-that I don’t like so much.

  19. Em says:

    More sorrowful than the atheist is the man who says, there is a God,,” but makes no attempt to find Him…. IMNSHO

  20. Dan from Georgia says:

    #2. There is a documentary out there called “Chosin” about Korean War battle at the Chosin Resevoir. I have an uncle who died there in that battle. The documentary is very graphic and gritty, not visually graphic, as it’s all interviews with Korean War vets.

    This stands in contrast to a coworker (here we go) who thinks that what you are seeing in the media about Ukraine is not real or it’s staged.

  21. Michael says:

    Reuben,

    I was talking with Trey’s mom about this…when you’re poor, sometimes joy is easier to find.
    Having hot water, a healthy cat…nobody died today…
    She had some tulips blooming that were breathtaking…it was a good day…

  22. Muff Potter says:

    Dread ~ April 5, 2022 at 2:04 pm:
    Well put and I agree.
    Smith sold us a bill of wonk goods that never panned out like he said it was gonna’.

  23. JTK says:

    Dread,
    I want to talk about the kingdom.

    I’ve spent more than a dozen hours listening to some of your sermons, i’ve been in morning coffee discussions where you’ve talked about it, and I believe Ive asked you some questions.

    Is this an appropriate forum?

    First, is there a term you gravitate toward that categorizes your system of belief right is? “Partial preterist?” “Amil?”

    I’ll wait before I ask more. My questions are all genuine.

  24. jtk says:

    Reuben and Michael,
    WHAT video?!

    I wanna see this!

  25. Reuben says:

    JTK,

    Joel Brown, who spoke earlier in this thread, puts a couple Facebook live videos up a day, they revolve around the work he is doing in the Ukraine

  26. Reuben says:

    This is the one I was referring to earlier

    https://www.facebook.com/jsterlingbrown/videos/387196506339278/

  27. Robin says:

    Chuck Smith was also partly responsible for something great – the Jesus Movement where hippies and youth were living the counter cultural message of Jesus. For me it was Hal Lindsay’s the late great planet earth that popularized this type of apocalyptic futurism as well as the left behind series.

  28. Nathan Priddis says:

    Dread. You know I’m a sucker for Kingdom conversations. Your just tossing red meat now.

    BTW. Smith was just popularizing Darby’s error in Daniel about an Anti-Christ signing a mid-trib treaty.

  29. Em says:

    Robin, Three of my dear relatives are in heaven today thanks to the counseling they received from Chuck Smith….
    Hal Lindsay on the other hand…. an opportunist? an exploiter? God knows, I don’t, but……

  30. Steven says:

    In the larger (i.e: off of a handful of websites) Christian context: Theological discussions require people actually having knowledge of the topic, a willingness to discuss, a willingness to admit others have valid point, willingness to admit error, mutual respect, and the ability to think for yourself.

    Unfortunately, most “netizens” lacks most (if not all) of these qualities. And, in “real life” sheeple are too influenced by those sources who do the thinking for them, so actual discussion is unattainable.

    And #9 has always been a struggle for me. It’s easy to be genuinely thankful, but to live in the joy of these things…yeah, big challenge.

  31. Josh says:

    The problem is that when you dig into any of the millennial theories, each falls apart at some point. Much like I said about Calvinism, certain people are drawn to the pre-mil position because it has a tighter system, answers more questions, make use of more scriptures…but in the end it falls short. Maybe the scriptures weren’t meant to be overlaid and deciphered in such a way. Maybe there is just not much we can really know about the end.

  32. pstrmike says:

    “Everyone should own a couple of prayer books so they can find words when they don’t have their own…”

    These days, I am more interested in prayer than theology. Every systematic theology has its achilles heal, which is actually that they are as subjective as our prayer theology and practice.

    As to the Kingdom, George Eldon Ladd has written some good, thoughtful works…but I’m out of town, so I won’t be joining this discussion until I get home.

    Good to see you hear Reuben, and yes, I’m praying for you…. peace

  33. Dread says:

    When I talk kingdom millennial views are subtexts. They help but they aren’t final for the reasons Josh points to.

    But when people say millennium they mean kingdom in some fashion.

    The kingdom of God is our subject if we faith Jesus, but as King he brings kingdom.

    His kingdom is not the light of any human government. They are all beastly caricatures. His kingdom is ‘in’ the Holy Spirit.

    Our experiential poverty leads us to pursue human substitutes…ALL of us.

    Michael calls us to leave those things. I give him hell over it because … well – we want some kind of solution. And frankly we participate in corporate life and this we all are ‘of the city’ the polis and thereby political.

    But kingdom life and experience is accessible to all. It is relational, dynamic and it is as Jesus said ‘in us.’ God can only rule from within. Other things rule over us.

  34. Dread says:

    *thus we are

  35. Nathan Priddis says:

    Josh. All the eschatological systems run into problems as they are explored in greater detail. Doctrine is like DNA, its tough to alter any minor detail without an unintended result.

    As far as know about the end..it’s a yes. Yes we can. And a lot.
    We have the advantage of being born in a latter era of Church history.

    -We can read..when much of humanity couldn’t.
    -Access to ideas and knowledge outside our village or local peasant surroundings.
    -The era of Liberalism allowed open discussion of ideas without fear of reprisal.
    -Basic knowledge of our Universe began circa Newton, and led to concepts of Relativity and Quantization by 1930.

    Daniel said knowledge would increase. Latter humanity will increasingly aquire knowledge. This is frightening, but real. There are reasons God wrote his Word with details missing.

  36. Josh says:

    “As far as know about the end..it’s a yes. Yes we can. And a lot.”

    But will you really be surprised if the end comes and we find out that all we though we knew was wrong?

  37. Dread says:

    Am I preterist?

    Only in that – much of what we futurize has been finished — AD 70. Not the system of preterism — all systems have impish outcomes.

    Am I amil?

    Not as fully as I was but yes in that I see the kingdom as not a definite 1000 and not a time of Jesus ruling on a throne in Jerusalem.

    Yes in that the system points to archetypal clues that inform us as to the behavior of principalities and powers.

    What am I —- Thou knowest Lord that I am thine —-

  38. Shawn says:

    #9- Joy is an interesting topic and is unfortunately associated with some type of outward jovial expression. I was reading a passage in 1st Chronicles as I am currently studying the prominent place the Scripture places on Agricultural, Ecology, Biodiversity, etc.. The passage recounts the return of the people from the Babylonian captivity along with the number of “beasts of burden” that came along with them. It was interesting to discover that there were three or four times as many donkeys as the next largest group. This got me started thinking about animals and the role they still play in much of the world. This is one component that I feel is missing from our permaculture set-up but that is another story.

    Shortly after this talley of animals was a comment that there was a great joyful feast. So what is my point? In time I have softened and not just physically either. For the most part I can be a no-nonese stoic kind of person. However, certain things, small and previously insignificant things bring me joy. Flowers, like Michael also mentioned, are one. However, I used not prefer flowers that did not have an utilitarian use. So everything we planted that flowered also had to be a viable food source. Until my wife convinced me to get Daffodils. Now I should mention that they were not just your standard yellow Daffodils either. Fast forward five years later and now they are blooming prolifically. The subtle stately beauty of creamy outer petals and Peach colored center bring a sense of joy to my heart not only for their stunning beauty but for the promise they point forward to- Spring and hopefully one day a lush harvest.

    Anyway, I derailed myself but all of this let me to the realization of three observations about simple things bringing joy:

    1) in many ways nature mimics God’s coming kingdom, or maybe I should say is an expression of the promise it points to. My trees may not bear fruit all twelve season or bringing healing to the nation’s but the point toward it especially when they start bearing significant fruit.
    2) Animals in all their peculiar forms not only can be used to relieve our physical burdens but often with their peculiar quirks (like my cat who purrs like a dove when he melts into your arms) may have been so designed in order to lighten our other loads and bring moments of restful (even humorous) joy.
    3) The Bible seems to place an emphasis on joyful feasting which includes Kingdom of God imagery. Makes me think that my Green Smmothies and Brassica platters should bring me more joy especially when I consider the alternative- 9.1 A1C, High Multiple daily Hemoglobin scores (190-300), medications that do very little to curb them while causing my heart rate to drastically fluctuate. While I am trying to figure out the balance with my liver I have much to be joyous about seeing how my A1C is 5.9 after six months of changing my diet (at the three month mark it was 5.8). After this realization I am approaching meals more joyously. While it may be subjective it is Biblical. Lol.

  39. Michael says:

    Shawn…that was really good stuff.
    Thank you!

  40. Michael says:

    “Michael calls us to leave those things. I give him hell over it because … well – we want some kind of solution.”

    I want solutions too…and I believe they will only be found after we leave…

  41. Officerhoppy says:

    As has already been said, every eschatological position is as strong as it’s weakest argument—and they all have them!

    For me all i know for sure is he’s coming again. So, i try my best to advance the work of the kingdom which, to me, is to “ To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”

    I want to be found doing these things when he returns rather than arguing eschatology. But that’s me.

  42. Reuben says:

    Speaking of theological discussions, “Her Gates Will Never Be Shut” by Bradly Jersak is giving me serious pause on one massive soteriology issue I have tough god on for years…

  43. Dread says:

    You’d like Brad,

    He’s one of a kind…brilliant scholar, genuine soul, tender heart. He’s part of a growing contingent of scholars who are fairly devoted to reconstructing the deconstructed via a reimagined soteriology. He’s been in my church, my former church, several times and is returning to our city. Brad has also become Orthodox and seems to follow some of the early fathers in a kind of incipient universalism.

    These discussions must be had. As a teacher these topics are not out of bounds. But thus far the universalist option is still largely considered outside the parameters of historic truth. The Second Council of Constantinople condemned it and it wasn’t really revived until the late 18th and early 20th centuries but it has gained ascendency among the young who are scandalized by all vestiges of exclusion.

  44. Reuben says:

    It’s gaining ascendency with this old former CC pastor who has been scandalized by all vestiges of religion, period. If this holds water, my comprehension of the god I was taught, and the god I taught simply does not exist as perceived.

  45. Dread says:

    Reuben

    You would enjoy his other works A More Christlike God and A More Christlike Way, which I am sure you have found. You can find Brad on any number of podcasts sharing his findings in really appealing ways.

  46. Eric says:

    I was shaped by many years of a fundamental, conservative interpretation of the the triune God and the scriptures and many years in CC and I really thought I was ok with mystery…I guess to a degree I was. However, having left it all in an attempt to follow the Lord I realize that so much of what I believed about God was really an attempt to control him and my future by putting God into my little denominational/hermaneutic box. I can see now that mostly it was born of fear…fear of the future, fear of the present and a tremendous unwillingness to truly give up control and let God be who he truly is…the almighty, sovereign of the universe (see Job 38-42).

    I read something by Richard Rohr a year or two ago that really brought it home for me. Can’t say I like it at times but I do accept it and seek to embrace the truth of it…and therefore accept the true God behind it.

    Now, believe it or not, we are threatened by such a free God because it takes away all our ability to control or engineer the process. It leaves us powerless, and changes the language from any language of performance or achievement to that of surrender, trust and vulnerability…that is the so-called “wildness” of God. We cannot control God by any means whatsoever, not even by good behavior, which tends to be our natural instinct…That utter and absolute freedom of God is fortunately used totally in our favor, even though we are still afraid of it…It is called providence, free election or mercy…But to us it feels like wildness – precisely because we cannot control it, manipulate it, direct it, earn it or lose it. Anyone into controlling God by his or her actions will feel very useless, impotent and ineffective.

    -Richard Rohr

    Whenever the perplexity of life and what God is or is not currently doing seem to get on top of me…I am reminded of Hebrews 6,

    “And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.”

    If I am not seeing the reward I just acknowledge that the story is not finished yet…heaven and earth may pass away but what he has said will never pass away. It may not look like what my limited understanding has thought but it will be good precisely because He is good.

  47. Officerhoppy says:

    Regarding Chuck Smith and the Jesus movement, the question I ask is what came first, the messenger or the message. I think Chuck just responded to the need and desire of the time which was personal fulfillment. That was the perceived need of the time. The “I found it crusade” understood what people wanted. The phrase that seems to summarize the desire of the culture was “there is a god shaped hole in everyone that only good can fill”.

    Iam not sure that message gets much traction today. Seems like the desire is for justice, equality, equity. Most sermons seems more aligned with the thought of advancing the kingdom of God on planet earth.

    There is a lot of talk about how much Jesus loved us but little about propitiation. Seems all Jesus accomplished on the cross. Was freeing people from the dominion of evil. Because of Jesus we can, as the army as ”be all that we can be.

    While I believe that to be true, a just and holy good pouring out his wrath on sin is not in step with the current culture.

    So my point is, the messenger just serves the message culture will receive.

    At least that’s a partial explanation of Chuck’s popularity and reception. I am not a sociologist but Iam a product of the Jesus movement, a CC former CC pastor, and observed the changes I’ve described take place.

  48. Shawn says:

    Michael, your welcome but most of all thank you for the encouragement. You do not know how greatly it is appreciated.

  49. Shawn says:

    #1- How I would LOVE to partake in robust theological discussions. I actually have enjoyed reading through many of them in this post. I wish I had the energy to interact with all of them. There is some really good discussion materials here.

    Unfortunately, it takes too much energy that I need to put towards staying financially afloat (in CC Bible College and later in Seminary personal finance was not something readily discussed or taught. I was lucky enough to sort of go to Bible College for free but trust me I paid for it at least 100x’s over in unpaid labor, oh wait I mean ministry training. However, for seminary I was nudged towards financing it with Student Loans with very minimal counsel, literally five to ten minutes each semester most of which was filling out the paperwork, as to what that debt actually meant and how rapidly it grows).

    On a side note accruing debt for education is a genius way of keeping the poor that way especially when it is marketed as the path to a better life. It plays on people’s desperation to break out of the cycle of poverty. It often does the opposite. By the way just to be clear as mud I am not advocating for free education or student loan forgiveness though it would be personally advantageous.

    Where was I before I started following imaginary six foot Rabbits. Ah yes… Then what leftover time and energy I have I am planting food because a 25% increase on food and almost double the price of gas is killing us financially.

    All this to say, I pray God would be merciful and grant me more energy and time because I THRIVE on robust theological interactions and discussions with you all.

  50. Shawn says:

    In the last paragraph it should read “I would thrive…”

  51. Michael says:

    Shawn,

    Whenever you post here it is thoughtful and worth reading.
    It is much appreciated.
    we look forward to you having more time to speak…

  52. Steven says:

    OfficerHoppy: Your analysis seems spot on. For what it’s worth (not much, I assure you), I appreciate your ways of thinking/analyzing things…especially CC-related.

  53. BrideofChrist says:

    My husband and I went to church with Richard Rohr for many years at a Calvary Chapel in So Cal . My husband, a musician, led the worship service every Sunday morning with another lady from our church there ! Richard is the real deal – a wonderful Christian who changed the course of my life in many ways!

  54. BrideofChrist says:

    Sorry, I confused Richard Rohr with Pastor Richard Rahr ( also an author) ! Only one letter is different in their names. Interesting that Richard Rohr once spoke at Calvary Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

  55. Everstudy says:

    Shawn,

    When were you at CCBC? I was up in Twin Peaks 1993-1994 (with Corby who posts here sometimes).

  56. Shawn says:

    @everstudy
    I forgot that when mentioning attending CCBC I should delineate between Twin Peaks, Murrieta, and other (the many extension or affiliate campuses tied to local churches). I went to one of the extension colleges in Southern CA at the end of 90’s.

  57. Nathan Priddis says:

    Dread, etc all.
    Preterism foundation is the Judea Roman War. The narrative Preterism relys on, is not an actual account of the War. Preterism was developed by non-Jews after the fact. There is no way to know what, if any accurate history, Preterism’s developers knew. To be fair, we today mostly rely of the account of Joseph’s Flavius, a highly complicated witness.

    Regardless of historical facts circulating in following centuries, the Fall of Jerusalem has limited fulfillment of prophecy.

    To name just two problem areas, I could pick Matthew 24. And Daniel’s 70 weeks.
    Little of Matt 24 deals with AD 70. This is due to the Apostles asking 3 separate questions at the start. The Temple question was limited to it’s demolishing, not larger questions of war in general.

    Daniel’s Seventy Weeks..
    This is a story problem just like grade school. Ironically, it’s Pre-Mil that is most illogical, because of the importance it places on the 70. You would think Pre-Mill would carefully account for all the weeks and bamed events.

    If AD 70 is the culmination, then you have to show your work. All eschatologies do 1 of 2 things.. Undershoot, and lack enough years to reach fulfillment. Or Overshoot, fulfillment is reached, but excess years remain. It needs to balance to zero. If you reach zero, you correctly assembled the puzzle pieces.

  58. Dread says:

    Nathan,

    Make your case… I reject most of what you posted above but you did not make a case, Over the years I have worked these things out in this space a few times… and in embracing the AD70 telos I have adjusted over the years as well.

    Show us your work since you think that is the necessity.

  59. Josh says:

    ” It needs to balance to zero. If you reach zero, you correctly assembled the puzzle pieces.”

    I think I can safely say this will never happen.

  60. Dread says:

    I will also point out that I did not begin a discussion about end time scenarios but rather the kingdom of God… of course the linkage is almost necessary.

    Anyone who names Jesus LORD is in the kingdom thus at least in that small measure the kingdom is present here and now. So I begin there.

    Jesus is LORD

  61. Josh says:

    Dread – In your view, when New Jerusalem descends from the sky (Rev 21), Is that an actual, physical place? If so, is it already a reality, or is it still to descend in the future?

    If it is symbolic, is it symbolic of a present reality or future event?

    Whether real or symbolic, is NJ an eternal city or temporary?

    No gotchas – was teaching on death and resurrection recently and had trouble placing that.

  62. Muff Potter says:

    Priddis & Dread:
    Does it always have to be in terms of a straight linear function?
    Papa Chuck, Missler, Lindsey, and others were all strict linearists, who believed that their view of certain passages in Holy Writ are points which lie on a straight line into the future.
    I abandoned that approach years ago.
    I now think of human history as a kind of sine wave, rise and fall, with types and shadows out of Scripture repeating themselves, until God gets good and ready to closes up shop with the real McCoy.

  63. Michael says:

    Josh,

    While we wait for Dread…the descent of the New Jerusalem is symbolic of heaven and earth becoming one place…the answer to “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”… there will be a reality to that and it includes my cats and all I hope for these days…the redemption and re-creation of all things…

  64. Josh says:

    So Michael – in your view, the measurements, etc. are symbolic, and New Jerusalem is the eternal state?

  65. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Yes, it’s all symbolic, but there is a reality behind the symbols…it is the new garden, where God tabernacles with His people in the renewed and redeemed creation.
    I’ll still be in Oregon…:-)

  66. Josh says:

    Do you think John new it was a symbolic vision, or do you think he thought of it as a real future event?

  67. Michael says:

    My guess is that he thought it was both, which is the correct view… 🙂

  68. Chris Long says:

    Like many here, largely taught the CC-centered mode of eschatology, some of which I’ve definitely been more questioning in recent times. Cetainly don’t have all the answers regarding the Kingdom, but I do have this piece which is something the Lord has been swirling around in me for some time and just recently wrote on. For anyone interested it’s at: https://bodequip.org/articles/eternalnow.html

  69. JimmieT says:

    At first glance I’m really encouraged by what I read. Will certainly peruse it when I have more time.

  70. Dread says:

    Josh

    No verse of scripture stabbed me more awake on realized eschatology than this;

    “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better
    word than the blood of Abel.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    You HAVE COME…to the heavenly Jerusalem — New Jerusalem in Rev 21 looks not like a place for us to dwell but a people in whom God dwells.

    And I am most certain that John saw a symbolic vision of reality.

    Who asked “linear?” No! Re 12 alone dashes that and the constant circling back to judgment scenes.

    I sound dogmatic but I’m working at it like everyone.

    It’s the kingdom we seek

  71. Em says:

    Hebrews 9:24-28

  72. Nathan Priddis says:

    Josh. We can, over the course of our lives, and depending upon talents we are given, search out the Scriptures. Being born in a literate latter century society, with access to technology, bestows immense talent.
    ..It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.. To read and be mindfull of the Scriptures, does result in discerning facts.

    I consider myself to have a 5th grade reading comprehension. I was taught well in school prior to an regrettable event that altered my life. My recollection of the early years was flash cards, timed reading comprehension and strict Fundamentalist discipline.

    Modern Evangelicalism as an adult DRIVES…ME..CRAZY.. Part of it is lack of attention to the text. With some, there is no text at all.. More like a bong hit for Jesus.

    70 Weeks…
    Go read the text. It starts at Daniel 1:1.
    -We are at 3 1/2 years…Plus the cleansing of the Temple. The Seventy was a decree. It was later modified. No attention…. is paid by any eschatology to that modification. Therefore..all eschatologies…are off by a minimum of 3 1/2 years.

    -The Anti-Christ (person)
    A fabrication resulting from a grade school level reading error. If the text is talking about the Messiah, and calls him “he,” a 5th grade comprehension demands that an alternate identity not be inserted mid- paragraph.

    There is a spirit of anti- christ, and has been since the time of the Apostles. Its not a proper name, just as Christ is not a proper last name. Christ/Annointed is a role, a commission, that a sacred person or object plays. Jesus of Nazereth was audiably pronounced annointed, as the Spirit descended upon him at the Jordan. This is mirrored in the earthly practices of the Tabernacle when a Priest accepts and laid hands on a sacrifice.

    Anti means other. A different anointing. In latter text, we learn there are many anti-christ. Dime a dozen.

    -Mid-Trib Anti-Christ treaty with Jews to authorize rebuilding of the Temple.
    This is a reading error of Daniel. There is no such Jewish treaty mentioned in the text. The actual event was a strengthening of covenant..with many..”rab.”

    Rab eliminates a national or ethnic treaty. It is generic. Jesus (the Messiah) strengthened the Covenant in the Upper Room. The generic wording allowed the Gentiles to be included into the promises. That’s why the text says “many” not “Jews”.

    -Seven Year Tribulation.
    Fabrication. Other text speak of a 42 month time of trouble. And it is repeated in multiple locations, and therefore of importance.

    ..Tribulation Temple.
    Who cares? There will always be a desire to reconstruct. Perhaps it will be rebuilt. But doesn’t matter.

    The Temple of God is in Heaven. The Temple is altered, because we, you, me, us, are now included. When seated, in Heaven, we are the..living stones..a temple not built with hands. John witnessed us seated, in our 24 divisions, as the temple of God in Rev 4.

    The Seventy Weeks can be zeroed out by two ways. Read the text and remember it, and removed inserted items not found in the text.

  73. Dread says:

    Priddis

    Before I make a 5th grade reader assessment — flesh that out or cite a source. It is fairly dubious that you have alone unlocked the secret. And your post is muddy.

    4th Grade Dread

  74. Nathan Priddis says:

    Muff.
    Chuck, Missler and Lindsey obviously put forward the same Pre-Mill Eschatological position descended from1827-1860’s Darby.

    Missler was an Academy graduate…Naval? I think. He had some level of physics and mentioned physics terms at some sermons. He constantly used a phrase…” “outside our time domain.” Separately, he mentioned at least once..a digital Universe. (I wish I could claim that invention. No idea if he coined it, or borrowed it)
    I’m unsure what, if any practicle effect, those concepts had on a linear view of Eschatological events.

    Missler did understand Specific Relativity. There where YT postings that brought it up. He knew about the quantization of reality, even if I can’t recall a mention of the Planck Constant by name.

    Here is my understanding of time:

    1. A bifurcation of reality with a plural Heaven, and a lower Cosmos/ Universe called Earth, necessitates a bifurcation of time.
    2. Time is an automatic bi- product of the mechanics involved in creating and maintaining our lower World. It appears along with mass and gravity. I’m looking for a graviton to be discovered. It emerges by itself as a tangible force, because the firmament is itself a tangible component that holds our Universe.
    3. Once inside our Universe, time is perceived as Relative to the observer.
    4. Crossing the Firmament would produce bizarre perception of time. Bizarre to a relatively stationary person in our World.

    Examples:
    -John was on Patmos in the first century. Suddenly he was caught up to the Upper World. He also crossed 2000..and counting years. The Lord’s day is not Sunday. It hasn’t happened yet, at least to us.

    -Daniel 10 has an angel speaking with Daniel. He apprerently feels the need to explain his delay of 21 days in reaching Daniel. On his return, the Prince of Greece will come. But the Prince is a couple of centuries in the future, to us. He is not coming here. These Princes live in another World not connected to our Universe.

    These ideas can begin to feel less confusing when the progress of Physics is accepted.

  75. Nathan Priddis says:

    Opps..typo. I’m NOT looking for a graviton to be discovered.

  76. Nathan Priddis says:

    Ok BD.
    I’ll pick the simplest thing that comes to mind. I won’t cite, but I’ll paraphrase. This should be even further back then grade school. This is very early childhood. At some point, a child may notice glass can produce a rainbow like effect. Light contains colors that become visible after exiting the glass at a slightly angled direction. The direction is a tough one. You might need to observe bending light in the bathtub or a pond to see it better.

    Later, after being taught to read, you learn that Newton described his 1670’s experiment in a 1704 book. Optics.
    To grossly paraphrase Newton..light contains stuff.
    -Earlier notions of light are not true.
    -Light follows mathematical rules.
    -And light contains stuff.

    These concepts are about as fundamental as it gets to later physics and also attempting to grasp concepts of our reality.
    No fundamentals…no later grasping..of concepts..of the reality of our World.

    If our Scriptures make statements that are detached from reality. The reality of our World-
    If there is no underlying factual basis for them-
    Then our religion, yes I said religion, is not true. It does not pertain to actual life. It is a waste of time.

    Now, let’s go to the Scriptures and pick something very fundamental in the text..

    Genesis 1:3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    The story says some guy called God wants to create stuff, so the first thing he did was call for light. So we now we know that when God wanted stuff, he made stuff, out of light, because light contains stuff. The stuff follows mathematically described rules. And sometimes, previously held ideas, turn out to be obsolete.

    Now at this point, let’s summarize.
    We covered one verse textualy.
    We’ve made it to 1704 historically.
    We learned that geometry is going to be required in later grades.
    God still hasn’t actualy made anything.
    And we are not finished with the first day..especially since days are not invented yet.
    And people are going to get really mad theologically.

    All this from a window, crystalline piece of glass, some light reading and and one Bible verse.

  77. Dread says:

    Priddis

    Keep bending

    I’ll move on

  78. Dread says:

    Concerning the above

    It appears Nathan may have some of the obvious worked out correctly.

    There is no antichrist in Daniel’s 70 weeks. There is only Christ who confirms the covenant.

    I would argue there is also no 3 1/2 weeks ahead that was the Jewish wars and we know enough of it to surmise that it is all past not future.

    My interest was in getting folk to define what they mean by kingdom — which I asserted long ago is the reign of God “in the Spirit” not geopolitically.

    We probably agree more than disagree about Daniel’s weeks.

    But the insertion of time via our modern understandings of science is …meh

    Don’t do that. It’s not exegesis.

  79. Josh says:

    Priddis studied physics in 5th grade? This dude some kind of Doogie Howser? 🙂

    The problem when you start going through the timeline, point-by-point, is that is really the Pre-mIllinialist’s world. They are good at that. They have a world class seminary dedicated to that. I am not convinced that any of the systems have a strong grasp on what is going to happen, but we can’t pretend the Pre-mil guys have just missed some little point, and now we’ve found it, and that unravels the whole thing.

    But conversations of Kingdom, I am interested in that.

  80. Dread says:

    Here’s what’s GOING to happen. Gospel ingathering, his return, judgment, the restoration of all things, new creation.

    The repetitive manifestation of antichrists will go on along with kingdoms rising and falling.

  81. Nathan Priddis says:

    “..Priddis studied physics in 5th grade? This dude some kind of Doogie Howser? 🙂..”..

    God forbid. I was the village idiot.

    But the Lord moves in mysterious ways. My grades where altered in one school..to passing. They didn’t want me back. Maybe not turning in homework or a year was part of it.

    Pre-Mil good at going through details? I don’t think do at all.

    Can’t pretend Pre-Mill guys missed one little detail? What? That’s a gigantic screw up. I repeat..Darby’s screwup was a lack of child-level comprehension. And, weird for a brilliant man whose occupation was Solicitor for the Crown..or some such thing.
    The details is where it breaks down. The overview itself looks plausible. Pre-Mil claims to be literal, but has to resort to allegory, like everybody else. Example..Revelation 12.

    A theory should be beautiful, whether it be Physics or doctrine. A Pre-Mil chart is all over the place.

    Here is something I can’t grasp:
    -A person believes in the Kingdom.
    -Presumes they will experience it either in this life or post – life.
    -Believes it will effect this World in some fashion.
    However…is not interested in either the mechanics of this World, nor details of what the constitutes the Kingdom.

    It’s as though though is segregated into religious thought, and temporal thought. So one never challenges or effects the other. I don’t see them as separate. We have one brain, and thought is thought.

  82. Josh says:

    None of the legit pre-mil scholars reference Darby, except to point out his mistakes.

  83. Josh says:

    Ground zero for modern pre-mil is Chafer, and much of what is happening in pre-mil now has moved on from Chafer. If you are reading Blaising and Bock, you really aren’t interacting with modern pre-mil.

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