For What It’s Worth: Duane Arnold PhD
For What It’s Worth
We are not the Church Militant… not in the modern understanding of the phrase.
I have been around guns all my life. I am not some bleeding heart liberal. When do we say enough is enough. How many bodies have to be dragged out of churches and classrooms before we say that there is something terribly wrong in the psyche of the nation.
For $167.50 Mark David Chapman legally bought a gun in Hawaii and murdered John Lennon, destroying a lifetime of creative power. Lee Harvey Oswald purchased his through a mail order catalog and destroyed the dreams of a nation. And then Sirhan Sirhan,, and then a sniper targeting Martin Luther King, Jr. But even these deaths do not seem to matter.
We pass over the slaughter of of innocents at a concert in Las Vegas. We contextualize the deaths of Black parishioners in South Carolina and say it’s a hate crime. Meanwhile children and young adults are slaughtered on the streets of Chicago week by week and month by month and we say it’s a community problem.
I’ve had enough.
I’m angry.
I’m angry with legislators who choose NRA money over people’s lives.
I’m angry with a Supreme Court that makes rulings on the Second Amendment in the marble clad security of Washington, DC, as their hands drip with the blood of the innocent.
I’m angry with the evangelical leaders who boast of “packing heat” while they feed the worst instincts of their followers with supposed biblical teaching.
I’m angry with a corrupt President who has never placed himself in harms way for the sake of the country, but promotes lawless and reckless behavior.
It has come to the point that there is blood on all of our hands… and I doubt that it will ever be cleansed. We will be held accountable not merely for sins of commission, but for the sins of omission. We would prefer to look the other way. Have no doubt, we will not be guiltless.
I’m tired of praying for the victims of the latest tragedy…
I’m tired of vigils…
I’m tired of flags at half mast…
I’m sick and tired of writing songs for Michael to sing at remembrance services.
Every follower of Christ needs to make some choices… but I doubt they will.
This is a personal piece. Please do not make use of it to reflect upon our host, Michael…
They can go ahead and reflect on me…it’s time.
I have always opposed gun control for some good reasons.
I realized today as the news of the latest slaughter arrived that because we oppose doing some things we stop believing we can do anything about these tragedies.
We need to have discussions about what we can do, with reasonable gun laws that protect both the right to bear arms and innocent children in church…
Michael
I have probably 15 guns, antique and modern, in my home (many inherited from my father). I’d gladly give them all up in exchange for the life of one child… This is just barbarism.
Duane,
I’m not physically able to use one safely anymore so I got rid of mine.
What I’m wondering is how the hell I accepted the notion (consciously or not) that this is the “price we pay for freedom”.
We have to be able to do something to stop the carnage…
Duane,
could you be more specific as to what “choices” you think christians need to make but probably won’t?
Somehow not owning guns and being vocal about not needing them doesn’t seem enough. Any suggestions?
And I think we ought to restrict any immigration from the Middle East.
Cuz I am tired of Isis and terror.
Costco,
There is no value in conflating two separate issues.
#newyork
The way they are connected is that we can and should restrict anything on anyone. Yet when Isis melted down in New York, I saw no such article here. Just when it’s a Texan that does this.
I am going to moderate this thread with a very heavy hand.
Do not conflate this subject with any other simply because it’s popular to do so to keep division alive.
This has ceased to be an issue of left or right…
In other words, don’t make it a subject that rubs the wrong way. Got it! It is your blog.
Costco,
That is just a little beyond rude.
This has nothing to do with the fact that this happened in Texas and I find it reprehensible that you would say so.
Don’t push it…or you’ll regret it.
I say…tighter gun control. And immigration restriction.
Costco is now under moderation.
This isn’t going to turn into a food fight.
Duane, if you have 15 guns and you have not made plans to turn them all in to the police first thing in the morning, I don’t think you have any voice in the conversation about choices other Christians need to make.
All my kids have guns and none of them are planning on killing anyone except the a-holes like today’s shooter would he endeavor to harm their family.
What never comes up in these conversations is why we even allow these people to exist. Most are in the system or have long deep seated issues that the authorities know about and we do nothing.
I’m hoping we can be reasonable .
What can we do?
What actions can we take that might stop these slaughters before they happen?
I hate evil. Murder is evil and sin.
Yet In my opinion, this post goes too far. Too many extreme statements, too much worldly emotion directed at the wrong targets. Too much knee jerk blame the NRA, blame the Supreme Court, blame the representatives, blame you, blah blah blah. Politically liberal talking points.
I’m tired, too. Tired of fallen man’s fallen solutions that perpetually fail because they never address the true problem. And they never will, because the problem of evil is not political, or cultural, or psychosocial, or societal. The problem of evil is spiritual.
Good and just men pass good and just laws to restrain evil. God in His grace allows laws to keep order to some extent. But external laws will never restrain internal evil.
The problem of evil is spiritual, and the only answer is a spiritual one, and the only spiritual answer is Jesus.
Therefore, the choice Christians must make is whether they will address the true problem in their civil discourse, or perpetuate fallen man’s solutions. Choose to courageously identify the true, spiritual problem — sin — and courageously present the true, spiritual solution -Jesus Christ.
I think we do a pretty good job of presenting the Gospel here on a regular basis.
People of faith disagree on how to address these issues…. I always hope that people of faith can reason together to find better ways.
I’m usually dissapointed.
Donner: “…politically liberal talking points.”
Perhaps, yet on the other hand, your talking points seem simplistically spiritual. Yes, I agree that the overarching problem is sin and that Jesus is the solution. Most on this blog would agree. Now, without using christianeze, how would apply these truths to the problem at hand?
I’m not sure what can be done. I’m not saying nothing should change…
Somehow we need to forge a bipartisan view — things all sides can agree on. What about restricting or banning guns for the mentally ill, for example? There must be others, but I’m not knowledgable enough.
‘Cause I’m telling ya — our country won’t survive without all of us pulling together — on this issue and the other biggies.
Bipartisanship was the norm in national politics until the last 20-30 years.
i posted my thoughts over on open blogging, won’t fan the flames here, except to say that the problem we’re dealing with is a societal one and, if we waste time and energy on guns as THE problem – we’re missing what is really wrong now
Captan Kevin, you suggest applying these truths to the problem at hand.
I ask you, what is the problem at hand?
I read a quote from a short story a couple of years ago, and it is one of insight and clout. It, in my opinion, is a game changer.
“Lasting change cannot be forced, only inspired.”
I have no emotional energy to argue or dispute. The loss of life in Texas is another blow to my heart and mind after a difficult week. I feel profound sadness. The polarized responses depress me in a manner that the losses of this week do not. In the fog of this past week’s tragedies in my school, I had the opportunity to be salt and light–despite my deep sense of loss. I choose to emphasize grace and charity.
that’s all I can contribute tonight.
They are studying the Vegas shooter’s brain to look for answers. Does anyone here wonder why that guy did what he did? For all of the gun control in the world… Anders Brevik.
California has more laws going into effect soon. I have ears in the rural community. No one is going to turn in high cap mags and so called assault rifles that were previously grandfathered in but will not be illegal. Laws passed in 2000 didn’t stop the San Bernardino massacre, though they “should” have.
The Texas shooter was dishonorably discharged from the air force. A NICS background check would have failed him. Private transfers, the so called “gunshow loophole” are legal in Texas. They’ve been illegal in California for a long time, yet my anti gun mother purchased a shotgun at a garage sale a few years ago (illegal), then loaned it to a friend (now illegal). Funny, since she used to accuse me of being a scoff law, but other then briefly being in possession of a high cap mag, I wasn’t.
So what’s the real issue here?
Even after pending money and time to take defensive firearms classes (pistol, carbine, shotgun— I actually think this should be required, and I took the same shotgun class by the guy who trained Marine Recon), I could care less about owning guns at this point. Giving them up isn’t going to save lives.
Duane et al…I can hear you. Yesterday with and friend and I walking in the colorful woods around Chattanooga, TN, and accidentally came across the news story while trying to get my Iphone camera set up to take a picture. I too have become tired of one shooting after another, and feeling almost numb to one tragedy after another.
#5 Richard
Owing to my work, I’ve been in numerous gun shows over the last twenty years. I have been continually appalled by what I have seen through the years. While I don’t believe there are any definitive solutions, closing the gun show loophole would be a start. Additionally, required background checks, required safety courses and numerous other common sense solutions could be implemented. I have no illusions about this. There is no “magic” remedy.
As Christians, I think there is a need to speak against the glorification of “gun culture”. This is not political. We should simply align ourselves with the values of the Christ of the Gospels.
#15 MLD
A ridiculous statement not worthy of reply or discussion. This is not an issue for your brand of “argument as sport”.
Duane, argument by dismissal is your common tactic but that’s OK. An individual owning 15 weapons is contributing to the gun culture in this country.
And 12 of them are 18th century flintlocks… and 3 (inherited) are in a safe with trigger locks and registered… It helps if you know what you’re talking about before jumping to erroneous conclusions.
Hi Duane, good writing and thoughts! I too am angry also, in addition to becoming numb. Friend yesterday, after informing him of the shooting, said “well, we are in the End Times!”
Yes, but….
Does that kind of statement help? What about in the meantime? And yes, as another commenter posted earlier, it is a spiritual problem.
Yes, but…
What do we do with those who are in pain and have sudden loss because someone’s else’s life is out of kilter and decided to rampage? What about the few guys who seem to think that having the most powerful and well-armed house on the block enhances their masculinity (i.e., they just have to have the biggest guns – similar to the person who has to have the fastest car, but biggest pickup truck, the biggest muscles, etc)? What about those CHRISTIANS out there who seem to fear the government and think that Jesus calls us to defend ourselves with force against persecution?
Duane, see, this is my point and the reason nothing gets done – everyone has an excuse as to why this situation does not apply to themselves but to “those other people out there.” Go ahead, exempt yourself.
Until we do something about the bad guys, this is just textbook kind of talk. Would people be less traumatized if he was going after his wife and barricaded the doors to the small church and set it on fire killing those people?
#31 Dan
I agree with your observations. It’s a culture that certain believers have co-opted and tried to baptize. In my opinion, there needs to be a realignment with New Testament values, rather than trying to sanctify certain portions of our national culture…
Duane (33) … yes, and for the life of me I don’t see where in the Bible we are called to defend ourselves with force against persecution. And maybe I am repeating a stereotype, but I think that kind of belief finds more adherents her in the Bible Belt (aka Deep South) than elsewhere, but isn’t unique to this area.
#34 Dan
Unfortunately, it’s not limited to one area any longer. That view has a large number of adherents here in Indiana, Michigan, Ohio and Illinois. Michael has talked before about the Pacific Northwest. One only needs to read the NT and then see how believers conducted themselves under real persecution (not imagined) in the first three centuries. I’m convinced that this view of defending ourselves with force against persecution is not only outside of the bounds of Scripture, but something far, far more troubling…
Duane (35)..
I do recall now Michael alluding to that belief and its followers in OR. It is scary indeed. In my mind, I am more leery of home-grown gunmen/terrorists than I am of ISIS or Islamic terrorists carrying out attacks in the U.S. Not sure why some media outlets have to focus on whether the latest massacre is done by ISIS. Dang it, someone shot and killed a bunch of people! Are we supposed to be more fearful that a massacre was done by an ISIS soldier than a rogue, disturbed, disgruntled American citizen?
#36 Dan
Agreed…
I wish there was a simple answer like gun control.
Unfortunately there is not.
And we are now so blind that we race to social media to make sure our political side gets represented first.
It’s sick. 27 people died in a small church very much like mine Sunday. Them enemy is alive and well. I wish he would wear blue or red. That would make the warfare much easier.
He doesn’t. It is one of his ploys.
#38 Josh
I thought about you when the news came through…
I’m very conservative politically and pretty much a die heart republican but I will gladly see the second amendment completely dissolved. Gun control will never work unless all guns are completely removed. I know that will never work in our nation and this is a minority view. However, if things get much worse which I anticipate they will, I may take my family and move to another country where guns are completely outlawed.
My parish is small, maybe 50 people on a Sunday morning. I know them all. I was imagining which 27 of them would be gone…. which of the elderly ladies, which of the little kids, who among the teenagers. Maybe my pastor. Maybe my own relatives.
Can’t bare to think about it.
#41 Xenia
Through the years I’ve been the supply pastor at probably 25 small parishes like that one. I couldn’t help but to have the same thought. Some families will bear the scars for generations.
A German researcher has said that 100% of all of the shooters in these terrible events were on Xanax or Prozac or some other similar drug. It is the proliferation of these drugs that are putting the rest of us at risk. Not the guns but the people behind the guns are the problem. Big Pharma is to blame in reality. Of course you won’t hear of this in any media source.
Apparently if a patient goes off their medication they can get deeply depressed and they don’t have the facility to think through their actions with consciousness that tells them it is wrong. This is an effect of the drug withdrawal.
I would share the German article but I can’t seem to locate it just now. But I do recall reading it. If what it says is true than we have a big problem in society around the globe because these drugs are being pushed by profit driven Pharma.
Soon after this article was posted last night, people started writing responses to it on Facebook and here.
The responses fell along the same binary political lines they always do.
Is it not possible to think outside those boxes?
Is there truly nothing we can possibly do?
Does true freedom depend on me having the right to own a gun?
Why does this happen so often here compared to other developed nations?
Don’t we owe it to the lost to at least ask the questions?
“Is it not possible to think outside those boxes?”
OK, let’s think outside the box. Violent people will never change and will remain violent. Let’s put them away at the first sign – for life. We can empty the prisons but releasing the non violent criminals (house arrest, ankle bracelets) and repopulate the prisons with the violent guys.
If the reports are true and this guy was given a dishonorable discharge for domestic abuse, he should have been shipped off to prison … for life and this shooting would not have happened.
and if we sent all of these violent guys to prison at the first sign of violent behavior, it would allow Christians to do their vocation of visiting those in prison.
“The responses fell along the same binary political lines they always do.”
The article was along binary lines.
Josh,
I don’t think so.
Before I get accused of being a “liberal”… I received my first gun as a gift from my grandfather at age 5.
I received many more as he built his own guns and made his own ammunition.
By the age of seven I was celebrated in the family for being able to shoot off the head of a digger squirrel at a hundred yards.
I ruined everything by deciding I liked squirrels and thought they should enjoy life with intact heads.
I digress.
I’ve always opposed gun control, here and elsewhere.
This last tragedy and Duane’s article woke me up…I had decided at some point that mass killings were just part off the price for freedom…that there was nothing that could be done.
There has to be…
Gun Control is the political talking point of the left. It is not the answer.
The right has been posting their talking points all morning too. They are also clueless.
MLD,
Perhaps we start with addressing the mental health crisis in this country before we warehouse everyone in prison?
Michael – OK, let’s wait until we solve the nations mental illness problem before we do anything. I offered up a good solution – get violent people off the street today.
As Duane justified why he can have 15 weapons in his home while telling other Christians they have tough decisions to make (and he predicts they won’t) – you want to wait until we cure the mental health crisis?
Tell me, you don’t think this shooter should have been in prison for beating his family? I say it’s a start.
#MLD
“As Duane justified why he can have 15 weapons in his home while telling other Christians they have tough decisions to make (and he predicts they won’t)”
Good posturing, but short on the facts…
MLD,
The problem is that we have usually determined that the length of sentence depends on the severity of the crime.
We also hold to the value of rehabilitation.
I don’t know how we parse all of this in a just manner.
I do know that there are some very sick people on the streets here who need help.
Perhaps we need to put all these options on the table …
Michael – this is funny – we have many left leaning groups who want to abolish the 1st amendment – both free speech (by labeling everything hate speech) and freedom of religion, (by taxing the churches to shut them up) – and those who wish to abolish the 2nd amendment and you are worried about sentencing laws?
There is no rehabilitation of sexual predators nor violent people – they just go underground for a while.
Here is what will happen with tougher gun laws – the bad guy will not check gun laws and will obtain his weapon – they guy who was the hero yesterday who stopped and shot the shooter – he will become a criminal if he doesn’t turn in his weapon.
MLD,
I strongly believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
I don’t want to abolish the second amendment.
I do want mass killings to end.
Perhaps the first question that needs to be asked is why this country has so many of these incidents compared to other developed nations.
As Duane points out in todays lead article, perhaps we need God given dreams and visions to enable some solutions to these issues.
All I know is that I can no longer accept children slaughtered in a church as collateral damage to greater good.
Michael – “perhaps we need God given dreams and visions to enable some solutions to these issues.”
I will end with this – while we wait for such dreams and visions, I say we act immediately. Not all drunk drivers get in accidents – but we take them off the street anyway. Let’s do the same with violent people … then look for the dreams and vision.
Often on this blog, when there is a distressing situation, it will be said that we shouldn’t take care of problem A unless we first take care of problem B. Problem B is often very nebulous, such as (speaking of churches) “we need to clean our own house first,” etc. “B” is usually something that can’t be solved in any concrete way and there is no way to measure when B has been satisfactorily solved so we can move on to fixing “A.”
Sometimes you just have to act on what is in front of you.
And I agree w/ MLD that if one is going to write a thoughtful article about Christians rethinking gun-keeping, the author of said article should be willing to get rid of his own collection. Everyone has their reasons to hang onto their guns. I think there are good reasons to own firearms, but there is no reason whatsoever for a civilian to own an assault weapon.
But gun-lovers will say that I am misusing the term “assault weapon” and will try to explain to the stoopid “liberal” the differentiation between different types of weapons, blah blah blah, as if that wins the argument. Any gun allows you to kill 20-50 people in a few minutes- give it its own name. Call it a “people killer.” Get rid of them, all of them. They do not belong in civilized society. Let the people who whine they have a right to their hobby take up stamp collecting instead.
#57 Xenia
Yes. We can find a thousand reasons not to deal with what is right in front of our nose…
#58 Xenia
Again, full disclosure… 12 18th century flintlock firearms from the time of the revolutionary war, my father’s Shotgun for shooting trap, along with his two Winchester lever action deer guns. The last three items are in a safe with trigger locks.
I own no assault rifles… unless I am miraculously transported back to colonial Boston and see the redcoats coming…
Duane, my first paragraph was muddled. I started out talking about your collection and ended it talking about assault weapons.
But setting aside your museum pieces, everyone has their excuse to keep their guns…. even you!
I’m not against all personal gun ownership.
My vision is poor and carpal tunnel makes it likely that I would do more harm than good if I had to use one, so I got rid of them.
I do suggest that perhaps we should at least regulate them as much as cars…
I also have to wonder…I grew up in a gun soaked culture where this sort of violence was unthinkable.
What happened?
#61 Xenia
One of the reasons I sent back my life membership in the NRA many years ago is that they refused to take a place at the table and to make the differentiation between high capacity military assault styled weapons and those used by hunters, trap shooters etc. That would be a first practical step in dealing with this issue…
“I also have to wonder…I grew up in a gun soaked culture where this sort of violence was unthinkable.
What happened?”
Same here. There is something about this age, spiritually, psychologically, and culturally that has opened a chasm of differences that no-one wants to really resolve. We jump to our chosen extremes and then some nutcase slips out of the their groove, grabs a gun and tries to settle the score.
“Clearly I remember
Pickin’ on the boy
Seemed a harmless little f*ck
But we unleashed a lion
Gnashed his teeth
And bit the recess lady’s breast
How could I forget
And he hit me with a surprise left
My jaw left hurting
Dropped wide open
Just like the day
Oh, like the day I heard
Daddy didn’t give affection, no!
And the boy was something that mommy wouldn’t wear
King Jeremy The Wicked
Ruled his world”
~ Jeremy, Jeffrey Allen Ament, Eddie Jerome Vedder
[Verse]
E A
There’s somethin’ happenin’ here.
E A
What it is ain’t exactly clear.
E A
There’s a man with a gun over there
E A
A-tellin’ me I’ve got to beware.
[Chorus]
E
I think it’s time we stop.
D
Children, what’s that sound?
A C
Everybody look what’s goin’ down.
E A E A
[Verse]
E A
There’s battle lines bein’ drawn.
E A
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.
E A
Young people speakin’ their minds
E A
A-gettin’ so much resistance from behind.
[Chorus]
E
I think it’s time we stop.
D
Hey, what’s that sound?
A C
Everybody look what’s goin’ down.
E A E A
[Verse]
E A G
What a field day for the heat.
E A G
A thousand people in the street
E A G
Singin’ songs and a-carryin’ signs
E A G
Mostly sayin’ hooray for our side.
[Chorus]
E
It’s time we stop.
D
Hey, what’s that sound?
A C
Everybody look what’s goin’ down.
E A E A
[Verse]
E A
Paranoia strikes deep.
E A
Into your life it will creep.
E A
It starts when you’re always afraid.
E A
Step out of line, the men come and take you away.
[Chorus/Outro]
E
You better stop.
E D
Hey, what’s that sound?
A C
Everybody look what’s goin’..
E
You better stop.
D
Hey, what’s that sound?
A
Everybody look what’s goin’..
E
You better stop.
D
Now, what’s that sound?
A
Everybody look what’s goin’..
E
You better stop.
D
Children, what’s that sound? (fade out)
A
Everybody look what’s goin
Am/Am7 D7 Am/Am7 D
Am/Am7 D7 Am/Am7 D
It’s been a long time comin’
Am/Am7 D7 Am/Am7 D
It’s goin’ to be a long time gone.
Am G6 Fmaj7
And it appears to be a long,
Am G6 Fmaj7
Appears to be a long,
Am G6 D
Appears to be a long
Am D7 C Am G D Am D
Time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
Turn, turn any corner.
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
Hear, you must hear what the people say.
Am D Am/Am7 D
You know there’s something that’s goin’ on around here,
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
The surely, surely, surely won’t stand the light of day.
Am G6 Fmaj7
And it appears to be a long,
Am G6 Fmaj7
Appears to be a long,
Am G6 D
Appears to be a long
Am D7 C Am G D Am D
Time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
Speak out, you got to speak out against the madness,
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
You got to speak your mind,
Am/Am7 D
If you dare.
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
But don’t no don’t now try to get yourself elected
Am/Am7 D Am/Am7 D
If you do you had better cut your hair.
Am G6 Fmaj7
Cause it appears to be a long,
Am G6 Fmaj7
Appears to be a long,
Am G6 D
Appears to be a long
Am D7 C Am G D Am D
Time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.
Am/Am7 D7 Am/Am7 D
It’s been a long time comin’
Am/Am7 D7 Am/Am7 D
It’s goin’ to be a long time gone.
Am/Am7 D
But you know,
Am/Am7 D
The darkest hour is always
Am/Am7 D
Always just before the dawn.
Am G6 Fmaj7
And it appears to be a long,
Am G6 Fmaj7
Appears to be a long,
Am G6 D
Appears to be a long
Am D7 C Am G D Am D
Time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.
G-Man
I knew you’d get the reference…
Duane
<3
bah!!! totally different context!!!
I have been on the planet almost 62 years.
Never, once, have I had the need for a gun, ever.
To the depths of my soul, I have never given myself the permission to take another’s life.
No one who claims to be a follower of Jesus can make space for the first post-eden sin of mankind, the murder of a brother.
For my musician friends, I’ll be playing these tonight in my studio, join with me in playing, singing and reflecting.
My soul will join you as well in these songs.
( |o )====::: – so if the hero who shot the shooter had been able to kill him after he fired the first shot then you would say that was a bad thing?
To Michael’s question about what has changed? G’s comment above – that evil is good and good is evil.
If you own a gun, you are making space for killing another creature.
Stop bullsh*tting yourself.
If you want to get your adrenaline going in target practice, team up with another person, get bows and arrows and apples, put one on each other’s heads, stand back to back, count and walk 100 paces, turn, then have at it.
Otherwise, go use your time on the planet for the Kingdom of Jesus, be productive and help others and enrich lives.
But what has really changed is immediate consequences for bad behavior – be it from the neighbor lady coming up and cuffing you one for endangering others, or parent saying “wait until your father comes home” or getting swats at school.
My schools never had to have parental permission to give me swats. When I was at school, they were my parents – when I was running around the neighborhood, the neighbor lady was my parent – and if not them, the cops were my parents.
People today have not grown up with accountability and if they have had any, it was not immediate.
rarely do I agree with mld, but I agree with @73
I used to live in some tough neighborhoods. Having a gun in the house probably saved my wife and kids lives during a home invasion robbery.
I’m tired of guns being blamed on what is obviously a larger problem.
( |o )====::: @ #4 – yes, someone in the church should have stood up and declared that to the shooter yesterday ” be productive and help others and enrich lives.”
Dumbass church goers should have listened to you.
emotionally driven nonsense…..
Even though I am anti-gun I think the man who shot the murderer ia a hero and I think the guy who chased him is a hero, too.
MLD,
See 4 Gospels, Jesus’ red letter words, you might start with The Sermon on The Mount.
…then get back to us.
“Having a gun in the house probably saved my wife and kids lives during a home invasion robbery.”
Ok, expand on that, pstrmike, exactly what did you do, because you use a qualifying word “probably”.
Tell the story.
…and do you still have the firearm?
…do you practice?
How do you explain to your children that you, as a representative of Jesus Christ, a pastor of His chosen community have a part of yourself that you continue to train to take another person’s life, that you override your impulse for love of your brother, however misguided he might be, and allow yourself enough darkness to have an act of killing reserved for him?
I’m sincerely seriously trying to understand.
So G, if your home were being broken into by the bad guys and you have no protection – do you call the police? Do you hire someone (the policeman to break the sermon on the mount’s red letters?
How is that moral? When you call the cops, do you ask them to send a non Christian cop to do the dirty work?
The state is authorized by God to bear the sword…
Should my loved ones (or my cats) be in danger, I would respond accordingly.
I’m not sure that is a breach of Christian ethics…
“I’m not sure that is a breach of Christian ethics…”
But G is sure that it is and he is out to bind the conscience of the believer.
this subject is getting a lot of traction here this morning – haven’t yet read everyone’s thoughts, but Dr. Duane has put the spotlight on something that does need eliminating, THE GUN SHOWS
I’ve never been to one and, i suspect half the folk there are simply gun aficionados, like cigar or car aficionados – a macho pursuit? BUT the other half are people with issues – to put it politely. Now this won’t eliminate bad guys getting weapons any more than laws against selling drugs keep people from using them… but it sure seems to me that gun shows are not a good idea today
all the guns in my family were either inherited, purchased from dealers who do the necessary background checks before releasing the weapon (they are weapons ultimately) to the buyer and anyone who carries has a permit and the training to do so… and they are very good marksmen 🙂
with the new proliferation of wolves, grizzlies and crazy people in the great out of doors, if you enjoy the wide open spaces of the west, you need protection when out and about – cougars sneak up on you from behind, so a gun is minimally useful there…
someone mentioned that no one should be able to purchase a gun without training in their use and safety, yielding a license to operate? seems a very intelligent idea to me – a law worth passing…
Sorry, but all the hypotheticals remind me of a Vietnam era Selective Service Board trying to trip up someone applying for CO status…
Are you opposed to this war?
Are you opposed to all wars?
What if your were threatened?
What if your was was threatened?
What if a little child was threatened?
It’s an interesting process, but I’m not sure it addresses the fact that we have had the four worst mass shooting in US history in the last year, with assault rifles being the weapon of choice.
I’m not going to relive that night any more for you than I already have. Having spent considerable time with Quakers, I understand the different forms of violence….. such as your comments @74. That tells me you are not ready to be trustworthy in this conversation.
I took a vow to honor and protect my wife which includes my family. I don’t go looking for trouble, but on that night someone intended to harm us. Justice does not condone our deaths to satisfy a bloodlust of someone else. Loving our brother does not mean we give them full license to violate us.
Without going into a full theological exposition, which would only create more of an argument, it is a spiritual principle that we engage in darkness to attain light.
That’s all you’re going to get from me for now.
#87
“your life”
“your wife”
“But G is sure that it is and he is out to bind the conscience of the believer.”
What G propounds is nothing more than traditional Quaker/Mennonite theology.
We need everyone at the table for this…
Dan from Georgia observed, “…yes, and for the life of me I don’t see where in the Bible we are called to defend ourselves with force against persecution…”
the (insert noun of choice) who indescriminately and cold bloodedly killed the folk Sunday? is that a description of persecution for the Faith?
Personally, I think in the debate regarding “situational” Christian Ethics, that there is a vast difference in instigating violence, retaliation, and defending someones’ life. Does turning the other cheek mean that someone can injure, maim, or kill my family or my neighbor that I should open the front door let the person to continue his rampage? That thinking to me would be preposterous. If someone enters my home threatens me, my wife, cat, dog, be assured I will respond, and in a manner that meets the specific threat leveled.
No, the traditional Quaker/Mennonite theology was not to bind me and how I handle a situation – but allows them to freely do what they want.
G doesn’t want me to do what I want – he wants me to do what he wants.
“G doesn’t want me to do what I want – he wants me to do what he wants.”
Don’t we all?
“Don’t we all?”
No, if you don’t want to own a gun, well God Bless you.
If I do, well God bless me – and don’t tell me what I can own.
reading Xenia’s examples of problems ‘A’ and ‘B’ … thinking…
i’m not so sure that gun control isn’t just as nebulous as is crazies control…
but two things seem to be gelling for me: one is the need to eliminate gun shows as we know them and the other is to make it illegal for a private citizen to have in their possession any gun that fits the description of “assault” – who does Joe Blow need to assault anyway?
thing is, if you are deranged enough to think you need to commit mass murder, you’re going to circumvent laws – period … so?
So it seems to me that problem ‘A’ IS the crazies among us … dunnno, tho, do i?
I repeat… I’m not sure any of this addresses the fact that we have had the four worst mass shootings in US history in the last year, with assault rifles being the weapon of choice.
It is not a hypothetical… it is a reality.
As to Quaker theology…
Woolman and his contemporaries were against serving in the English army during the French Indian War. Some of the Quakers served any way. I am not aware that they were against the idea of defending oneself and their families.
There are various forms of pacifism, violence and coercion that Quakers recognize. As many of you know, one size does not fit all.
I was going to write something completely different than this. But, I’m tired.
Why do people need assault weapons?
For eight years I heard militia types claiming that they needed to be armed against the government. Well, folks nothing happened.
Now the same folks are saying they need to be ready for the impending civil war.
Next, we need to be ready for an invasion from outer space.
Incident after incident have correlations. 1 – assault weapons. 2 – some form of mental health or emotional health issues.
Why can’t we address the issue of the mentally ill owning firearms? With my own history, I probably couldn’t get a gun, but I don’t care. There is too much blood being spilt. We only find solutions from sitting down and discussing how to fix it. Quit yelling across the canyon, and build a bridge.
I don’t mind people who live in rural areas having a rifle.
I don’t mind people who live in dangerous parts of town having a simple handgun.
If I had a weapon and could prevent the death of others, I would use that weapon.
I don’t have much respect for a man who won’t protect his family.
I think applications for gun ownership needs to be more carefully vetted.
No assault weapons in the hands of civilians, ever. No weapon that can kill 50 people in the length of time it takes me to type out this post.
But it’s too late. There is no way to get rid of all the tons of weapons that we have in America. Only the good guys (and not most of them) will willingly turn theirs in and none of the bad guys will. It’s a terrible situation, we are stuck with it, and we brought it on ourselves.
#99 David H
Agreed…
#100 Xenia
Agreed. I hope it is not too late. Yet, an assault weapon ban might slow the insanity. Closing the gun show loophole might slow the insanity. Applications might slow the insanity. There is no instant cure…
“No, if you don’t want to own a gun, well God Bless you.
If I do, well God bless me – and don’t tell me what I can own.”
Oh, sure, indeed, you can own any damn thing you want, but my issue is what you intend to do with it.
The moment you are owning something with the stated intent of harming another living thing, especially a human, especially an infant, well, then your “freedom” gets abridged by the Gospel, by the stated intent of God in His long history of giving humanity guidance to humanize us in the light of our post-eden demonstration of barbarism.
God gave Israel the law to civilize them and influence the nations around them.
Jesus fulfilled the law by giving us commandments of grace upon our hearts by His teachings and His living them out in the history recorded in The 4 Gospels.
The focus in this dialog must be about Jesus, His desire, His intent.
Someone address how this at all compliments the goals of Jesus.
If we’re to trust in Jesus, follow Him, emulate Him, be His ambassadors to the world, how does any of this fear based thinking line up with His constant encouragement to “fear not”?
Recently, the number of mentally ill homeless people has exploded in our town. They line the main street with their shopping carts, screaming at cars and babbling to themselves. They camp out in the doorways of local businesses and some camp in a ravine near our church. Most of these people are crazy. They need to be taken off the streets, probably against their wills, and cared for in mental institutions where they can be given decent food, shelter, and medical / psychiatric care. Any one of the crazies from the ravine could invade our parish some Sunday.
So I am actually going to agree with Trump when he says this shooting was a mental health problem. And it is also a gun problem. Both.
The ISIS guys are not crazy in the same sense the Ravine People are crazy. They are fervent believers in a cause and see themselves as soldiers.
#100 – good summation – IMHO
but Michael made an observation that targets the core of this issue, i think: “I also have to wonder…I grew up in a gun soaked culture where this sort of violence was unthinkable.
What happened?”
in the back of my head continuously rattles the familiar prophetic description of the world before our Lord returns…
from 2Tim 3….
“But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.”
maybe that last statement should give us hope for the Church to right itself now?
G,
“Oh, sure, indeed, you can own any damn thing you want, but my issue is what you intend to do with it.”
I can assure you that 99.9% of gun owners, and that would include owners of assault weapons have never murdered anyone. So if 99.9% are law abiding and have no intent at evil and harm, what are you saying?
Duane,
For the record, I am a Conscientious Objector, my testimony before the draft board was based on The Gospels and that, as a follower of Jesus, I must not kill, nor bear arms, nor support others in doing so.
I think MLD made a very good point up above. If our conscience won’t allow us to personally use a gun in self defense or the defense of others, are we going to call the police and let them use their weapons on our behalf so our hands stay clean?
#103 – the same thing has happened up here in our small town (Forbes has listed it as a great place to retire)… these poor people are deranged and unable to function in the communities
it is a heart break – there, but for the grace of God, go i or one of my children… they aren’t freaks of nature, to a great extent our social engineering of the last 70 years has made them misfits and we should be responsible for them… one problem, of course, is the ACLU that shut down so many of the institutions, good and bad ones, that did so
The jihadists, on the other hand, are in my view demonic …and i’m pretty much convinced that our nation has done much to nurture them also …. sigh
#106 G-Man
There were four of us from Shiloh that appeared before the draft board – one got CO status,
one refused induction and went to prison, one went to Vietnam, I received a religious worker’s deferment (I wanted CO, but I could not say that I opposed ALL wars). Had I not received that deferment, I had decided to refuse induction owing to what I believed to be the immorality of the war (I guess I was stubborn, even back then). Received news of my deferment standing in my underwear at the induction center…
A dear friend’s father took CO status in WWII… that took real courage. He served in France unarmed as a medic.
@101
When I lived in California, they made it very hard to buy an assault weapon. I don’t know if that is the case today or not.
There are some people who should not have these firearms in their possession. That is the portion of the “gun issue.”
There should be no reason why law-abiding, sane citizens shouldn’t be able to exercise their right and use this firearms for target shooting (which for some is a sport), and in some cases, even hunting small game. There is a constitutional right to bear arms which in my opinion must be in place as a deterrent from the tyrant. An AR-15 is a much greater tool of resistance than a molotov cocktail.
So the accessibility of guns is an issue, but it is minor compared to the mental health issue that is the impetus for such atrocities. When you start talking about mental health and stop making this all about assault rifles, then we have something to talk about.
I often wonder about christians who refused induction who may have sent someone else to their death on the battlefield in their place. So much for preserving the life of your brother….
#110 Mike
I can agree with most of what you say, but who do we identify as “the tyrant”?
G’s #106 not to take anything away from pacificism’s good intentions, but it would carry more weight, for me at least, if he had volunteered to serve as a medic – taken his convictions to serve his brothers, those who had no religious out, and were drafted and mangled on the battlefields
as a female, my view is purely theory, not experience… and my husband, not a pacifist by any means, did say that our son was going to Canada if the war in Viet Nam was still going when he reached his teen years… we really, really need to pray for our Federal Government to make decisions that bless and not curse us… or so it seems to me
come on Duane, you’ve read enough classical philosophy to know the answer to that question
” When you start talking about mental health and stop making this all about assault rifles, then we have something to talk about.”
i think that is the crux of the real threat, the real issue – what we can’t seem to handle…
“I often wonder about christians who refused induction who may have sent someone else to their death on the battlefield in their place. So much for preserving the life of your brother….”
I refused to participate in a personal action where I was being demanded to take up arms.
I set an example for others, of personal resistance and fully afforded myself the lawful options regarding the notion of bloodless service to my community.
I did not send anyone anywhere, my misguided nation did, and holds full culpability for that action.
I fully repudiate the draft.
If someone wishes to enlist that is between them and their God as they understand God.
#111 Mike
Each of us had to struggle with our own conscience and ethics. I honored all three of my friends for acting according to their individual conscience. Those who refused induction had not fled to Canada, they took the consequences of their actions in light of what many considered an immoral war.
Guns is one of many issues where the divide in our culture continues to get deeper and uglier. And with all the gun-related recent mass killings in our nation, this one has really been hitting hard.
People are too entrenched in promoting and protecting their positions and in insulting those on the other side and show little interest in actually trying to come to any real solutions (because coming to real solutions means working with the other side and not just demanding everything being exactly the way you think it should be.)
While speaking of solutions, there are no easy ones. At the heart of the problem is the fallenness and evil of humanity. The fix is Jesus, but we must also try to put in place practical solutions as we know not everyone will turn to God, and even those who do are still capable of doing terrible things.
Gun control is the easiest to point, too, but there are so many other variables that come into play such as the glorification of violence in our culture, mental health issues, and the use/overuse/abuse legal and illegal of prescription drugs that potentially have serious psyche-altering effects. We need to think outside the box beyond just gun control.
As per gun control, there is certainly some significant truth that if guns were heavily restricted if not outright banned to the common citizenry, that many of the bad guys will still get them and now the common citizenry is left to fend for themselves. Research can show where there have been plenty of instances where legal gun-owning citizens have stopped murders and other crimes from occurring. These stories cannot just be dismissed.
At the same time with gun control, there would seem to be some common sense measures that could be put in place that would still allow just about all the responsible citizenry to own guns while stopping some bad/unstable characters from obtaining guns legally and also not allowing anyone to own assault rifles, bump stocks, etc. Measures that won’t stop nearly all gun violence, but if it can stop even just a few instances, especially the mass murders, wouldn’t it be worth it?
I believe the primary blame why some of these measures have not been put in place lay at the feet at the NRA and the gung-ho gun fanatics in this country who speak almost as if the 2nd amendment is some kind of Scriptural command forbidding any restriction on guns.
On one hand, I realize the main purpose of the 2nd amendment was to allow for the citizenry to protect itself against tyrannical government. But on the other hand, this is no longer a reality. Our government already is so advanced in their technology and weaponry, that there is no way the citizenry could ever battle against it. So much is already illegal to own. Who around here is allowed to own a modern tank or fighter jet or nuclear bomb? It is best to lay down this now long obsolete claim to be able to protect oneself against the government to do what is best for society.
pstrmike @111 – This was my situation – I was an anti war protestor for my 4 years of college and then came the lottery. What was I to do? CO or run to the border. But then I thought, I have a brother in Nam and a bunch of high school buddies – do I not help them? Do I remove myself and let someone else take my place and possible get killed doing what I should do?
So I went – couldn’t believe I did it after 4 yrs protesting it – but sometimes you don’t get to do what you want – but do what you have to.
I continue to serve in the same way I pray, in secret, that my heavenly Father might do with it what He wishes, per the Sermon on he Mount. It’s solely between me and Him. I only speak of it now that the death may end.
#114 Mike
If you’re speaking of the government, let me tell you… an AR15 will be the equivalent of a large wooden stick compared to what can be deployed to put down a civilian population.
@116 -117
I agree with what you said but with one exception- some one went in your place. You cannot accuse me of not being true to the gospel for defending my family when you allowed someone else to go into harms way in your stead. It is logically inconsistent.
also, here is an article on the myth of the gun show loophole.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/22/ccw-weekend-the-myth-of-the-gun-show-loophole/
#123
The article is biased and incorrect in many points…
the ultimate reason for this and all bloodshed is sin.
do we have a remedy for sin? Yes.
are we willing and able to share the remedy? Yes
can we model a life changed by the gospel regardless of our remedy being embraced? Yes
are I willing to make this the focus of my life? Naw, I have to protect my constitutionally guaranteed rights…
@121
agreed. I had that conversation with a friend last week and we both laughed at the ineffective of group with rifles against a modern military. But never underestimate the effectiveness of a committed heart, which we learned the hard way in Vietnam.
#122
Sorry, we’ll have to disagree.
I sent no one.
Each of us made our choices.
Each who went did so because they made the choice to go.
Each of us who did not sought and availed ourselves of all means possible to avoid killing our fellow humans.
#126 Mike
Oddly enough, the antique pieces I collect are from right before the time and right after the time the Second Amendment was passed. Several of the states required able bodied men to have in their home a musket, a bayonet, a powder horn and baldric, in order to serve in a militia in case of renewed aggression, not from the government, but from England, France and Spain as part of a “well regulated militia”. To enable this, the state arsenals were given British and French muskets from the Revolutionary War which were refurbished and provided to those who could not afford their purchase. You might have an American stock, a British barrel and a French lock! Of course, this was also the result of the suspicion that a regular standing army could be a mercenary arm of the government, where as a militia would be more reflective of the will of the people in individual states.
Hi em (#91)…I made that comment in reference to a comment somewhere on the interwebs where a gun owner basically said that they had the right to guns to protect themselves from persecution. Wasn’t presenting a solid case by any means, and this topic has given me pause to think about this aspect. I am not what you would call a pacifist. If my wife were being attacked, I would do what I could to bring down the attacker (as per Michael’s comment #84). As 120+ comments can attest to, this isn’t an easy issue with all in agreement.
Don’t know if there is anything we can do….but be angry, sad and upset.
I think the same as xenia. ..the second and third man were heros.
This isva sad thread today.
@119 mld
I heard the same thing among some guys who either volunteered or were drafted. I don’t remember too many young adults that were not disgusted with Vietnam. I was too young to be drafted, but I remember it well. I don’t know if my conscious could have lived with the idea of someone taking my place in battle and dying.
@128
One of the main concerns in the Federalist’s Papers was the emergence of the tyrant, bot h externally and internally.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/c386d1956f4fc186cd45a9548449aa0c/tumblr_oz0vgjAQnS1sh491mo1_1280.jpg
One of the things about this that sickens and angers me is that this guy seems to have had pretty obvious and well established predatory and violent behaviors toward women and children. He dated a 13 year old when he was 18 — nobody but a sick pervert does something like that, but nobody seems to have done anything about it. He violently attacked his ex wife and step son but all he got was 12 months. That’s a slap on the wrist. His assault conviction, as inappropriately small as it was, apparently should have prevented him from being able to legally purchase firearms, but the military and government apparently didn’t even see fit to make sure his info was correctly entered into the database that lists people who are not allowed to buy guns.
If our society took sexual impropriety and domestic violence more seriously than it does this guy could have been dealt with years ago. Instead we’re all wringing our hands over the Second Amendment as if that is the source of the problem.
“If our society took sexual impropriety and domestic violence more seriously than it does this guy could have been dealt with years ago. Instead we’re all wringing our hands over the Second Amendment as if that is the source of the problem.”
bullseye j2!!!
@133, correct. If the air force hadn’t dropped the ball, this guy would have been denied a firearm under the national instant background check database (NICS), which every licensed dealer is required by federal law in all 50 states to use. The NRA supported NICS, btw.
Re pstrmike: Nebulously defined “assault” rifles have been banned for sale in California since 2000, old ones grandfathered in. Sacramento is delaying the new registration requirement since the new definitions may make a lot of semi auto hunting rifles illegal, ditto the grace period to turn in >10 round magazines. California gun owners aren’t stupid. California pulled the “please register” shell game in 98… then told the owners to turn in their weapons to the state.
But as I said at the beginning, the assault weapons ban and high cap mag ban didn’t prevent the San Bernardino office massacre.
As for G man’s nasty comment that gun owners are wannabe baby killers…
When we had our first child, his mom wanted to sleep with the baby. I tried to talk her out of it, but she wouldn’t budge. A lot of it a cultural. I did a little research in my county and found that in the six years previous, 43 babies were killed by co sleeping parents (and who knows how many were supposed SIDS deaths). Zero were killed in the manner like “little Johnny found daddy’s gun and shot himself or little sibling.”
Texas shooter: coming out more that he was a nasty and evil person, just like Norwegian Anders Brevik, who despite very strict gun laws, murdered 11 people with a truck bomb and 79 people with a gun.
Both had a demonstrated vehement hatred of God…. whom they both denied exists.
Crazy violent people are not hard to spot – when they are young. The first time some pre teen sets off a firecracker up some cats ass, he goes in the system and is watched. Second act and there will be a 2nd in the pokey and toss the key. As I said earlier, sexual predators and violent people don’t change.
#131 Mike
Indeed, but it was a political concern. Yet, when actual uprisings took place (as they did) they were put down with Federal forces. 18th century models do not always transfer well to the 21st century. An 18th century musket (as considered in the Second Amendment) was only an effective weapon in a “well regulated militia”. It depended upon concentration of fire, which required working in concert with a large group. That changed, first with rifling, then with breech loading, then with a clip fed rifle and finally with the emergence of automatic and semi automatic weapons. The issue we are dealing with today is that a single person with a semi-automatic or automatic weapon can stand alone and kill dozens of people within minutes, as we have seen. That was not the case in late 18th century America.
“As for G man’s nasty comment that gun owners are wannabe baby killers…”
??????
#131 Mike
“I was too young to be drafted, but I remember it well.”
Indeed, but MLD, G-Man, and me and my friends had to live out the decisions in real time and had to answer to conscience not in the abstract but in reality. I have respect and regard for the decisions that each made.
g,
how old are you? You said,
“I have been on the planet almost 62 years.”
So are 61, or was that a typo?
If that is correct, wouldn’t that make you a little too young to have gone to Vietnam?
@139
We were all holding our breathe that the Paris Peace Accords would actually produce something and we would be spared the possibility of going to Vietnam. So, yes, there was a lot of talk and soul searching among my peers. When The Iranians took over our embassy, I was convinced we were not far from going war. I was faced with the same decision and I enlisted. and please don’t thank me for my service.
To some degree I think this shooting dovetails with the recent #metoo campaign and Hollywood sexual assault scandal. They both involve mistreatment of women and children, blind eyes being turned, and justice not being served on a small scale enabling things to metastasize until they became to horrible to not see. Except in this case people still aren’t seeing that it’s about violence against women and children and would rather just focus on the mode that violence took.
Duane,
You are a firearms expert, and you know in your heart that you are not telling the truth about the second amendment, or about the firearms available in the 18th century.
Back to modern times, you also know that more people die from blunt force trauma than from all types of rifles combined, as most firearm murders involve pistols.
Your means of persuasion are deception and manipulation, and you know it.
Moderate away Michael, but if we can’t have an honest discussion, there’s nothing to discuss.
The Texas shooter bought his AR at a gun store after submitting to a NICS background check, which he never should have passed. Your beloved gun control laws failed, but lets by all means put more trust in the State to protect us from the evil men who walk among us.
My semi automatic rifles are for putting holes in paper. Being of sound mind, and a threat to no one, what I own is none of your, or your beloved State’s business.
Jim,
You’re out of line for the first time ever.
I know Duane…and your accusations are untrue and beneath you.
It’s obvious that Christians cannot have a reasoned discussion on this issue.
Thread closed.