Kevin’s Conversations: After Charlottesville

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106 Responses

  1. Josh the Baptist says:

    Kevin – your 10th and 11th paragraphs are “yeah, but”.

  2. Descended says:

    Skinheads and those with similar ideals are putzes and other Yiddish derogatory terms, deservedly and without reservation.

    But I stopped reading this at “terroristic”.

    He showed up ready to fight and ran like a long-tailed cat from a room full of rocking chairs. He ran over a lady in the process. That is murder, probably closer to manslaughter since he was under threat of violence. Not terrorism.

  3. Xenia says:

    Great essay, Kevin.

    As to fighting the Nazis…. I tend towards a more pacifist POV but when the Nazis come to town, I am glad there are some courageous enough to fight them. If only people in Germany had the foresight to fight off the Nazis before it was too late.

  4. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    I see how it can be seen as that.

    My primary focus of the article was to bring it to what I wrote in the last few paragraphs about focusing on problems caused closer to us. So I tried to point out examples on both “sides” of the aisle where there are problems and the mishandling of those problems just worsens things. Since Charlottesville was the main topic to use for discussion, I did spend much more discussion time speaking to the point of primary blame. My intent was not to include a “yeah, but” because I wasn’t trying to argue anything in favor of one political side or the other.

  5. Kevin H says:

    Descended,

    You can choose to stop reading at the use of the term, “terroristic”, but that just seems to be splitting hairs over the importance of the whole circumstance. Using the word “terroristic” for what happened certainly fits some definition of the word, including how U.S. law defines domestic terrorism. Getting caught up on the word would seem to be straining at a gnat in the whole scope of what happened in Charlottesville and the reaction to it.

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I will say it up front – all racism, anti antisemitism is bad.

    Now we need to discuss who the Nazi racists are. Last week I posted an article where the son of Benjamin Netanyahu said that Jews and Israel have a much greater fear from AntiFa than they do of the old guard Neo Nazis who he said are dying out.

    My only point, if we are going to call people out – let’s be accurate and complete. Please do not favor one hate group over the other.

  7. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Xenia.

    Yes, it is a tough call knowing when and how and to what degree we should fight back against such terrible groups. The example of the Nazis in Germany, in hindsight, would be one where the wait to fight back took too long.

  8. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    In the context of Charlottesville, our focus needs to be on the white supremacist racists and the neo-Nazis with them.

    In other contexts, it is fine to focus on all racist groups. And no, we should not favor one over another, although like I said in my article, we can have greater empathy and understanding why some exist more so than others.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Kevin, I know this probably was not your intent, but we should be more accepting of the reason that AntiFa hates and give no slack to why a skinhead hates?

  10. Kevin H says:

    No, I’m not saying being more accepting. My words were understanding and empathy. However, this might not even apply to Antifa. I do not know or understand enough about them to speak authoritatively there. I am thinking more of black groups where black people have undergone great oppression throughout the history of our country.

  11. Josh the Baptist says:

    Antifa is something made up that you guys have only read about on the internet.

    I’ve been running into KKK and Neo-Nazis my entire life in North Carolina.

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – “Antifa is something made up that you guys have only read about on the internet.”

    When they build a university in NC (which may be some years off) you will meet AntiFa. 😉

  13. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    Antifa is certainly not easy to pinpoint and do not have anywhere near the size or history of the KKK or neo-Nazis. But recent history of actions, including by some who claim the title of Antifa, would very much suggest that they are real and not made up. They are not a “nothing” or purely a conspiracy theory made up by the Right.

  14. Descended says:

    Well, okay, Kevin, I hear that, but the use of the term in this context fits the progressive narrative being bullied about (is he charged with domestic terrorism? ) I got incensed too easily. Apologies.

  15. Josh the Baptist says:

    IF Antifa is a real problem, and not one made up to divert from recent events, then when and where did you first hear about them?

    First time for me is in the last month, from people on the internet, in the context that if we condemn Nazis we also have to condemn Antifa.

    In fact, that is the only context that I have heard about them.

  16. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD, is Antifa building Universities? I don’t understand that quip.

  17. Xenia says:

    Knowledge of Antifa is so recent that when they first came up, none of the TV anchors even knew how to pronounce it.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – if you lived on the West Coast you would know. They populate all the California Universities – their current ruse was to block free speech and burn down surrounding businesses.

    As I said, the Jews and Israel seem them as a real threat – but even they are being silenced.

  19. Kevin H says:

    Descended,

    Apologies accepted, although it’s not really a big deal.

    The car driver has been charged with murder so far. I have read speculation at various places about him possibly also getting charged with terrorism. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has said that it meets the definition of domestic terrorism.

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    Kevin

    A good and thoughtful piece. I might take issue with one or two small points, but the thrust of your argument, in my opinion, is sound.

    I am realizing more and more how little we understand (along with most Americans) how deeply racism is embedded in American soil. I live in Indiana. In the 1920s the two-thirds of the state legislature and the governor were members of the KKK. The state fair in Indianapolis in those years had a cross burning as its closing event. Today, I have acquaintances that are members of militias here in the state. They have loads of semi-automatic weapons up to and including .50 cal. tripod mounted machine guns. They are racist in the extreme (the Indy 5000 Gun Show used to sell targets with Pres. Obama’s profile). They are also convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they are supported by the current President whom they believe will call them into “active service”.

    I understand your concern about the “other side”, but in the several protests I’ve attended and participated in, I have never seen a firearm in evidence –

    Personally, I sometimes think we flatter the neo-nazis and the KKK by ascribing any real or sincere political motive to what they are doing. They are a criminal element in our society, pure and simple, using the politics of race and hate to engage in their anti-social and thuggish behavior. I’m not sure how we cross that divide…

  21. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    As Xenia said, this current Antifa movement is pretty new so it’s just now getting established as being known by name in our culture.

    Here is an article which provides more detail. And this is from an organization that is not conservative or even conservative-leaning.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

  22. Anne says:

    For the sake of clarity, it is helpful to distinguish between terms like racism, prejudice and discrimination. Racism comes from a position or desire for a position of power that would deny rights, privileges, even Life to people of different skin colors or ethnicities. That is why you often hear people say reverse racism is impossible because minorities in the US have not the power to deny legal, financial, health, educational etc privilege to others.

    Whites do experience racism in other nonwhite countries where they are visiting. What is more often experienced between different groups is attitudes of prejudice and discrimination and of course their close cousin, bigotry. The distinctions are important. First in understanding the concept of institutional racism which we all as the majority race have benefited from since the inception of the nation, even if we ourselves are not prejudiced or discriminatory against minorities.

    People of color easily suspect though, we may also be racist, (perhaps rightfully so) when we are overly defensive or protective of the institutional racism that still threatens their literal lives and thier ability to live under the promises of the Constitution and state laws as equally as their white neighbors.

  23. Descended says:

    JosH, I heard about Antifa last year as they were causing property damage at universities in Nor. Cal.

  24. Descended says:

    MLD

    It is very interesting that current events has now started swirling around two amalgamous groups who despise Jews.

  25. Descended says:

    And I might add it was because Ben Shapiro was speaking and they were beating people trying to enter the venue on campus.

  26. Kevin H says:

    Duane,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I do think the amount of extremist racist/violent groups that would identify to be on the Right in some manner outweighs those who identify to be on the Left in some manner. Historically, it’s not even close.

    I do not doubt your experiences and learnings at all. But I also can’t ignore the stories and testimonies I have heard of those who have experienced violence/racism from those on the Left, especially in most recent times. It seems as some of the extremists on the Right have felt emboldened by Trump to make their presence better known and felt, a resulting reaction on the Left has also occurred where people have come out in droves to oppose Trump and those they see as being with him, including some extremists.

    As for attempting to cross the divide with those of the KKK and neo-Nazis, I have no easy answers.

  27. Anne says:

    Also the Antifa movement in the US is not new (even in current form) gets conflated with what is also known as black bloc, and unfortunately because of tradition of all black, masking etc, is a prime infiltration point for agent provocateurs, untrained, unaffiliated youth just looking for excitement. The extremists to be fair, on the far right face the same challenge. And a photo of someone committing a bad action wearing a Black Lives Matter t- shirt does not represent the work of a whole movement.

    I truly enjoy Kevin, Duane, and Michael’s posts and everyone’s discussion and pondering beyond the sound bites of the media towards communication and understanding. These aren’t easy times but the attitudes of grace, understanding and compassion I see predominantly strived for here are encouraging.

  28. Descended says:

    “I do think the amount of extremist racist/violent groups that would identify to be on the Right in some manner outweighs those who identify to be on the Left in some manner. Historically, it’s not even close.”

    Show me racist democracy. Now show me the racist, xenophobic Socialist Nazi states, Communist states, and Islamo-fascist theocracies. THAT’S not even close

  29. Kevin H says:

    Anne,

    There is importance to correctly defining and using terms. I won’t quibble with how you define racism and the other terms.

    The bottom line for me in what I was trying to convey is no matter if it is racism, discrimination, bigotry, etc., it is all wrong and should be opposed and should not be accepted, overlooked, or minimized in the spirit of partisan politics. And if anything, we are most effective in opposing these elements when they would claim to be on “our” side.

  30. Kevin H says:

    Anne,

    And thanks for your kind words in # 27.

  31. Kevin H says:

    Descended,

    I should have said “historically in the context of American history”.

  32. John 20:29 says:

    this was an outstanding post – bravo, Kevin! … one thing that i think we who are Believers have got to come to terms with is how to take a stand without joining ANY of these mobs… they may start out joining hands with those they perceive as like-minded to support their stand against what is honestly seen by them as wrong… but it was a mob of possibly good people that were swayed to call that compassion be shown to a criminal and crucify the Christ…
    now i’ll go back and read the comments, maybe someone knows how we can take a righteous stand without joining a mob

  33. Descended says:

    Anne

    No, one T-shirt does not speak for a movement. How about hundreds?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQXmnMr_w8

  34. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Em.

  35. Erunner says:

    Xenia @ 3 ” If only people in Germany had the foresight to fight off the Nazis before it was too late.”

    My Grandfather fought for Germany during WW1. Thankfully he and his family made it to China in 1940.

    The sad thing was other relatives chose to stay and they died as a result.

    Germany was their home. The idea of leaving not only your home but your country had to weigh heavily on so many. The thought that “nothing will happen to us” and thinking Hitler could not be that type of monster lulled them into a false sense of security I believe.

    And out of all that evil I was born is something I will always ponder.

    Sadly it wasn’t just the Jews who were caught up in the demonic reign of Hitler.

    Can we learn the lessons shown throughout history and even now? I confess I have little hope for that.

  36. John 20:29 says:

    as i read everyone’s thots on the subject… i think we need to quit looking for labels like Antifa, or Nazi or KKK… what we need to focus on is hate – and the destructive, violent behavior resulting from it – wherever it shows up…
    when one of my daughters was in college she had a friend who’d been bussed to a black school district when integration first began… he told of regularly being beaten up at his bus stop by the students that he was supposed to be integrating with and no one cared or did anything because we were supposed to understand the bottled up hatred there… social engineering does have consequences – if Jesus couldn’t perfect the world, what makes us think we can…
    it’s hate that we need to focus our lasers on … IMNSHO

  37. Duane Arnold says:

    Although this speech is from 1968, it is sadly still relevant today. I think it also speaks to some of the issues being discussed…

    https://youtu.be/9JnbBW488nc

  38. Anne says:

    Yes that is as disturbing as neonazis chanting blood and soil in VA. I can categorically state that those chanting that in that particular March do not represent the vision or values of the BLM movement. That is truly a sad example of the angry mob mentality that often takes over what begins as peaceful protests. Leaders of BLM and other groups will speak well to the issues earlier at rallies before a march. It always seems to happen the later it gets at night. The women who founded and currently organize BLM across the nation state nonviolence as a core principle.

    An example I have seen in protesting for police accountability is that early in the day the actions are dominated by mostly peaceful nonviolent protesters. As time goes on, the mood changes to F the police, All cops are bastards, folks instigating hate, taunting physically towards the police etc. My cue to leave. Now I avoid completely mainly working through city council meetings, letter writing etc. I will attend memorial rallies for victims of police violence etc but once it switches over to March or hate I have to go.

    I think the same error is made when so many lefties paint people on the right with a racist or the racist label. One reason I so appreciate the thoughtfulness and tone of the articles and discussions here lately. Communication and pondering the hard questions is key.

  39. Anne says:

    Meant to say racist or fascist label…

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I was looking at the AntiFa mugshots after the earlier trouble in Portland. I will say that AntiFa has hotter looking women than the white supremacists ladies I see in their mugshots I see —-if it matters 🙂

  41. Descended says:

    Anne

    I start to wonder if your mind just won’t be changed if I showed you thousands. ..

    At any rate, like the Christian church in Nazi Germany, like moderate Muslims as opposed to Islamist jihadists, like a fair minded person in a family of racists – if you don’t speak up and change the narrative and the directing if your group, you have been effectively marginalised and stripped of your voice. If BLM or AntiFa is marching in the hundreds chanting for death to America or police officers, causing violence and burning down properties, you, the moderate, do not matter and should leave the movement.

  42. JoelG says:

    MLD it’s Portland so they might not be women FYI 😉

  43. Anne says:

    I have no doubt there may someday be thousands, perhaps believing they are supporting BLM or wearing a tshirt.

    I would still consign them to the same group of people who claim to follow Christ, go to church on Sunday, wear the shirt so to speak, but support the persecution of minorities,

    Sometimes no matter how much you speak up to change the narrative, those who have more power or other issues at stake to control it in the other direction will not listen. Surely you have seen this dynamic at work. It’s a given in most organizational systems whether old and entrenched or new and floundering to get their footing.

    Please understand that because a news network says a protest is BLM does not make it so. Lately just for these kind of reasons when marches or rallies are organized here in Portland, when the event is over, it is called done at the event, tweeted, all over social media etc. Yet hours later media will bill it as such if others with opposing points get in a scurrfluffle anywhere in town.

    It’s certainly a complex situation with a lot of competing narratives and many different factions desiring to control how those narratives are perceived. My rule of thumb is does the narrative seek to lift up or to destroy before I lend my heart and energies in any direction. Always subject to change if provided enough evidence from reliable sources ?

  44. Duane Arnold says:

    #41 Descended

    If I tried to follow that advice, I might have trouble finding a church, much less a movement, to be a part of for very long. In the 60s, all the protestors were not Weathermen, or Black Panthers… just saying because I was there. As I said above, I’ve attended and participated in several protests in the last several months and have not witnessed weapons or violence apart from militia counter-protests. Of course, this is simply my experience…

  45. Open24Hours says:

    The fabric of the union is unravelling because for at least three decades each *mainstream* side has become *militantly* opposed to the other. That merely creates new opportunities for the radicals on each side to further radicalize. Sadly, the chief power-players of the erupting militancy among the conservative half of the nation have been the type of dominionists who happily take selfies with their strongman emperor.

  46. alex says:

    the truth is you had a very small group of legit neo-nazis and a very large group of Antifa communist leftist domestic terrorists and Black Lives Matter domestic terrorists looking to cause trouble and a complicit and opportunistic Leftist Media and Democrat Party looking for a way to conflate all non-leftists and non-democrats as “nazis”

    It was a semi-successfuly psychological propaganda leftists operation. lots of lying and spin to twist the facts of the event.

    You leftists are in serious error and any support for the democrat party right now is very much not Christian and you’ll reap what you sow.

  47. Kevin H says:

    Alex,

    With that approach, there’s probably not much I or anyone else can say that will contribute to constructive conversation.

    I’ll point out at the very least, as I was the one who wrote this article, I am neither a leftist or a Democrat. I still identify as a political conservative because I agree more on the whole with conservative ideology and positions, although the identity is not nearly as important to me as many other identities that would come first. And I imagine you would view me as a sell-out.

    But let me theorize about one thing, however, and then follow it up with a question.

    When you were on your crusade for years to take down your stepfather and his church and pretty much all things Calvary Chapel, you were seemingly unable to see some of the good and positives in these things. You could only see, or at least focus on the bad. Anyone who came along and said bad about your stepfather or his church or Calvary Chapel you seemingly whole-heartedly believed. Now that you have had a transformation you see things very differently. Things that you were blinded to before in your zeal now appear quite differently.

    Now, I only know you from your online presence and interaction, but since your transformation with your family and church and Christianity, I have noticed your zeal is now pointed towards politics.

    Is it possible your zeal could be creating some similar blind spots when it comes to politics and your political interactions?

  48. Duane Arnold says:

    #47 Kevin

    When a person begins with “the truth is”… no conversation, constructive or otherwise, is possible.

  49. Michael says:

    I’ve been swamped all day…great job, Kevin!
    Hopefully I can chime in later tonight…

  50. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Open24Hours,
    We really must keep this in perspective when we say that the fabric of our society is being torn apart. Statistically, very few people care nor do they know the issues. They are just marching along to make it through the day.

    I went on a day trip this Saturday to Las Vegas to do some shopping. Too many people there for me, but I did not see a single person demonstrating for either side. I ended up in the casino sports book and behold, it was packed with blacks, whites, Asians, folks of Middle Eastern decent and I am sure Jews (although I did not have anyone drop them so I could do the empirical test). There were men, women, young folks, old folks like me – not a soul seemed to care about race relations of the day’s happenings in Boston.

    Now, when you are in the sports book, you are watching the games – and what do you see on the TV? All of these same diverse groups rooting in unison for their team, hugging each other at the appropriate time, slapping hi fives etc. We were doing the same.

    Last night in Phoenix there were a couple of thousand protestors at the Trump event – and probably 400,000 people out at major league ball parks – probably a similar amount at minor league games.

    We need to confess that we are allowing the loony fringe to control the narrative — when it is all a facade.

  51. John 20:29 says:

    not sure what event #46 is in reference to… but, to repeat myself, we need to focus on the result of hate… one might want to join a march such as Dr. Arnold and dear Anne participate in because the cause is just and their friends aren’t there to cause mayhem (that’s a funny word)…
    Anne observed, “Now I avoid completely mainly working through city council meetings, letter writing etc. I will attend memorial rallies for victims of police violence etc but once it switches over to March or hate I have to go.”
    bravo for leaving when you see an element joining your demonstration with actions that you can’t support… but crowd control can get dicey and the whole demonstration march as a present phenomena is taking a bad turn and we could well see another Kent State – a sorrowful outcome as the authorities charged with keeping the peace can make mistakes also – or so it seems to me.

    yes, we are to hate evil and line up with what is good… but marches may not achieve that goal and the innocents can be run over by the mindless haters…

    also the Democrats of today’s politics do scare me, too… we need a new party of people who hate hate … say what?

  52. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Michael.

  53. John 20:29 says:

    #49-Michael, get some rest! Friday is almost here…

    my mother used to tell me, “you need to save yourself” when she thot i was overdoing it and my response was, “save myself for what?” … she wasn’t talking about my virginity, i was a mother chasing four children, so the advice seemed a little hollow 🙂

    still…

  54. John 20:29 says:

    i can’t quite agree with MLD’s #50… yes, most of us are just minding our own business, coping with what life is throwing at us… but it doesn’t take the whole nation to steer the course of the ship of state… or is it Ship of State?

  55. Josh the Baptist says:

    “We need to confess that we are allowing the loony fringe to control the narrative — when it is all a facade.”

    That’s actually true.

  56. John 20:29 says:

    Josh and MLD… well, okay… how do we (the collective ‘we’) stop the fringe?

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    The ship is not turning so it does not need intervention. The loony fringe has jumped ship and is rowing with one oar in the lifeboat – in circles.

    A new news cycle will come along.
    Remember the good old days when the news people could talk only about Trump and Russia? I haven’t heard that one for a couple of weeks.

    Do like me, don’t have cable TV and live a happy life.

  58. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Last year the Reverend Franklin Graham traveled to all 50 States to urge all Christians to vote for the candidate that support our Godly Family Values (obviously it was Donald Trump). In each State stop, Franklin drew thousands of Christians and those that wanted a change in the White House.

    During the night of the Presidential election when both Donald and Hillary were neck in neck in electrol votes and that the remaining States were pro Hillary. So reports there was a celebration of a pending victory in the Clinton Camp. Than the State of Florida, Wisconsin, Michigan and Penn gave Donald Trump the required electro votes for the Presidency. The Bible says “The Battle Belongs to the Lord.” He answered our prayers and won the battle for Donald Trump. It wasn’t the Russians but God Almighty answering our prayers.
    Now if your going to focus on the HATE, FAKE NEWS and other negative news these days against President Trump, your going to have liberals have you think that Donald Trump will not fulfill his four year presidency and resign. Focus your attention on God Almighty. HE is on the throne, and knows very well whats coming up and going on in this world.
    The key to our thinking mine is GOD Almighty is still on the Throne. HE will not let anyone, including Satan reverse His victory for Donald Trump..period!. That does not mean we cease to pray for Donald Trump. The other side, that belongs to Satan will keep on attacking God’s anointed. So continue to pray for Donald Trump. Praise the LORD…

  59. Josh the Baptist says:

    Em – google “Sheetcaking”

  60. Anne says:

    Yes Em, it can get dicey at the most peaceful of marches. We’ve had rogue cops inflict violence on peaceful marchers here in Portland with serious injuries and costing the city millions. My youngest daughter finally asked me to not March at all. Marches, rally’s still effective for networking,raising community and political consciousness etc. I appreciate rallies as a way to connect and reconnect with folks I’ve met and worked with especially from my earlier days here. Many issues overlap, homelessness, poverty, police brutality etc and for me the only way to keep from being just an ole lady at a keyboard. Without transportation and since many events are downtown where I live, I keep in touch online but get to touch base f2f at rallies. Being an introvert, “allergic” to loud noise, claustrophobic etc it was always amazing I made it through as many as I did! I am addicted to hugs though so maybe that compensates for the other distress. It has been so many years since I too identified as either dem or Repub. Only registered as dem in last primary to vote for Sanders. None of us, I think, even those who claim to, fit neatly into the boxes provided in the current political climate.

  61. Kevin H says:

    “We need to confess that we are allowing the loony fringe to control the narrative — when it is all a facade.”

    The problem is the façade is becoming reality. More and more people who are not the loony fringe are taking on characteristics of the loony fringe. Everything involving the “other side” is a conspiracy theory. The “other side” is the enemy. Everybody on the “other side” is racist or fascist or communist. All focus and energy must be placed on showing how bad the “other side” is and taking them down.

    To varying degrees, these attitudes are infiltrating the common populace and it is not good.

    What do we do about it? I refer you to my article. 🙂

  62. Kevin H says:

    “The other side, that belongs to Satan will keep on attacking God’s anointed.”

    Melvin,

    I had a lot of very bad thoughts to say in reply but decided that I will not dignify your comment besides to say that it is attitudes like that that are causing a demise in this country and in the Faith.

  63. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Kevin, all that you say @61 is 100% true — but it is all taking place in the loony fringe.
    Think of it as a snow globe – there is a whole world outside the snow globe – but to those inside, it is everything. The only thing that changes is how hard the snow globe is shaken — and the resulting comment is “look how much worse this is now” or it may be “now people will notice”

    Yep, only in the snow globe.

  64. Anne says:

    Shock and awe tactics work way too well on folks on either side who either through apathy, lack of time, resources or whatever did not see or could not imagine where we find ourselves today. Someone said you may not care about politics but politics always affects you or something to that effect. I agree with Michael that locally a great place to start. Loving others as yourself, resisting the us v them dichotomy as much as lies within us not a bad place to start. People of faith and those without faith who fight for equal justice treat each other so mind bogglingly inhumanely all too often.

    I enjoyed this rebroadcast of On Being very much. It speaks well to Kevin’s topic I think. If you don’t have time to listen or read transcript, I offer at least this quote: “Ms. Sales: This whole business of demonization, I’ve been deeply concerned about it, because it does not locate the good in people. It gives up on people. And you see that most especially in the right and the left. I have been very concerned about the demonization that comes out of right-wing communities and also the demonization that I’ve heard on the left. And it comes from the same source of displaced whiteness. So I think that there is, at the heart of this business of finding something good in people and not giving up on anyone and not writing anyone’s obituary until they no longer have breath in their bodies, is very problematic today. And I have had deep problems with the anger, the vitriolic rage that has come out of the right and the left — and I never thought I would say this — and the only safe landing space seems to be in the middle. [laughs] And I think we should really think about that. I do believe that we’re witnessing something that we need to pay real attention to.”

    https://onbeing.org/programs/ruby-sales-where-does-it-hurt-aug2017/

  65. Duane Arnold says:

    #61 Kevin

    I only wish it was just the “loony fringe”. I have seen things happen (personally, not on a cable news show) in the last number of months that I have found hard to believe are taking place in America in 2017… I think the problem is more endemic than we might wish to allow.

  66. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Kevin we are all accountable to God Almighty. You and I are accountable to God Almighty.
    Let me quote what Jesus Christ said about accountability:
    Matthew 121:36-27 Jesus speaking “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.”
    What I posted I believe in my heart that Donald Trump is God’s anointed. No matter what you think of him (I know you wanted to open up and really give it to me about Donald Trump) God is using Donald Trump for His purpose in these end times.
    He has restored some “common sense” replacing political correctness in what he says and what executive order he has already signed. This Christmas, He is bringing back “Merry Christmas” and not the Devil’s Happy holidays.
    I also believe in my heart that those that opposed Donald Trump Presidency or more so as a person, is of the Devil…Satan and his dark forces. Donald is for Godly family values while the other side is for politicial correctnes or secularization of America. Meaning wiping out anything that is Godly family values.

  67. Michael says:

    Donald Trump is the king of Israel? Because that’s who Gods anointed was…

  68. Michael says:

    A great many of my readers and myself oppose Donald Trump based on Christian ethics.
    You need to take your accusations elsewhere.

  69. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Kevin,
    For my infomation, what Christian ethics do you opposed President Donald Trump? I only see he has been good to the Christians in his country….so what ethics are you talking about?

  70. Kevin H says:

    Duane,

    I would agree. I believe the actions and attitudes have spilled out of the snow globe that MLD proposes they are contained within. They are affecting more and more people.

  71. Michael says:

    That wasn’t Kevin, it was me. I’m in a waiting room at the moment, but suffice to say that we have godly convictions as well.
    I will not tolerate statements to the contrary.
    Period.

  72. Kevin H says:

    Melvin,

    I was not the one who bright up Christian ethics. But since you ask, if you cannot see Christian ethical problems with Donald Trump then you are one of the ones blinded by partisan politics (or some really bad theology) as I propose in my article.

    I believe this is the last I will engage in this conversation as I see no good in it.

  73. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well that would make campaign 2008 rhetoric a sham. All the talk of poor race relations back then and now we find out those were the good old days for blacks and other minorities?

  74. London says:

    ” also believe in my heart that those that opposed Donald Trump Presidency or more so as a person, is of the Devil”

    Damn good think you’re not the one who’s vote matters in these concerns.

  75. Dan from Georgia says:

    Donald Trump = family values. Restoring this nation back to God = being able to say Merry Christmas again and common sense talk. DT = Gods chosen one.

    Someone reads Charisma News too much.

    Someone grab me a barf bag, for there is a serious lack of wisdom here today.

  76. Dan from Georgia says:

    When you point fingers at others claiming they are doing the devils work..be careful…those fingers may be pointing back at you.

  77. Dan from Georgia says:

    Let’s see…Christian ethics:
    -filthy talk or coarse language
    -telling lies
    -not welcoming the stranger
    – not asking for forgiveness.

    Yep. Ethics to be held up in high esteem!

  78. Dan from Georgia says:

    Oh and Melvin, don’t bother engaging with me either. Everything you posted here is nonsensical blather! Step away from Fox News or Charisma and open your Bible.

  79. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ… the simplicity of the Holy Bible. The simplicity of God’s Word. God does not make it difficult to understand what He says in the Holy Bible. Yet your telling me that I don’t see the problem of Christian ethics with Donald Trump.
    I’m just saying God Almighty is using Donald Trump for these last days. What he has done so far, I see nothing wrong in his agenda to make America great again. You go by your Christian ethics, I go by God’s Holy Bible and His GRACE. God Almighty, is a simple person who does not make it difficult for us to follow – It’s His grace.

    Would someone list those Christian ethics that Donald is not following? Are these ethics found in the Holy Bible? Book, Chapter verses.

  80. Kevin H says:

    Hey MLD,

    You got that snow globe handy that you say contains all the loony fringe. I think someone got loose.

  81. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Dan I have a Christian shirt that I wear at the local fitness center. It reads “Genuine Bible Thumper.” I got my bible open. I’d love to engage with you on the level of love not a battle between Christian brothers. I presume you are a born again Christian saint. I don’t get my Christian upbringing by any magazine especially Charismia. I don’t watch television too much,
    My whole beliefs come from God’s Word, His Holy Bible. Now tell me what you dislike about Donald Trump according to the Holy Bible.

  82. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I just came back from the AZ DMV to start the process to get my license changed – need it to get my conceal and carry here.

    Many of you here have convinced me the problem is getting worse and spreading – the only responsible and immediate answer is to arm ourselves.

  83. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Your list of Christian ethics on Donald Trump really sound like it came from a the liberal media.
    Even if its all true, don’t you think Donald has ask God Almighty for His forgiveness. He does hold daily bible study in the White house. Again, even if those accusations of so called Christian ethics is true, nothing can compare to what the other side represents.
    The other side, the LEFT or liberals believe in murdering the unborn. God says to CHOOSE LIFE. The other side believes in perversion marriage. God says, marriage is my convenant of one man and one woman. The other side want to secularlize America and getting rid of all Christian values.
    Comparing what the other side represent and what you all are accusing Donald Trump of, is pure political correctness. Common sense tells you the true Christian ethics is following God’s Holy Word in the Bible,

  84. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Melvin,
    “Even if its all true, don’t you think Donald has ask God Almighty for His forgiveness.”

    The Trump claim to fame when he became a Christian was his comment that he had never asked for forgiveness and he did not need to. – how did you miss that one?

  85. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Dan not sure if I am repeating myself but I am just replying to what you just sent. I got my Holy Bible open, God is listening. In Malachi 3:16 God say He records our conversation. If we are talking about Him, its recorded in His remembrance book.

    So I got my bible open..

  86. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    I’ved watch President Donald Trump remarks on different issues . Some remarks I believe he just want to feed the FAKE News. But in the privacy of his home, of course Donald Trump believes in forgiveness. Don’t you think during his daily bible study, forgiveness came up?

  87. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    That source of that link came from CNN or FAKE News. I say it again. Donald and his staff with born again Christian Vice President Mike Pence have held daily bible studies in the White House. I am positively sure that if that CNN link is not a FAKE news, his bible study would have brought up forgiveness. I truly believe Donald have ask forgiveness for his sins.
    When Jesus Christ went to the cross, He took the world sins of the past, present and future and nailed it to the cross. So by the grace of God of what Jesus did for us, God sees us as “sinless” in a sinful world. Of course there are those that will not accept what Jesus did, so their sins are not forgiven. They reject Jesus Christ work on the cross.
    Again, Donald Trump has more likely ask for forgiveness for his sins.

  88. Jean says:

    Kevin,

    Many times, thread creep and/or trollers can take a perfectly good article way off track to where the conversation bears little resemblance to the original article.

    I applaud your good faith effort with a difficult topic. My favorite paragraph and take away is:

    “And above all, for those of us who are disciples of Christ, our first focus and filter should always be through how God would see these things and how we think He would have us to act on them. What is just and right? What will bring healing and reconciliation? How can we act to love our brother? To love our enemies? To point people toward Christ? These things should come through our thoughts and actions far before we concern ourselves with making or winning any political points.”

    Amen.

  89. Dan from Georgia says:

    Melvin, those ethics are in the Bible you know, not liberal media talking points. The Bible says to avoid foolish talk and coarse joking ( including talk of grabbing women in their privates), the Bible says to not bear false witness, and the Bible says to practice hospitality to the foreigner and alien. In fact I believe it’s in Ezekiel ( can’t look it up as I am in transit) that one reason Sodom and Gahmorrah was destroyed was their treatment of foreigners and aliens. Also I believe you are half right about Trump being Gods chosen man-the bible states that the Lord raises up leaders and deposes them- however it is highly presumptuous to say that God chose Trump to lead us back to God. If trump is Gods chosen, so was Obama, and you know that .

  90. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Jean.

  91. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Dan if you are a Christian and know your Holy Bible you would know that we live and not a part of this sinful world. God wants His children (born again Christian saints) to be perfect and holy. We will be. Not here but when we are home in heaven. In the meantime, in 1 John 1:8-9 when we sin, we confess our sins to continue our fellowship with our Father in Heaven. Although when we became born again Christians, our past, present and future sins were nailed to the cross. When God Almighty looks at us, HE sees us a “sinless.” Althougth we still live in as sinful world, when we sin, we immediately confess it and move on.
    With all that said, coarse joking, false witness, and other issues you mention is sins that you and I will commit in this world. You mention Donald Trump grapping women in their private parts happen a long time ago. Your just repeating what the liberal media has never forgotten. But God Almighty has, I was told Donald accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. That means all his sins of the past, present and future is forgiven. Now being a child of God, if Donald commit a sin, which he will, I am sure he will go directly to God for confession and forgiveness. That’s between God Almighty and Donald Trump.
    It seems that even those on this blog, Christian or not or Donald Supporter or not is not serious about the blasphemy sins of the Liberal Democratic party and those that support their beliefs. Murdering the unborn (abortion), God Almighty takes it very seriously of taking an unborn life. He also takes it very seriously of the sin of homosexuality and their attempt to wipe out traditonal marriage of one man and one woman. God made a covenant and to mess with this convenant will result in a great judgment on Judgment Day,
    Donald Trump is helping Christians. Yet, even Christians are against him because of the issues that you mention.
    Barack Hussein Obama is an evil person and sometimes think he is still a Christian. He has sign funds to Planned parenthood to continue the holocust of the unborn. When the U.S.Supreme court unfortunately approved perversion marriage, He had the White house light up in Rainbow colors. By the way, the Rainbow was originated by God as a sign that He will not destroy this earth by water again. It will be by fire.
    There was an botch abortion procedure done on this woman. She instead wanted the baby to be saved after that botch. Barack Hussien OBama did not allow it.
    Donald Trump is God’s anointed for this Presidency. The other side represent the dark side or Satan the Devil side which wants God’s anointed to be taken down.
    As I said in an earlier post, God answered the prayers of Christian in American and won the Battle for Donald Trump to be the 45th President of the U.S. Those that disagree with that is on the side of Satan the devil. i am not here to tickle your ears on what you want to hear but the truth….only the truth hurts.

  92. Kevin H says:

    I would suggest we don’t keep engaging Melvin as he seems set in his nonsense and it will only detract from what I think has been an otherwise overall decent discussion.

  93. John 20:29 says:

    weell, before i honor Kevin’s request…
    Melvin is new here is he not? Folks here know their Bible pretty well – some have Lutheran views, some (me) evangelical views, some Anglican, an Orthodox and an occasional R.C… many are teachers of the Faith…
    i don’t think we know the depth of Trump’s faith – only God knows the heart and i pray for Trump to come ’round, but to say that he’s anointed by God? hmmm… the only celebrity of the Faith is our Lord, Jesus Christ and we should be content with that as the believing generations wait for the Day
    might be better stated that all of the world’s leaders are there according to God’s design and pray for ours to bless and not curse us
    Melvin, one can truly enjoy Christ here and enjoy God’s children, too

    we have a wildfire starting up here… prayer appreciated

    God keep

  94. Dan from Georgia says:

    Kevin H, agreed. Some people’s hearts and minds are made up despite facts being and biblical truth presented to them. I’m done engaging him.

  95. Duane Arnold says:

    OK, my friends… I’m queuing up Patsy Cline singing “Crazy”… on repeat…

  96. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Thank you for that nice response:

    The Apostle Paul said in Acts 20:27 “I have not shunned the whole counsel of God.” What is the whole counsel of God? From cover to cover in the Holy Bible. What does Jesus Christ says about His Word? In Matthew 4:4 (NKJV) “It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the the mouth of God. That means from the book of Genesis through the book Revelation, book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. This is what you call “The whole counsel of God.” This is where I am coming from.
    In the book of Romans chapter 14, verse 4 reads “Who are you to judge another servant? To his own master he stand, for God is able to make him stand.” If Donald Trump is a born again Christian ( I believe he is), in this passage the Apostle Paul is saying why do you judge another servant. We both serve the same Master (God Almighty).
    It is encouraging to know that our success in the Christian life does not depend on the opinions or attitudes of other Christians. God is the judge and He is able to make us stand. The word “servant” here suggests that Christians ought to be busy working for the Lord, then they will not have the time or inclination to judge or condemn other Christians. People who are busy winning souls to Christ have more important things to do than to investigate the lives of the saints! Yes, Donald Trump is a born again Christian saint.

  97. JD says:

    I lay My life down, that I might take it up again
    I lay My life down, that I might take it up again
    These are not the words of an ordinary man
    Jesus, who died and rose again

    Reminds me of these lyrics from a song I wrote quite a few years ago based on John 10:18

  98. Descended says:

    Melvin

    While I tend to lean closer to your side of the aisle, and believe Trump has done pretty good in 8 months considering the odds – what alarms me about your posts is the unswerving loyalty to a politician who calls himself a Christian yet hasn’t apparently asked for forgiveness, surrounds himself with a Yes man faith council and a multitude of generals and assume his faith is solid even given all the facts, who says all the conservative things we like

    And for these reasons
    call him anointed by God to lead Christians specifically in putting their civil duties before their faith. This smells of civil religion. I would encourage you to check out Martin Erdmann on YouTube speaking about it. We got suckered into this with Bush, and he kissed a Qur’an and put in the white house after 9/11. He put through the NDAA (Patriot Act) which labels you, sir, and me, extremist and dangerous for our beliefs.

    You seem to assume a lot about folks here, who, while I can’t agree with their hermeneutic or even some of their theology, I believe love Christ with everything in their faith that have to v work with, as do I. I probably have the least to v work with.

  99. Xenia says:

    ” also believe in my heart that those that opposed Donald Trump Presidency or more so as a person, is of the Devil”<<<<

    In the spirit of "bless those who curse you,"

    Melvin, God bless you.

  100. brian says:

    I’m no expert but I have had experience in it if that makes sense, I did not vote for Donald trump but in California, it would not have mattered we have a one party state system at the federal level at least. I want President Trump to succeed, I want to see if some of his changes will help if they are vetted systematic changes that have been thought out. This may not be very Christian of me but I worry about his physical and emotional health. This is not an easy job and I still believe he did not expect to win. I think in some ways he went into all this because he got ticked off and wanted to show people he could do it.

  101. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    God Almighty answered over 12 million evangelical (including myself) prayer for the candidate that supports our Godly Family values compared to what we had this last eight years. The Battle Belong to the Lord and He won the battle for us by putting Donald Trump in the White House.

    To be honest with you, I have been frustrated at times when all these attacks against our President Trump. A lot of accusations whether true or not.
    In my morning devotion I addressed my frustration to God Almighty. By faith, and my daily bible study, God is saying I am still on the throne. You placed your focus on ME and not what’s going on with Donald Trump. I am in control of that.
    That’s what I will do. Knowing that God answered our prayer and placed Donald Trump in the White House by believing by faith that it wasn’t the Russians, but God Almighty answering our prayer for a victory.
    If I take my eyes of God, than I’ll sink into frustration like the Apostle Peter did when he took his eyes off Jesus and sank below the water.

  102. brian says:

    Melvin, I hope so, I really do but I still am concerned about his health. I really am very empathetic towards those that voted for President Trump. As stupid even pathetic as it sounds I am active in calling, writing emails, speaking up on legislative issues sometimes well into the night. I don’t agree with his view and I am a bit concerned about his rhetoric but all politicians use rhetoric some are a bit more skillful at it. I mean this from my heart I am concerned about his health. It is not an easy position to be in and any of us could break I know I most likely would.

  103. Melvin Partido Sr says:

    Brian I am not concerned about his health or even mental health. As a born again Christian we are told to look and focus on God Almighty where you will find that peace that surpasses all understanding. If God is still on the throne, than He is in control of all circumstances including President Donald Trump physical and mental health.

    i won’t let the enemy whisper into my ears about what’s going on with the the HATE Donald Trump FAKE News and take my focus off God Almighty. When that happens, sing praises to our Lord. Praise the Lord!!! and all glory to Him.

  104. brian says:

    Ok, Melvin, I will tell u one story it has been long enough, she has passed on and I will still be vague for privacy. Disclaimer I am remembering this through many years of emotional spiritual issues and my own stupid rhetoric.

    When I was working at the state facility I was assigned to a unit with about 42 adults who were profoundly developmentally disabled. The several issues with this group are that many of them were very violent and extremely dangerous, some were very self-injurious and most struggled with very maladaptive behaviors. I consider them to this day some of the finest human souls I have ever met, I still believe that. This lady about the same age as me was extremely self-injurious, she would dig(rip) down to her skull in one situation pulling her hair out. That did not include the foreign objects she would well never mind. I had this desire to see her get better I really did. I would pray, beg, even fast a few times to no avail at all, none, ever not one time ever. Not ever. I could go on but won’t. She was not a bad person, she was actually a very bright kind and very humorous person just trapped in a “reality” of psychosis and cognitive dysfunction but the behavioral intervention worked, the medication worked and I would like to think the few years I was there maybe I helped a bit.

    The basic response from my faith community is that she was in sin, controlled by Satan and other such utter nonsense. I never saw such humanity when given a chance I saw Jesus. I won’t go into what I was told. I said this when I first came here still say it today, I will never reject Jesus, I can’t see a reality in this world with out Him in it. But it is much more complicated than our, including me, especially my rhetoric. I just hate seeing people hurt.

  105. John 20:29 says:

    brian, i think God has given you a gift… since the cross, sin isn’t the issue anymore as we are all sinners at the mercy of our instincts without the Holy Spirit working in us… is there grace for the people you worked with? i think we will have an education on judgement day…
    God will not condemn SOLEY on the basis of our intelligence, NOR will He condemn for not accepting what we never were told or able to understand…

    now that’s not scripture and i could be mistaken…

    but our God is both perfect in His holiness AND in His grace… He alone knows our hearts and because of that, unless one hears the gospel and rejects it, we here in time have to be careful as to whose souls we assign to the lost category… sadly, there is, and must be, such a category

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