Things I Think

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105 Responses

  1. CrucifiED says:

    “Mark my words…the next revival will come from some variation of Anabaptist theology.”

    Interesting thoughts, can you expound on that a bit?

  2. Jean says:

    Now you’ve wet the appetite for your next church history post – Anabaptists. Can’t wait!

    #7, at least you didn’t send it out first and have to repent 3 times after the fact. Note to self 🙂

    #3, No one running (or aspiring to run) a multi-million dollar ministry will want to believe this.

    Thanks Michael for another list of great thoughts to start the week.

  3. papiaslogia says:

    “If you’re unable to fully grieve the deaths of children and innocents in Gaza because of your “biblical” support of Israel, you have utterly missed most of the content of the Bible.”

    I support Israel’s right to defend herself as a country, but that not because of the Biblical reason – its a simple matter of a country’s right to defense. If the cartels in Mexico started shooting rockets into Texas, NM, AZ, or CA… we’d be about 200 miles in by now.

    Find me someone who is happy about the deaths of innocents in Gaza, as I suspect they are common as Bigfoot.

  4. erunner says:

    “We have had a policy here from the beginning that no matter how much of a scoundrel we were speaking of, the family was to be left out of the discussion…period.”

    Back in the day Skip Heitzig’s wife Lenya posted here and she took some shots. Michael, if a family member of a person such as Skip was to drop by present day how would you control the dialogue or would you allow things to unfold in an unmoderated fashion?

    ” If you’re unable to fully grieve the deaths of children and innocents in Gaza because of your “biblical” support of Israel, you have utterly missed most of the content of the Bible.”

    I’m gonna borrow this quote. Have a great week Michael.

  5. erunner says:

    #6… What that man did should disqualify him from pastoral ministry. He should step down immediately and issue a public apology to the family. That boy was the son to a mother. He was a grandchild. He was possibly a sibling. He was a friend. He was not simply the son of a bad father. These are the things that make my hair stand on end. How can this man live with himself??

  6. Michael says:

    CrucifiED,

    The short version (because I’m on the run this morning) is that the sharp distinctions made by the later Anabaptists between church and state and the separation from the world to a distinct community of believers living on the margins of both institutional religion and politics will be the next movement here in America, in my opinion.

  7. Michael says:

    papiaslogia,

    I’ve read way too many articles and comments that treat dead children as collateral damage.
    The situation there is far more complex than simply Israel’s right to self defense.

  8. Michael says:

    erunner,

    Lenya is an adult and chose to engage.
    Family members who choose not to engage in social media, especially children, should be off limits.

  9. Neo says:

    Israel is not infallible. Evangelicals need to understand that. Just as God corrected Israel in the days of Isaiah and Habakkuk, He can do so still today. And yet, like the prophets of old, whoever speaks to that, in the truth of The Lord, very well might get ostracized and stoned.

  10. Neo says:

    #10. Include laughter in there as well. 🙂

  11. Perhaps that would be a greater sign that God still has a place for the people of Israel – to take them out of the land again.

  12. Michael says:

    Neo,

    Amen on both counts…

  13. Nonnie says:

    Erunner’s number 5. Thank you for saying that. I agree completely.

  14. Neo says:

    It’d been better if JD Hall had taken a millstone…

  15. papiaslogia says:

    Michael –

    What would you call the innocents that the terrorists place between themselves and their enemy(Israel)? The terrorists have even less respect for the innocents than anyone who would call them collateral damage.

    They are people made in God’s image that are being killed over the right for a country to exist. May sound simplistic but when we boil it down, that’s what we are left with.

    Anyone who thinks that whatever Israel does is OK – well, that is not right as well.

  16. Re Driscoll – and I am not defending anything about him… but are the masses really upset? They had the protest yesterday at Mars Hills Church and 65 people showed up – most being families. So what were there, 20 – 25 family units upset and willing to come out?

    I looked at the protest pictures – was Wenatchee there??

  17. Babylon's Dread says:

    I have a bit of confusion about the Ray Rice matter. It is a civil matter, a legal matter, and a personal matter. I do not see how it is a matter for the NFL to adjudicate policies and punishments. Taking drugs, violating policies that affect performance on the field makes sense to me. It does not make sense to me for the NFL to step into a role that is not intrinsically theirs.

    The NFL is not my family, not my church, not my government. NFL is a job. No one gets punished on their job for things unrelated to the job performance.

    I am willing to be informed on the matter. I really think implications of the NFL adjudicating matters without legal authority and without personal accountability opens a door that is a huge problem the precedent has all kinds of unintended consequences.

  18. BD makes sense on that one. The NFL is there for the game, not to ensure everyones personal life is above board. That is for courts.

  19. Jean says:

    Professional sports is certainly a game, but it’s also entertainment supported by advertising. The reputation and value of the NFL brand as well as the brands of the advertisers are impacted by the on and off field behavior of the athletes. Thus, there are typically morality clauses built into contracts. That’s the nexus to accountability for personal affairs.

  20. PP Vet says:

    I agree, the NFL is catering to trendy morality.

    When are they going to go after infidelity?

    That destroys families. Infidelity is just not a trendy target for moral indignation right now.

  21. Jean says:

    PP Vet, main reason: The industry is run by men.

  22. PP Vet says:

    I think you are right, unfaithful men in particular, perhaps.

    If she had to have one, would a woman prefer a punch or infidelity?

  23. Jean says:

    #22 I’m not touching that one.

  24. everstudy says:

    Re: “I do not see how it is a matter for the NFL to adjudicate policies and punishments.”

    The league will go after anything that may cost them money, that is their ‘matter’. So if a player does something not related to football, it doesn’t matter, the league must protect their interest (continual cash inflow) and they will act.

    Re: “When are they going to go after infidelity?”

    Once it costs the league some money they will.

  25. Jim says:

    Great TiT today.

    We found the witch…. 🙂

  26. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    MLD, no, I went to church.

  27. Neo says:

    Jim… Great TiT? Lol, sorry.

  28. London says:

    BD,
    “No one gets punished on their job for things unrelated to the job performance.”

    That’s not the case. Think about the man that slapped the little kid on the plane.
    Its more about whether you bring disgrace to your employer than actual job performance sometimes.

  29. Corbywan says:

    Just a thought-in-process regarding #9. Not a conclusion, mind you. “If you’re unable to fully grieve the deaths of children and innocents in Gaza because of your “biblical” support of Israel, you have utterly missed most of the content of the Bible.”

    My reasons for supporting Israel are Biblical, at least to me. I believe in God’s promise to them through Abraham for the land from the Med. to the Euphrates. I do, also, grieve for the innocents that are being put in harms way by Hammas and radical Islam. To say that Israel is killing those kids is like saying I’m killing all homeless people because I’m not feeding them all. It’s not that simplistic.

    Having said that, some might conclude that the alternative is to not support Israel, to only believe that Israel should pull out because innocents are being harmed. I do not think that’s the case. Innocents will always be killed in war. Some wars are worth fighting. I happen to believe that, from Israel’s perspective, it is worth fighting.

    Having said that, what came to mind when I first read this #9 statement were the episodes in scripture where God told His people to go in to the promised land and wipe out every man, woman, and child of the various pagan tribes. God told His people to kill what we would call in this context, innocents. That is very hard to swallow even apart from what is happening today. There are reasons for God doing what He did and because He is good I have to believe that what He commanded, in that context, we good. I’m sure it broke God’s own heart to give the order.

    Understand that I’m not making a one-to-one equivocation for what God told His people to do then to what Israel is doing now. That is NOT what I’m doing. What am I doing is bringing up some food for thought for those who, to my view, would (and have) oversimplify the situation to say that because kids are getting killed, regardless for the reasons, Israel should not be doing what they are doing.

    Again, thought-in-process.

  30. Dan from Georgia says:

    Item #4 is what the fanboys need to learn.

    Unrelated, I was thinking about where Jesus said that last shall be first, and the first last (or something like that), and it comforts me to know that the christian hotshots/superstars will probably occupy the end of the line.

  31. DavidM says:

    #9 “Fully” grieve? What does that mean? I am not able to “fully grieve” the deaths of those children and it has nothing at all to do with supporting or not supporting Israel. It is all about not having the emotional capital to grieve for children anywhere outside of my world. I am always deeply saddened when I hear of innocents being hurt, abused, threatened, neglected. But, let’s be realistic, if the expectation is to fully grieve for those, we could do nothing more each day but grieve.

    I suspect your comment, Michael, has more to do with the stubborn insistence of Christians in their support of all things Israel than the terrible loss of the children.

    I am always astounded at the Christians’ partiality toward Israel at the utter expense of compassion for the children of the Palestinians and Arabs. Without delving into theology, do we forget what Jesus said about our neighbor? Are we (Christians) really buying into the idea that the enemy of Israel is our enemy? You cannot really do that without politicizing your faith.

  32. Ms. Alnor says:

    #6 — I shared what you wrote on my facebook page with this intro:

    “When discernment turns ugly. The following report posted today by Michael Newnham reminds me of the time my late husband got a call from the son of a famous apologist with whom my husband had issues and had written a scathing article attacking this apologist’s hyped-up credentials. Soon after that article hit, this apologist died of a heart attack. My husband received an email the next day from the guy’s son who wrote one sentence: “He’s dead; are you happy now?” This is very timely considering yesterday’s letter I wrote to the scattered sheep.”

  33. Babylon's Dread says:

    No one has convinced me that the NFL needs to police this stuff when they leave so many things uncared for. If the law punishes Rice for what happened with his wife then the NFL can do whatever is congruent with it.

    If not…

    I just think it is public relations because they do not really get involved in these things. If this guy’s problems were not public nothing would come down from the NFL. If his wife appealed to them in private there would be silence from them.

  34. Ixtlan says:

    @29
    I think you oversimplified and gave the typical dispensational knee jerk. This is a very complex issue, yet Michael’s comment was confined to our sensitivities about grieving the loss of innocent life. Nothing more.

    Any nation has the right to retaliate against aggression. How they go about retaliation is another thing. But then again, I find it ironic that we tried Nazis for war crimes (and we were right to do so) and yet we never were accountable for nuking the hell out of two Japanese cities (which was wrong).

    In reading the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus did not give Israel a favored nation status but strongly condemned them for their unbelief. At the same time, Jesus acknowledged the believing Gentiles. I find this interesting since Matthew was written to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah, or as we Greeks say, the Christ. In short, not all Israel is Israel (Rom 9:6).

  35. Jean says:

    BD, the player’s union is powerful. If Rice or any other player doesn’t like it, they can lobby for a change in the collective bargaining agreement. It’s between the owners and the union, and they’re both plenty lawyered up.

  36. I don’t see using nuclear weapons on two cities to end a war as “bad” when it probably saved us and the Japanese losing so many more when we would have had to invade their mainland to end it otherwise.
    Aggressors take their chances when they attack first.
    This was true with Japan. This is true for Hamas.
    When we keep trying to end this early because people die in war, we just kick the ball down the road and ensure more will die at some point in the future.
    Does anyone on here really believe that if we get this war stopped to save lives now, that it won’t start up again a year from now with more lives lost?
    If you believe that then you haven’t been paying attention.
    Hamas is like the person who keeps picking at a scab.

  37. Jean says:

    The winner in war always gets to write the history. How do you think they write about themselves?

  38. Michael says:

    My minimal research on the matter reveals that the Palestinian people have legitimate reasons to be angry with Israel.
    This is not to say that Hamas is a worthy representative of these people or that they even care about these matters.
    We have created a new generation of suicide bombers and extremist ideologues because we in the West will use superior force (usually from a distance) to solve matters that can only be solved long term through negotiation or the complete destruction of an enemy.
    Evangelicals in this country choose one side of almost every issue and become willfully blind to the whole picture…always in the name of Jesus.
    I’m sick of it, disgusted by it, and will no longer be party to it.
    We live in a very complex world and ‘simple” solutions only satisfy simpletons.

  39. I am sorry, how is the history of WWII wrong?
    Did Japan not attack us?

  40. You know, none of this is mythical history.

  41. Michael says:

    Derek,

    There is a growing number of historians who believe that nuking Japan was not necessary…and believe that Truman felt it unnecessary but did it to send a message to Russia.

  42. “We live in a very complex world and ‘simple” solutions only satisfy simpletons.”
    That is insulting.
    Your problem is that you cannot see through the eyes of a state and it’s responsibilities towards it’s people.

  43. Well, those historians can have their opinions.
    I have mine.
    You know what they say about opinions.

  44. Michael says:

    Derek,

    Does that state have any responsibility to people it also victimizes?
    These are not simple matters…and we sin…and I choose that word carefully…we sin when we try to pretend they are.

  45. Michael says:

    Good historians base their opinions on documentation and research…and we should do likewise.

  46. When you attack someone, and then you put yourself and your people in harms way when the victim of your attack comes and kicks your butt.
    This is the situation Hamas and the Palestinians are in right now.
    They create this situation every few years, then whine when they start to lose.
    Sorry, tired of terrorists and their ilk.
    I have been there done that and tired of being told to feel sorry for them.

  47. Michael,
    “We have created a new generation of suicide bombers and extremist ideologues because…”

    This is so wrong – whether it’s South and Central America of now the Middle East – it is always our fault according to you. Look, I said last week that the other Arab & Muslim countries could very well take care of all of the Palestinian needs, not some, but all – in fact they could make Gaza be the next Dubai, if they did not want to use the Palestinians as pawns. Our decisions are based on what Arabs & Muslims will not do for their own people.

    Give it up Michael – I am not saying that the US doesn’t make bad decisions from time to time (but even most of hose are made under duress and bad policy made in other parts of the world – but the US does enormous works of good. The US is the only country that gives aid to enemies and the US is the only moral voice out on the front lines.

  48. Ixtlan says:

    Lighten up Derek. This is about innocent victims. As for the terrorists, put a price on their head.

  49. Michael says:

    Derek,

    I am sick of trying to get people to look at a situation in it’s entirety and being told that I’m advocating sympathy for terrorists.
    That’s a lie.
    I hate terrorism as much as anyone, but unless you think you’re going to exterminate a huge population group then maybe we should attempt to understand why the soil is so fertile for it in these places.

  50. Daniel says:

    Derek, I’m glad to see that you can properly recount the official US version of the ending of WWII. Yes, you’re right, Japan attacked us. Most US casualties were servicemen. What the US did to innocent civilians with the 2 bombs was unconscionable. But that’s not even my main point. You see to agree with what we were all told: It would have cost way more lives to invade Japan. But, nobody ever asks, why would we have had to do that? We had already recaptured all the islands in the pacific and pushed the Japanese army/navy back to Japan. Why not a naval blockade until they surrendered? It always baffles me that the one nation on the planet that has used nuclear weapons to kill thousands of civilians seems to think they are the moral police of which nations are allowed to have nuclear weapons.

  51. My answer is no.
    They have a responsibility towards their own people. Nations are not a “Christian” they are a nation. They do things that nations have to do to keep order.
    It is good if you can do that, but if you can’t then your own people come first.
    If Mexico decided to invade, then I would want my nation to ensure that Americans came first and Mexicans next.
    I would hope that my nation would prosecute the war quickly and with little casualties as possible, but that is not always possible.
    If you keep a nation from protecting it’s people time and again, then you ensure a repeat of the same circumstances.
    The reason the Israeli/Palestinian conflict never seems to end is because we always stop them before a conclusion.
    Then we wonder why they just won’t stop fighting.

  52. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Stick it.
    I have never said that any of these situations is all our fault.
    I’m saying we need to take responsibility for what is our fault…fault that has been documented over and over again.
    The U.S. does do a lot of good…and a lot of damage as well.

  53. Daniel says:

    Thanks so much Michale for your point #9. You are spot on. This is a very complex situation, compounded in the Christian world by the right’s unwavering support for Israel, regardless of what they do (bombing Mosques and hospitals, not allowing food and water into Gaza, etc.).

  54. Michael,
    “I have never said that any of these situations is all our fault.”

    Said right after “We have created a new generation of suicide bombers and extremist ideologues because…”

  55. I did not say that you were advocating terrorists.
    But, have you had them sending rockets over your head on a daily basis?
    No, you haven’t.
    Anyone who hasn’t had to live with bombs dropping on them is just speaking all the right words to their audience with no experience of it.
    I know why the Israelis are tired of it.
    The only way you can really know that is to have had to be in that situation.

  56. Michael says:

    Derek,

    So when the U.S. covertly interferes with other “sovereign nations” in Central and South America and their governments and helps create hell holes…we have no responsibility to those whose suffering we contribute to?

  57. I am sorry, did I say anything about Central and South America?
    Stay on target.

  58. Michael says:

    MLD,

    To be more precise, I should have said the “West”

  59. Michael says:

    Derek,

    I asked a general question about the responsibility of our government.
    If you would like to focus on the fact that we do the same thing in the Middle East that’s fine too.

  60. Michael says:

    Daniel,

    Thank you…

  61. My opinion on 2 fronts is that Japan and Afghanistan are the only 2 legitimate wars in recent times – we were attacked and responded. All the others we were goaded into in error.

    Second – it is time to realize that Israel is a failed experiment – 66 yrs of international turmoil, death and destruction. A man made effort gone wrong. Let the Jews go back home to New York City and Miami Beach and let’s get gas back down to $1 a gallon.

  62. I am talking about war, specifically the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
    Specifically, how a nation has a right to protect it’s people during war.
    Your Central and South America thing is not about war, but policy.
    It is not analogous to a war situation.

  63. Daniel says:

    MLD, you’re flat out delusional. Read the 9/11 report. Yah, countries hate us because we’ve bombed then, invaded them and overthrown their governments. Who knew that people didn’t like that? The only moral voice on the front lines?!?!?! What a joke. You mean the country killing people via drone strikes (including its own citizens) is the moral voice?

  64. Michael says:

    Derek,

    Wars don’t just happen.
    They come about because of policies.
    My question is whether there are Israeli policies that have led to this war and if those policies are not changed then how many wars and how many innocents much die?
    Is there are better way to kill terrorists than bombing hospitals where the majority of the dead will be innocents?
    Why aren’t we asking all the questions that need to be asked?

  65. Daniel,
    “Read the 9/11 report” I know – another Bush & Cheney did it.- You guys are getting to be a dime a dozen.

    Yes, we kill bad guys – sometimes innocents get killed and it is usually because the bad guys are hiding behind their women and children.

  66. Michael says:

    “Dirty Wars” by Scahill is a must read on this topic…

  67. To be clear – I would be happy to have the US be an isolationist country – cut off most foreign aid and let the rest of the world show us how it is to be done properly.

    After we watch them for a generation or two, then perhaps we will be worthy to help the world.

  68. Jean says:

    Derek,

    Do you deny that the modern state of Israel was born out of a Jewish terrorist movement that pushed out the British?

    Do you deny that most of the Palestinians in the Gaza are there as refugees from what is now the State of Israel who were pushed out at gunpoint?

    Do you deny that when Israel evacuated Gaza they have maintained it like a prison, restricting borders, fishing, airspace, all trade, utilities, etc.

    Until the Israelis acknowledge the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, there will be no peace.

    America is complicit in the atrocities committed by the Israeli military, because we finance them to the tune of more than $3 billion per year in military assistance.

  69. Hamas uses the hospitals, schools and shelters to launch rocket attacks.
    Hamas uses human shields.

    Why?

    Maximize casualties. News sympathy. Public relations.
    Hamas uses ways they know that will look bad on Israel.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

    All the while not caring that Palestinians are dead. Their own people.

    Why aren’t you asking these questions?

    See, blaming evangelicals for blind support of Israel due to “right to the land” has blinded some to the fact that Israel is fighting an “aggressor” that we ourselves would not put up with.

    Yet, we want to stop them from protecting their people all the time.

  70. Jean,
    “Do you deny that the modern state of Israel was born out of a Jewish terrorist movement that pushed out the British?”

    I think you need to check this out or dump your previous sources – it was the British who put the Jews in Israel – beginning with the Balfour Declaration in 1917

    But as i said – a man made experiment gone wrong.

  71. Michael says:

    Derek,

    “Why aren’t you asking these questions?”

    I do ask those questions…and I understand the evil of Hamas.
    That is not the whole story however…and unless Israel is going to utterly exterminate it’s enemies without examining the rest of the story there will always be war.

  72. Jean,
    You need to read my other posts.
    I have no intention of answering your questions.

    I am focused on the state and it’s responsibilities to it’s people and showing that there is an aggressor in this conflict.
    I am not going to be sidetracked into all those questions that don’t really apply to what I am talking about.

  73. Michael says:

    Is aggression only military?
    Can aggression be economic or other means of oppression?

  74. “and unless Israel is going to utterly exterminate it’s enemies ”

    The only one speaking like that is Hamas.

  75. Jean says:

    MLD #71,

    I wouldn’t normally link to Wikipedia, but I’m not really interested in locating other sources for you. There is no credible debate that Jewish terrorists were instrumental in bringing about the British withdrawal from Palestine and pushing out Palestinians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

  76. Now you are nitpicking to support a point.
    Again, I am talking war. Not economics.

    Seems like no one else wants to though.
    Night all.

  77. Jean,
    Now you are just being the opposite of the Israel loving evangelicals.
    I think some people just want to be contrary just to be contrary.

    I ignore most article that have Zionist in the link.

  78. Jean says:

    #73,

    Derek if you don’t want to answer my questions, then don’t. But if you ignore those issues, then you’re woefully ignorant of the problem.

  79. Jean says:

    #73,

    “I think some people just want to be contrary just to be contrary.”

    Derek, I’m a developing pacifist. That’s where I’m coming from, not just trying to be argumentative.

  80. Jean,
    Are you saying that the nation Israel was not created by the international community but was a hostil land grab by terrorists?

  81. Jean says:

    It was a combo package MLD. In that case terrorism paid off.

  82. Neo says:

    Israel doesn’t exterminate their enemies….just apartheids them. Including Christians.

  83. Babylon's Dread says:

    8. Mark my words…the next revival will come from some variation of Anabaptist theology.

    First, when was the last revival? Which of course will answer all kinds of questions.
    Second, what prompted this? Something is in the weeds here
    Third, what is special about the anabaptists in this regard?

  84. I just returned from 2 weeks in Israel. Spent time with a Palestinian believer, and was able to pick his brain. The most interesting contact I had was on the way over. A young man was flying in from the Sacramento area. He was born in Bethlehem. His mother lives in the West Bank and is a journalist. His father is a medical Dr. In Sacto. When he became of age he chose to become an American citizen because a a Palestinian, he was denied certain educational opportunities and when traveling abroad, could not fly directly into Tel Aviv. His is the sad commentary on the situation. Hamas and the Quran call for the annihilation of the Jews. One more than one occasion, going all the way back to the Peel plan, when ever Palestinians are offered land for peace, they don’t take it. Egyptian president Anwar Sadat was assassinated for recognizing Israel as a nation, negotiating a peace treaty, and unprecedentedly, speaking before the Knesset. Yassar Arafat was offered land for peace but said ” if they will give us land for peace imagine what we can take by force. As one man said ” the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity”.

    The tragic thing is there are very real victims in this ideological war. I support Israel, but I am not blind to their faults.

    The young man I spoke to on my flight over is studying world politics at Berkley. I asked how do you solve this problem in the middle east. He said “that’s the big question. The person who figures that out will be some kind of great man”

  85. Michael says:

    BD,

    In my opinion the last true revival was the Jesus Movement of the 70’s.

    What prompted me is studying how hamstrung the Reformation was by political and nationalistic issues and observing that evangelicalism in this country is in worse shape than they were because of the same.

    The Anabaptists were looking for an expression of the Gospel unencumbered by the state and practiced on the margins of the culture…and I think we desperately need to heed that call to that place.

    In my opinion, of course.

  86. Michael says:

    “The person who figures that out will be some kind of great man”

    Indeed…because it is a terribly complex situation.

  87. Babylon's Dread says:

    Of course Michael I believe the out workings of the Jesus People goes on in the circles I have joined. I recognize that would be odious to many but revival is always offensive. The Jesus People revival was certainly offensive until it was domesticated by mainstream evangelicalism.

    Lonnie Frisbee created a mess everywhere he went and I do not mean because of his moral failures. Frisbee went from Chuck Smith to Bob Mumford to John Wimber. Wimber of course WAS anabaptist before he became Calvary and then was pushed out because his expression of revival was more Frisbee than Smith. I still think there would never have been a Chuck Smith without Lonnie but I cannot be certain.

    Smith was offended Wimber who was offended by Toronto … each man drew lines and those lines got crossed by radicals.

    The Toronto gang is unique in that they are trying to navigate what they have received without being offended by the potential next wave.

    Who will that be? I think Michael may be right…

    It definitely will not be dignified folk

  88. Michael says:

    BD,

    The next group that camps on the margins and receives the Spirit will be stripped of all dignity by the religious and political powers…but they won’t care.
    I’m ready…

  89. Jean says:

    #87,

    If someone asked me who to go to for advice, I would send him/her to Desmond Tutu.

  90. Babylon's Dread says:

    Well. concerning Israel; whoever foreswears violence will get heard – then killed – then avenged. Lots of things will get named after them, including the streets where the next battles are fought.

    WWIII will start over there soon enough and we may all convert to pre-something.

    Beating Our Skulls into Plowshares Dread

  91. JimB says:

    Barbarous Islamic Jihad against the west is centuries old going back almost to Islam’s inception, but we have not kept up with our history and I believe that this is the reason that today some are saying that America or Israel is responsible for modern-day Jihad. There are numerous links describing the long and sordid history of Jihad attacks, if one cares to research. Check out this link about the history of Jihad, for instance: http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4227/islam_s_jihad_against_the_west_is_centuries_old

    Also, it is not just in Israel (or America) that Jihad has been carried out in the past 50 years, it is happening all over the world. Check out this website and clink on the link “List of Islamic Terror Attacks”, where the attacks are all listed chronologically: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
    The prevalence and wide scope of Jihad attacks occurring today should be shocking to you.

    Islamic terror will be in our neighborhoods very soon, I believe. I think we will all feel differently about how we should respond when it becomes personal for us.

    I don’t say that Israel or the US is faultless, however I think that considering the constant wars and terrorist attacks against Israel that have occurred since it became a nation in 48′, Israel has been a whole lot more patient and congenial with “Palestinians” than we would have been if we were constantly threatened and attacked as they have been.

  92. Neo at #83
    Perhaps this will put you on the right trail and add some perspective to your mis statement

    http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/04/for-a-racist-apartheid-ethnic-cleansing-state-we-certainly-do-have-a-lot-of-arabs-living-in-it/

  93. SJ says:

    I don’t believe there can be peace in Israel. Zechariah 12:2.
    In the big picture, they are the center of most if not all end times study. Where ever you are WRT your theology I don’t think this can be denied.
    If, when there is peace then 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
    In our little micro realm we get caught up in ME politics. We need to praying for the addition of Jewish and Muslim souls to the book of life and that God uses these ME issues for the furthering of HIS kingdom. This is the best we can do.

  94. john mushenhouse says:

    I have considered Rev. Hall as a coward, a bully and a hypocrite for a while. He had a show where he went up to a charismatic service to confront the preacher in the midst of the service and was thrown out. he wore that as his badge of self-righteousness. I e-mailed him and asked what if someone would interrupt his service due to his begging for money is prominent on his web page and on his radio show. How would he handle it. Of course, I got no reply

  95. PP Vet says:

    Trashes the Renewal, trashes Rick Joyner, questions the reports from Mozambique, does not notice 30 million people get saved in China, and announces that he is hoping for revival, but expects people will trash it when it occurs. Sigh.

  96. Jim says:

    I think our Government’s interest is overseas conflicts is arrogant and perverse, as everything that happens everywhere is not our concern. The “only democracy in the region” argument is meaningless, and certainly doesn’t justify $3 billion a year donations of other people’s money.

    Like any sovereign nation, Israel has a right to defend herself, but the propaganda from both sides should be disregarded. What we are witnessing is nothing more than blood-lust and deep seated, racially motivated hatred. Man at his very worst.

    If you want to lionize Israel, and think the $3 billion is well spent, you might want to google the Dahiya doctrine.

  97. Bob says:

    When asked to teach his disciples about prayer He responded with a very rabbinic and Jewish prayer. In that prayer Jesus said to pray, “Thy Kingdom, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”

    So what does the will or rule of God look like on earth?

  98. Bob says:

    Ok sorry I left out an important part, Thy Kingdom come…”

    But what does that look like? It can’t be some future date when the trump calls is it?

  99. Gregory says:

    Michael,

    posted a link on the Zwingli thread to a Swiss Anabaptist and Reformer thesis from a Mennonite Theologian…agree with your #8 statement. I think though the label was assigned to them by their antagonists just like evangelical was……oh……repent, follow JESUS, love your neighbor as you want to be loved. Why? well HIS life and work on the cross demands it but with love. For the love of Christ constrains me. Not ritual works but works that come from GOD that are put in me when I cooperate. JESUS…he fulfilled the law and the prophets….grace and peace bro….praying for you and what the HS has next for you. He will probably connect all the spurious dots to make sense of the next step….in the meantime do the work of an evangelist and be an ambassador of Christ.

    Gregory

  100. Gregory says:

    all the action in the OT happen in David’s tent of meeting……think, ponder, selah

  101. Jean says:

    99 & 100,

    I will take a shot at an introduction to the answer. If churches are charged with being kingdom outposts in the world for the purposes of being salt and light, bringing honor to God (Matt 5:13-16), then God’s will on earth should be evident in the community of church when it lives up to its calling. I refer to this as an introduction, because I’m not being very specific about what specifically the church is called to be; however, if there’s general agreement that the church is where God’s will is to be found on earth, then we can dig deeper into the specifics of how the church should reflect God’s will on earth. At the same time, we recognize that since the church is inhabited by sinners, it will never reflect the perfect will of God.

  102. Bob says:

    Jean

    I read the past thread which went on with over 300 comments debating the elements and practice of communion, all I could ask myself, “is this what the Kingdom of God looks like? If so I don’t want any part of it.

    Why post such a comment in light of all the tension of Israel verses the Hamas in this thread? Quite frankly I believe many would rather support death and destruction from either side than God’s rule and Kingdom over both sides.

    Does the church represent God’s Kingdom and therefore rule? I think it does a far better job of representing sinners and sin than it does love for God. Of course maybe that’s what people want out of their religions. Just my thoughts.

  103. Jean says:

    Bob, I can’t argue with your assessment of the thread. It’s darn hard for people to get along, whether in the church or outside. But I wonder what the world would be like if it didn’t have the church, warts and all. I’m pretty sure that if I had a personal need and was local to any of the contributors to the thread on communion, I could count on their help as a manifestation of Christ’s rule. So, perhaps blogs don’t reveal the church very well some of the time. We can probably do better.

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