Blinded by Isaiah 45

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110 Responses

  1. Will Whosoever says:

    *sigh* … sorry Michael. Common sense has gone the way of the phone booth.

  2. Michael says:


    It’s just crazy…and I believe it makes balanced people withdraw from the discussion, making things worse.

  3. Duane Arnold says:


    If you’re damned, I’ll be on the next stool at the bar and will order the first round… ?

  4. Will Whosoever says:

    I agree Michael…

  5. Michael says:


    If I’m damned I need you to repent so someone will watch my cats for me in glory… 🙂

  6. Josh says:

    If I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a hundred times, you have to screen your facebook friends better 🙂

  7. Michael says:


    I should have listened! 🙂

  8. Anne says:

    I don’t suppose pointing out that the books of the Bible weren’t divided into chapters until the 13th century would help dissuade any minds from this foolishness. Arghhh.

  9. Duane Arnold says:


    History? The Canon? Translation? Division into chapters? You’ve obviously gone over the edge… ?

  10. JM says:

    That’s just scary!

    I usually end up ticking people off in both parties because I ask too many questions.
    I do not see that we should be defending political parties who would sell us out in a heartbeat anyway. Elected office has not become about service–it has become about power, who has it and what horrific things have to be done to keep it. The end justifies the means. We voters are simply useful idiots in the idea wars. Kind of like pew sitters have become in the machine-like atmosphere of so many mega-churches.

    Uber partisanship is a bad witness to the world that God is divided and has a “side”. It seems to serve only the enemy of our souls and steals precious time and energy that should be used elsewhere. I know people who will not witness to some if they are a Republican and some, if they are a Democrat! Really! I’m sure God is very happy with that! If I said all the inflammatory speech with its accompanying acrimony was sad and awful–it would be a gross understatement.

    “It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.”, Psalm 118:9, KJV

  11. Josh says:

    Anne, Duane is right. Talking about dates is liberal stuff. If it happened prior to 1611 it doesn’t matter anyway.


  12. Dan from Georgia says:

    Micheal! You know that you committed the unpardonable sin of being unfriended on Facebook, right?

    I made a commitment to not comment on Trump because I followed my clear conscience by not voting in the 2016 Presidential Election.

    However, I will say this…these people are just plain nuts. And if you will, they are the ones suffering TDS…Trump Delusion Syndrome. I have many friends that voted for Trump for various reasons, and I am kind of like “meh…whatever” with their vote, but these folks that twist scripture, reason, and credulity, I have little respect for.

  13. Michael says:


    My list of unpardonable sins is so long at this point, I just added it on…

  14. bob1 says:


    Talk about biblical illiteracy.

    I guess there’s no bottom to stupidity.

  15. Dan from Georgia says:

    Duane and Michael…save me a seat at that Bar of the Damned!

  16. Em says:

    Dan, there is delusion ALL over the place – heard about the guy commenting on Trump’s order to fly flags at half staff until August 8th?
    That is 8/8 and, since ‘h’ is the 8th letter of the alpabet, Trump’s directive is s veiled !message to the nazis as…. ?
    8 – 8 stands for H H, which is code for “heil Hitler” … ?

  17. Em says:

    Michael, granny says stop reading comments from those nutty facebook folk. ?

  18. Duane Arnold says:


    Just remember, the first round is on me…?

  19. Captain Kevin says:

    Oh buh-RUH-ther!!!

  20. Paige says:

    I’ve never understood how Christians can transpose the Scriptures about ISRAEL onto the USA… ridiculous…

    Read your Bibles people..the whole thing, in historical context… and check some reliable commentaries while you’re at it…

    The political scene has been corrupt since forever, and will be… Our Lord said ” My kingdom is not of this world”. That works for me.. I don’t have the energy to waste on being passionate about any of it…

    I’m sorry you are being attacked by small minded folk over something this absurd… Guess it goes with the territory.
    Christians….. as John Crist says, “We do some weird stuff”.
    We sure do.

    Do justly. Love mercy. Walk humbly before our God. That’s it.

  21. Steve says:

    ..and then there were 4 blood moons. This is very similar to what Chuck Missler would give in his prophecy updates at CC Philly when I attended. Back then in was Yitzak Ravine when he was assassinated and clearly predicted in a dycrpyted Bible code with date and everything if you had access to his super computer and mathematicians. It was way back then when I started my long journey in discovering fraud, incompetence and mostly arrogance in the leadership.

  22. Em says:

    “If we confess our sins, He os faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”… Sorry fellas, but you’ll have to settle for whatever brew is served in God’s house… hang in there. ?

  23. Jean says:

    I don’t see much difference between all the innovations within the past 200 or so years in prophetic interpretation and eschatology vs. those proposed regarding the doctrines of hell, justification and the atonement.

  24. directambiguity says:


    Did you tell you’re ex-Facebook friend: ‘Though I do not believe Isaiah 45 refers to Trump I do believe God in his sovereignty did establish him as President as per Romans 13:1?’

    That may have saved a friendship.

  25. Michael says:

    No, it didn’t and I did .
    When I said that he may have done so for judgment the party was over.

  26. directambiguity says:

    I thought that’s where it would lead.

  27. Michael says:

    I think the gap between pro and anti Trump people is widening and there are fewer and fewer ways to hold people even somewhat together.
    It wouldn’t take much to bring this whole show down into chaos at this point.

  28. directambiguity says:


  29. Steve says:

    This Bible twisting goes both ways. Seems to be fringe group for this particular case. Anti vs pro Trump is in my opinion not the right way to frame the political divide. The real duvide is about nationalism vs globalism. When Trump is gone there will be others to be the voice for nationalism.

  30. Jean says:


    Globalism seems to be a dirty word on the right. However, if the world is becoming more interconnected (travel, trade, communications, the internet, etc.), then don’t countries need global arrangements to order the interconnectedness? Don’t you think it would be naive to think that America can fence off the rest of the world by our two bordering oceans? Isn’t it naive to think that we are not impacted by what goes on in the rest of the world? Isn’t there a relationship between a countries prosperity and its responsibilities as a global leader? I would say “yes,” because our prosperity in large measure is gained by our participation in the global economy.

  31. Midwife says:

    Yeah, so I had this short discussion with Chuck Missler at Koinonia in North Idaho back in the middle 90s when I kinda confronted him about his buddy Hal Lindsay and his far-stretched prophecy books. Chuck looked sad and shaking his head just said, “Hal Lindsay is tired, very very tired”. That was another moment when one of these guys showed their true colors.

  32. Steve says:

    Yes, the world is more interconnected and everything you say is true. But the globalism that is being espoused by the left is radical in ways we have never seen before. It means the “green new deal” , “global climate” paranoia, “completely open borders”, free college education for the entire world, free health care to the entire world and complete re-write of the entire us constitution and American history and government regulation and regulation and more regulation and a sweeping socialistic agenda to take over the entire world and don’t forget all the taxes that will have to pay for everything. Big corporations will be replaced with big government of the like you have never ever seen before. that’s just for starters.

  33. directambiguity says:


    I think Steve may have a different definition for globalism than you do.

    I think he means Globalism (those pushing for a one-world government, open borders…) vs Nationalism (those pushing for national sovereignty)

    You seem to be describing how sovereign nations interact as the world gets smaller. I’m not sure anyone wants to fence off the world even Trump is negotiating trade deals etc.

  34. Steve says:

    directambiguity, exactly. Trump is no isolationist and has done quite a bit on the world stage.

  35. Trump may be like governor Pete Wilson of California, the last Republican elected to that office (Arnold doesn’t count as he was elected due to his celebrity).

  36. Steve says:

    If one of the radical freshman democrats ever makes it to the presidency, you can kiss America good bye. There won’t be another election. This almost happened with Hillary btw and it is the very reason why there are Trump supporters out there and why this fight is still going on. You need to understand this dynamic to understand why this country is so divided. The left makes this all about Trump but in reality he is just the voice of the hail Mary pass that saved this country from a radical socialistic agenda of the likes we have never seen before.

  37. bob1 says:

    You’re hysterical.

  38. Jerod says:

    “…I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.”

    I think both the left and right respond “Go away, go away, you frighten me!”

    To all my fellow hypocrites – learn to hold some things in tension, for Pete’s sake.

    This is EVERYONE’S fault.

    Smile! God judges you!

  39. Jerod W Hatch says:

    “I would be tempted to think we’re doomed, but I re read those passages about the sovereignty of God…”

    “I make well-being and create calamity;”

    God has a storehouse of other shoes to drop.

  40. shortpolock says:

    It was sad to see the Israeli gov’t mint his image on a coin. Bibi needs to read the passages about leaning on reeds.

  41. Jean says:

    “I think he means Globalism (those pushing for a one-world government, open borders…) vs Nationalism (those pushing for national sovereignty)”

    directambiguity and Steve,

    I hope you’re not learning this stuff from someone’s pulpit.

  42. Steve says:

    Jean, Learning what stuff? This is pretty basic. In fact understanding the tension between the two sides is rather important for unity that transcends politics. We have liberals and conservatives in our congregation.

  43. Jean says:

    Steve, the reason I asked about whether you guys learned “that stuff” from the pulpit is because, while I understand that any number of ridiculous ideas are propagated via social media and the internet (some by foreign actors hoping to sow discord in our country), I would expect Christian pastors to hold to a higher standard of truth when stepping into the pulpit (maybe wishful thinking on my side).

    I also know that these ideas, which are repeated with intensity, take deep root in people’s minds, so I don’t know if it is even possible to shake them loose from someone who holds them. I called these ideas “stuff” as the most respectful word I could think of at the time.

    Look, none of our elected leaders and no candidate for national office that I am aware (including the freshmen house members and Hilary Clinton) has ever to my knowledge proposed a one-world government or open boarders. These are over-the-top slogans, which would be lies, designed to sow division, hatred and fear within our own country among each other. People who propagate such ideas are knowingly or unknowingly harming our nation.

    What would a one world government even look like. Where would it be headquartered? Who would make up it’s leadership? Would it be elected or a dictator? Would it have an army? Under who’s control? I’m sure the purveyors of this nonsense have it all worked out.

  44. Steve says:

    Jean, so you don’t think what AOC has been saying that the world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change is over the top, a lie to sow division and hatred, etc? This is the Green new deal. If the world is going to end in 12 years because of climate change, wouldn’t the Chinese and Russians and Americans and every nation be completely united to stop this existential threat to the world. Prepare yourself because we have 12 years left according to your freshman dem that your are defending.

  45. Jean says:


    Now you’re hysterical. What pray tell does a climate change prediction have to do with one world government or open boarders?

    My comment about the lack of evidence that AOC has a policy proposal for open boarders or one world government is not a defense of everything she has ever said.

    If I had to choose between resurrecting the coal industry and buying into the fiction of “clean coal,” and advocating for green policies that benefit our health, conserve our natural resources, clean up our environment, and put us in the lead in renewable energy technology, I will choose the latter. I understand that doesn’t work very well with dispensational theology.

  46. Steve says:

    Jean,. I’m about as far away from dispensationalism as can be. Now you are either lying or being silly.

  47. Jean says:

    Lying about what? Did I accuse you of something? Are you the only reader here?

  48. Steve says:

    Jean, let’s get something clear. I see zero biblical significance for modern day Isreal. I thought it was clear I was an amilenialist. Why you are calling me a dispentionalist is provacative to say the least.

  49. Jean says:

    I’m not and haven’t.

  50. Steve says:

    Ok. Not sure why you brought it up in blog post addressed to me . Anyhow, if you think about it. AOC has a lot in common with the dispentional prophecy wonks using fear tactics to get their agenda noticed. Think about. 12 years the world is going to end.

  51. Michael says:

    These discussions are fruitless.
    I’ve been involved in migrant and border issues for a long time and still haven’t met my first open borders advocate.
    I’m sure they’re out there, but they don’t represent most of us.
    Doesn’t matter, people just yell louder.
    AOC is a freshman rep with more ideas then sense…not a big factor in my thinking.
    She is an easy target if you don’t want to wrestle with or solve any issues.
    That is the whole point….neither side wants to solve anything, just grasp power.
    They both do so with extreme invective and ridiculous claims…to keep you all busy.
    It seems to work…

  52. Josh says:

    “renewable energy technology… I understand that doesn’t work very well with dispensational theology.”

    *is about to comment, then reads the above*
    *shakes head*
    *Walks around for ten minutes, shaking head*
    *Finally Comments*


  53. Jean says:

    I spend no time thinking about AOC. I do admit to probably spending too much time worrying about Trump. It isn’t really so much about the things he says on Twitter or at his rallies, where I think you get a more candid Trump than you get from teleprompter Trump (though I empathize with those he demonizes and am concerned about the unstable people who may take him so literally that they are tempted to commit heinous crimes).

    My primary concern with Trump is what he actually does, his executive orders, his appointments and the legislation he endorses and signs. Aside from a few things that I agree with him on, for which I don’t begrudge him one bit, he is IMO doing our nation great long term harm, and so I feel concerned more for my children and grandchildren than for myself. They will inherit and have to live with his legacy.

    I’ve always, all my adult life, tried to vote and hold policy positions with the interests of my children (and future grandchildren, Lord willing) foremost in mind; I’ve tried to put their interests before my one selfish desires. To live in God’s blessing of “be fruitful and multiply,” mankind must care for our loved ones, raise them in the faith, educate them to be productive citizens, and care for our nation, its economy and our environment, so that life can be sustained. The sovereignty of God does not mean that He does not partner with us in some hidden, mysterious way, to bring about His purposes.

  54. Michael says:

    I have tried to confine my worry over Trump to my godson and whatever offspring he has.
    If history is any measure we’re creating new terrorists every time we rip families apart…386 new “orphans” yesterday.

    The new gun narrative is that everyone should have one…because there is no hope of ever having a civil society again where one can feel safe going to the grocery store.
    My thought is that will work out as well as everyone having a car…except minor accidents with guns usually kill someone.

    The overall narrative is that there are whole groups that you should hate and fear…and be ready to kill.

    I mourn because I have no way to shield the boy from my generations stupidity and lusts.

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Since we are speaking about dispensational theology, didn’t it begin the same way as this Cyrus / Trump stuff?
    Some guys come up with crazy biblical assumptions, try to force bible verses into the equations and balloon test it?
    The only difference is that there was no social media to blow it up early. Dispensationalism moved through some British churches to gain footing, then slipped over to America in the mid 19th century to the burned over district where people believe anything (see the birth of Mormonism, JWs, Christian Science etc at the same time.

    Give the Cyrus / Trump thing 50 yrs and people in great numbers will swear it’s in the Bible.

    Off to teach my class – but not this stuff 🙂

  56. Josh says:

    (see the birth of Mormonism, JWs, Christian Science etc at the same time.”

    LCMS founded in…1847. You might want to retire that critique.

  57. Jean says:


    The LCMS is a synod, not a religion or eschatology.

  58. Josh says:

    Jean – Founded at the same time as all the others MLD speaks of.

  59. Michael says:

    The reality is that dispensationalism is as “biblical” as any other sect, because the bible lends itself to a broad number of interpretations.

    To say that the one you chose is the only true one is either really arrogant or really silly…I’m sure Rome said the same things about Lutherans as MLD said about dispys…

  60. Josh says:

    One could easily say “Dispensationalism” is a hermeneutic grid, not a theology, religion, or eschatology.”

    But who cares? You guys will smear dispensationalists at every turn with no concern for truth, so I’ll just lump Mormons and LCMS right in the same old basket.

  61. Jean says:


    The religion that Walther and others brought to America was the same religion they practiced in Germany. They relocated their churches. They founded no new doctrines. In case you missed it, MLD was referring to the birth of new religions. In addition, he referred to how dispensationalism slipped into some existing churches and converted them. These phenomena have no correspondence with folks immigrating to another country and bringing their religion with them.

  62. Josh says:

    Of course not, Jean. Just coincidence that they sprung up at the same time.

  63. Michael says:


    I get your point,but there is no real analogy there.
    Lutherans had been around a very long time before the LCMS came here.

  64. Josh says:

    “Lutherans had been around a very long time before the LCMS came here.”

    I disagree. LCMS is a distinctive group. While they share traits with other Lutherans, I think they enjoy being completely separate from the rest of us.

  65. Jean says:

    “The reality is that dispensationalism is as “biblical” as any other sect, because the bible lends itself to a broad number of interpretations.” – I won’t argue, but can’t disagree more.

    “To say that the one you chose is the only true one is either really arrogant or really silly…I’m sure Rome said the same things about Lutherans as MLD said about dispys…” – Faith and trust must have an object, or it’s just a guess. Christianity IMO is not a guessing game. IMO dispensational theology affects more than eschatology; it affects Christology, atonement theology and justification, so it’s not for me a guessing game.

  66. Josh says:

    But Michael, my real point is that the critiques against dispensationalsim are ludicrous. In this thread I learned that I am against renewable energy.

    My replies are silly, but not as silly as that.

  67. Michael says:


    They are a subgroup of a well established group, not an entirely new theology.
    Lutherans have been separatists from the beginning…

  68. Michael says:


    I get it that you think the LCMS has the corner on truth.
    That used to be maddening , but I just alternately find it sad and funny these days.

  69. Josh says:

    Still, my critique stands. MLD bashes Dispensationalism based on a time-frame related to the Restoration movement, but dispensationalism was around long before then. If I am implicated with the mormons based on that alone, so is he.

  70. Michael says:


    Back in the day, dispys railed against environmental concerns because all things were here to use and it was all going to burn anyway.
    Sat under a lot of that teaching.
    I’m guessing many have become more enlightened since then…

  71. Jean says:

    “While they share traits with other Lutherans, I think they enjoy being completely separate from the rest of us.”

    Josh, Lutherans mourn the division of the church and pray for unity. Luther was excommunicated. Division is all over Christendom. You make it sound like the LCMS is the only Christian denomination that has distinctive theology; I can assure you that is not the case. The vast majority of Christendom has their distinctives which prevent them from sharing table and pulpit fellowship with denominations who hold to other teachings.

  72. Josh says:

    “IMO dispensational theology affects more than eschatology; it affects Christology, atonement theology and justification, so it’s not for me a guessing game.”

    This is good. So I’m assuming you disagree with the Christology of dispensationalists.

    We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The second person of the holy trinity. He was with God, and He was God. He was born of a virgin. He died on the cross and rose on the third day. He is the only way to salvation.

    Which part of that do you take issue with?

  73. Michael says:

    I’m an Anglican.
    We commune any baptized believer.

  74. Jean says:


    Two things:

    (1) I’ve tried to discuss dispensational theology with you in the past, but often when I bring up a dispensational teaching, a dispensationalist will say, “Oh, I don’t believe that,” so I can never pin them down on a teaching they will defend.

    (2) This is Michael’s blog and his thread and I have a feeling, he would not enjoy and extended discussion of dispensationalism. So, unless I read otherwise, I am not going to inflame him today.

  75. Josh says:

    Oh good grief, you brought it up.

    ” I bring up a dispensational teaching, a dispensationalist will say, “Oh, I don’t believe that,””

    That just means you don’t know what you are talking about. You should just listen to the dispensationalist and learn from him about his own beliefs.

    I’m really curious what is defective about the Christology I mentioned earlier.

  76. Michael says:

    Dispensationalism is not one monolithic set of teachings.
    You know that if you learn about the sect from their own members instead of someone trying to show how his sect is far superior.

    If you guys want to go at it, I don’t care…it’s fruitless, but it’s your time.

  77. Josh says:

    Lots of fruitless things are fun 🙂

    Look, I just thought the renewable energy comment was a head-scratcher. I’m sure some dispensationalist at some time has said something crazy, but I assure you, it is possible to be concerned about environmental matters, and see that God has dealt with men in different ways at different times throughout history.

    Of course, MLD then jumps in to lump us in with the Mormons because of the timing, but LCMS came about at the exact same time.

    The Jean says that Dispies have a faulty Christology…which lets be honest…that’s one of the few things that is actually damnable. I listed my Christology, hoping Jean would correct me in my errors.

    But it’s all good. Dispensationalism is just a grid to understand different times in the bible. I have often found it useful for understanding a passage, but if you don’t, discard it. It is not necessary for salvation.

  78. Michael says:

    The farther I get from my dispy roots, the weirder it seems to me.
    Luckily, I was totally free to embrace other things.
    Josh probably thinks my affection for the Anglican tradition is weird.
    However weird we think the other is, we fully recognize each other as family.
    In good families, everyone is a little weird…

  79. Josh says:

    RE: Globalism / One World Government:

    I see the future requiring a relaxation of border laws. With connectivity and human migration on growing scales, it will just become inevitable unless you want to plant your army all around your border and go to war constantly.

    That will obviously cause issues with enforcing laws, etc. I think the local jurisdictions will have to become more adequate at law enforcement.

  80. Josh says:

    “Josh probably thinks my affection for the Anglican tradition is weird.”

    Not at all. I disagree with some your beliefs, but I think it is the right fit at the right time for you. Honestly, dispensationalism is such a side issue for me. It is for MOST of the people I’ve dealt with and learned from. It is a tool that I can use when it is helpful, or use a different tool when it is more helpful. But I get that a lot of cooks have come and gone under the dispy banner, so I understand the leariness.

  81. Michael says:

    Here’s the key to border issues.
    Everybody ready?
    You put your resources into helping make the places they come from livable.
    That’s it.
    Very few really want to leave home…

  82. Cash says:

    Michael: “neither side wants to solve anything, just grasp power.
    They both do so with extreme invective and ridiculous claims…to keep you all busy.
    It seems to work”…So true. We (and I do mean “we”) are becoming a nation of useful idiots. Useful to those who crave power and lust for their own glorification. I fear for my country..I fought for it, and I will ever defend the Constitution of the United States. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to pick up arms again to kill fellow Americans. But that is what many right wingers are planning to do already. It’s known as the III percenters, a “militia” of armed right wing “patriots” who are advocating armed resistance against the government, not if, but when, the government tries to take their guns away, which is never going to happen, IMO. Call it what it is. It’s evil, and it is in the spirit of antichrist, and Trump is a type of the antichrist, in my view. Filled with hate and invective, how any true believers in Christ can believe the man follows the Lord of Love is beyond me. I so agree with Paige…do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with GOD. Now I ask you brothers and sisters, does that describe Donald Trump as a person? But we know believers are to test the spirits, to see if they are from God. 1 John 4:1. In fact the whole book of 1 John is a great one to read for the times we are in. 1 John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

  83. Michael says:


    Well said my friend…always good to see you here…

  84. Cash says:

    Michael, thanks. That means a lot to me.

  85. Jean says:


    I will post what I believe to be the Christological implications of dispensationalism, by sharing an excerpt from a study which reflects my beliefs. I want to provide you with the Scriptural support, so it will get hung up in moderation. If Michael chooses to release it, you may enjoy reading it.

  86. Jean says:

    “Fifth, the interpreter of Old Testament prophecy should especially keep in mind the Christological focus of Scripture. The Old Testament prophets were both ‘foretellers’ and ‘forthtellers.’ They were preachers of the covenant, proclaiming the Law and the Gospel to their original hearers. Even their eschatological predictions were given not to provide unrelated bits of information or to satisfy curiosity about the future, but to lead their hearers to repentance and faith. Therefore, the interpreter must relate all prophecy, including eschatological prophecy, to the covenant, to Law and Gospel, and ultimately to Christ. The Old Testament dare not be treated as a self-contained entity to be read apart from Christ and the New Testament. This would amount to treating the Old Testament as a non-Christian Jewish book (c.f. 2 Cor. 3:12-16). To insist, for instance, on the basis of Ezekiel 40-46 that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that the sacrificial system will be reinstituted is to disregard Christ who is the New Temple (Matt. 12:6; John 2:19-22; Rev. 21:22) and the all-sufficient Sacrifice (Hebrews 9-10, especially 10:18). The Mosaic covenant with its sacrificial system prefigures the new covenant in Christ (Jer. 31:31-34; 1 Cor. 11:25; Heb. 8:13). Now that the antitype has come, one cannot expect the reestablishment of the type (Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 10:1).

    “Sixth, Old Testament Israel prefigured Christ and His church as the New Israel. Christ is the New Israel, Israel reduced to one. He recapitulates and fulfills Old Testament Israel’s history by obeying God perfectly where Israel disobeyed (Hos. 11:1; Matt. 2:15; Deut. 6:13,16; 8:2-3; Matt. 4:1-11). ‘The descendants of Abraham failed and Israel’s burden in its entirety came to Jesus, whom God designated as His Israel by calling Him out of Egypt, by placing the world’s burdens on Him, and by raising Him to life.’ Christ is the promised seed of Abraham in whom all the nations of the earth are blessed (Gen. 12:3,7; Gal. 3:8,14-16).

    “Since Christ is the New Israel, all those who believe in Him also become the New Israel, Abraham’s descendants (Gal. 3:29; 6:16; Rom. 9:6-8,24-26; 4:16-17; Ephesians 2; 1 Pet. 2:9-10). Christ began to reconstitute Israel by first restoring the faithful remnant of the Jews (Matt. 10:6; 15:24; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8; 2:5-42; 3:25-26). Then His mission moved out to the Gentiles so that they too might be incorporated into the people of God (Rom. 11:17-24; Acts 10; 13:46-48; 15:14-18; Gal. 3:14,27-29; Eph. 2:11-22). Therefore, the Christian church is Israel restored, heir to the promise made to Abraham (Gal. 3:29).”

    – The End Times: A Study on Eschatology and Millenialism: A Report of the Commission on Theology and Church Relations of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod September 1989.

  87. @Midwife.

    Missler is someone I found increfobly intriguing. I liked him a lot but had a feeling there was sone sort of fear that came over him late in life. The New Zeeland move left me confused. It was almost like NZ was some some of final defense.

  88. EricL says:

    This is a fun! I haven’t played a good game of Bible Gnostic Numerology for decades. So Psalm 45 is a prophecy about his marriage (I’m not sure which one???). In Jeremiah 45 Trump is called Baruch, and it predicts the fall of the USA- but don’t worry, even as we get uprooted, God will keep the president safe. We’ll skip Genesis 45 (some guy named Joe is getting all huggy with his bros, so that numbering must be some kind of plot by someone campaigning for the other side). Ezekiel 45 tells us that Prince Don should get a large portion of our country’s land on either side of the holy allotment… now if we could just figure out where that is… Google suggests Charleston, South Carolina. 🙂

  89. Who was the first to identify the President as Cyrus? It was only shortly before, during the 2016 campaign, that Senator Cruz was prophesied to be one of the great Christian kings.

  90. DavidM says:

    You’re lucky to be “unfriended”. With friends like this . . . .

  91. Josh says:

    Jean – that is good push-back. Thanks for posting it.

    Two issues there: Re-instituting OT sacrifice, and Christ (the Church) as the New Israel. First, I should say that neither of these are believed by ALL dispensationalists. Some reject both ideas, and are still dispies. Still, these are common among my people, and I won’t pretend that they aren’t.

    I think the main issue is still an error by the authors of your study in raising secondary issues to first issue importance. For instance:
    “To insist, for instance, on the basis of Ezekiel 40-46 that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that the sacrificial system will be reinstituted is to disregard Christ who is the New Temple.”
    That COULD be the case, and certainly, that would be a condemnable offense. But couldn’t it also be the case that some brothers just misunderstand a difficult passage? In looking at the Ezekiel passage, I absolutely see why some think it means that the sacrificial system will be put in place, once again. That does not make sense to me, and if it were done it would have to be in some sort of memorial sense as Jesus is the one sacrifice for all, and the OT sacrifice was just a picture to show the true sacrifice that was coming that really did take away sin. But I see it there in Ezekiel, and i understand why some interpret it that way. I don’t think sacrifice will start again in Christ’s Kingdom, but I’ll be honest: I don’t know what to make of those details in Ezekiel. The brothers I know who believe that have sufficient Christology, but have a poor understanding of a difficult OT passage.

    I think the second issue is more of a misunderstanding of the dispy belief, but I am sure that some follow it. Most would agree with the passage from your study.

  92. Josh says:

    Nathan, I don’t know who was first. I think Metaxas was drawing parallels, that God used a sinner like Cyrus, and could use a guy like Trump. The Fruitcakes seem to have ran with it.

  93. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, I think you missed what I was pointing towards and got hung up because you identify with one of those groups / ideologies.
    My point was look how those independent thoughts sprung up from whole nothing and because they were not squashed in the beginning, after almost 200 yrs the world considers them normative. The Cyrus / Trump thing could have the same legs 50 yrs from now.

    Now back about 20 years ago Heaven’s Gate, also known as Hale Bop, came just like the others, but they went in ridicule and death.

    But just for conversationala laughs, wasn’t it a 15 yr old girl I think her name was MacDonald, who had the vision of dispensationalism and passed it on to the guy who passed it on to Darby?
    Hey, Joseph Smith was 15 when he had his Moroni vision. 🙂

  94. Josh says:

    I don’t think dispensationalism sprung up from nothing any more than LCMS sprung up from nothing. I got your point, you didn’t get mine.

    I don’t defend Darby, or even Schofield, though he was much more important to the spreading of the ideas. But Darby condemned Macdonald as demon-possessed. There have been many theories to discredit him over the years, and that is just a false one.

  95. Jean says:


    Let me give you one last perspective (a not exclusively Lutheran one) on this topic:

    The Old Testament was the Bible of Jesus and the Apostles, and for at least 30 years after Christ died, it was the only Scripture in use by the Church. When Paul or Peter went preaching in the synagogues or other venues of the Jews and Gentiles during this early period, the only Scripture they had was the Old Testament, and from the OT they preached Christ.

    In the OT, the Apostles and early early fathers read the stories of Israel, the OT worship, and the OT promises as all finding their fulfillment in Christ. In other words, God kept all his promises uttered by the OT prophets by sending His Son.

    For example, when you read “in the last days” in Acts or “new creation,” “firstfruits,” and “end of the ages” in Paul’s letters or the allusions to new creation in the Gospel of John, you will not fully understand these passages unless you see the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus as fulfilling Isaiah’s visions in Chapters 60-65.

    When St. John writes that “Now on the first day of the week” (the 8th day) and that Mary M. mistook Jesus for “the gardener,” I would invite you to see the risen Lord Jesus as the firstfruits of new creation (the 2nd Adam), that the original creation was judged in His passion and the sins of the world were laid on Him.

  96. Josh.
    I understand the Darby/Macdonald link to have been an intentional anti-PB slander. Any person with experiance in Plymouth Brethren groups know they recoil from manifestations. The Macdonald story was I think propagated twice, and primarily 1860-70’s.

    I have read Macdonald utterences and found them generic and vague. They do not represent Dispensational idealogy at all.

    Darby was a gifted lawyer. He had the education to create a coherent doctrinal structure. A young commoner girl does not create one of the four historical Eschatologies. Especially while in an incoherent state

  97. Muff Potter says:

    The Bible is to Fundagelical Christianity what the Qu’ran is to Wahhabi Islam.
    The trajectories are strikingly similar.

  98. Duane Arnold says:

    Recently, been watching ‘Stranger Things’… somewhat reminds me of this thread…?

  99. Josh says:

    Jean – I agree with everything in your last post.

  100. Jean says:


    I’m very happy that we were able to share on this topic here today. We share a lot in common. The Lord is good.

  101. directambiguity says:


    No, I didn’t hear that from a pulpit, I just believed you and Steve were using different definitions for globalism.

  102. directambiguity says:


    No, I didn’t hear that from a pulpit I just believed you and Steve were using different definitions for globalism.

    *sorry if this comment shows up twice, I think my first one got hung up.

  103. Midwife says:

    Nathan Priddis ~

    I left Coeur d’Alene in 1999 so I never even knew they had moved to New Zealand. When Koinonia House was being built my teenage daughter Havilah got to know a bunch of “kids” including Chuck and Nancy’s daughter, Lisa. It was a small community at that time. Chuck was in the throws of developing Koinonia House publications (and buildings) and most of all the Y2K2 movement for 2000. It may very well be that by the time they left he was dealing with anxieties. Y2K2 was a bust and I don’t think K-House manifested any great prophecies, books or churches. He had to be tired. Chuck was interesting for a lecture or two but to listen to him on a regular basis would have been quite tiring. What I regret to this day was my daughter Havilah’s involvement with a Calvary Church there when she went off to Thailand because they needed a 1:1 female to female caregiver for a young teen with I believe cerebrospinal deformities. My daughter ended up covered in impetigo and at Bangkok hospital. I was shut out of receiving any more information and phone numbers to contact her and truly emotionally broke down waiting for her to return. It was a cruel move to play on a Mom even though Havilah had just turned 18. They seem to always “take them” when they turned 18. We were closer before that experience. To this day I don’t like or trust that man who they call “pastor” in Post Falls. I am praying to forgive several monsters I’ve come across while involved in the Cc or evangelical churches. New Zealand must have been pretty but I was surprised that they would move so far away from Lisa, their daughter.

  104. Josh says:

    Jean, I’m sure we do. I too appreciate being able to carefully see the other beliefs today.

  105. I’ve heard things about Coeur d’Alene, including some racism there. I might have to do a long vacation there before settling down to retire in idaho. I’ve only driven near there though i spent time in Lewiston/Clarkston (a dry, desolate, depressing place). My mother was both on the Ft. Hall Rez. Maybe i shouldn’t say that even if it’s obvious I’m not entirely white. Not sure about Twin Falls either. Sounds like CC might be good to stay away from there.

  106. shortpolock says:

    I had somewhat of the same experience with campus crusade. They asked me in my very early twenties when I was eager, lonely, without community, and after a short term mission with them in Algeciras, if I wanted to become a missionary in Dubai while earning a BA in Arabic Studies. I absolutely loved my short time with them, so I was pretty ecstatic. Then
    God had me take a good look at myself, my issues with, well,

    and I passed it up. I think there were many more reasons He had for telling me to go home, especially in light of the “loose” practices many evangelical organisations adhere to and the manner in which I was recruited.

    I’ve never heard anything specifically about CRU, but I wouldn’t be surprised either.

  107. Midwife says:

    The New Victor ~

    I moved to Coeur d’Alene, ID in 1992 and we bought a small fixer-up house just a few blocks up (in town) from the lake. We arrived there just in time for the infamous Ruby Ridge stand off between the Weaver family and the federal government. It lasted almost 2 weeks and left me shaking in my boots worried about registering my Jewish named daughter in the local public High School. I was in a print shop and a white man who looked like he came tumbling out of the mountains started screaming at me about my license plate being from California and how I “should go back to where I came from”. Imagine my shock being a white California blonde woman wondering where he thought I was from?! So this was our introduction to white racism and Idaho (any state north of California and wooded would do). Almost as soon as the feds killed most of the Weaver family, the hype calmed and went underground only to resurface to a new and fascinating story of quieting white racism in North Idaho. But I digress! I want you to know that North Idaho is absolutely beautiful. If it wasn’t for my genetic love for the coast and need for year round humidity and fog, I would be back living in NI in a heartbeat. Cd’A has massively changed and the town (in my opinion) has lost its beautiful simplicity and has gone the way of California subdivisions and strip malls, MUCH more expensive I should add. My favorite area if pretty far north up in the Priest Lake area and you can still buy land there. It’s not near as cheap as it was in the 90s but so so beautiful. I dream of Priest Lake often. I think you would find differing views and experiences having a native background and living there. There’s support and respect for natives and at the same time continued racism. It could be a problem if you bought property bordering a religious apocalyptic compound filled with angry white men wearing red trucker hats… you know where this is headed I’m sure. There are far and few remaining Arian Nation types around but I wouldn’t wear a shirt that says “I’m a Zionist”, ever. Seriously though, the seasons are distinct and the Bitterroot mountains are a gorgeous sub-range of the stark massive Rockies that jut in and out of view if you are traveling deep in North Idaho close to Montana. Half a days trip will take you to the magical Glacier National Park for unending drives and/or hiking travels you’ve just never seen before and you will love. This from a girl who spent much of her 20s hiking the Sierra’s and devoted to the wonder and brilliance of the creators art work in granite stone. Idaho has pretty relaxed building codes too and that attracts lots of home builders. So no matter your interests for retirement, North Idaho definitely delivers. Be sure to visit in the fall, winter and spring though, between ice storms, blizzards, supercell squall line thunder storms and wind… wind out of nowhere and a force to reckon with, you will see the heart of North Idaho. Another world from south of Idaho’s lakes region.

  108. Midwife says:

    Short Polock ~

    I knew people who where approached by Campus Crusade in college in the 1970s but we had already dived into “Christian communal living” communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Our church cult was more focused on attracting young single people to join our church and forget about education or world traveling! Like I said, 18 year olds are prime property to convert and work in these “ministries or para-churches for these wolves and PFM solidifies the truth that this is still the MO. I am so grateful for this blog and Michaels commitment to keep the church cult abuse issue out in the light and his willingness to monitor the whole thing. I’m so glad you stopped yourself and what sounds like you focused on what you really needed in your life rather than run away with those people who would chain you to fundamentalism and oppressive teachings. I hope life is going well for you now and these programs are at your back no longer getting your attention.

  109. Midwife says:

    The New Victor ~

    Oh! Be sure to keep your head down and don’t go east of Coeur d’Alene either! Kellogg, ID left me in a depressive lurch in 1992 when visiting there. You get a full view of what silver strip mining can do to beautiful mountains. It’s just a short trip to Montana anyways so just forget about it.

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