Things I Think…
1.LGBTQ issues along with clergy sex scandals were given as factors as well.
There is a lot of info in this survey to parse and I commend it to your reading…there is a similar report out from Gallup….
2. A majority of Americans do not attend church services and the number of people saying religion is important to them is in steep decline…when I hear people demanding some sort of theocratic government,the numbers show that isn’t ever going to happen in a democratic process…which opens the possibility of those folks choosing other processes to achieve power…
3. As I parse the data it seems that LGBTQ issues are on the forefront of reasons people leave the church. I don’t think the church should change it’s traditional views on these issues…but taking another tactic would be advisable…maybe using the ways Jesus did for the purpose He did…seeking and saving the lost…
4. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s ambivalence…and that’s what i see in this data. It’s not that people hate Jesus, it’s that they just don’t care about the church anymore…we’re becoming irrelevant…
5. In my opinion the worst thing that we can take from this data is the notion that we are being minimized and persecuted by the enemies of the faith…and instead look for ways to bring the gospel to people as the Good News that it is…and take the perverts and grifters out of our pulpits and politics with them…
6. I think the possibility exists that It’s not heathens that are behind the loss of faith in the this country, but that God is in the process of taking things down to the foundation…either to build something truer and better or for His return…
7. Do I have any solutions for all this bad news? None that are very popular. I think the biblical witness says that we will have the greatest effect simply by living Christian lives among our neighbors and and loving them as we love each other and Christ…the obvious problem with that is that we don’t love each other and consider others our enemies…instead of looking for revival or renewal in the culture, we need to pray it come to us first…
8. The eclipse will be over by the time I print this…and nothing will have happened other than it got dark for a couple of minutes…but the prophecy wonks will still look for the next thing to lie about…
9. 14 years ago when I spoke to J.I. Packer, all he wanted to talk about was catechizing the church…teaching the truths about the faith. J.I. Packer was right…the whack jobs and nut cases are simply putting out the garbage they have taken in…
10. If Jesus does come back this afternoon, Prince Liam the Cat and I will be gone,but someone needs to check on Fat Patrick the Angry Tom across the street…that cat hath not the Spirit…
Well I think you nailed why the irrelevance happens in thought 5. The church is just another filthy corrupt system.
The church is too busy burning itself down to cry persecution from anyone else.
Walking on egg shells when I say this, but I have said it before, I will say it again, let it burn. Like cancel culture, they are cancelling themselves out. Let it all burn. The greatest segment of the “remnant” is also going to be self made by a ton of “righteous folk” applying blessed subtraction. Let them do it. Empty churches can’t keep the doors open, the buildings are better suited to be retail space.
8, I am kinda bummed aliens didn’t land…
Reuben,
I think the next few years will open up a lot of space for something…the old guard is dying out fast and the replacements are weak…
A real apostasy. And it is rooted inside the “knowledge of good and evil”. Where does such knowledge originate? The data reveals that for humanity that knowledge resides within the right of humans to decide and within the pain of the human heart.
As for what God might be doing; your hopeful side says rebuilding. My pessimism says that what happened in the Middle East and later Europe is happening in America. Namely, culture simply jettisoning a belief system that both oppressed and failed to regenerate humanity. That is my worst pessimism. My most troubling thoughts are that we simply don’t actually have a regenerate church.
I may be returning to a form of remnant theology that vexed my youth. But the evidence we are seeing in the last 40 year is that this thing we call salvation — doesn’t work. At least it doesn’t work the works of God.
Now I think better but I throw out the darkest thoughts.
“My most troubling thoughts are that we simply don’t actually have a regenerate church.”
You’ve been listening to my private conversations… 🙂
Though I no longer have much truck with the Reformed,I do believe in the ultimate sovereignty of God and His promises for the church.
Remnant theology scares me because it creates damnable pride…but I think the concept is true and we’re in the midst of a major reckoning.
I did just sit through a very platonized eschatological expression of the Gospel. Namely, salvation means going to heaven. Jesus is the ticket and the only reason we are here it to sell tickets. I don’t preach that or hear it much these days because of my choices but it is alive and well. We can be jolly in the face of death because well our friend is outta here. We have to join him.
Wright says we have:
1) Platonized our Eschatology
2) Moralized our Anthropology
3) Paganized our Soteriology
So clever it must be true
Multiple Identity Dread
I wish I had a clear picture of what the remnant looks like. I suspect there would be a lot of pride too, but maybe it actually looks like a remnant of humility.
“this thing we call salvation — doesn’t work. At least it doesn’t work the works of God.”
I overheard a church leader speaking of someone at their Easter walk through. Said she got saved. It sounded so weird now. What does that even mean? What were really talking about?
I think Alan is onto something here.
My guess is that the remnant looks like something we would never expect. Seems to always be the way God works.
Alan is usually on to something…if you’ve never heard his teaching through Hebrews, you’ve never heard Hebrews taught.
Probably right, Josh. No point in trying to square it away before it even forms. Maybe it already exists.
Ok, I did a pretty mean teaching though Hebrews, so my ears are perked…
but not ready to get back in that mindset yet 🙂
Josh,
I’ve stolen enough of it to look like a scholar… 🙂
You may actually find it very helpful…I did.
Where can I get Dread’s teaching on Hebrews? Website, please.
“this thing we call salvation — doesn’t work. At least it doesn’t work the works of God.”
This is what I kept saying to myself over and over the last month of my CC sojourn. “This doesn’t work.”
Dread,
“We can be jolly in the face of death because well our friend is outta here. We have to join him.”
I hate that teaching…there is some truth to it, but demanding it from mourners is cruel…
Bob,
https://www.youtube.com/@NewLifeCity/search?query=hebrews
Josh, Reuben,
If you want to know what the remnant looks like…look in the mirror.
You’ve been through hell, you’re rejecting the dross, and you’re still here.
You’re the future…even though you can’t see it yet.
Michael – Thank you!
Dread wrote @ 12:48 pm:
“I did just sit through a very platonized eschatological expression of the Gospel. Namely, salvation means going to heaven.”
I have no desire to go to ‘christian heaven’, I love my earthly flesh and blood existence too much. The Jewish concept of ‘Olam-Ha-Ba’ (afterlife) where the best of earthly life is continued and enhanced makes way more sense to me.
On a much more serious note than what is being discussed here, it would seem Michael believes he owns the cat section of the Lamb’s Book of Life. Who made you judge and jury that you can decide the salvation of Fat Patrick? 😛
By their fruit, you will know them….Fat Patrick attacks my cats and always stops to pee on my tires when I chastise him…obviously, a heathen 🙂
If that’s a “thus saith the Lord” up there Michael, I just laughed nervously.
Reuben,
I won’t claim divine inspiration on that…but I have always believed in you and have no inclination to stop now.
We’ll see where the road leads…
Reuben,
He’s correct. I have a friend who says, “Some say don’t rock the boat. I say, let’s turn it over and see who will float.”
It is not those who fall … “the righteous falls and rises seven times… “
This “remnant” has quite a bit of anti-theism left in the blood. I still think there is tremendous truth to be found in Hitchens’ conclusions regarding the history of religion. I have no faith in it.
Reuben,
It is a long journey you’re on and yes, there have been atrocities done in the name of Jesus.
However, you’re starting to know the real Jesus…and it’s Him that you’ll someday proclaim…even if just in your own circle.
When things get more settled we’ll have some conversations…if you choose to.
Always! I look forward to it!
Reuben,
As do I…
Reuben,
“I wish I had a clear picture of what the remnant looks like. I suspect there would be a lot of pride too, but maybe it actually looks like a remnant of humility.”
Perhaps the remnant is not readily identifiable, but there are markers……..
all I want for those I love and myself is to be found in Him……….
Maybe that’s all there is to it. We preach Christ and Him crucified…
Even at that, it sounds weird. I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Christ… So what then? Maybe I am thinking about it too much haha! For today, I need to clean some floors and take out some trash. That’s all I know.
“You’re the future…even though you can’t see it yet.”
Definitely can’t see it yet, but would certainly fit my criteria of being unexpected.
Being grouped with Rueben makes me feel good, either way.
I no longer give an alter call so to speak when I am asked to officiate a funeral. I did it twice because it was what was expected of me and what I learned in my training. I always found “they are ripe” ideology distasteful.
I have to say much of the discussion in this response section is stimulating (the remnant, what does salvation mean, what does heaven look like or even mean, plantonized eschatology, and so on). If I was feeling better I would engage.
Well get better soon!
Thanks Reuben,
I keep vacillating between wishing and praying that I will. All I know is there is something that is physiologically amiss inside me that the doctors cannot figure out.
Praying for you, Shawn.
CK,
Thank you, more than you know!