Things I Think…
1. I think the denominational church as we have known it is a relic of what it once was and will slowly fade into irrelevance…one could draw an analogy between the big department stores that were institutions for most of my life (Sears, Montgomery Wards, J.C. Penney) and the major denominations today…such as the Southern Baptist Convention, The United Methodists, the Episcopal Church, etc…they were once large and powerful…today…they’re either already gone or soon to be…
2. While there may be sociological and cultural reasons behind this decline, I would posit that the main reason is that God has left the building…He has “removed their lampstands”…
3. It is a huge mystery to me that in all my years in Christian ministry, that I have never heard a sermon where the warnings to the seven churches of Revelation were used to audit the churches they were preached in…they have always been directed at another sect that didn’t hold to some doctrinal distinction…it would seem to me that those warnings would be reviewed often by a church internally with fear and trembling…
4. Pick a denomination…and you will find it laced with abuse issues, scandals, and ungodly behaviors from its leadership…with no resolve to address them…because that would result in a loss of power, position, and profit for some…God has been patient, but I believe His patience is at an end…
5. I am no longer interested in trying to bring reform to these organizations…nor are they interested in reformation…to hell with them…each generation of corrupt leaders trains the upcoming generations in the ways of corruption and the unbiblical and ungodly ways are perpetuated…they wouldn’t notice that Jesus has left the building…or perhaps even care that He has…
6. What is needed now is a finding and strengthening of the remnant…which is large and faithful, but often “unchurched” and under constant stress…while supporting those churches and pastors where the lampstand is still present…
7. Some of you have been with me for the bulk of my 22 years online…and I have “known ” you to be faithful and caring and full of the Holy Spirit…despite not being involved in a local church…and it’s my hearts desire to see such people be able to connect and strengthen each other as many of you have strengthened me over the years…
8. The Scriptures tell us that the devil is the “father of lies” and deception one of his most powerful weapons…yet we live in a time where deception is the currency of the realm without acknowledging the powers behind the lies. The internet, AI, and all the other technology we have developed have set the stage for unprecedented levels of deception and all that is standing in gap is the Holy Spirit in the people of God…and they are torn by political and cultural divisions that leave us impotent. The time for the remnant to stand has come…
9. The church has lost a lot of pastors over the last three years…men and women who were called by God, but not called to officiate disputes over politics and virus mitigation…we need to affirm their calling…not necessarily to return to what they righteously left but to the care of the people of God…we’re meeting outside the camp…
10. The fields are ripe for harvest…we have grown accustomed to the tent cities and the people dropping dead on the streets from overdoses…to the divorces and confusion and the cruelty and lack of love…we need Jesus…we need him in our homes and in our vocations and we need to be a witness against the darkness…the old ways have failed and we need to pray for newness that we are all safe to participate in…in Jesus name…amen…
I recall someone said something about new wine and old wineskins…
praying for new wine & containers fit to hold it.
fil,
I’ll say the amen…I think that wine is flowing…and you are one of the containers…just sayin’…
Thank you for the Thoughts……and we all should say “A-men”~!
Thank you, Carolyne…I’m not sure we’re going to get a lot of amens on this one…
It’s informative, regarding the 7 churches, that the one struggling in poverty, was in fact rich in the sight of the Lord, while the church that perceived itself rich, was in fact poor in the sight of the Lord. There is an application (s) there for sure.
What I like about this week’s Things is that, whether or not one would sign on the dotted line with everything written, I give great respect that Michael employs Scripture to interpret the condition of God’s people. Anything that directs Christians to the Word of God for understanding their condition and the world is a good thing IMO.
Thank you, Jean.
Your application is especially interesting when we consider that much of the American church grades itself numerically and financially…no matter if they are creating true disciples or not…
I agree that it is a matter of ‘lampstands being removed.’ That being said, The Apostle’s Creed says ‘I believe in the Holy Catholic Church.’ The Church is an article of faith, and we walk by faith and not by sight.
Patrick,
I believe in the Holy Catholic Church…I just don’t believe that every place that says they are part of that church is…
Since retiring from full time ministry, I haven’t regularly attended church. I felt bad but, while this may sound arrogant, I’ve heard 10k sermons and they all kind of run together after a while.
I’ve learned to feed myself so, I don’t really need another sermon
I am still serving in the role of pastor. Just returned from the hospital visiting a young girl with stage 4 cancer
I have a desire to serve but not in the standard church setting.
I prepare a message every week…and I get excited about it every week because I always learn something I didn’t know before that I get to share with the folks.
It can get be drudgery if you always drink from the same well…but once you open up to water from other wells it stays exciting.
We have a small group so it’s interactive… I can’t imagine just giving a lecture every week…
I am very fortunate to be in a church where everyone serves each other …which is how it’s supposed to work, in my opinion…
At some point I also want to address the issue of vocation…Trey’s mom works for the VA as a specialty nurse…and it’s one of the best “ministries” I’ve ever seen…
Officerhoppy,
I know a lot of retired, semi-retired, can’t wait to get the hell out, pastors…my hope is to somehow connect them to do the real work of ministry without the trappings and barriers of what ‘church” has become…
Michael
That, my friend is a good goal. I’d like to help in that endeavor.
Officerhoppy,
I’m just in the early stages…we have so many experienced people thinking they’re done…I don’t accept that.
Sobering thoughts, Michael. I’ll add another Amen.
Hoppy equated going to church with hearing a sermon. That’s problematic and informative as to his absence. Which was plainly stated as instrumental.
#3 I whole heartedly agree. I frankly got sick and tired of hearing the same messages on the seven churches. In Calvary Chapel they all followed the assumption that they were the church of Philadelphia. It only takes a slightly deeper look to see that any of the messages to the other six churches applied to them as well. Sometimes moreso. Please don’t get me started on the other way I heard those letters taught and preached. The allegorical interpretation that each church represented a church age. Rubbish to say the least.
#9 While not exactly proud of it you can count me as one of them but not for the reasons stated. Depending on the day I am asked, which is never, I may give a different reason but in reality it is just a huge convoluted mess. But even at that ministry takes place in many other ways like offering to lift a heavy bag for someone while I am still able, or saying a kind word, or putting meaningful lyrics to music, or just loving those that I am close to everyday. I keep trying to find my place in the digital world but I have not found my place. Maybe there is still a place for me somewhere but as of right now I am stuck in flux as a wandering stranger in a strange strange land.
On a personal note if anyone who sees this post could say a prayer for us as we are navigating very challenging and murky waters these days. I am particularly spent in so many ways and could use a refreshing. Thanks in advance.
BTW- Michael this collection of thoughts provided some refreshing. Keep on brother!
Going to church to hear the sermon…..
I have a friend who used to attend a large church where a former participant of this blog pastors and he would bring his iPad and read during the sermon.
There is a family that used to attend our church, but they started watching a church service on line and that is how they currently spend most of their Sunday mornings, or so they say. We see them at Easter and Christmas. They do not participate in the sacramental life of the church that can only be experienced, IMO, through regular attendance. They miss out on regularly partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, nor do they experience communal prayer of the Psalms or reciting the Apostle’s Creed. They miss out on specific moves of the Holy Spirit that take place in a church setting. And they short circuit their sense of stability through what Benedict understood as a commitment to a particular group of people. Essentially, they go it alone without the grace of a hermetic calling upon their lives.
That’s it pstrmike
“I know a lot of retired, semi-retired, can’t wait to get the hell out, pastors…my hope is to somehow connect them to do the real work of ministry without the trappings and barriers of what ‘church” has become…”
My ears are perked.
I will only say that in the six churches I regularly attended and sought to set down roots as an adult, the average service lasted one hour, fifteen minutes. The sermon averaged forty-five. Communion rarely was a part of the morning/main service–relegated to evening or home groups. Worship typically was 20-25 minutes and advertisements/announcements took up a chunk. These were evangelical churches, so mileage will vary. In my experience, preaching & the senior pastor’s message were the stars of the show. The worship leader/team were a close second–and perhaps critiqued more than the sermon.
I appreciate Pstrmike’s comment, but haven’t found that balance in my various forays into churchdom.
1. The Mere Orthodoxy article I shared with you agrees.
3. I’ve heard the letters used as a picture of the Church throughout history, always culminating with the modern/end times church being Laodicea. (but with an “of course our church isn’t like that”)
9. I was thinking of all the old saints we’ve actually lost within the past number of months. One who stands out was George Verwer. He managed to do the most to reach the lost and serve outcasts while drawing zero attention to himself. It’s as if all these men of God are being retired at this time intentionally.
Shawn,
What I know about you is that since you started commenting here you’ve been one of the most articulated thoughtful posters we have. I am going to assume that translates well into your “real” life and ministry.
Whatever the cause of your departure was, I still see you as someone called…
As to mundane actions as ministry…I don’t think we can overstate the importance of small acts of kindness and affirmation in this angry time. In my current condition, they have been life giving to me.
You are in my prayers…
fil,
I have the concern for balance such as you mentioned, particularly as my wife and I consider what our church life will look like when I am no longer pastoring at a church. I’m also in that “can’t wait to get the hell out” category, but I am giving myself time here to attempt to end well. I am transitioning to doing counseling and spiritual direction. We will be looking for a church in the next town over (attending a church in the same town I pastored does not make sense to me), and so far the prospects are not attractive to me. Maintaining a church life outside the camp is calling, and I trust it is not a Siren’s song.
pstrmike,
As you know, my gathering has been online for the last three years because of my health concerns and the state of my mother.
It works well for the most part…we have a number of dedicated introverts, including the pastor.
Your concerns about the sacraments are valid…we take communion every week, but at times I worry about how efficacious it is…there is more than a bit of traditional Anglican in me.
Our group is deeply committed to each other…they even maintain relationships with those who no longer consider themselves a part of the church. Our members in other states have been visited by members here and have been blessed for the effort.
I think part of that is due to the small size of the group and the fact that we share prayer requests openly every week…you get tied to people you pray for.
Josh,
While I grieve at all you’ve been through, I think you will develop from it a depth that only pain can dig.
We need you…and all the others here.
I do not know yet how all this will work…being on painkillers 24/7 has seriously reduced my mental faculties.
I worry that what I have perceived as messages from God are just the perceptions of an old man on dope.
I’m convinced though, that the true Gospel is moving outside the camp to those who want to hear it…
fil,
You have always had a keen eye and a large heart…what should we be doing from your perspective?
Terry,
A lot of the old guard is aging out and I’m next…I am wondering if there is both judgment and opportunity in God taking so many home…
I few years ago I was talking to a friend who was pastoring one of the largest churches in this area. We were talking about communion and he was telling me how difficult it was logistically to do so with the vast amount of people. He further hampered his efforts by insisting that he teach on communion every time they partook. I wondered if size was really the issue, perhaps he had not taught the church in such a way that they would have a decent understanding of communion that regular participation might bring.
Would it be appropriate to say that much of this thread is simultaneously sad and encouraging?
CK,
Indeed…in reality, the situation os much grimmer than I have written.
On the other hand, I really believe that we have a microcosm here that shows there are still people with a heart for Jesus and a desire to minister to the remnant.
pstrmike,
Many of those churches have no sacramental doctrine beyond “we’re not Catholic”…
Michael,
No, they don’t. What they don’t understand is that even within the context of a purely Memorial view of communion, it is by definition, Sacramental.
Hi Michael,
I have read your blog for 15 years. First time commenting. This entire post is so insightful. So on point. Bad systems are perpetuated from one generation to the next. When I became a believer about 24 years ago I wouldn’t have imagined such a thing. Now I know better.
longtimereader,
Thank you for staying with us that long…I hope it’s been a blessing at times.
You spoke to something I think is critical…abuse and corruption are now a feature, not a bug…it’s built in and passed down…
I kind of feel like I need to defend my comment about going to church to listen to a sermon. Initially, I went to church to worship god with other believers. But the corporate worship songs sung in church today aren’t Christ centered or god oriented. They are “me” focused.
Secondly, I went to church to serve god and people. I taught, prayed, discipled, cleaned toilets and mopped floors, planned events, and a bunch of other things because I wanted to help
Thirdly, most people choose a church because they like the pastor’s teaching. the sermon is the focus of most Sunday morning church services
I don’t need to hear another sermon. I’ve heard them all.
I am looking for a venue to serve. It’s been difficult because having been retired for a while, I’ve gotten lazy
My biggest issue is my health. Like Michael, I live 24/7 with constant intense pain. Walking to the mailbox hurts. Bending over to tie my shoe is painful. I have to sit. Can’t stand
I read my Bible, fellowship and learn and give out at three small groups.
So, I am involved (sort of) but not to the degree I did when I was younger or when I pastored.
Officerhoppy,
Pain and pain control have greatly minimized me…I hear you.
I’m not much concerned with how many people I reach anymore…I’m very concerned about what I bring to those I do reach.
I want to acknowledge as many people as I can…let them know they are seen and loved by God.
I want to exalt Jesus…meaning that everything I do and say is pointing to Him.
I want people to have the freedom to question and to speak out loud their doubts and fears.
I want to be someone who is not only teaching spiritual disciplines, but living them.
I want to convey my genuine excitement when I’m taught or learn something new in the Scriptures I’ve never seen before.
I want to grow in my own discipleship and facilitate others…not as their superior, but as a fellow believer…
Hoppy
Pain makes sense. That’s a real issue. I’d boundary my life by pain also.
However you clearly haven’t heard “them all” the discussions you engage here show me that you’ve heard the Smith-washed brand and that’s pretty predictable indeed and would long ago have bored me into absence if that’s all there is.
Banal, shallow and almost rote including that seven churches nonsense we hear from CCed mouths. But you’d thrive in churches that were as Christocentric as the worship you crave. Both are out there but not abundantly I fear.
Alan,
Well said…and I’m glad you said it…
Alan
I’m a little confused at your comment
I wasn’t the typical CC pastor
Even though I was a CC pastor, I wasn’t a “Smithite”. Heard him speak at the two pastors conferences I attended but I stopped attending them (Mike Golden can confirm that).
Was I shaped by CC theology? Probably but I didn’t necessarily subscribe to his homiletical mantra of “simply teaching the Bible simply”. That idea makes for very shallow Christian’s IMO
Most CC guys listen to each other. I know that because they all tell the same jokes and use the same illustrations.
Know the Lord, trust the Lord.
Know the word, trust the word.
Know a Christian, ……………….?
Anything goes, I guess.
We’ll all be together with Him, because of Him.
Obviously not because of us.
Happy to hear from you folks.
At least we have that.
I’m wondering if verse by verse preaching leads us into being way off-balance.
I’m big on Bible reading…I’m bigger on reading it along with people who can give me insights into the text.
I thrive on variety…I’ve gleaned from pstrmike and from Alan… stole his Hebrews study for myself…I love N.T. Wright and Rowan Williams and a host of men who wrote commentaries…if I were a rich man I’d send everyone here a copy of Tremper Longman’s commentaries on Daniel and Revelation…there are five or six different traditions on my night stand and Audible and Kindle books…and they keep me excited about Scripture…
“I’m wondering if verse by verse preaching leads us into being way off-balance.”
It can…because it divorces a text from the whole of the narrative…
Right – plus it treats every verse as basically equal.
The important parts are about Jesus. Some passages, say Ecclesiastes, are WAY less important. But subscribing to Book by book, verse by verse, means we are going to spend a lot of time away from the passages specifically about Jesus.
Josh,
That’s a controversial opinion…one that I have recently come to myself.
I would rather go through a study on one of the Gospels again, than a painstaking tour through Leviticus or Job.
Exactly. Its against my education, but theoretically, it makes perfect sense to me.
Josh,
It’s against mine as well…but especially with the advanced age of my congregation and my own age, I only want to focus on Jesus…
I would say that every book, every verse, every word of the Bible is equal in the sense believing that they are all inspired by God. However, I would say some books, some sections, some verses of the Bible carry greater importance than others.
There is a reason why a verse like John 3:16 is known and quoted far more than passages of defunct levitical law or genealogies in I Chronicles.
Hmmm. I have never considered myself a “verse by verse” teacher. Ecclesiastes is a gem, but most can’t get past the earthly/human perspective. A few wanted to run to the end of the book, not dealing with the text in front of them. I took a year to teach it on my mid week and brings among other things, some incredible insight into the human condition and the Incarnation.
interesting comments…..
My question is, ‘how close to the end of this are we?
duuno, truly don’t
Verse by verse, vs. lectionary, vs. topical, vs. something else, when it comes to the worship service, is an indication of what the church thinks the sermon is for, in fact what the service is for.
Is it a Bible study lecture?
Is it the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Is it to engender repentance and faith?
Is it to experience the first fruits of the reign of God in Christ?
Is it to impart morality? Etc.
In other words, what is the agenda of the church? Why are they meeting? Why would someone go there?
As one ponders that question, one might ask: What is distinctive about a Christian church service? How is God glorified in the service?How do souls enter God’s rest in the service?
I think Josh was absolutely correct when he said some parts of Scripture are more important than others. And a good preacher will connect all of Scripture with the only Redeemer sinful humanity will ever have. Jesus should be the Alpha and Omega of every Sunday service in a Christian church IMO.
There is a short book that talks about some of what you have address in leadership The Tale of Three Kings (Saul, David and Absalom). My wife and I found it helpful when we dealt with abusive leadership in the church.
Book review:
https://emj.redcliffe.ac.uk/reviews/a-tale-of-three-kings-a-study-in-brokenness-book-review/#:~:text=A%20tale%20of%20three%20kings%20by%20G.,questions%20about%20our%20own%20leadership.
PDF Copy online:
https://library.melbac.org/books/vision/A%20Tale%20of%20Three%20Kings.pdf
Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Tale-three-Kings-Study-Brokenness/dp/0842369082/ref=sr_1_1?crid=26BRRHTHD3QR6&keywords=tale+of+three+kings+book&qid=1688692436&s=amazon-devices&sprefix=tale+of+three%2Camazon-devices%2C224&sr=1-1
Amen. I am postmillenial so I think we have thousands of years to go, and that God is crushing the church in order to remake it. Not in my lifetime, but someday.
Vs by vs teaching may be misleading. It’s not suppose to be one verse studied at the expense of context.
Ideally, vs by vs teaching should be presenting the word of God in a uniquely in-depth style, teach the full meaning of the text without losing the big picture. Verse-by-verse teaching is suppose to mean the teacher doesn’t jump from passage to passage without connecting the dots. Instead, he uncovers the full meaning of the text – including rejecting traditional interpretations when necessary when the text of scripture doesn’t support them.
When the resurrected Christ revealed Himself to the men on the Emmaus road, He did so beginning with Moses and with all the Scriptures (cf Luke 24:27);
Once the New Testament canon was recognized, church history reveals that verse-by-verse exposition was the primary method by which the Scriptures were taught by the stalwarts of the church from all generations and regions. Such was the primary method by which the flock of God was fed. I like that kind of teaching.
Granted, some do a great job of it while many other both trained and untrained teachers do a piss poor job of taking in the context upon which a passage is contained.
“Once the New Testament canon was recognized…”
It is striking to me (an outsider) to think of all the people who lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus.
How many Christians had Bibles to read up until about 200 (?) years ago?
I write this not to diminish the gift of scripture, but rather to ponder what it says about how Christ works in the world.
“he is not far from any one of us.”
“For in him we live and move and have our being.”
“Once the New Testament canon was recognized, church history reveals that verse-by-verse exposition was the primary method by which the Scriptures were taught by the stalwarts of the church from all generations and regions. ”
I think that’s a stretch.
How so?
JoelG,
That’s something we all need to reflect on…and I like your choices of Scripture there…
The primary method of biblical interpretation for the first few centuries was allegorical…and some doctrines the church now considers primary weren’t developed for centuries .
We do find some verse by verse exposition around the 4th century…Chrysostom, etc…it mainly was brought into vogue by the Reformers in the Western church…
Just checked some references …outside of a very few such as Chrysostom, expository preaching was very sparse until the pre-Reformers and The Reformation.
That doesn’t diminish its value, but sets the historical context straight.
To add to what Michael wrote, the use of a church lectionary dates back to the 5th Century, and I understand had its roots in the way the 2nd Temple Jews used the Scriptures. A lectionary is an organization of Scriptures for reading in the church by particular days of the church calendar. In other words, the Scripture readings correstpond to the church calendar, which includes, for example, Lent, Easter, Pentecost, etc. Lectionaries are still in use today by several traditions.
Chapter and verse were only introduced in the mid-16th century. To speak of verse by verse expository preaching is to engage in an historical anachronism. Previous to the 16th century, preaching was based upon the lectionary being used by a particular local church and by the narrative of the whole of Scripture. This included allegorical interpretation as it linked the New Testament stories to those of the Old Testament.
It’s hard to do verse by verse when the verses are not there…
Thank you, Duane and Jean…
Hoppy gave a good nudge quoting Lk 24 where Jesus preached Jesus in all of the scriptures…all being the old covenant text.
Just preach Jesus, often and everywhere.
“it would seem to me that those warnings would be reviewed often by a church internally with fear and trembling”
That’s how I view it, for myself and the church I serve at….
Another way of looking at all of this is
WHO IS DOING EVANGELISM?
If you’re so concerned about Trumpsters or the Gheys, when’s the last time you, plainly and clearly, communicated the essential Gospel to them?
It’s woefully short in terms of numbers…
JTK,
Most of them think they are already in possession of the Gospel…I’ve been told that I have the “gospel of defeat”…they don’t understand that Jesus did as well…