We Should Be Ashamed

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133 Responses

  1. Nonnie says:

    I read an article that said that all the men, in unison cried out upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

    I count them as brothers in Christ, killed for their faith.

    Even if they were atheists, I would still mourn for them. No one should be butchered like this.

    ISIS is pure evil. God help us.

  2. What is the “WE”? Why should I be ashamed of the actions of others. If they want to be weenies, I can’t control them and don’t even try.

  3. George says:


  4. Michael says:


    I get that you only concern yourself with what the LCMS does.
    I feel a greater burden for the whole universal, catholic church.

  5. Laura Scott says:

    Ministry first, invitation second. We get that backward all the time.

  6. papiaslogia says:


    Reading James Whites post, he seems to be saying something different than what you state. I am not seeing where he equates Coptic theology to their not being saved.

    He’s saying that just because they were killed by ISIS, that doesn’t mean that they were saved.

    Did I miss something?

  7. Jim says:

    God saved me 33 years ago. I noticed early on that some Christians say stupid stuff. I’m one of them sometimes.

    I wish Christians would refuse to fall for the ginned up bloodlust.

  8. Michael – wait a minute – before yesterday I had never heard of JD Hall nor his Pen and Pulpit blog. Why should I feel shame because HE is an idiot?

    I think you take away from the real meaning of shame when applied to something like this. Probably 10,000 American Christian blogs did not say these, so I will proudly standby them and ignore the others.

    But if you feel there is value in stirring up shame in good folks over this issue … well, go ahead.

  9. Michael says:


    I’ve already been unfriended once for “encouraging a false gospel”.
    Most of us live outside your Lutheran bubble.

  10. covered says:

    The outrage should be pouring out because of the actions of the group carrying out the judgment on others. This is a crime against humanity. For any one claiming to be a Christian feeling as though they need to be heard in the midst of this atrocity is asinine.

    I’m waiting for someone to complain that the orange suits that the victims were wearing were inappropriate for the occasion.

    Shame on all of us.

  11. Michael,
    All I can say is that you give far more credit to the JD Halls of this world than they deserve. Because I don’t know who JD Hall is means I live in a ‘Lutheran’ bubble?

    You should be ashamed – do not assume just because someone (like JD Hall) has a blog and uses it means that he is at all relative or responsible.

  12. J.U. says:

    First and foremost, we are all human, and I’m sure everyone on this blog weeps for the murder of 21 human beings, be they Muslims, Christians, HIndus, or Atheists.

    I agree with Covered on that point, it is a crime, and I’m sure everyone else on this blog agrees.

    I’m not a universalist. I believe that Christ is the route to salvation, but I’m not in the judging business or even the parsing business. So when I read anything that says this person or that person is not a true Christian, my B.S. filters come up.

    To be very honest, I feel the same way when the discussion is Mormons or other pseudo-Christian sects. I understand issues of doctrine and that some doctrinal issues are really a big deal. Good example: the triune nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, or the divinity of Christ.

    But it isn’t my job to judge, but to simply obey God’s word to the best of my ability and hope I qualify. (I believe I do qualify, I am saved, but if I have doubts about myself, then how can I judge anyone else.) I can’t see people’s hearts. Only God can.

    So I weep for the loss of human life. I hope and pray they were saved as then they have gone to their reward. But, on this earth, I weep for all death and suffering.

  13. Josh The Baptist says:

    I do think you misread James White. A quote:

    ” I do not know these men’s hearts. I would like to think them all true believers, simply because they did not, seemingly, do the easy thing and convert to Islam to escape their gruesome execution. I have met believing, vital Coptic Christians (yes, despite my many criticisms of practices and beliefs, I know of evangelical Copts who have a vital faith, despite the official teachings on certain topics).”

    So I don’t think he was condemning them at all.

    JD HAll should have stayed off the internet. He’s only good for making people mad.

  14. Erunner says:

    News is out ISIS just burned 45 men alive In I believe Iraq. My heart breaks for these victims no matter their faith. It is a barbaric way to die and reminds me of things Hitler did.

    We can mourn the loss of any life without or even knowing they were in Christ. When we stop mourning deaths like this a piece of us dies.

    And to think these animals do the same to women and children.

    Yes, and before ISIS this was routine stuff in Mexico.

    We are capable of the most heinous evil. And we should thank God that we belong to Him but once were just as lost as any member of ISIS.

  15. Babylon's Dread says:

    I do not like the motives that live in my heart sometimes.

    I had no trouble counting these people as Christians. It never entered my mind to wonder about their confessional faith. So obviously I am not guilty of the sins of my Calvinist counterparts.

    My sin and I showed it yesterday is that my impulse is to desire to see these demons killed without mercy. Thus I want the military to go wipe ISIS from the earth.

    It isn’t a motive given to me by the Spirit of God but it is what I would do, and I do not even own a gun, nor do I want one.

    Oh God make it stop… but the evil that is in them might just be in me also.

  16. JoelG says:

    “I’ve already been unfriended once for “encouraging a false gospel”.

    And how loving of them to unfriend you so you can’t hear the “real” gospel.

    “Christians are hard to tolerate; I don’t know how Jesus does it” – Bono

  17. Erunner says:

    Jim, I by no means believe we as a nation have clean hands during the recent wars in the middle east. Some say our actions led to the rise of ISIS to begin with. But we have a very clear and present danger in ISIS and other radicalized Muslim terrorists that has to be dealt with just as the Nazi presence had to be dealt with.

    ISIS is spreading and they take pleasure in slaughtering the innocent in unspeakable ways. They are the issue the world needs to address instead of talking about it. Otherwise who knows what they will become capable of. I simply want this evil to stop.

  18. Linda Pappas says:


    I don’t get angry often, meaning rage is a rare emotion that wells up within me. I happened to know a couple of Coptic Christian who immigrated here and still have family there. We have had extensive discussion about God’s Word and there was nothing shared by them that cause me to doubt their confession of the Faith.

    When I became aware of the mass execution of these men and viewed the pictures, I saw one of the men looking up into the heavens and another appearing as though he was praying. I could not and would not view any video as I had done once when another person was being, beheaded. Then I read your article today—– and I thought about the Holocaust and how many people knew long before all hell broke out in Germany what was being done to so many, but stood around with the same attitude and vocalized similar thoughts, somehow, as if by doing so, minimized the horror of the evil that was being perpetrated.

    I have yet to hear of anyone speaking in terms of questioning these men’s salvation directly, but if I do, woe unto them, as far as getting a piece of my mind. Are we, as Christians not to mourn, rather than to pontificate on the merits of their salvation. My God, have mercy on us all for being so vacuous and insensitive to the plight and the horrendous ordeal that these men suffered and the trials and ongoing challenge to the faith and bereavement of those they left behind. If anything, where in all this is the outrage that ought to be sounding from the walls of Christianity and all within instead.

  19. mike says:

    And Calvin had 68 killed for failure to conform to his doctrine
    Including Michael Servetus.
    killers all

  20. Michael says:

    I’m buried with personal matters today, but a couple notes.

    The Copts are close to the Orthodox in theology, thus have a different soteriology than Protestants.
    White has spoken to this before and that is what he was hinting at in this article.


    Calvin was the chief prosecution witness in the Servetus case.
    He had no authority to condemn or execute anyone as he was not even a Genevan citizen.
    Who these other 60 some you lay at his hand are unknown to me.
    Try reading some reputable history and try again.

  21. Kevin H says:

    Oh boy, you had to go there. You just can’t help yourself sometimes, Mike. Can you?

  22. Kevin H says:

    The J.D. Hall article is just disgusting. The White article had some decent points, but he would have much better off not treading into the “we can’t really say for sure if these men were really Christians or not.” Completely unnecessary to go there.

  23. Kevin H says:

    Isn’t J.D. Hall the one who cyber-bullied Ergun Caner’s kid shortly before he took his own life? Quite a nice guy, this Hall fellow.

  24. Josh The Baptist says:

    “White has spoken to this before”

    This is probably true, but it is different discussing serious theological differences in the abstract, vs. condemning people who just had their heads chopped off. I don’t think White is guilty of the latter, as unfriendly as he often may be.

  25. mike says:

    I can assure you of two things

    1 I am well read.
    2 you have no idea what books or materials I have read from which to cast aspersions or judgments as to their repute or accuracy.

    But I will see your passive aggression and raise you forgiveness for your backhanded insult to my intelligence.

    Have a great day.

  26. Paige says:

    Grievous in every way; both the executions, and this banter over who is right.

    I suspect that when any of us are lined up like this on our knees with knives at our throats and sheer evil at the other end of that knife, ALL our doctrinal disputations will evaporate, and we will be, at last freed from the ego that drives such divisions and pomp. We shall at last, know as we are known”. Saved by grace, through faith, lest any man should boast.

    Indeed, Lord help us all….. “Blessed are you when men persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for My Name’s sake…. “

  27. Josh The Baptist says:

    Amen, Paige.

  28. Tim says:

    How could anyone fault their doctrine and say they are not Christian? Their confession at death sounds a lot like the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

  29. George says:

    AMEN. Is there more than 1 George here? Amen.

  30. George says:

    phoenixpreacher good. I told one of them that I’m more interested in converting my enemies than my friends and those that have Jesus name

  31. filbertz says:

    If we conditionally grieve, we will conditionally love.

  32. Jim says:


    Listen to their own words. They are a clear and present danger to the middle east. Their hatred of us is because of our foreign policy, which is despicable.

  33. London says:

    I feel no shame for the ignorance of others .
    Only sadness at the lost of these men.
    I have no doubt that Coptic Christians are truly Christians who happen to believe and practice their faith a bit different than I do.

  34. mike says:

    Praying for their families now

  35. Alex says:

    Yup, one of the biggest most prevailing Salvation Constructs is “Salvation by Correct Understanding / Correct Doctrine/Theology”

    The other prevailing Salvation Construct is Salvation by Good Works.

    Most Salvation Constructs are a weird mixing of the two with various degrees of nuance.

  36. Jim says:

    And we destabilized the govts that were their protectors in Libya and Syria. From 2011:

    “Gaddafi’s administration gave us freedom and the next one will too, judging by the way we’ve been treated here,”


  37. Jim says:

    Gin it up, Michael.

  38. Michael says:


    I’m not trying to “gin anything up”.

    What I am trying to do is get people to wrap their heads around the fact that there is true evil in this world.
    I agree with you that we helped bring some of this on.
    On the other hand, this has been the way of radical Islam from the start and innocents are being slaughtered.
    In my world, if you can stop evil you have the responsibility to do so.
    How we do that is open to debate, whether we should do so should be a given.

  39. Jim says:

    So, we should always be at war everywhere, as great evil always occurs everywhere.

  40. Jim says:

    And the “we” in question is our nation’s military. The guys who nuked two cities and the only nation that currently uses napalm. Are going to suit up, are will you send your neighbor’s children to kill and die in the sand?

  41. Michael says:

    We are already always at war, some declared, some covert.
    Some are righteous, more often they are not.

    I don’t believe it right to watch evil grow unchecked when it is within the ability of others to stop it.

  42. Michael says:


    Is your position simply to let this evil grow in power and let others fend for themselves?
    I ask because without intervention this will grow.

  43. Jim says:

    Here’s my final words, as I’m pissed, and I’m sure I’m ticking others off.

    The US is as guilty as isis. We don;t win any battles at the ballot box, as politics corrupts. We only win in the court of public opinion, as politicians are addicted to polls.

    Ginning up bloodlust in this current environment plays right into their hands.


  44. Jim says:


    Yes. Tell the leaders of the region that we are leaving, and that they’ll have to clean up our mess.

  45. Anne says:

    Silly, Jim. Only when defending our and our friends’ financial investments 😉 Eliminating the barbaric slaughter in African, Mexican or South American countries isn’t any part of our military’s call to arms until it threatens our nations financial investments as far as I can tell. Perpetual war seems to have become part of our national fabric. A huge lynchpin in our GNP.

    I read the article in the Atlantic previously. A lot of truth in realizing that our involvement may do more to spread ISIS and their like, that they are not the threat to western civilization the talking heads in the west exagerate them to be. Despicable. Yes. But they do not hold the corner market on that. Unfortunately.

  46. Francisco says:

    With regard to violence in Mexico. ISIL style tactics have certainly occurred in Mexico since former President Calderon decided to take on organized crime groups in 2006. However it should be noted that the beheading propaganda did not occur in Mexico prior to 2006. It was actually Al Zarqawi in Iraq who started this violent trend with the first decapitation of an American contractor during May 2004. Several criminal groups in Mexico then started imitating these same tactics to intimidate a nation.

    These brazen tactics work because they instill fear in people who are then afraid to respond. Evil’s objective to intimidate and instill fear in a people and it works when those who can do something…………choose to do nothing.

    The Irish statesman and supporter of the original colonies during the American war of independence once said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke

  47. Steve Wright says:

    How journalists and news media report on news and how Christian commentators and bloggers respond are two totally different issues.

    And whether one wants to face it or not, our President’s insistent apologies and silence on the Islamic – Christians aspect to all the violence IS a news story that any thinking media member ought to comment on. This is not an isolated incident. It is years of repeated apologies, false equivalencies and the like coming out of the White House where even liberals and atheists are starting to notice. Call it “politicizing” all one wants, it is also something called reporting. Reporting what the man holding the most powerful office in the free world says about world events.

    The Crusades comparison at the prayer breakfast.
    The “workplace violence” comments for murder in the name of Allah
    The repeated insistence on calling Mohammed “the prophet” whenever mention, with the added chiding to the UN that the future can’t belong to those who slander him.

    The self-imposed censorship..and on and on and on.

    And no, I don’t think Obama is a Muslim, yes, I think they would cut his head off too if given the chance…BUT, it IS a news story that he refuses to speak of the religious aspect to this repeated Christian persecution.

    I’m glad someone is willing to report on it.

  48. It’s sad that politics and the questioning of salvation even enters the conversation. I believe it is necessary to discuss and understand the political climate, history and possible future action and speak out. I also think it is good for us to know Coptic soteriology, just like we should understand the same about any Christian sect/denomination/sub-group. BUT NOT TODAY! NOT NOW!

    Human beings, some believers, perhaps some not, have been slaughtered by other human beings enamored with evil. Lord, have mercy on their souls. God, please strengthen and protect those who try to prevent such things from continuing. Help us to mourn over the injustice and loss of life, and forgive me for times when I have been judgmental rather than merciful.

  49. I think we should bring home our troops from all over the world – put them on the borders and in our ports, aim our missiles out and tell the world go screw yourself. But I have trouble getting others to follow along.

  50. Polo says:

    Jim “The US is as guilty as isis.”

    Thats probably the single most ignorant comment ever posted on the PP

  51. Jim says:

    Really Polo? You want a list?

    Has isis done anything close to dropping nukes on two cites?

  52. London says:


  53. Polo says:

    If a band of marauders were attacking and killing your neighbors, would you turn a blind eye? Or would you call the police to come and address the problem? Well guess what- we are the worlds police. We are the most powerful nation in the world and we have a long history of “rescuing” peoples suffering at the hands of unspeakable evil.

    To turn our backs on the victims of ISIS is no different than turning our backs on the victims of the Holocaust, or turning our backs on the victims of the Haiti EQ or Phillipine psunami. Or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. Or genocide in Africa. In all these instances- we have a moral obligation to assist the helpless.

    ISIS is a satanic tool of the devil- following a satanic religion- enagaged in satanic massacres. We cannot stand idly by and watch them massacre innocents.

  54. Polo says:

    Jim- the nuclear bombs were a calculated act of war that saved millions of lives. And it was a war- nations declaring destruction against nations. War involves death. Sometimes innocents perish.

    ISIS is not enagaged in war- they are murderers- pure and simple. They are evil- pure and simple.

    The US has never deliberately murdered innocent victims in cold blood. Under your philosophy, our heroic soldiers are reduced to murderous thugs. Is that what you believe?

  55. George says:

    Some people can spoil a brilliant blog posting. Like ruining a good day.

  56. Jim says:


    Where did you get the insane notion that the US is the world’s police?

    Why would a third Iraqi war be more successful than the first two? Would you like to occupy Iraq for 100 years? How many countries would you like to occupy as the “world’s police”?

  57. George says:

    The only thing worse than a world with America is a world without America. Not original.

  58. AmericanCopt says:

    I am Coptic Orthodox and I believe wholeheartedly in my Church and in any Church that raises her flock to never deny Christ even if they’re being hacked. Have faith brothers and sisters in Christ, the future will need love for one another and support to all the brethren because the Devil will not diffeenciate between Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant.

  59. Bob says:


    Thank you!

    To those who want to go and hide and those who think these people aren’t Chistian, who cares!

    If the ISIS was doing this to their own I would still have the same reaction, we can’t ignore it.

    It’s one thing to never know such wrong is happening but now that we know, decent moral people step in and do something.

    BTW If they receive Jesus as Messiah, damned their church, they can be called Christians.

  60. Alex says:

    I’m more of a non-interventionist Ideologically…but sometimes you gots to drop the bomb as they say.

    The nukes in WWII were unfortunately necessary and stopped the war cold.

    ISIS serves a purpose and they were partly a CIA construction…weapons run through Benghazi to Syria, training of the “moderate Syrian rebels” at Jordanian bases.

    The ISIS/ISIL blitzkrieg undid what took the US many years to accomplish…and that was creating a more stable Super-Iran-Iraq-Syria state. A stable Super-state with nuke capability (Iran) was not a good thing.

    ISIS/ISIL has undone that and brought a lot of turmoil to the region…which is what we wanted.

    The most dangerous thing for the US and Israel is a stable, economically successful, strong and peaceful region that hates the US and Israel.

    Sure ISIS/ISIL cuts off some heads, makes a lot of noise etc…but they aren’t a threat to the US, not really. They are, however, a real threat to Iran, Syria and even the Saudis are scared to death of them.

    I said years ago and I’ll say it again…arm all the sides…let them kill each other over there. Keep our sons and daughters at home.

  61. Ixtlan says:

    A very frustrating thread to read through.

    This is not about who is qualified to cast the first stone. If that were the case, then none of humanity would be qualified to act. This is about dealing with injustice.

    We who name the Name of Christ are left with the difficult task of living in two kingdoms that at best share only a portion of the same ethical point of view. The inquity of the Canaanite is yet again full. Having done some work in just war theories and natural law, these actions are exactly what the LORD of Hosts would call his prophets to stir His kings into taking the sword against.

    It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive christians are regarding the real world suffering and injustice imposed upon others. If we would spend more time learning the word of God and the various systematic theologies that come from it, we might have a better understanding of what constitutes the body of Christ. And to start with, any act of murder is abomidible in the eyes of I AM. We need to learn to truly weep with those who weep. Insteas we are distracted by our shallow preoccupations of what we consider christian culture. No wonder we see little, true, authentic power.

  62. Alex says:

    The larger war is USA/NATO vs. Russia/China.

    Our proxies are Israel, Saudi Arabia while Russia’s proxies are Iran, Iraq-allied Iran and Syria.

    Saudi Arabia hates us, but hates Iran and Syria just as much if not more.

    Russia is making noise in Eastern Europe and that is our larger concern. That’s why we unleashed ISIS/ISIL (partly) to destabilize the region and attack Syria and to undo Iraqi stability that was now allied with Iran and Syria.

    We needed to hit Russia but can’t do it militarily so we scared the Saudis into dumping a bunch of oil on the world markets to quickly crash oil prices. John Kerry went in Sept. 14 to deliver the deal to the Saudis…not long after they flooded the oil market. The threat? Do it or we won’t help you with ISIS/ISIL and if drop oil prices it will also hurt your arch enemies Iran…but Russia is our larger target.

    Oil prices dropped huge. Russia is feeling the heat of that op. We’re hoping the economic pressure slows their roll in Eastern Europe. We’ll see if it works….

  63. Alex says:

    Obama is sincerely pro-Islam and anti-Israel…and Obama is friends with the muslim brotherhood etc…that is all real and true.

    However, the CIA is the silent invisible hand that moves the foreign policy pieces around the board and pretty much informs the two parties and the two party’s leaders what has happened after the fact or in the moment to a degree there is no other option but to support what they’re doing.

    The politicians come and go…the silent invisible bureaucrats and their relationships with the military complex and the business interests in those regions is the mover and shaker of policy. The politicians’ jobs are to create a two-party distraction to the public and to sell one particular narrative or another.

  64. Alex says:

    …actually the CIA and MI6 and NATO spy agencies and leaders and the militaries and businesses they are connected to.

  65. Alex says:

    The Iraq War was a 2-party war…the Democrats just hope you forget they signed off on it and they had the power to stop the War Resolution.

    The CIA gave the Dems the same info they gave the Repubs….and all Democrat Leaders in the House and Senate, including the big guns like Hillary Clinton…supported the War Resolution.


    B/c the CIA, MI6 and NATO wanted a war.

  66. Alex says:

    In fact, Hillary Clinton was much more articulate and persuasive of her defense of the War Resolution than any Republican:

  67. Alex says:

    Macro-Economics is the same Dynamic as Foreign Policy and War.

    It’s not the two parties that are in charge…it’s the FED, Treasury and Big Banks/Wall Street.

    The politicians come and go, one is perceived as pro-Wall Street…the other preaches a narrative of “hope and change”…the new guy gets in…and doubles down on the same agenda as the old guy.

    Why? B/c like with Foreign Policy and Wars….the Macro-Economy is a World Currency War and a battle for Power and control.

    In fact, the two are closely intertwined…the Macro-Econ keepers of the flame (FED, Treasury, Wall Street) and the Intelligence/Military community.

    Those are your real powers. The 2 parties are largely a distraction and both parties serve those entities, those interests.

  68. Alex says:

    That is the cold hard troof….but….

  69. Linnea says:

    I agree with Michael, Nonnie, Paige, BD, etc…forgive me, I haven’t read the whole thread. These are brothers in the faith. It is shameful to distance ourselves from them. As Nonnie said, “God help us.”

  70. Paige says:

    Amen, amen AmericanCopt #64. Amen.

  71. Linda Pappas says:

    Yes, American Coptic, I will stand with you in prayer and support.

    Heavenly Father, please help us all to guard against the oppressor of our souls and that which is holy and precious in your sight. Please, Father, calm our spirits as we think through these things. Father, you are omniscience and you are omnipotent, and you omnipresent, but we are limited in so many ways, yet we are many and we do lift our hearts, our minds, and our thoughts up to you, asking you to speak to our hearts and fill us with your Holy Spirit, granting us much wisdom and the wherewithal to do what we can do in coming alongside of these who are suffering so. Father, these are desperate times and uncertain times and much confusion as well as a lack or wanting of something so much better than what we now see going on in our midst and in those theatre in countries and communities far from our shores. Please, Father help our leaders do what you would have them to do without hesitation regardless of what their own agendas may be. Help us as individuals to increase our empathy for one another, whether they are in You or not. Help us to hold a firm line in our faith, not permitting our differences to detract from that is far more important and essential in pouring the Love that you have given to us into that which has hands and feet and not just in word only. Help us to be sensitive without getting lost in our emotions striking out or even folding in, but to be able to put ourselves in the place of others, then asking like one might: “God, have mercy on me,” as I bow my head knowing that in the next few minutes, my captors will take my life without so much of a hint of what they are doing is as wrong and as murderous as one can be. Father, dear God, my heart is heavy and how I wish with all that is within me that somehow, some way people would stop before they so easily dismiss things like this and then say because it is not in my backyard, it does not concern me. Help us all to be concerned, Father—pierce our hearts that we may remember, that we too stand at the door where at any given moment You can humble us to keep us in remembrance of those we closed our hearts, minds, hands, and feet to in their hour of need. Father, I thank you for I know that even though we feel so helpless over this, Pour your spirit of boldness upon us, Lord so that we would not hide our heads in shame but rather be empowered to speak from the rooftops against such things that only serves to bring victory to the prince of darkness and not to the church or Your Holy Name. Send your angels Lord to these places to go before those to do battle against such evil. Put a hedge of protection about those who live in constant fear against those who has every intention harming them. Father, I get frustrated because I know there are layers and layers of issues on the table that we can only speculate about, At the same time, Father, I think and Lord, please be patient with me in this—isn’t the bottom line in all this, well isn’t it really about the heart and the testing of our faith and what we do with that faith when people are in trouble and need our help, our prayers, and our support when evil have arrived at their door. Anyway, Father, I just wanted to stop by in the midst of sharing on this blog, and didn’t want to leave without acknowledging and lifting up these petitions before you, in the midst of the saints and particularly for those who are of the Coptic Christian brothers and sisters. Because of Jesus, Lord, I come boldly before your throne to do this. Please Father, hear our prayers–thank you.

  72. brian says:

    This is one issue that brought me to this board I think well over ten years. Pretty much every person I have worked with and deeply loved / love lacks the “intellectual” capability to fully and completely understand the trinity, have every single aspect of the hypostatic union and the Sonship of Christ towards the Father, how the Spirit interacts in the Trinity, They do not fully and completely understand and can, faster than instantaneously respond to any questions with a correct apologetic that lasts less than 30 seconds, unless its a debate, then it can go on for as long as the opening remark. They cannot parse a verse, understand the difference between poetry and historical text along with how the canon was arrived at. They cannot define all the civil, spiritual, and ceremonial laws of the OT, they cannot explain the cessation of the gifts and of exclusivism of the Gospel and the Five Sola’s along with the five petals of tulip. These are critical and over arching issues, theology matters.

    They will be forcefully loyal, often forgiving in seconds, love unconditionally, helpful, merciful, and they do pray and call on Jesus many times. Of course all this is emotionalism thus utterly and completely useless. From the very cheap seats, it really is not good news, it never has been.

  73. Linda Pappas says:

    For those who think Japan was ready to surrender before they drop the bombs, you might want to pick up a copy of “Unbroken,” by Laura Hillenbrand.

    Until the B 29s and the bombs were dropped, we along with our allies were pretty much done in. Why—need to read the book to find out. 🙂

  74. Linda Pappas says:

    Also might want to view the movie, “The Imitation Game.”

    Having to do with Europe being run over for as long as they were during WWII.

    “Unbroken,” covered WWII in the Pacific with Japan.

    Eye Openers at best.

  75. Joe says:

    If these men where not born again, but religious. I would believe each one of called on the name of Jesus and got saved. And im sure they stood and refused to renounce Christ, but died as true maryrs. To God be the glory, and precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

  76. Joe says:

    Ive been studying Islam from differant sources over the past few years. These executions have been going on for along time. The differance is we have media, internet now that is bringing it to the forefront. Isis is really following in the exact steps of there prophet, his generals. Im not holding out hope for the world or the usa to snap out of its denial that Islam is a evil satanic religion, first against the jews, then christians, then the rest if the infidels.

  77. Linda Pappas says:


    You are correct. Back in the early 80’s while in college, I became good friends with a student whose father was also going to the same college. They were on a temporary Visa from Saudi Arabia and very much connected within the royal family. I spent a lot of time with her and on several occasion was invited to their home. The family accepted me due being able to help my friend out in writing some papers and to find a good place to care for their pet while they flew to various places in the world on a regular schedule. I also attended the graduation party the family held for my friend and her father.

    During the course of developing a friendship with her, we were able to share our respective faith. There were many questions I had regarding why they did this or that. I was especially intrigue about how she could not go anywhere unless she was accompanied by one of the males in the family, her manner of dress, and how sometimes she would dress in the traditional garb and not. We then began talking about her engagement to a prince and how she wanted to be the only wife, but that it was not up to her, if this would or would not realized. The one question I really wanted to ask took quite a bit of time for me to broach. That being, Jihad. Finally, during one of our many discussions, I was able to introduce this.

    What you stated is regarding Jihad and is very much on the mind of every person that practices Islam, according to her. At the same time, she explained to me that not every person believes this, but yes it is taught quite diligently. When she told me this, I experienced a time of cognitive dissonance, as what I had experienced throughout months of talking, eating, studying, and sharing with my friend and her family seems so surreal in what she was sharing with me about Jihad. In the back of my mind, I felt a sense of fear, yet at the same time, I also I was comforted by the fact that we are in America and there was no way possible that I was in any danger of having my throat slit, or worse. Now, I most concerned for all that have transpire in this region over the past two and a half decades. I don’t think it is more of the same, but rather an escalation of those who are more intent on Jihad to realize the destiny they believe they are meant to carry out in the name of Mohammed, and of Allah.

  78. Charles says:

    Would we be as bold as these brothers with a sword at our necks? Would we cry Jesus save us? Or would we please for our lives?

  79. Alex says:

    “Would we be as bold as these brothers with a sword at our necks? Would we cry Jesus save us? Or would we please for our lives?”

    I wouldn’t have gotten my head cut off, I’d have died in a hail of gunfire.

  80. papiaslogia says:


    I am having that struggle right now – how do you die as a Christian? On your knees, or trying to “take as many of them as you can?” My flesh says the latter.

    When I read accounts of early Christian martyrs, they are dying on their knees while praying that “Jesus forgive them of their sins”.

  81. Jim says:


    Imagine these dudes in their costumes rolling down your street in their Toyotas. They wouldn’t make it two blocks in my neighborhood.

  82. Neo says:

    Cues “Blaze of Glory” for Alex. 🙂

  83. Alex says:

    Papias, ya, well like with slavery and sex slaves/concubines and women covering their heads and multiple wives etc…that was then, this is now 🙂 I’m not going to be martyr, if someone f’s with me or my family I’m going down swinging, not unarmed and on my knees.

    Jim, yup! Our neighborhood is like its own compound, one way in, one way out…and a Secret Service agent as the first house you have to get by on the way in LOL.

    Army Ranger across the street from me, retired Homicide Detective a couple doors down, a competition shooter next door, etc etc.

    Hey, live and let live…but I believe Jesus is all for standing against aggressors and bullies and standing against evil like Islam.

    Neo LOL 🙂

  84. Josh The Baptist says:

    Bon Jovi never even close to doing another song that good.

  85. Linda Pappas says:


    Tremendous article.

    Oh, that we would all bow our heads in humble adoration while standing in the gap and not minimize the many different forms of persecution that belies each and every one of us. Working out our own salvation with fear and trembling knowing that we too could fall and be taken captive just as easily and when we least expect it.

  86. Ixtlan says:

    “I wouldn’t have gotten my head cut off, I’d have died in a hail of gunfire”.

    Or they would have. It is just to fight when the cause is just.

  87. Steve Wright says:

    A couple of you sound like an old Eddie Murphy joke. Where he mocked guys who would claim crazy stuff like “Man, if I was a slave. Screw that, Master would say yo bail that hay, I’d say Master…”xq#@” – then I’d get in my Lincoln and drive off”

    As far as America or other non-Islamic nations….they will never “come driving down our streets”….the issue is one of you going down THEIR streets as slowly but surely they settle and take over and control more and more so-called “no-go” zones – ignoring the laws of the land (and Constitution) and living by de facto sharia

    To answer a question on the board. There is a difference between dying as an American (who also may or may not be a Christian) for freedom and country, and dying as a martyr solely for one’s faith. Is there really a question that if evil rolled up on American’s shores all of the Christians are mandated to surrender? Just because the evil is not a communist or fascist totalitarianism but comes in a pagan religion?

  88. Jim says:

    “There is a difference between dying as an American (who also may or may not be a Christian) for freedom and country, and dying as a martyr solely for one’s faith.”

    Well said. I would add defensive use of force to protect loved one.

    Regarding no-go zones, every city has hoods that are unsafe to visit. Back in 2000 I was surrounded in broad daylight in the street. I hit the gas and the waters parted. God bless the poor souls who have to live there.

  89. Ixtlan says:

    For goodness sakes Steve! History teaches us to never say never. Hence the necessity of the 2nd amendment and the full freedom for every law abiding American to bear arms, including weapons that are designed primarily for combat use.

    Sometimes dying for country and dying for Christ can be a mixed formula; rarely is our motive completely singular.

  90. Jim says:


    Americans will never give up our guns. (I don’t adhere to never say never) 🙂

  91. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, I sold insurance largely in the Los Angeles area and had more than one occasion of being in a “no-white” zone. One client’s store burned to the ground during the King riots. (And a couple other were very much threatened) And I too grieve for the many people unable to leave areas controlled by gang warfare and violence. I do think these Islamic enclaves are a different issue though…and a deliberate strategy…far different from simply various ethnic/immigrant areas that America has seen for over 100 years….My brother lived in Diamond Bar for 20+ years and today you can’t read most of the signs anymore (in English). I’m from Glendale which is a town that Armenians have been immigrating to for decades. However, in both these cases the towns are very much still under the authority and laws of the land And one is certainly safe to shop and visit them.


    I guess I should never say never, that is true. However, it is because of the 2nd Amendment and a host of other reasons I wrote that the idea of ISIS cruising down our streets like they are in other nations at present is a very very unlikely proposition. As far as the mixed formula…I hear you but in the end I still think it would be an act of dying for freedom and not dying FOR Christ. Even as Christ may be the motivator for one’s actions. People died saying “No king but Jesus” but they were not fighting the Revolution for Jesus, but for freedom. That’s my differentiation.

  92. Steve Wright says:

    Americans will never give up our guns.
    I agree 100%. My concern though is the continual election of those hellbent on finding a way to accomplish the same thing indirectly. I imagine a continued attack on ammo though pure political power (not actual legislation).

    A majority of Americans gladly gave over their health to the system, and the few of us crying the warnings are going to be proven right, even as already we are seeing it played out before us. Half our prayer requests seem to be medical system in nature when people are sick. Our family doctor now requires a personal credit card on file for every client or you can find another doctor – with a signed authorization they will charge that card as needed and it is up to the patient to fight the system to get reimbursed.

    Just the tip of the iceberg. Lots of people I know can’t even find the doctor they need…even with a credit card.

    All that to say, if people will let the beast control their health freedom…guns sure can’t be too far behind

  93. Ixtlan says:

    I get where you coming from Steve, and thanks for your further response. When we do the work of justice, we do the work of Christ. The ideal of a just war brings with it the ideal of fighting for the shalom of the people. We need to look at social justice from a holistic perspective, which understandably will take many people, including myself, outside of our comfort zones. If we think that social justice is attempting to bring peace without considering what commitment might be required to maintain it, then we are really kidding ourselves and could be in a position of trying to treat a wound with a band aid when it really requires stiches.

  94. Steve Wright says:

    Good word @101 Ixtlan

  95. A Copt says:


    Just a few clarifications:

    a) Copts don’t resemble the Orthodox, the are Orthodox. There’s no such thing as “Coptics”. When people say the “Coptic Church” they are talking about “the Coptic Orthodox Church”, there didn’t used to be Catholic and Protestant confessions in Egypt, they now also use the adjective Coptic -which simply means Egyptian. We are all brothers in Christ. All Egyptian Christians are now referred to as “Copts”.

    b) I am shocked that people would be trying to figure out if they were “in Christ” when they were confessing the name of the Lord at their deaths. Even if you believe they are wrong in their faith or practices, do you think our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, is going to be upset with them for not having a fullness of knowledge?

    Let’s have more love and prayer toward one another.

    pray for me.

  96. Bob says:

    This thread has now degraded to a discussion on gun control and such.

    I will add this:

    Recently in the news there is a report of a “road-rage” shooting in Vegas. Well that turned out to be only partially true. The victim’s family may have at first told a conflicting story and then came straight. Apparently the “road-rage” victim’s went home, her son git his gun and went looking for the car and owner who had dissed them.

    The three eventually ended up in a parking lot exchanging gun fire with the woman getting killed in the process. Sadly this didn’t have to happen at all. The incident was over and yet the two seem to have escalated it by going after the offender.

    What does this have to do with Christians being beheaded?

    Humanity is full of evil actions.

    Obviously gun control would not have stopped the Christians from be murdered. But would it have stopped the Vegas shoot out?

    Back on track this thread is about evil men and actions!

  97. Babylon's Dread says:

    In a nation that is promoting and defending gay marriage I can never say … America will never do _______________ the power of changing minds is shocking.

    We just might do anything.

    Hence gay marriage, I have decided and I cannot relent. This is nothing less than an all out assault on our covenant self-revealing God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a corrupting of the imago Dei beyond description. If gay marriage be true marriage then we absolutely must determine our theology from the revelation of man. I am vexed beyond breath.

    Maybe it is time we settled for a smaller market share.

    Bye Bye Dread

  98. Jim says:

    I think it’s apples and oranges. I’m assuming most people obtain insurance from their employers, and don’t perceive a direct effect from the ACA.

    A conservative estimate puts us at about 100 million gun owners. If we assume that half are Fudds, were still talking about 50 million strong willed people.

    I agree with your back door “legislation” theory, last year with Russian 7N6, and currently with M855.

    I truly believe that attempted confiscation would lead to revolution, and I’m confident that politicians are aware of this.

  99. Jim says:


    Recently, not in the news, someone hit someone with a hammer, and the victim died.

  100. Michael says:

    A Copt,

    Thank you for that clarification .

  101. Joe says:

    I think im with Alex on this one. Instead of a fire fight. Jesus said to flee. So i would bolt, and make a run for it. I would rather take 3-4 ak47’s bullets in the back, then give my head to be sawn off with a dull steak knife, while alive. But thats just me.

  102. Steve Wright says:

    This thread has now degraded to a discussion on gun control and such.
    Bob. that is not a degrading. Others openly asked how they would react if put in the position of our brothers and sisters in Egypt or the Middle East. The challenge with the question is that America is NOT one of those nations.

    Once more as often is the case, the dual aspects of earthly citizen and heavenly citizen come into play.

    We are in a unique historical position in time and place…as well as challenges. Differentiating our role as citizens of a free nation, and “not of this world” will be an important role for church leaders….

    I certainly don’t hesitate to tell people Jesus does not expect Christians to sit back and watch your family raped and murdered in your own house under the guise of loving your enemies and turning the other cheek….I don’t think He expects an entire nation to either if that ever became the case…

  103. Bob says:


    While I am not for gun control in the most liberal sense, your argument is a red herring.

    We don’t have media show after media show demonstrating the use of hammers beating people. Even Lizzie Borden got tried and convicted BTW.

  104. Anne says:

    Truly wondering where in NT does it say it is ok to retaliate if one ‘s cause is just? What is the standard biblically in determing whether a cause is just? Can Christians justify the inevitable loss of civilian lives as unfortunate collateral damage, a necessary evil?

  105. Steve Wright says:

    Anne, are you talking about waging a war overseas or about the 2nd Amendment. Given the flow of this discussion I can’t be sure. Retaliate, civilian seem to suggest the former…but cause suggests otherwise…..

  106. We all die – all death is tragic, whether in your sleep or having your head cut off. Death was not meant to be. This is a good reason to observe Ash Wednesday as we take a moment to reflect on our own mortality.

    I remember 3 years ago our pastor was incapacitated and could attend but not officiate over the taking of the ashes – so it fell to me to do it. In the line was my wife and my granddaughter. Let me tell you that is one sobering moment to place the mark of the cross on their foreheads and to tell them “Remember that you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

  107. Anne says:

    Steve – in either case. How can we support violence, retaliation, military or otherwise, even the death penalty, in light of the NT?

  108. Michael says:

    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”
    (Romans 13:1–7 ESV)

  109. Anne says:

    Thanks, Michael.

  110. Michael says:


    For further clarity…this speaks of the role of the state.
    If individual Christian conscience demands pacifism, that is well within the framework of orthodoxy.

  111. Alex says:

    Jim said, “I truly believe that attempted confiscation would lead to revolution, and I’m confident that politicians are aware of this.”

    Yes, it would…which is why the Obama-ites will continue to try and erode gun rights one small increment at a time…if we let them.

    The whole “frog in the pot” analogy

  112. Jim says:


    You have quoted the only passage in the NT that I seriously question, regarding inspiration.

    Paul is talking to Roman Christians about Nero, or possibly Claudius. How could a Roman Christian read that without saying, “that’s not true”?

    Nero could be replaced with 1000 names of completely corrupt rulers. I believe God sovereignty directs the affairs of nations, but the relational aspect between us and our rulers doesn’t ring true. If isis becomes a State (worse has happened), should Christians under their authority expect isis give them approval for doing good?

    I really want to see a pre-Constantine manuscript on this one.

  113. Michael says:


    There are other passages I’d delete before this one… 🙂
    If taken in the entirety of Scripture it doesn’t bother me at all.
    We can protest when the government calls us to do something in opposition to our faith, but otherwise we submit to the sovereignty of God in raising up who He will.

  114. Joe says:

    According to the Obama State Department a few days ago on Chris Matthews. She said we will defeat Isis and defeat terror by giving them jobs……

    I have no hope in this administration. This has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard coming from the White House.

  115. Steve Wright says:

    Anne, Michael already responded but if I saw five men gang-raping a teenage girl at knife-point, and I had a firearm in my possession….what is my Christian responsibility? I can control all five of them with my weapon (and may have to shoot one of them first before I do) but my wife is going to be a widow if I try to step in and simply talk them out of continuing their sin
    There is no suggestion I assume that I should just ignore what is taking place and mind my business.

    To Jim’s point, when I was in India I read the English language newspaper and saw it filled with the most violent of murders – burnings, machete hacking, throwing down wells….every day.

    India makes it almost impossible for a citizen to own a firearm, and there is no constitutional right for them to have one. The laws go back to the mindset of when they were nothing more than a British colony, ruled by their white masters from Europe.

    So now they are a free nation….just not safe.

  116. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, while I believe God is in charge of the world, including the leaders at any given time in history….I see that passage as speaking of human government in general, and not endorsing every madman who might rise to power.

    To this I agree with the Declaration of Independence and the mindset behind that document.

    (No need to take the scissors to your Bible 🙂 )

  117. Jim says:

    Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the passage, interpreted it far too literally, or just have poor comprehension. The way I read it, the declaration of independence was sinful.

    Don’t resist, don’t fear, do good and they will approve of you, and pay the tax they demand.

    (I think someone slipped it in there) 🙂

    Anne, I believe in non aggression, but carry a gun outside of my home. In Steve’s scenario above, they will cease or be shot. This is legal in my state, although my potential personal use of force differs from what my state allows. I would rather be beaten into a life in a wheelchair than to take another life to protect myself, so for me it’s a last resort.

  118. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, do you allow for any civil disobedience to change government? I would fail to see how the Revolution was sinful but the civil rights marches in the 1960s were not by your interpretation…..except for the guns involved in the former…(which I assume is not a sticking point with you)

    But on your interpretation of the text, I’m not sure I see the distinction…since the Bible text sure does not qualify based on firearms… 😉

  119. Michael says:

    Looks like we need to back date Pete, too…

    “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.”
    (1 Peter 2:13–17 ESV)

  120. Jim says:


    I’m referring to the text in Rms, which I struggle with. I’m in favor of all types of civil disobedience. In case you haven’t noticed, I don’t like most of what our govt does.

  121. Jim says:

    Michael, that’s the other one. 🙂 The KJV says, “honor the king”.

  122. Michael says:


    When I see something taught that explicitly and consistently, I have to bow the knee.

    I want to rub out the ones about cussing and drinking… 🙂

  123. Scott says:

    Jim, is there any civil national government currently operating that you do like and prefer over ours? 😉

  124. Jim says:


    Not even close. My problem with the way our govt functions today is that everyone knows that it is broken, but have 100 different ideas about how to fix it, while ignoring the blueprint our founders left for us.

  125. Ixtlan says:

    ” everyone knows that it is broken, but have 100 different ideas about how to fix it, while ignoring the blueprint our founders left for us.”

    Correct. In part because we as a culture are ignorant of classical literature which aids in the ability to think beyond our narrow modernist scope. The founding fathers were conversant in classical literature and they understood the characteristics and end results that different regimes produced.

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