Kevin’s Conversations: Heroes and Heels
There were various festivities before and during the game and the weekend included the honoring of past teams and players along with a video tribute of Paterno during the game. It has now been almost five years since the child sex abuse scandal rocked the University, resulting in Paterno losing his job and quickly followed by his death only a couple months later.
As was expected, there was national debate as to whether or not such an event should take place. On campus and in the Penn State community and family where Joe Paterno is still very much revered, the event was largely enthusiastically welcomed, although there were sure to be some who felt differently. The video tribute to Paterno drew much cheering and applause, while some of those in attendance from the opposing Temple University Owls turned their backs in protest.
I have written here before about this horrifying scandal and its relation to Joe Paterno. We may never know the whole truth of exactly when and how much Paterno knew and what he did or didn’t do about it, or even tried to cover up. At the very least, it would seem that if one is able to lay aside all biases they would surmise that Paterno should have done more. The Coach admitted as much himself. He was the most powerful man on campus and he knew to at least some degree that there were some potentially very inappropriate things taking place under his watch and he chose to do very little about them.
Now, as I also have written before, Paterno did much good for the university and the football team and in the lives of many players and others associated with the team. More so than most other coaches and big-time college football programs, he stressed academics, staying out of trouble, and doing things right. Although he still made out well, he long collected salaries significantly less than what he could have demanded, he donated much money back to the University, and he lived a modest life. And of course there was his success on the field where he won two national championships and more games than any other college football coach ever.
So how do you honor a man who did much good but ended his career with a very significant black mark? A black mark that potentially stretched back as far as 35 years before he lost his job. Do you honor at all? Ever?
He’s already had his statue taken down at the football stadium and his legacy will forever be tarnished.
For some the answers are easy and obvious. You don’t ever honor a man such as this who played a significant role in allowing such horrendous crimes to occur. For others it’s a no-brainer that you honor such a man. A man who has done so many great things and has never been proven to be definitively guilty of the many things of which he is accused. And then for others there is a jumble of conflicted feelings as to what should and could be done about Joe Paterno. For them, there are few easy answers.
George Whitefield, the great evangelist of the 1700’s, was and is widely admired in many Christian circles. He is credited for playing a major role, if not the most critical human role, in The Great Awakening and other revival activity in Great Britain and America. He is viewed by many as a great hero of the faith.
But George Whitefield was pro-slavery and he owned slaves. Not only this, but he was actually a major advocate for legalizing slavery in Colonial America. Whitfield used his power and influence to help bring about the abhorrent institution of slavery in America.
Martin Luther, the great Reformer, did many great things in standing up to the wrongs in the Church and bringing about much needed change. Later in life, Luther said some pretty nasty things about the Jews, influencing others to think the same. John Calvin, another great Reformer, no matter how one views it, had his Servetus issue. Moses disobeyed God in front of all the Israelites and struck the rock and took credit for the miracle. David had Bathsheba.
So what do we do with all of this? Do we steadfastly shun the recognition of any person who has ever done unrighteous things? I don’t think so, lest we will never recognize anybody. Yet at the same time, nobody in a right mind should ever want to honor an Adolf Hitler or Charles Manson or Jerry Sandusky….. no matter how many good achievements some of them may have had.
Discerning how to best handle each and every one of these situations is not always easy. The truth is that we are all a mixed bag. We cannot be honest by denying the good or the bad that each individual person has done.
Thus, how do we decide when it is appropriate to honor someone or speak reverently of them and when it is not? Do we ever honor a Joe Paterno for the good things he accomplished or do we keep his legacy stuffed in a closet along with his statue, never to be spoken about again? Do we never speak of Luther or Calvin or Whitfield as being greats in the faith because of their varied failings?
Moses and David have their indiscretions documented in Scripture and yet they are later honored in the “Hall of Faith” in the book of Hebrews. Same goes for Noah and Rahab and others.
In some cases, we may decide that the bad is just too bad, or too hurtful to others, that we choose not to honor. In other cases, we decide that everyone has their faults, but the good carried out by this person is just too important to ignore. Through it all, it’s probably best if we can honestly admit and recognize that even our heroes have their failings and those we find to be reprehensible may very well have done some good. If we can do this, it may go a long way in our decision making and in how we relate to others when making such decisions.
Good word! Thank you.
More balance in the “World” and more scrutiny in a Secular Institution than in “Church”. Very telling.
Chuck Smith, for example, is overly-praised and worshipped by his faithful followers and sycophant “Affiliated” CC pastors….and no healthy criticism is allowed.
The “Church” disgusts me. I have more hope for Secular Institutions to do the right thing.
just came off a morning reading in the proverbs regarding wisdom and understanding… this post here this a.m. is full of wisdom and understanding…
“We may never know the whole truth of exactly when and how much Paterno knew and what he did or didn’t do about it, or even tried to cover up.” remember his counsel probably came from a priest who, himself, may have been taking counsel on how to handle this rot within his own order…
as i read here, it crossed my mind that this is the problem that permeates the churches – looking for heroes in the flesh… we never really know any man; not the way God does by a long shot… we should celebrate the good we see and condemn evil and that, for certain, includes our clergy… but only God can celebrate a man or condemn him accurately – those infamous and permeated evil men down thru history excepted… pray for every living man, terrorists included, their day of reckoning has not come and where there’s life, there is hope to borrow a phrase
Kevin,
Wow. Excellent words. And tough words…..
This applies to our personal lives as well – we have a family member that we no longer have contact with due to recurring behaviour. I am trying to remember that grace applies to everyone.
Em,
Amen . Well said.
Thanks for the kind words, all.
I think there’s a difference between God’s grace and the grace we humans can show. Real justice is God’s alone, for He is the only one who can judge rightly and fairly. Because the truth is, all our lives are like this. Light and darkness, good and bad, we are all in that same category. As you pointed out, Kevin, the Lord called David a man after his own heart even though he was a murderer and an adulterer. This was a very balanced piece. Good job, Kevin.
***He was the most powerful man on campus and he knew to at least some degree that there were some potentially very inappropriate things taking place under his watch and he chose to do very little about them.***
Even if the sex abuse scandal never happened, the fact that Joe Paterno was the most powerful man on campus speaks of the utterly wrong-headed values at Penn State. An institute of higher learning should be about education first and foremost. The coach of the football team should have very little standing, much less be the most powerful man on campus.
I think that part of deciding whether to honor the good things a bad person did is first deciding how valuable or relevant the good things they did are. I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that, in some respect, this article is comparing Joe Paterno, an American football coach, with Martin Luther, John Calvin, George Whitefield, David, and Moses. He’s not even remotely in the same league as them, and whatever value a college football coach contributes is ultimately of no consequence to the world or society at large. When someone being a good football coach results in profound changes to society and positively reverberates down through centuries then maybe we can talk about whether we should overlook him not doing crap about boys being raped by one of his coaches under his watch.
j2,
You are right that Paterno, or any college football coach, shouldn’t have that level of power at a university. The reality of our society is, however, that Paterno did and many other college football coaches (and sometimes even basketball coaches) also have more power than they probably should.
I wasn’t trying to place Paterno in the same “league” as Luther, et al. I was trying to draw a parallel between issues that are faced in the world and how we face similar issues in the church.
I don’t agree that coaches’ contributions are of no consequence to the world or society at large. These men have a huge influence in their young players’ lives, and many of them take that responsibility very seriously. Many good men and women can attest to the difference a coach or a teacher has made on them. I think it’s important to see these coaches as educators, because that is truly what they are and that makes a huge difference in society. However, as far as the difference Paterno made, I have to say to me personally, the crime outweighs the good.
Kevin,
This one has me thinking…you’re very gifted at how you address these issues.
We all thank you…
Cash,
I agree with your thoughts about coaches having an impact on society at large. Paterno most certainly had positive influences on many players and other people which would have been a benefit to society. By virtue of his position and length of time in it, he had greater opportunity to impact more numerous people than most.
Thanks, Michael.
Glad you think it’s a gifting. Others sometimes have other words for it. 🙂
Kevin,
I hear you… 🙂
For me it’s a gift because you have a way of taking stuff I’ve been thinking about and putting some order to them…you don’t come to hard conclusions but provide a framework to make a good application.
Maybe I should ordain you… 🙂
***I don’t agree that coaches’ contributions are of no consequence to the world or society at large.***
I reject the idea that they affect society in a substantive way at all approaching the way Luther, Calvin, David, and Moses affected their societies. They may affect individuals profoundly (either negatively or positively), but that’s not the same as affecting society as a whole. The USA for all practical purposes would be exactly the same now if Paterno had never been born as it is with him having lived, coached, and died. The biggest way he affected society was by causing us to glimpse the profoundly evil action/inaction a supposedly upright and well-respected person is capable of. Our societal conversation around this issue has been at least mildly influenced by him, but that’s it.
You would ordain a memorialist? Oh, wrong conversation. 🙂
***I wasn’t trying to place Paterno in the same “league” as Luther, et al. I was trying to draw a parallel between issues that are faced in the world and how we face similar issues in the church.***
I guess to some degree because the disparity between their respective contributions to society and their affect on the world at large is so incredibly wide (it really could hardly be wider), I am finding it difficult to enter in to your greater argument.
j2,
Maybe as a football fan, and specifically a Penn State football fan, I overestimate the impact that Joe Paterno, or any big time football coach for that matter, can or has had on society. Again, I don’t see it nearly as great or as the same type of impact as men like Luther and the others. But I do think it can be significant.
Likewise, it’s possible if you’re not much of a football fan, that you might underestimate the impact a coach can have, especially one who had as big of a profile as Paterno.
” The USA for all practical purposes would be exactly the same now if Paterno had never been born as it is with him having lived, coached, and died. ”
You have absolutely no way of knowing this.
No one knows the level of impact one person makes on society.
#georgebailey
“Likewise, it’s possible if you’re not much of a football fan, that you might underestimate the impact …”
I don’t know how you can underestimate the impact a coach has. Name another instructor at ally university / college/ community college who can get 100,000 people to come out on a Saturday to see his students perform what they learned during the previous week.
and not only come out to see but pay enormous amounts of money to do so. And if you are a really good university instructor, you will have all of the TV networks coming to you to drop large sums of money at your feet for your university.
Google up what a university gets just for winning a bowl game – one game. That is impact.
An institute of higher learning should be about education first and foremost.
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Agreed, but a University degree has always been about more than academics. Universities have drama, arts, multiple clubs and organizations, fraternities and sororities, and yes athletics (not just teams but a campus wide encouragement and availability for athletic facilities for all students so they can stay strong in body, not just mind).
My alma mater has truly excelled academically in recent years under the current President of the university and his staff. It is a public university, and while academic comparison to private schools like Stanford or Yale is rather difficult, they are dominating among public universities (read – affordable tuition) and holding their own even in the private world too. For example, they were the first public school in US history to lead the nation among ALL colleges for National Merit scholars in a freshman class.
This rise in excellence has largely been possible because of sports. The athletic department sends about 5 million dollars a year to the academic side to recruit and pay the best professors, expand and modernize the library, the science labs, improve the theater and dance/music studios. I don’t even recognize the place anymore.
This does not include the countless millions of dollars raised in alumni donations to the University general fund among past graduates who are able to keep their connection to their old school in large part through the athletic department and success of its teams (and bragging rights whether around the corporate board room or on the assembly line)
Of course, as a state school you can find the salaries of every worker there. And the media fires people up to read about the football coach who makes the most, about 6 million. The basketball coach about half that. Even the women’s basketball coach makes 1.25 million and the women’s softball coach about 500,000. All the top names on the list are associated in some way with the athletic department. And yeah, you hear about the multi-million dollar stadium expansions or scoreboards.
But not a dime of those expenses comes from the university tuition or fees. It is self generated by the athletic department with that 5 million or so profit going to the school itself to make it better academically. That’s what does not make the reports. For example, 5 dollars of EVERY ticket sold for the football games goes straight into an academic fund for the school. (And they sellout every game every year)
That is not the world of every university, but it is for most of the big ones (especially public schools (like Penn St), and the smaller ones are striving to join that world.
As far as the role of a coach in the years of a young man from 18-22, and in football we are talking about men who often are from broken homes, don’t even know their father, or maybe he is in jail or strung out on drugs. Young men often from dangerous neighborhoods who have watched some of their own friends die on the streets from gangs or drugs. The impact of a coach in such men, when that coach is a good man who cares about them and not just his own rise up the ladder, can be massive.
Make a difference in the world? Thousands of such men over multiple decades have opportunity to earn a degree and all that comes with it, have a brotherhood that will last a lifetime that is not connected to a gang for identification, and go work a job, contribute to society, raise a family. Talk to a kid from those neighborhoods about college scholarships being their ticket out. (And not just broken homes, but poor homes in dying small town America)
I know someone who played for Paterno years ago. There is a reason why his fall was so hard to fathom. The same reason that the guy was beloved, and remained beloved, by his players 30 years after they last played a down on the field. I’ve had lots of coaches and the couple of stellar ones still are beloved by me, and I assure you I could care less about the rest of them. (And I did not need a coach for a father figure either, nor come from a broken or underprivileged home)
If I was not a pastor, I can think of no better way to serve Jesus Christ than to be a coach at the college level. I would have loved that calling.
Sorry for the length. Thought it worth saying.
#22-’twas worth saying – good food for thought … although it would be nice to see the head coach’s salary and the contribution to the academic side reversed
Em – Maybe…except given his success he is underpaid according to what the market would bear. Which is why I made the point about a coach who cares more about the players and school than climbing the ladder and getting every last possible dime. He has turned down far more lucrative financial opportunities in the past to now be the longest tenured football coach at the same school in the country.
I trust you don’t think that any coach out there could be slotted into the position and still generate that 5 million plus to the university.
In fact, a whole lot of the universities out there are still supplementing their athletic departments, taking tuition money (and in public school situations, the taxpayers money) to pay the coach. No 5 million to those schools from the program. In fact, the program is a financial red ink.
(They do this in hopes of getting to the success where no longer is it necessary to subsidize sports and rather the athletic department can start giving back to the academic departments)
As an aside, every University has a President. One would assume this person to be the most powerful person on campus.
Ever look at the careers of these guys?
They are often worse than coaches jumping from school to school, 5 years here, 6 years there etc. Hard to say you have a heart committed to that school and its longterm goals of academic excellence….
And that’s the ones who at least have bothered to make a career in academics.
A lot of Universities have their new President come straight from Washington D.C where they have served in politics almost their whole lives but NOW all of a sudden are heads of universities – supposedly putting “education first”
Bull. They want the biggest name they can land when there is an opening and they will spend a lot of money to get him or her. I saw one stat that said 20% of all the University Presidents in the country (in 2011) were not working in the academic world when they became President of that school.
(And yeah, my alma mater was no different but that guy redeemed himself by sticking around for over 20 years and at least it is the school he himself graduated from, in the state where his political career also took place)
***“Likewise, it’s possible if you’re not much of a football fan, that you might underestimate the impact …”
I don’t know how you can underestimate the impact a coach has. Name another instructor at ally university / college/ community college who can get 100,000 people to come out on a Saturday to see his students perform what they learned during the previous week.***
I understand it’s popular. It’s a type of entertainment that many people gravitate to. However, if it didn’t exist our society would come up with other forms of entertainment, while, structurally, our society would remain the same. The USA has not been changed by college football coaches the way Europe was changed by Martin Luther.
How many sports coaches make it into history books? How many sports coaches are remembered 500 years after they have died?
***Make a difference in the world? Thousands of such men over multiple decades have opportunity to earn a degree and all that comes with it, have a brotherhood that will last a lifetime that is not connected to a gang for identification, and go work a job, contribute to society, raise a family. Talk to a kid from those neighborhoods about college scholarships being their ticket out. (And not just broken homes, but poor homes in dying small town America)***
At what cost, though? I’ve seen up close how a former football player functioned in the workforce. Either he was given his degree without actually earning it, or the brain damage from playing football screwed him up–because he was basically unable to perform any task that required thought and reasoning skills. How many men are suffering from debilitating health/brain problems due to their time playing football? How many wives and children are living the trauma of their husband/father not able to function properly or provide for them well because his brain was turned to jelly by too many concussions?
A lot of good comments. However, the Paterno saga reminds of four things. We all sin. We all need Jesus and forgiveness. Third, we need to remember those things. Fourth, don’t honor or idolize, if I can say that in this situation, people because we all let each other down, some in minor ways, others in very large and sometimes criminal or negligent ways.
Better to just keep our eyes on Jesus.
MLD, just because I have to say it and this coming from a USC alum and lover of college football. Just because a coach and his team can put 100,000 fannies in a stadium doesn’t mean our society or that fan base and university doesn’t have its priorities all messed up. Look at our pay scale in this country. If Nick Saban is not the highest paid public employee in the country, let alone Alabama, he has to be close. Meanwhile, the Alabama athletic dept. has more than $200 million in debt/bonds on buildings, etc. Go figure. Lunacy, I tell you.
I want to start by saying that Michael, Kevin, Jean, and Eric have encouraged my faith on many levels. Not the least of which is making me think. Praise the Lord and Amen to your work!
As to Joe Pa. I grew up in his shadow. Of the 20 odd students from my graduating class that went to college, most of them went to Penn State. One other young man and myself went to the “other” Penn college, Upenn.
Should Joe Paterno be punished for what happened under his watch. I can’t ansewer that. What I do know from scripture and history (and the names brought up here) is that all of the mentioned men had faults at least as bad as Joe Paterno’s. My concern is that we miss the point of Grace. All of us, not the least me, are condemned by our own behavior. I am guilty of what has been called the root of all sin, pride. If there is no hope of salvation for David, Luther, Calvin, or even Joe Paterno, I am of all men most screwed, because I have committed the greatest sin, pride.
Yet, I believe that God’s Grace covers even my most evil sin. If it does, it covers any man’s sin that truly believes. The discussion of Joe Paterno’s sin masks, in my opinion, God’s Grace. I don’t know the condition of Joe Paterno’s heart. But, if we, as believers, make no allowance for Grace, we have failed the Gospel we claim to believe.
Do I believe that this Grace gives us license? Absolutely not!! Yet, God gave Grace to those who believed, even David, Luther, and Calvin. By proclaiming that Joe Paterno is beyond redemption, because he didn’t act sooner, in my opinion, implies that our good works must out weigh our evil to be saved. And that, I just can not believe.
I may be totally confused, and if so, please educate me.
OCDan – Nick Saban brings joy to millions in Alabama. Name me one other public official who does the same.
If put to a vote, I am sure that the good people of Alabama would vote to raise the salaries of the head coaches at both Auburn and Alabama and cut the salaries of the Gov. and the Legislators.
I would here in California.
j2 – those are legit safety questions. I would add that the numbers of such people are a distinct minority compared to those who play the game in college only. Yeah, they exist. Everything in life has its bad examples we could point to.
It is professional football where most of the longterm health issues are being seen, and few college players are strong, fast, and good enough to play professionally. I could care less about the NFL and if they ceased to exist tomorrow I would not be concerned in the least.
We could outlaw college football tomorrow, and there would be a professional minor league system arise that would draft those hundreds of young players in hopes of finding the few who can play in the NFL. They’d start taking the steroids, getting shot up and pushed back onto the field…all the sorts of stuff that happens professionally that colleges work really hard to avoid ever happening (bringing some serious punishment when they do happen to the whole school – not just the player)
Except THEN, not one of those minor league pro coaches will give a fig about one of those players. It would be all business. And after all those players give their four years in the minor leagues and never make it to the NFL, they will be released…except without the opportunity to have earned a college degree and with none of the lasting bonds I described above between coach, fellow classmates and teammates, and alumni. I contend the benefit to so many far outweighs the occasional guy who has permanent injury or a degree he can’t read.
And as an aside, my post was not simply about football – though obviously that is usually the major revenue generator. What about all the boys AND GIRLS who have a chance to earn a college degree that they otherwise could not because they earn a scholarship to play softball or tennis?
Those sports exist because football makes millions. Or they are paid for by the school’s tuition budget and the regular students when football revenue is not there.
Meanwhile, the Alabama athletic dept. has more than $200 million in debt/bonds on buildings, etc. Go figure. Lunacy, I tell you.
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I don’t know the details of the Alabama athletic department, but who cares if they have 200 million in debt if they are the ones responsible for servicing the debt (and not the general fund of the University). Is that not the case?
Sometimes people who make a million dollars a year still live in a home with a mortgage on it. They know the revenue is coming in to service the debt, so who cares.
Alabama has plenty of money coming in this year, and next year and so forth. But you can’t take multiple years to build your new project in order to pay as you go. So you fund it and pay it off with the future revenue generated in years to come
Revenue likely greater than the revenue would be if the project was not built.
My school just did a 370 million project and used debt and specifically (as a state school) did not use tuition money or tax money to fund it. All athletic department money – but they had to finance a project that large
Nick Saban brings joy to millions in Alabama
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And great sorrow to the rest of the country, MLD 🙂
***And as an aside, my post was not simply about football – though obviously that is usually the major revenue generator. What about all the boys AND GIRLS who have a chance to earn a college degree that they otherwise could not because they earn a scholarship to play softball or tennis?***
My original post was not about football per se either. Rather, it was about how incredibly flawed I find the analogy in Kevin’s original article. We talk about and “praise” Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al in spite of their numerous well known flaws because they are people who need to be talked about because of the huge impact they have had on the world. It’s not even a matter of showing them “grace” or recognizing that all people are flawed; it’s a matter of recognizing the basic fact that they are amongst the very elite of history in the way they have influenced the world for multiple generations.
A somewhat insular community’s celebration of someone who impacted them but has not played a particularly large role in the world at large in no way compares to the recognition that people give to Martin Luther, et al. Also, there’s plenty of discussion and recognition even amongst their biggest “fans” of Martin Luther’s and John Calvin’s failings–which again is way different then a celebration that ignores the reality that Joe Paterno basically did nothing about boys getting raped by one of his coaches.
Use MLK or Mahatma Ghandi or someone of their influence to make your point; at least we’d then be talking about people who are on the same plain of relevancy. But using Joe Paterno is like using Stephanie Meyer (a celebrity from a non-sports-related entertainment field)–someone who is famous and who many people view positively and love, but who is not talked about or praised because she has influenced the last 500 years of western history.
Well it looks like we have ventured from what I was hoping to convey. So if we can look past what may be a poor analogy (or the need to defend it), I was hoping to get us to think about how we recognize or honor (or shouldn’t honor) flawed individuals, both in the secular and Christian worlds. And how it’s not always the easiest thing to figure out what is right or appropriate or considerate. And I was hoping to get us to think through these things to help us make good and God-honoring decisions.
I’m not sure it’s particularly important to recognize or honor people publicly. It’s nice for the person being honored when it happens but it’s not necessary. Maybe it’s more important to just try to be nice to the people in your life and treat them decently in spite of their flaws. One-on-one is where real, substantial grace occurs anyways.
“Even if the sex abuse scandal never happened, the fact that Joe Paterno was the most powerful man on campus speaks of the utterly wrong-headed values at Penn State. An institute of higher learning should be about education first and foremost. The coach of the football team should have very little standing, much less be the most powerful man on campus.”
Agreed, but the Football god is big juju, big magic. Make-em lots of money at Penn State.
Money is Power.
Not “should be” but what “is”.
The egg-head Academic folks at Universities often make a deal with the Football Devil b/c the Football Devil pays their bills.
Money is the reason, on all sides of the Equation.
The Liberals in Academia are willing to tolerate the Football Cretins b/c the Football Cretins pay their salaries to some degree, and fund their not-so-popular Programs to some degree.
That is the troof.
And if you doubt me, which by now you should not b/c I am a FACT MACHINE baby!
Here ya go: “According to this report, the Penn State football program brings in $50 million dollars a year. In the 2009-10 academic year, the football team generated $70.2 million dollars in revenue and $50.4 million of that was profit.Nov 10, 2011”
None of that was directed at any singular person, just stylistic and to the general “you” out there in cyberland!
Why did Chuck Smith lie so much? Money.
Why did Chuck Smith not hold his Pastors accountable? Money.
Money money money. Same at Penn State, same reason for looking the other way at Abuse in the Church.
No different.
There’s probably an analogy between the Paterno case and mega church pastors (and Catholic priests in prior years). When one falls, there will be an inclination among some to cover it up “for the sake of the [fill in the blank].”
It’s a form of “too big to fail.” It’s very wrong headed.
Greater tolerance for wrong doers when they account for the bigger equation fueling the Universities.
Greater obfuscation of any facts that might jeopardize the status quo of the funds magnets.
But when all fails, out with the statue!
Ya Al you endangered the Smith system of things as it were and your truths messed with the money machine.
Now look what you did!
The head office called Chuck home and split the playing field in half.
Your a real thorn in the side dude 🙂
Kelly Clark, the famous Child Abuse attorney and Advocate for victims, told me before he died that the only Language the Church and Institutions understand is “Money”
The reason for the big lawsuits? The big verdicts? B/c the fear of losing Money was only way the Church and Institutions would do something about the Child Abuse in their ranks.
Now this threat is what a Chuck Smith used to dodge accountability….he lied to protect the church’s Money and tried to have it both ways….a Denomination when it benefitted his pocket book and the pocket books of his friends….and “Not a Denomination! We’re all INDEPENDENT!” when it came to paying the poor kids and their families who were molested at Calvary Chapels by a sexual predator that other Calvary Chapels knew about.
Very disgusting. Chuck Smith was an evil man in some regards….and because of Money.
Medal of Honor, Honorary Doctorates, High School Valedictorian (and Honor Roll), Kennedy Center Honors..even the Nobel Prize is more honor than “award”
I liked the end of Mr. Holland’s Opus…and Beautiful Mind for that matter. Did anyone think those movies ended in a sinful fashion?
I may not be in the same zip code as anyone here who thinks any sort of earthly “honors” are unChristian or are the equivalent of “idolizing”, or somehow are an implied exception to the “all have sinned” truth of humanity.
Nor do I think God believes we only honor people when they die. And certainly nobody here is saying a Memorial Service is sinful.
So….to the issue of Paterno from over the weekend…Kevin, that frankly makes zero sense to me. To honor a guy you fired, who is now dead, who has not coached in five years, with an anniversary he never actually achieved is very strange as is. Given the scandal, it is inexcusable.
Now, some day if there is a school celebration to 150 years of Penn St. football or whatever, then obviously Paterno would be included. But this was a specific salute to Paterno apparently (I had not heard about it until your article, Kevin).
(My earlier comments pointed out that often it is a coach, football or otherwise, who has a greater commitment to a university than any President or administrator. And to point out the great value the right person can have as a coach in the lives of countless people.)
I was reflecting on this a little bit and was thinking about how the language of cults and idolatry are attached to Joe Paterno well before any of this came out. The funny thing is partially how the fairly normal American worship of football turned into JoePa idolatry at some point. Even before all of the Sandusky business came out, Paterno was allowed to slowly do damage to the thing that had brought him to prominence in the first place. The Penn State football program was already a shell of its former self by the time that all of that came out because by that time the man had become way more important than what it was that he did.
All that to say that the honoring of Joe Paterno recently is just an extension of the long time idol worship of the man, and the zealots of the three cult of JoePa have never and will never be able to overcome their blindness towards the negative aspects of the man.
It’s not a matter of whether these men who have significant flaws should be honored fit their achievements as much as whether we should ever let a man reach the level of worship that some who have made their way through Happy Valley have for Joe Paterno.
I think we really do a disservice to the actual sin of idol worshiping by these comparisons. Hey people being honored for the work they have done in their jobs is worthy.
Go back and look at some of the victory parades thrown across the nation after WWII for Eisenhower – were those folks idol worshippers? Both political parties wanted him to be their candidate for president in 1952 – Idol worship?
Here in SoCal we are down to our last 10 games of Vin Scully baseball – the end of 67 yrs. He deserves all the good honors and celebrations he has been given this year – however there is not ascent of idol worship — even from those of us with a Scully bobblehead on the mantle.
Cut it out – we celebrate people and events.
In general I would agree with you. The Joe Paterno people are crazy.
They’re like the real life version of the Mike Ditka guys from SNL but with absolutely no irony.
The Joe Paterno people are crazy.
They are just crazy in a different way from yu – they would look at your interests or what you hold in high regard and honor and scoff the same way about your sanity.
The Penn State event came and went – no harm no foul – let the games continue. 😉
MLD makes a valid point, IMO.
Real Idol Worship I’ve seen is in the Religion space, like the Chuck Smith worship as well as other Sects worshipping their Gurus and Pastors and Leaders.
Jo Pa is more akin to a Vin Scully, only with a bad side (as MLD suggests that comparison).
Jo Pa and Football are Idols, maybe, in the sense of Entertainment Worship…but not Religious Worship like the Chuck Smith comparison.
When people equate their “Salvation” with a particular Guru like a Chuck Smith….and fawn over him like I witnessed to a sickening degree…that is true Idol worship. You’ve made a man way too important in a spiritual context. It’s unhealthy. It’s cult-like.
Al, not even close to the idol worship I spoke of.
Idol worship is a replacement of the real God with an idol. No one, not even you when you were a CC toddie replaced God with Chuck Smith.
My step-dad Calvary Chapel pastor would tell me growing up that my Lutheran best-friend and his family were not saved.
He said they were a “dead” church and that they didn’t have the Holy Spirit like Chuck Smith did. Then he’d listen to his Chuck Smith tapes and essentially plagiarize every sermon and speak in Chuck-ease and sell Chuck Smith as a prophet/guru etc etc.
And he’d beat us like Michael Vick’s dog etc. Such a wonderful pastor and Church Sect and such “good fruit”
It might be a matter of perspective (KevinH could confirm or deny that) or I might be wrong, not exactly something I feel the need to spill many more words on.
One key to understanding idol worship is this Jesus aphorism:
“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Perhaps we are fans (in the sense of fanatics) towards these people – even a Chuck Smith – but we are not idol worshipers.
Al, sounds like bob is the issue – not Chuck Smith.
“Al, sounds like bob is the issue – not Chuck Smith.”
No, that’s like saying Sammy “The Bull” Gravano was the issue and not the Dapper Don.
Fruit of a bad ministry and bad ministry example and bad Doctrine that promotes the type of abuses we see in a Bob Grenier and others.
BUT, Chuck Smith said he was “not Bob Grenier’s pastor!” even though Chuck Smith was introduced at Bob Grenier’s pulpit as “My pastor, Chuck Smith!” to a round of applause.
Liars. So easily the lies slip off their snake tongues.
Dallas is pretty accurate when he’s saying the Joe Paterno people are crazy. They are almost cult-like. Maybe not to the degree that religious figures get followed and worshipped, but more so than any other sports figure that I have encountered.
Now the bandwagon lost some fervor and followers after all the fall out from the scandal. But it still exists.
And I had previously highly admired Joe Pa, before the scandal anyway. But even when I thought very highly with him, I was still uncomfortable with the way some spoke of him and treated him.
I followed the entire saga at Penn State and it sickened me. I often read or hear Christian men say what they would do if someone molested their child. Beat downs and even killing the perp were never really met with any push back at all. People hope they got the same and worse while in prison as someone made the perp their bi***.
I don’t know the extent of Paternos’s knowledge of Sandusky’s crimes but it was enough for the university to remove his statue.
Bobby Petrino is held up as a great coach this year with the job he is doing as people tiptoe around his past.
I’m not interested in how much money they generate for a university. I applaud the work they can do to influence their players in a positive way. But that’s their job.
So yes, I have issues with honoring Joe. He was treated like a king during his tenure. I’m in late as usual but figured why not add my 2 cents.
E,
There’s a fee for coming in late. So you’ll have to give us three cents instead of two. 🙂
🙂
Jean,
IMO, you just (hopefully) brought the debate to a close with your #54.
but more so than any other sports figure that I have encountered.
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Kevin, you need to get out more. 🙂
We have lost a lot of this in the professional game(s) because free agency tends to result in players moving around from team to team…but back in the day…
And in the college game of course the players are only around a few years before they move on….but the coaches are where fans will still gravitate, especially coaches with a longterm commitment to the school.
Imagine if Saban had stayed at Michigan St. instead of jumping to LSU, or at least had stayed at LSU after winning the title there instead of jumping to the NFL, only to jump back to Alabama, only to be rumored to leave again when a big opening arises (like the Texas job).
It’s sports. Some people are WAY too invested …but it’s always been that way.