A Short Primer On Church Leadership: Pastor Mike

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77 Responses

  1. surfer51 says:

    Let me be the first to commend you!

  2. Josh the Baptist says:

    WHo is Pastor Mike?

  3. pstrmike says:

    thanks surfer!

    Josh ….. 8)

  4. Jean says:

    Very good reading this morning.

  5. Michael says:

    Josh,

    He’s my pastor.
    Besides that impossible task, has has two masters degrees and is working on his doctorate as we speak.
    He’ll be contributing some meat for us as we go.
    Kevin is on vacation this week…

  6. Josh the Baptist says:

    Very good. Just didn’t recognize the handle. I haven’t read the post yet. Will now 🙂

  7. Josh the Baptist says:

    pstrmike – Did you used to go by a different name around here?

  8. Bob Sweat says:

    Pastor Mike,

    You enjoying your new University?

  9. Michael says:

    Josh,

    He might have… 🙂

  10. Siggy the Terrible says:

    PstrMike
    Is this list in the recommendations prioritized?

  11. pstrmike says:

    Siggy,
    I don’t see this so much as a linear list of prioritizes as much as an inclusive whole. One aspect about spiritual leadership is that no one is ever fully qualified and the leader him/herself is always in a state of formation. Where leaders lose their edge is when they neglect the necessity of their own spiritual growth.

    Space did not allow a full development of this, but this refers to more than just senior pastors. Within a local church body, there are many leaders, both formal and informal.

    Josh…. what Michael said…. 😉

    Bob, almost persuaded to Quake…..

  12. Bob Sweat says:

    #11 🙂

  13. Siggy the Terrible says:

    Always nice to receive such a timely reply 🙂 thx!
    One more question
    Well two.
    “Not only is the church called to imitate the biblical examples as modeled by Paul (1 Cor. 11:1), but their lives also served a models for others to imitate (Phil. 3:17). ”

    Did you mean to imply, imv, that Paul imitated Christ, thus we imitate Paul, and the unbelieving world should imitate us?

    Would you say the book of 1Timothy is prioritized? Doctrine, prayer, qualifications, etc?

  14. Duane Arnold says:

    PstrMike
    Nicely done…

    From your reply in #11, I am assuming George Fox (?)…

  15. pstrmike says:

    Thanks Duane.

    Recent name change:

    Portland Seminary of George Fox University

  16. Duane Arnold says:

    #15
    Ah, if I remember correctly, you may have someone there who does work on Philo…
    Good for you to be continuing on.

  17. pstrmike says:

    yes he does….

    peace…

  18. Steve Wright says:

    Great contribution here, Mike.

  19. pstrmike says:

    @13
    we imitate as long as they follow Christ. However, I think that was written in the context of the Apostle admonishing a congregation that he had personal involvement with. I have had many examples, both good and bad or what it means to follow Christ. All of us are leaders, and all of us are followers, it depends on the context.

    As to 1Timothy, I’m not sure what particular verse, if any, you are referring to. I see the admonitions in scripture in a wholistic fashion, we are not to focus on one area of our spiritual disciplines at the expense of any of the others. God wants us to be well-rounded, and when we focus on one or two areas at the exclusion of others, we become unbalanced. Keeping a balanced life, to me, is the big challenge.

  20. Siggy the Terrible says:

    I’m referring to the book entire. Ch 1 begins with Paul urging Timothy to stay on at Ephesus to preserve sound doctrine and ends referencing that command. Ch. 2:1 is basically “first off, pray” and ch.2:8 “pray, lifting up holy hands”, and conduct for women and again references the issue of teaching. Ch. 3 qualifications. At the end of 3 this creed is doctrine, in 4 we see doctrines of demons, prayer, 5 preaching and teaching and double honor for working hard at them. 6 is once again a bookend on doctrine. Throughout the book interspersed amongst guidelines on conduct is teach, teaching, able to teach, teach these things, and don’t forget about teaching. Seems to be the priority of Paul in this book was doctrine, then prayer (without wrath or dissension). Just was wondering what your thoughts were.

    G’night

  21. Siggy the Terrible says:

    Btw, thx again

  22. pstrmike says:

    @20
    I approach the scripture systematically (although your post @20 would be a workable outline to do an overview of the letter) and experience has taught me that an over-emphasis on prioritizing of spiritual practice and methodology can be mislead us. I’m sure we all know people who have a good working knowledge of the Bible (which is necessary) and yet their life is full of malice, avarice, and dominance of others. There are no outward acts of justice coming forth from their lives. They will even use Scripture to justify their actions and attitudes. onversely, I know people who don’t know the Bible all that well, yet have strong prayer lives. There are those who have zeal without knowledge, and those people can create a lot of havoc in their wake.

    In truth, we need it all. I keep reading the Bible so that the things of God are kept in front of me, and then I pray these things to God and it works to separate the wheat from the chaff within my own soul.

  23. em ... again says:

    #22 – pstrmike, how we need to remember the aspect of what you’ve succinctly observed here…

  24. em ... again says:

    for the sake of clarity, perhaps i should correct my typo and add a word – make that all the ‘aspects’

  25. A. Amos Love says:

    Hmmm? – “A Short Primer On Church Leadership”

    I have a little different take on “church leadership.”
    Since leaving “The Abusive Religious System” of today.
    ———-

    Hasn’t anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever mentioned “church leadership?”

    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever called them self, “leader?”
    Or, “church leader?” Or, “servant leader?” Or, “spiritual leader?”

    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever called another Disciple, “leader?”
    Or, “church leader?” Or, “servant leader?” Or, “spiritual leader?”

    If being one of **His Disciples** is important?
    For WE, His Sheep, His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church?
    Wouldn’t **His Disciples,** in the Bible, be a good example to follow?
    Wouldn’t **His Disciples,** in the Bible, be a good place to start?
    ———-

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Could it be that Jesus, taught **His Disciples**
    NOT to call themselves “Leader?”

  26. A. Amos Love says:

    Hasn’t anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
    Jesus taught **His Disciples** NOT to be called “Leaders?”
    For you have “ONE” leader? – The Christ?

    And, NOT one of **His Disciples** called them self “leader?” 😉

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    Humble – a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.

    Mat 23:10-12 TM – The Message.
    And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
    There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
    **Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
    If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
    But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

    Jesus taught **His Disciples** NOT to be called “leaders.”
    And NONE did.

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
    Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
    Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

    **His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
    None called themselves “Leaders.” None? None.
    None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.

    If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders?”
    And someone calls them self a “leader?”
    Allows others to call them “leader;”

    Are they one of **His Disciples?**

    Or, are they NO LONGER a **Disciple of Jesus?** Oy Vey!!! 😉
    Or, are they just a “disobedient” **Disciple of Jesus?** 😉

    Why isn’t what Jesus said important? 😉

  27. Michael says:

    The Bible also clearly speaks of appointed overseers of the flock.

    “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.”
    (Acts 20:28 ESV)

    “Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
    To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:”
    (Philippians 1:1 ESV)

    “The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,”
    (1 Timothy 3:1–2 ESV)

    The Scriptures also call them leaders…

    “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
    (Hebrews 13:17 ESV)

    Thanks for playing…

  28. Steven Wright says:

    Hey, did you know Trinity is not found in the Bible too?

    The Bible does call certain men in the Church, shepherds. In fact, that is what the word, pastor, means. (Eph 4:11)

  29. Xenia says:

    I wonder how A. Amos Love came to have the Bible he quotes.

  30. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I think Hannah gave it to him… 🙂

  31. Xenia says:

    Exactly what I was thinking.

  32. A. Amos Love says:

    Hi Steven @ 28

    You write…
    “The Bible does call certain men in the Church, shepherds.
    In fact, that is what the word, pastor, means. (Eph 4:11)”

    Well… If that’s correct… In the Bible…
    Can you name one of **His Disciples** Who called them self “shepherd?”
    Or, “pastor?” Or, “poimen?” Or, “leader?” Or. “reverend?”

    Can you name one of **His Disciples** Who took the “Title,” “shepherd?”
    Or, “pastor?” Or, “poimen?” Or, “leader?” Or. “reverend?”

    Can you name one of **His Disciples** Who called another Disciple “shepherd?”
    Or, “pastor?” Or, “poimen?” Or, “leader?” Or. “reverend?

    Can you name one of **His Disciples** Who was “Hired or Fired,” as a “shepherd?”
    Or, “pastor?” Or, “poimen?” Or, “leader?” Or, “reverend?”

    Can you name one of **His Disciples** Who became a…

    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit?
    Preaching, to People, in Pews?
    Weak after Weak?
    In a church?
    ——-

    If being one of **His Disciples** is important?
    For WE, His Sheep, His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church?
    Wouldn’t **His Disciples,** in the Bible, be a good example to follow?
    Wouldn’t **His Disciples,** in the Bible, be a good place to start?
    ——-

    The only “ONE” I can find in the Bible..
    Who “called them self” Shepherd…
    And had the “Title” Shepherd…
    IS…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    ——-

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  33. Michael says:

    A .Amos Love,

    Unfortunately, I have to leave for a colonoscopy, which your eisigesis bears some similarity with.

    The Scriptures and church history oppose you…which should give you pause.

  34. A. Amos Love says:

    Hi Michael @ 27

    You, and the original post, mention, 1 Tim 3, and Titus.
    And some of the qualifications for elder/overseer.
    “Therefore an overseer must be above reproach,”

    Now, those are some, 17+, very tuff qualifications – Yes?

    In my experience, most who take the Title/Postion “pastor/elder/overseer”…
    Tend to “Ignore,” or “Twist,” the 17+, Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-8…

    I did… 🙁

    Here’s just the first Qualification in both 1 Tim 3, and Titus.

    1 – Must Be *BLAMELESS.*

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *BLAMELESS,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “Must Be” *BLAMELESS,*
    as the steward of God; NOT self willed, NOT soon angry,
    NOT given to wine, NO striker, NOT given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober,
    *JUST,* *HOLY,* temperate;

    1 – *Must Be*
    Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    This *must be* is the same Greek word. – You *must be* born again. Jn 3:7
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – BLAMELESS
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    How many, pastor/leader/reverends,
    who honestly examine themselves,
    seriously considering this one qualification,
    can see themselves as BLAMELESS, without fault, innocent, guiltless…
    and thus qualify to be an elder/overseer?

    And if you can see yourself as BLAMELESS?
    Is that pride? And NO longer without fault? 🙂

    The Bible talks about elder/overseers.
    And Qualifications for elder/overseers.
    Can you have one without the other?

    And, if a pastor/elder/overseer does NOT Qualify???

    Should they remove themselves?

    And be a good example to the Flock?

  35. Jean says:

    Jesus told Peter to “feed my sheep.” That is shepherding (i.e., pastoring) languagge.

    In Acts Fifteen, James exercised leadership at the council of elders and apostles in the matter of Gentile believers.

    In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul described himself as a planter/master builder and Apollos as a waterer of God’s field. Paul spoke of the responsibility of those who build on the foundation that Paul laid, which is Christ. This subject here is church roles and responsibilities amount leadership.

  36. A. Amos Love says:

    Michael

    Sorry to hear about colonoscopy…

    Pray everything, the outcome, goes well.

  37. A. Amos Love says:

    Hi Jean @ 35

    I’m glad we are in agreement. 🙂

    You, Jean, can NOT name – And I, Amos, can NOT name…

    One of **His Disciples** Who called them self “shepherd?”

    One of **His Disciples** Who took the “Title,” “shepherd?”

    One of **His Disciples** Who was “Hired or Fired,” as a “shepherd?”
    ——-

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

  38. A. Amos Love says:

    Hi Michael @ 27

    You, and the original post, mention, 1 Tim 3, and Titus.
    And some of the qualifications for elder/overseer.
    “Therefore an overseer must be above reproach,”

    Now, those are some, 17+, very tuff qualifications – Yes?

    In my experience, most who take the Title/Postion “pastor/elder/overseer”…
    Tend to “Ignore,” or “Twist,” the 17+, Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-8…

    I did… ?

  39. Xenia says:

    According to Church history (which I consider reliable, you may not) everywhere the Disciples went they laid hands on men to become Bishops.

    From the Wikipedia article on Apostolic Succession:

    The See of Rome claims to have been founded by Simon Peter, traditionally called the “Chief of the Apostles”.
    The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the primary patriarchate of the Eastern Orthodox Church, claims the Apostle Andrew (brother of Simon Peter) as its founder.
    The Patriarch of Alexandria (Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria) claims to have been founded by Mark the Evangelist.[50][51]
    The Patriarchate of Antioch (Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Maronite Patriarchate of Antioch and the Whole Levant) claims to have been founded by Paul.[52]
    The Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem claims to have been founded by James (brother of Jesus).[53]
    The Armenian Apostolic Church, based at Etchmiadzin, claims to have been founded by the Apostles Bartholomew and Jude Thaddeus.[54]
    The following bodies claim to have been founded by the Apostle Thomas: the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, originating in or around Mesopotamia,[55] and churches based in Kerala, India having Syriac roots and generically known as the Saint Thomas Christians: the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church,[56] and the Mar Thoma Syrian Church.
    The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church claims founding by Philip the Evangelist.[57]
    The Orthodox Church of Georgia claims the Apostles Andrew and Simon the Zealot as its founders.
    The Orthodox Church of Cyprus, based at Nova Justiniana (Erdek), claims to have been founded by the Apostles Paul and Barnabas.[58]
    The Russian Orthodox Church claims a connection with the Apostle Andrew, who is said to have visited the area where the city of Kiev later arose.[59]

  40. Xenia says:

    Consider this:

    Throughout most of Church history, people did not have access to their own copy of the Bible.

    + All Bibles were hand copied until the 1500’s.
    + Most people throughout history were illiterate and uneducated
    + Most people worked hard all day at menial tasks (farming) and did not have electric lights so they could study the Scriptures in the evening.

    That most Christians throughout history could not study the Bible for themselves is a fact. Only in modern times can people fall into the particular folly of studying the Bible for themselves w/o guidance from Church leadership and reference to what the Church has always taught.

  41. Xenia says:

    To summarize, the Disciples were evangelists, not leaders of a local church. They were missionaries.

  42. Xenia says:

    And to further summarize, A. Amos Love is a proponent of a type of “Christianity” that only works in the modern era.

  43. A. Amos Love says:

    Hi Xenia

    Thanks for the history lessons.

    Is that a Russian Cross in your avatar?

    I was baptized Russian Orthodox.

  44. Xenia says:

    Yes, It’s an Orthodox Cross.

    I am very relieved to hear you were baptized in the Orthodox Church!

    You may not realize what God did for you at that ceremony, but as you are a Christian today, I assume it worked.

    God bless.

  45. pstrmike says:

    thanks em.

    AAL,
    I can’t really engage with this right now, and i see no need to repeat what others have said. Just some quick thoughts.

    I have also experienced spiritual abuse and those experiences (and that of others) still inform my own personal hermetic.

    I make almost as much in one week in my trade as I do in one month as a pastor.

    Leadership is acknowledged all through out the Scriptures. Those called to leadership, in whatever capacity, are simply stewards or under shepherds. Many have forgot that , but that does not make these principles invalid.

    Xenia,
    Good work!!!

  46. A. Amos Love says:

    Xenia

    Here’s two more qualifications from Titus for – “pastor/elder/overseer”
    That most who want to be a “pastor/elder/overseer” today, tend to *Ignore* and “Twist.”

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *BLAMELESS,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “Must Be” *BLAMELESS,*
    as the steward of God; NOT self willed, NOT soon angry,
    NOT given to wine, NO striker, NOT given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober,
    *JUST,* *HOLY,* temperate;

    2 – JUST
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
    1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
    1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
    who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
    1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
    1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
    is wholly conformed to the will of God,

    3 – HOLY
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

    Now that’s three tough qualifications for – “pastor/elder/overseers.”
    1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
    2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY. — Yes?

    If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Body, His Kids,
    Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…

    The number of Biblically Qualified – Bishops – is quite small. 😉

    But, will these UN-qualified, pastor/leader/reverends/bishops…

    “Remove Themselves?”

    And be a good example to the flock?

  47. A. Amos Love says:

    Xenia

    I NO longer have much trust…
    In what many of those “Religious Systems” you mentioned have to say.

    Those in “leadership” have had a bad habit of messing up while…
    Trying to maintain their Power, Profit, Prestige, over the years.

    Lots of “Spiritual Abuse” in “Today’s Religious Systems”
    Lots of “Spiritual Abuse” in “Yesterdays Religious Systems”

    And the “Abuse” has a benefit…
    I had NO place to go but to go to Jesus…
    And Jesus is the best – Yes?

    There are reasons why there are now thousands, upon thousands…
    Of different denominations…

    Most started by “pastor/leaders,” who did NOT like their “pastor/leaders.”
    Or, rebelled aginst their “pastor/leaders,” beliefs. Yes?

    WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Kings and Priests, His Ambassadors…
    Can be one of **His Disciples** and learn directly from…
    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    NO middle man…

    1 John 2:26-27 KJV
    These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
    and **ye need NOT that any man teach you:**
    but as the same anointing **teacheth you of all things,**
    and is truth, and is no lie…

    Luke 6:46 KJV
    And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do NOT the things **which I say?**

    Sometimes ya-just-gotta-get-it for your self from

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  48. Steve Wright says:

    This may be the most idiotic thing ever argued about on this blog.

  49. Xenia says:

    {{{{ Jesus }}}}

    and

    {{{{ A. Amos Love }}}}

  50. pstrmike says:

    {{{{ Steve!!! }}}}

  51. A. Amos Love says:

    Steve @ 48

    Sorry you think it’s “idiotic” to question “Todays Corrupt Religious System.”

    But, many know “The System” is broken. And folks are leaving “The System” in droves.
    Many becoming, “Nones,” and “Dones,” in hope of finding “Truth.” {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    ——-

    Sorry you think it’s “idiotic” to question the Qualifications for a “pastor/overseer.”

    But, maybe that’s a main cause of “The System” being broken? Un-Qualified overseers?
    And a main cause of “Spiritual Abuse” being so prevalent? Un-Qualified overseers?

    And why many pastors are suffering “Burnout/Depression?” Un-Qualified overseers?
    And why many pastors are suffering “moral failure?” Un-Qualified overseers?
    ——-

    Steve, do you know? Many? Any? pastor/leader/elder/overseers?
    Who meet ALL the 17+, very, very, tuff Qualifications?
    For elder/overseer?

    Which Qualifications are NOT important?
    Which Qualifications can WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, “Ignore.”
    ———-

    Should a pastor/elder/overseer?
    Who does NOT meet the 17+, very tuff Qualifications?

    Remove themselves?

    And become a good example to the Flock?

  52. Josh the Baptist says:

    Is this poetry?

  53. Steve Wright says:

    Nice dodge, but anyone reading your comments sees you are not simply arguing for high integrity among pastors and leaders…and anyone who knows my participation on this blog for 8 years knows I would never argue against that to begin with.

  54. Xenia says:

    There are several evangelical groups that don’t believe in church leadership. She’s not completely out of the ballpark. I don’t agree w/ her of course, but she’s not a lone loon.

  55. Steve Wright says:

    Xenia, your excitement at the Orthodox baptism was duly noted, as is your lone wolf Christianity being associated with the dreaded evangelicals.

    I care little about all the wild beliefs floating around but this discussion has taken dead aim on interpreting Scripture and to THAT ALONE I speak of the idiocy of the argument.

  56. Michael says:

    A. Amos Love,

    The biblical standards for pastors are broad ideals that we are to seek to meet.

    We all fail in some way or another, some time or another.

    That doesn’t mean the standards are faulty or that because we fail the church goes without leaders.

    It means that the church as an organic unit holds all it’s members in accountability and we practice continual repentance.

    We are people compelled by grace.

    There are bad guys in some pulpits…I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever know on that subject.

    However, the majority of pastors are trying to be faithful servants though they are fallen men living in a fallen world.

    Somebody did you dirty…I get that.

    That doesn’t give you the right to twist Scripture and speak as if anarchy is commended in the Bible.

    Enough…

  57. A. Amos Love says:

    Michael @ 27

    Yes – I love to play. 😉

    You mention Heb 13:17…
    “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls…”

    I’m-a-thinkn, you are probably pointing to this verse…
    To validate your standard for having “leaders,” for His Body, His Ekklesia, His Church.
    Once upon a time, I promoted this verse too. 🙂

    But, in my experience, this verse has been used, over used, a lot by “Abusive Leaders.”
    Maybe NOT you, but… Those who are “Spiritually Abusive” preach “Obey your leaders” a lot.

    But, these x“Abusive Leaders,” do NOT spend a lot of time with…

    1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

    Php 2:3 KJV
    Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory;
    but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    Eph 5:21 KJV
    Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

    Dontcha think, anyone who wants to be known as “the leader,” in Heb 13:17…
    Should teach, and practice, these eleven Servant-ship skills?
    These every day traits, responsibilities, required for ALL **His Disciples?**

    1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
    3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
    4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
    6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
    7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
    8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
    9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
    10 – NOT giving themselves “Flattering Titles?” Job 32:21-22 KJV

    11 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    11 – Humility – a modest, or low estimate of ones own importance.

    Does anyone know many in “church leadership,” **Clothed with humility?**
    Having “a modest, or low estimate of their own importance?

    And, if they do NOT teach, or practice, these every day traits, for ALL **His Disciples?**
    And, if they do NOT meet the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus 1?

    Can they still call them self “church leader?”

    Do WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Body, still have to “Obey and Submit?”

  58. A. Amos Love says:

    Michael @ 56

    You write…
    “That doesn’t give you the right to twist Scripture
    and speak as if **anarchy** is commended in the Bible.”

    Michael – **anarchy** is a strong word…

    For the record – I do NOT believe **anarchy** is commended in the Bible.

    If you re-read my comments, you’ll see I believe **Jesus** is commended in the Bible.

    After reading my comments, pointing people to {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    Over, and over…

    Jesus – who calls Himself… In the Bible…
    “The ‘ONE” Leader.” “The “ONE” Shepherd.” “The “ONE” Teacher.”

    Do you really think your assessment of these comments, **anarchy,**

    Is fair, or correct?

  59. Michael says:

    A. Amos Love,

    I am weary of this nonsense.

    You’ve been answered scripturally and that, along with church history stands against you.
    You now are not only in error, but you are propounding aberrant teaching to draw others into your sin.
    I won’t have it.

    Whenever a group of humans get together, a leader will always emerge.

    A lack of leadership and a rejection of standards always leads to anarchy.

    We pastors point to Jesus as well… that’s our job.

  60. A. Amos Love says:

    Michael

    Sorry to make you weary of nonsense.

    I never recommended “A lack of leadership” or “a rejection of standards”

    I recommended {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} as, “The “ONE” Leader”

    MY Sheep – Hear MY Voice – and I know them – and They Follow ME. John 10:27
    ——-

    Hoping your “colonoscopy” came out okay. 🙂

  61. Michael says:

    A.A. Love,

    If you believe in the authority of Scripture then you must accept that Jesus has appointed human leaders in the church.
    Period.

  62. Steve Wright says:

    I’m about to do my 5th funeral of 2017. In all 5 cases the living family contacted me. In each case the family expressed appreciation for my oversight and service to their family at such a time. In each case I pointed everyone I saw and spoke with to Jesus, especially during the funeral message.

    In the alternative being suggested, we are all Eleanor Rigbys living in isolation with our Bibles…imprisoned by our own erroneous rudderless doctrine.

  63. Duane Arnold says:

    I’ve been following this strange thread and I must say, it has made me think about leadership. I’ve known some really great Christian leaders and I’ve known some really bad Christian leaders. Both types exist. I’ve also known good people called to leadership who are not perfect, but get up every day with the intention to serve. They don’t make much money, some lack a first rate education, some are good teachers while others struggle… but they all sacrifice their comfort (and often their family’s comfort) to serve others. They struggle, often with an extra job on the side, to survive. They juggle demands on their time, the church budget, lay leadership, times of crisis… and they do it with joy. Sometimes we are way off-base in our demands for “perfection”… Just my opinion.

  64. covered says:

    Am I wrong in thinking that “blameless” does not mean without sin or sinless? We will all be blamed or accused, the issue is whether the accusation sticks.

  65. Steve Wright says:

    Agreed, covered. Leadership includes having to make tough decisions…decisions that can be criticized and certainly disagreed with.

    Our goal is to make such decisions in such a manner that any critics don’t have legitimate Biblical grounds to complain against.

  66. Steve Wright says:

    I should clarify, they can still disagree with the decision – I’m not saying the Bible can be pointed to chapter and verse for every decision ever needing to be made.

    I meant they can’t legitimately complain with the decision process and implementation.

    For example, church leadership may do the right thing, such as removing an adulterous leader from ministry, but do so in the wrong way, or in a manner that is “blameworthy”

  67. covered says:

    Thanks Steve. Sometimes I feel like a moving target with some here. It makes it less appealing to comment at times. It seems that often, we are viewed as the enemy. You have handled yourself well.

  68. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    In all the years on this blog I have not joined in the criticizing of church pastors as I have a strong doctrine and respect of those whom God has called. (I may tease their doctrine, but hey they are called to a tough vocation) … even if they only work on Sundays. 😉

  69. covered says:

    MLD 🙂

  70. A. Amos Love says:

    covered

    8 – no striker — NOT quarrelsome, contentious.
    9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
    10 – not self willed — NOT self pleasing, NOT arrogant.
    11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger.
    12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.

    ….. Well, here’s five more I do NOT Qualify for. 😉
    ….. Do WE, His Ekklesia, His Disciples, see many pastor/elders today who meet these five?
    ….. There can’t be many pastor/elders left who Qualify after these 12 tuff Qualifications.

    13 – **HOLY — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.

    14 – **JUST — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

    ….. Seems, most, pastor/leader/overseers, and those who, Must have “Church Leaders,”
    Are really kinda fuzzy on these two, **HOLY and **JUST. Undefiled by sin, innocent, faultless.

    I’ve noticed, most in “Today’s Church Leadership,” just “Ignore” these two.

    The pastor/overseers children must also Qualify…
    “having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” Titus 1:6

    15 – faithful children— believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
    16 – not accused of *riot — Strongs – *riot – asotia — unsavedness.
    ….. an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
    17 – unruly — disobedient.
    ….. Hmmm? Do you know any pastor/elder/overseers who have teenagers? 😉
    ….. Do you know many teenagers NOT accused of being “disobedient?”

    ….. These three Qualifications have to Dis-Qualify a bunch of pastor/elder/overseers. Yes?

    Now, that’s a tough list of 17, tuff Qualifications. Yes?
    ——-

    Please, do NOT blame me. I did NOT create these Qualifications. 😉

    I think it was Paul, and most likely Jesus…
    Who created these standards for an overseer. 🙂
    ——-

    Why would one of His Servants, a Disciple of Jesus, a King and Priest unto God…
    **Desire a position,** **Take a position,** elder/overseer, they do NOT Quaify for?

    Why would one of His Servants, a Disciple of Jesus, a King and Priest unto God…
    **Remain in a postion,** elder/overseer, they do NOT Quaify for?

  71. A. Amos Love says:

    covered

    Oooops – Seems part one, 1, – The first seven qualifications…

    Is awaiting moderation. 🙁

  72. Jean says:

    If we follow A.Amos Love’s logic, there would be no Church, no Bible, and no Christianity today. Even Peter, the denier and hypocrite, and Paul, the foremost sinner, would be unqualified to pastor Amos.

  73. Steve Wright says:

    I know many incredible teenagers, past and present, who could never be labeled as disobedient.

    That’s the problem with becoming a cynical isolationist. You miss out on all the good, convinced you are avoiding the bad.

  74. A. Amos Love says:

    Jean

    NOPE – Your assessments, judgments, of my beliefs, and history, are NOT accurate.

    Peter, Paul, and their writings, still pastor me, shepherd me, feed me, lots.

    And, in the Bible, neither one called them self pastor. Or shepherd…
    And, in the Bible, neither one had the “Title” pastor. Or, shepherd…

    And, over the years, many, with “Titles,” and without “Titles,”
    Have been there to **Feed me,** and **Shepherd me.**

    When Peter, said in 1 Pet 5:2 KJV, **Feed** the flock of God which is among you…
    **Feed,** is the Greek verb poimeano…

    Some versions translate poimeano as…

    1 Pet 5:2 KJV – **Feed** the flock of God
    1 Pet 5:2 ESV – **Shepherd** the flock of God.
    1 Pet 5:2 RSV – **Tend** the flock of God…
    1 Pet 5:2 NLT – **Care** for the flock…
    ———

    Paul, also taught when WE, His Sheep, His Ekkleia, His Disciples, come together…
    ALL can, and are expected to, participate.

    Seems WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, can learn from ALL…
    And ALL may prophecy one by one.

    1 Cor 14:26 KJV
    How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
    every one of you hath a psalm, hath a *doctrine, (*Teaching.)
    hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
    Let all things be done unto edifying.

    1 Cor 14:31 KJV
    For ye may ALL prophesy one by one,
    that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted.

  75. Michael says:

    A. Amos Love,

    Any list of behavioral commands in the Scriptures has been broken by every Christian who ever lived.
    None of us meet any of them perfectly, or even consistently.
    We do not throw away the entirety of the faith once delivered for our failures.
    We repent.
    You began this long line of posted screeds trying to convince my readers that there was no biblical warrant for leadership in the church.
    You were soundly refuted, but refused the recognize that.
    Now, you want to convince my readers that all leaders are disqualified.
    That too is a farcical notion.
    There are abusive men and wolves in the pastorate.
    That should be marked and dealt with.
    However, there is no good reason for me to allow someone to continue to be divisive and insulting to those who are true servant leaders, many of whom live sacrificially in order to serve those God has given them.
    Therefore, your time here is done.
    Move on.

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    A.AL,
    My question after reading all of your writings is —- So???

    Unless I missed something, aren’t you disqualified from being a Christian as you do not meet the qualifications? “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

    Just think – if there should ever pop up one who is qualified to teach and call himself a teacher, you are disqualified from learning.

  77. Steve Wright says:

    Paul calling himself an Apostle was far more an authority play than anyone calling themselves pastor or leader.

    Titus 1:5 puts to rest any idea that these requirements were given to show nobody qualifies.

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