Kevin’s Conversations: Rise Above the Muck

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133 Responses

  1. London says:

    I absolutely will throw a party the day Trump/Bannon are gone.

  2. Jean says:

    Thanks for your thoughts Kevin. You’ve given us some good advice.

  3. Duane Arnold says:

    When I first met (then) Sen. Obama over nine years ago, I told my wife I wasn’t sure if we were going to get an Adlai Stevenson or a Robert Kennedy. Nine years later, I’m still not sure. Nevertheless, I had that same sadness when he left. As to the current incumbent, I best leave my thoughts unstated, but perhaps it is enough to say, I hope London invites me to his party…

  4. Dallas says:

    I don’t know what you’re talking about, I’ve been hearing for weeks now how gracious conservatives were to Obama. How they were at least ready to give him a chance… you know the way that everyone should treat Trump now.

  5. John 20:29 says:

    Kevin – good advice and food for thought, too… thank you again…
    Obama came into office with some baggage – having spent some time in a middle-west state in the 1960s and having gotten to know the wife of a sheriff of a southern state in the 40s and 50s i can understand and fully sympathize…
    however, what i’m beginning to really believe is the theory that those who hold public office get their position from unseen manipulators – the wizards behind the curtain, as it were…
    for me the new administration may just be the push-back we need now – the yin and yang of our system – not against the man Obama (look for Michelle to make a run maybe in 2020?)…
    but either party, if you’ve got the power, you probably did not gain it by being a ‘nice’ person… thus, IMV, in the world of politics, there’s a whole lot more Bannons all over the political spectrum out there under the radar
    and further thus 🙂 my take is: don’t focus on any man – pray for those in authority over us as God can turn the hearts of kings – the good ones and the bad ones i understand

  6. Dallas says:

    London, what do you mix with im-Peach Schnapps?

  7. Truth Lover says:

    President Obama brought great immorality to our country. The day there were rainbow colors on the White House was a national disgrace and a day that aroused the wrath of God. He hates Israel and favors the Palestinians. He is anti Christian even though he professes to be one. He created more divisiveness in our racial tension and was a wimpy leader in foreign affairs. I rejoiced the day he left and Trump was sworn in. I share Trump’s policy issues. He will be a friend to Israel (which is huge), guard our religious liberties as Christians and I think will greatly help our economy.

  8. John 20:29 says:

    London and Duane i sincerely hope the planned party in four years turns out to be a celebration of a nation united and prospering (let’s hope that it’s four years off and we don’t foment another assassination with the now trending demonstrations)

    Samuel told Saul that rebellion [against God’s directions] is as the sin of witchcraft
    Proverbs 17:11 sometimes i think this is an observation that our politicians would do well to take under advisement – they obviously don’t read the Book, even if they sometimes use its words for political coinage

  9. Kevin H says:

    Truth Lover,

    Thanks for helping to illustrate some of my points.

    So the rainbow colors on the White House brought on the wrath of God? Please explain in detail how this was knowingly manifested and plain to see.

    And Obama hates Israel. Sure, some of his actions were unfavorable to Israel, but please explain how you can see into his heart to know that he “hates” Israel.

    Oh, and you may want to reconsider the moniker you use on this site.

  10. Xenia says:

    I was very sad when Pres. Obama gave his farewell speech. I knew we weren’t going to hear such elegant oration for the next four years.

    Still, Like Truth Lover at #7, I thought the rainbow colors on the White House was a terrible thing to see.

    I believe that Pres. Obama is a decent person. He has been faithful to his wife, for example. He certainly had different views on several topics than I do. I do not think the current president is a decent person.

    Our country is getting what it deserves. The Lord has given us what He thinks we need, probably as a chastisement.

  11. London says:

    I’m anticipating a party much sooner than 4 years from now. I don’t think he’ll last that long.

  12. CostcoCal says:

    I’m considered liberal by some.

    And those rainbow colors on the White House were horrible.

    God have mercy on our nation. And on me.

  13. Jean says:


    I hope you’re right.

  14. Jean says:

    “Our country is getting what it deserves. The Lord has given us what He thinks we need, probably as a chastisement.”

    Xenia, you may be right. Currently, I think it may be a “he gave them over…” moment.

  15. Duane Arnold says:

    Golly, I don’t know what you’re all worried about… Jerry Falwell, Jr. is going to head up the task force on higher education… No, not a joke… true.

    Lord Have Mercy… indeed.

  16. Jean says:

    Duane, at least it isn’t Ken Ham.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well, to follow Xenia and Jean’s logic (or bad theology in my book) if Trump is the “he gave them over” because of America’s bad acts – we are not allowed to change anything about Trump. God will have Trump in place until we change … so, take your focus off of Trump (which is actually fighting against God) and focus on your own actions.

    So, what are you all going to change in your life today to get God’s “he gave them over” removed?

  18. London says:

    Of course he is. That way they can totally decimate public education and privatize it in this country. They make money and at the same time, churn out good little workers, used to following orders without critical thinking skills, for their businesses.

    These appointments have nothing to do with the good of the everyday person in this country, and everything to do with rewarding those who backed Trump in some way. There will be no opposing viewpoints allowed.

  19. Dallas says:

    Maybe Trump is our judgement for that rainbow colored Whitehouse.

  20. John 20:29 says:

    London, Jean et al, be careful what you ask for…
    right now the core of the Democrat power worries me (not sayin you guys are Dems 🙂 )…
    their opposition is similar to a baseball game on a school playground – their team struck out and rather than play the other side of the game, now they don’t want to take the field playing out the game by the established rules…
    rather they’re trying to gather up the bats, balls and gloves and return them to equipment room with the declaration that the game is over unless they get to stay at bat – opposition has taken a strange turn or so it seems to me…
    dunno, tho do i? …

  21. John 20:29 says:

    ” good little workers, used to following orders without critical thinking skills” … from where i sit that seems to be what we’re churning out at the present… around here we call those folks plug-in appliances and big business has operated that way for decades now…

  22. London says:

    By not playing by the rules do you mean like when the Rebuplicans refused to hold hearing on Prsident Obamas choice for SCOTUS? Like that?

  23. John 20:29 says:

    the rainbow colored lights on the White House WAS grotesque… it may have been significant that they could only be seen after dark?

    now i quit… with one parting word, anyone who thinks Gorsuch is not a stellar nominee and an asset to the top level of the Judiciary structure of this nation should pray for…
    clearer thinking

    God keep

  24. Scooter Jones says:

    MLD, you make too much sense sometimes. Do you have a PHD in common sense, or what? 🙂

    Imagine that, “liberal christians” who love and embrace the political process for getting God’s will done, opposing what God has apparently given the U.S. in Trump.

  25. John 20:29 says:

    London, yep, like that…
    that election year hold off (i’m sure Mitchell enjoyed doing it, tho) on the most likely very good nomination that Obama presented was our traditional way down thru the years of showing courtesy to the incoming President … don’t forget that everyone thought the next President was to be Hillary C.

  26. Jean says:

    A rainbow light from the President signifying that gay people deserve the same liberty as straight people coming from the chief executive charged with enforcing our laws is grotesque how?

    Would you prefer the gays be discriminated against in housing or employment or maybe rounded up. Maybe then they’d submit to transition therapy, right? If not jail or exile?

  27. Anon says:


    See #7

    Unless you were being sarcastic…

  28. Michael says:

    Folks…let’s rise above the muck and engage as civilly as possible.

    We know we’re divided…how do we come together enough to continue having a civil society?

  29. Duane Arnold says:

    Alright, I’m going to go out on a limb here and may be banned from PhP for all time. I was not offended by the rainbow lights, nor by the ruling on same-sex marriage. We live in a secular country. We do not have a state church. I have always contended that we should have civil marriages for everyone (that is a matter for the state) – then let individual churches (or denominations) determine what sort of marriage they will bless or solemnize. When performing a marriage, I have always felt uncomfortable being a functionary of the state. I don’t see myself in that role. I am there representing the church. If same sex couples have been given equal protection under the law of the state, that is the state’s concern. Yes, I am concerned about what happens in the culture, but, to be honest, there are marriages that I see in the church that are much more immediate causes of concern.

    Just my opinion… I shall prepare for the stones to come flying my direction…

  30. Jean says:

    MLD, misread me entirely. God gave evangelicals over to their passion to have the country run on their vision to so alienate the nation from evangelicalism, so that it dies and God will purify a remnant who will seek first the kingdom of God.

  31. CostcoCal says:

    Well, to be fair.

    Obama put up that rainbow.

    But he wasn’t married three times.

    See! Equal opportunity offender. 🙂

  32. ( |o )====::: says:

    This is not “normal” and no amount of alt-fact spin should ever make it so…

    Speaking after the incident, Donald Trump’s Press Secretary Sean Spicer said: ‘To assume that just because of someone’s age and gender that they don’t pose a threat would be misguided and wrong.’

    #resist45 #cuffthatfiveyearoldyoucowards

  33. Anon says:

    “how do we come together enough to continue having a civil society”

    One thing that’s helped me is realizing that not everyone sees things the same. I know that sounds elementary…but if you can’t acknowledge that and you’re convinced that yours is the only “righteous” stance, how can you look at someone else’s POV?

    Also helps to acknowledge that not everything is a moral issue…but that’s part of the problem here. We can’t even agree on that!

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So God is punishing me because of Paula White?

    I am the blog’s biggest evangelical basher and even I don’t think that evangelicals have enough powder to move God in any direction — for the good or the bad.

    So which era of OT Israel is America and the evangelical church?

    Both your side and the evangelicals are identical to the Baal worshiper who battled with Elijah.

  35. Jean says:

    “So God is punishing me because of Paula White?”

    I don’t know anything about her other than I’ve heard she is preaches a prosperity gospel.

    “I am the blog’s biggest evangelical basher and even I don’t think that evangelicals have enough powder to move God in any direction — for the good or the bad.”

    You’re entitle to your opinion.

    “So which era of OT Israel is America and the evangelical church?” – I’m going straight out of Romans 1.

    “Both your side and the evangelicals are identical to the Baal worshiper who battled with Elijah.” – You sound like a Deist.

  36. covered says:

    I must confess that we have finally come to a place where I look forward to the next CC scandal so that there will be dialogue without such dissension. At least when someone screws up in the church, I can count on a Biblical discussion from every side without the division. For years this has been a wonderful place to learn and grow. Every person here who is currently engaged in arguing their case for their political view, in my opinion contributes so much more when they argue their interpretation of the Scriptures. I hope we can go back to the good old days soon…

  37. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    LOL, ““Both your side and the evangelicals are identical to the Baal worshiper who battled with Elijah.” – You sound like a Deist.”

    So whoever shouts to God the loudest and the longest wins? So God gives us what we want and then punishes us for it? So much for your God being a gracious heavenly father.

  38. CostcoCal says:

    “Pray for the king” is a New Testament directive.


    Heavenly Father, I pray for President Trump. Turn his heart to You, Your Word, and Your ways. Doing so, grant him wisdom and keep him safe. And Lord, the same for President Obama. Amen.

  39. Jean says:

    Truth Lover at #7 wrote:

    “The day there were rainbow colors on the White House was a national disgrace and a day that aroused the wrath of God.”

    This is theological stupidity on a massive scale. The wrath of God doesn’t need arousing, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

    Guess who Paul is talking about? That’s right – everyone, every single one of us. Why? “so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.” What’s the solution? “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.”

    People like True Lover conflate America with the kingdom of God and desecrate God’s name. Then their dispensationalism adds sin upon sin when they desecrate the Gospel as though it is lacking something for some segment of humanity.

  40. Jean says:

    “So much for your God being a gracious heavenly father.”

    “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

  41. CostcoCal says:

    Jean. Your #40 was quite ironic.

    You quoted Romans 1, of all places (!), in your angry rant about Truth Lover’s “theological stupidity.”

    We all know what that text says about said subject, right?

  42. Jean says:


    I’m not following you. If we all knew what Romans says, then how to we get statements like comment #7? Maybe I didn’t understand you. If not, could you clarify? Thanks.

  43. Jean says:


    I’m not angry. 🙂

  44. Jean says:

    By the way, since some of the Islamic nations give the death penalty for homosexuality, do people here think God is blessing those nations on that account? Are those Islamic nations more blessed by the Lord than America?

  45. Dallas says:

    Anon, I am very rarely not sarcastic on the Internet.

  46. Duane Arnold says:

    We are not in OT Israel…
    America, while a truly remarkable place, is not the Kingdom of God…
    Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, otherwise his followers would have fought…
    I have yet to find scripture that comments upon representative democracy…

    There are, however, constant themes that run through scripture – justice, love, humility, etc. – those are the guidelines by which we measure (or should measure) anyone from a pastor to a grocer to a plumber to a President…

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, @ 41
    Except you made the direct claim that God gave us the very thing he is punishing us for.

    Why doesn’t God heal my friends with cancer when they ask – but he seems to give the evangelicals exactly what they want?

    I don’t want to clog up Kevin’s very fine article –

  48. CostcoCal says:

    I’m happy you’re not angry, Jean!

    Rom 1 speaks of what very thing(s) the anger of God is aroused against.

    Those things are not limited to “men leaving the natural use of women” and “men burning in lust” for one another. But it is included.

    Even if you want to disagree with that conclusion, to state that Truth Lover made a “theologically stupid” statement is absurd.

    In my opinion.

  49. Jean says:


    “Except you made the direct claim that God gave us the very thing he is punishing us for.”

    That’s not what I said. If you want a serious response, you will have to be serious with your representations of what I say by carefully reproducing my arguments. I don’t have time to correct your misrepresentations.

  50. Jean says:


    If you were to draw up a list of the sins in Romans 1 that arouse the wrath of God, is there anyone you know or can conceive of who hasn’t committed any of them?

  51. Jean says:


    To get you started: “They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”

    Do not we all commit these sins regularly?

  52. CostcoCal says:

    I don’t know about you, Jean, but I haven’t “left my natural use of women” and “burned with lust for other men”…

    But since you are struggling with that, I’ll pray for you!

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, your claims of being misrepresented sound so much like Pee Wee Herman.

    Evangelicals cannot be given over without it affecting the entire nation – so what you were really saying is what I claimed you said – God gave us Trump for our past sins (unless you have a theology of punishment for future sin.)

    Now I will go.

  54. CostcoCal says:

    Lol… On one hand, Jean states God does not punish us for the list of Roman 1 sins.

    On the other hand, he insists God does punish us with Donald Trump.

    That’s nutso!!

    In my opinion.

  55. John 20:29 says:

    #26-Jean asked, “A rainbow light from the President signifying that gay people deserve the same liberty as straight people coming from the chief executive charged with enforcing our laws is grotesque how?”
    how did it signify that ideal? it wasn’t a rainbow light from the President, he wasn’t wearing a lapel pin… the White House light up like a cheap popsicle was grotesque…

    “Would you prefer the gays be discriminated against in housing or employment or maybe rounded up. Maybe then they’d submit to transition therapy, right? If not jail or exile?”
    a leading and prejudicial question – not worthy of a response 🙂

  56. Jean says:

    Costco Cal,

    I’m away from my computer right now and can’t respond very well. I will follow up later. Thanks.

  57. Scooter Jones says:

    I had to step away and help my wife clean the house. Has Duane Arnold been banned from the PP yet? 🙂

  58. London says:


    It appears we are not very good at following directions huh? 😉

  59. Xenia says:

    It’s one thing to say that all people, homosexual or heterosexual, deserve equal rights as Americans.

    It’s another thing entirely to glorify homosexuality, which I felt lighting up the White House did.

  60. CostcoCal says:

    Jean, okay.

    I’ve got your number.

    867 5309.

  61. Jean says:

    Oh no! Please everyone here, please don’t give that number out. I trust you all. 🙂

  62. Duane Arnold says:

    #58 Scooter

    Not yet…

  63. Michael says:

    # 63… never gonna happen.

    You’ve got a lot to teach us…

  64. Duane Arnold says:

    #64 Michael

    That sets my mind at ease… but then, of course, you’ve got “photographic evidence” on me…

  65. Kevin H says:


    The muck can be very enticing sometimes. 😉

  66. For me the cure for “political angstits” is to go out and serve. Get face to face with real people and seek to solve real problems. Yesterday I spent the morning talking about the gospel to a small group of former (hopefully) addicts and homeless moms. Didn’t think about Washington DC antics once!

    When I look at Jesus, doing ministry amid the heavy-handed Roman oppression of Israel, he never seemed to wring His hands or fall apart. He simply taught, healed and ministered to the people in His path.

    Politics we will always have with us. And we must be aware and involved. But the degree of hysteria that’s taken place over the last few years is (IMO) ridiculous. Some of us need to get a life. 🙂

  67. Truth Lover says:

    #9 Kevin H. Read Romans 1. I don’t know how God is going to reveal His wrath but surely the rainbow colors on the White House and all the rest of the sexual immorality freedoms he legislated provoked Him. As for the rest of your questions; I don’t have to explain to you the why’s of my discernment, but his actions speak plainly for themselves.

  68. Scooter Jones says:

    Duane Arnold, hopefully you know I was just teasing you 😉

  69. Michael says:


    There’s a point there that can’t be glossed over.
    The most effective protest is local ministry…

  70. CostcoCal says:

    You remember that song from the 80’s?

    “Jenny, I’ve got your number…867 5309”

    Okay, moving on…

  71. Duane Arnold says:

    #69 Scooter


  72. Scooter Jones says:

    Costco, you were listening to secular music back in the 80’s? What a carnal christian! 🙂

  73. JonnyB says:

    Once again, well handled. A topic that is hard to discuss for most of us.

    These people have a great attitude (pics)

  74. ( |o )====::: says:

    : update to my #32 ::

    I was just informed by a friend that this image is not related to the actions of the current administration. With that in mind I am retracting my quote and commentary.

    I’m now opening a new search to see why a cop would cuff a little kid?

  75. John 20:29 says:

    don’t know about the cop, but there were times i would gladly have handcuffed my overactive 5 year old son and all his buddies, too LOL

  76. John 20:29 says:

    was the policeman using those zip straps? do handcuffs clamp small enough to hold a little tikes hands? … why am i thinking about this anyway? … 🙂

  77. ( |o )====::: says:

    John 20:29
    Yeah, one of my daughters was sometimes “overactive”. I gently would scoop her up and carry her out of whatever scene we were disturbing. I often got very approving “Attaboy” looks from strangers and I’d reply with a knowing :: wink! ::

    All these years later she is one of the finest humans to grace the planet because she grew up with boundaries, patience and unconditional love, from her awesome mom and dorky me.

  78. Steve Wright says:

    I didn’t read every comment but many of them so forgive me if this has been said.

    The funniest thing about watching politically liberal Christians talk about Trump being sent to America for our sins is the apparent forgetting that the alternative was Hillary Clinton.

    Now…if someone wants to make the case (and some try) that both of these individuals are immoral, ungodly, prideful human beings…and thus God presented us these two choices…then that is a little different.

    But for a liberal to bemoan Trump alone, as if Hillary would have been the arrival of Josiah or Hezekiah….well, like I said…funny indeed.

  79. dusty says:

    Good work pinapple. Head! Thanks for sharing that with us.

  80. JD says:

    I used to buy my daughter toy metal handcuffs from the ice cream truck, never crossed my mind to actually slap ’em on her (sugar and spice and everything nice). The boy is a little young to spend a night in the Hooskou.
    My teacher just tied me up in my chair in the field outside of the row of classrooms, using that yellow rope. Took a few minutes for me to get loose, and the whole school full of kids looking out the windows cheered when I stood on the chair, holding the rope in my hands high over my head in victory.
    Best teacher I ever had! From then on I was the coolest kid in school! ;?

  81. Jean says:


    You wrote: “Lol… On one hand, Jean states God does not punish us for the list of Roman 1 sins. On the other hand, he insists God does punish us with Donald Trump. That’s nutso!!”

    Let me begin with the how Christ rules the nations (or the “Left Hand Kingdom”) (Duane, feel free to jump in with Augustine’s alternative theology):

    “And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place” – We believe that Christ establishes, raises and brings down the nations.

    “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” See also, “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” – We also believe that Christ rules all the nations.

    However, He rules by his providence or hidden will. This means He doesn’t reveal, and we cannot perceive, from looking at events in the world WHY God carries them out or permits them to happen.

    If you look around the world in comparison to America, some nations have longer life expectancies, while others shorter; some have more crime, some less; some have more freedoms, some less; some are at peace, some are at war; some are growing in population and/or wealth, others are shrinking; some have more divorce, some less; etc.

    I would argue that you cannot look at the nations and perceive God’s blessing or wrath on the basis of observing a nation putting up a rainbow flag, suffering an earthquake, legalizing gambling, having an open carry laws, legalizing pornography, outlawing homosexuality, a terrorist attack, or you name it. God doesn’t work like that; his will is hidden. Just ask Job, or the 18 upon whom the tower of Siloem fell, or the man born blind or the Galileans who had their blood mixed with their sacrifices by Pilate.

    But what do all the nations have in common? Every one of us is terminal. We are all going to die. the wages of sin is death. That is the lesson of Romans 1:18-3:20.

    We don’t know the day or the hour. Could be a baby in the womb from an abortion; could be a serial killer who lives to 100 years of age. God’s will is hidden.

    Therefore, we must reject the nonsense of those who prophesy or declare God’s wrath in view of a rainbow flag lit up at the White House. God’s wrath is all around us all the time every time you turn on the news or pick up a newspaper.

    I will stop here for discussion, before moving on the right hand kingdom.

  82. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    With all of the claims of what we don’t know or can’t know about God’s will here, why would you then discount perhaps God gave to America the great gift of Donald Trump? Perhaps those opposed to what Trump has been doing are actually working as anti Christ as did Peter when he denied Jesus and as did Judas when he betrayed Jesus.

    How do you know this is not the case?

    *** disclaimer – I don’t travel in those circles of God’s daily judging nations in the NT era. My thought is that Jesus judges on the last day as we see in Matthew 25.”***

  83. dusty says:

    Michael @70 said, “PH,

    There’s a point there that can’t be glossed over.
    The most effective protest is local ministry…”

    I totally agree!!

  84. Jean says:


    God does raise up evil leaders to accomplish his purpose. So, if you consider Trump a gift, then so be it.

    Regarding the anti-Christ, I’m not an anti-Christ expert, but isn’t the anti-Christ a teacher of false doctrine? I don’t see a connection between the anti-Christ and a leader of a nation.

  85. Scooter Jones says:

    I re-read Isaiah 45. It certainly helped to re-focus my perspective on the sovereignty of God.

  86. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    the anti christ people running around in the NT were those who both deny Jesus from within the church (see Peter – Jesus did call him Satan) and those who bring harm on the church (see Judas – 1 of the 12 but a betrayer) and those who run around the church teaching false doctrines.

    The point is, if Trump was sent by God to raise up America or even to be a curse on America – isn’t it going against God to try to stop what Trump is doing?

    Now if Trump is just Trump and not sent by God for any purpose, well then you can swing away – but you cannot claim we know not God’s hidden will and then claim Trump is it.

  87. em ... again says:

    all the words we use here trying to sort out our thots and our understanding of each other when it is all so simple:
    Pineapple Head says, “For me the cure for “political angstits” is to go out and serve.”
    Michael says, “There’s a point there that can’t be glossed over.
    The most effective protest is local ministry…”
    dusty says, “I totally agree!!”

    and i say, AMEN 🙂

  88. Jean says:

    “The point is, if Trump was sent by God to raise up America or even to be a curse on America – isn’t it going against God to try to stop what Trump is doing?”

    God is most certainly sovereign in the election of Trump. But why? We don’t know. What is the Christian response? Faithfulness in our vocations. One such vocation is citizenship. For those who see Trump doing or planing evil, they in their vocation of citizen, motivated by love of neighbor, may demonstrate against Trump.

    If God is disciplining the Church for its conflation with secular government, or for not being faithful in marriage, or any number of other self-inflicted wombs, then such discipline will elicit a response.

  89. Ha! Although not a real word, I could at least have spelled it correctly: political ANGSTITIS. My previous spelling doesn’t read so well. 🙂

  90. Scooter Jones says:

    Jean, “self-inflicted wombs”? A Freudian slip? 😉

  91. Kevin H says:

    Truth Lover,

    @68, If God’s wrath was raised every time somebody committed one of the sins in Romans 1 we’d all be toast by now and there would be nothing left of this world. Unless one has overwhelming evidence for such, to pick one specific incident and say this is the one that has definitively raised God’s wrath is to speak where one never should speak.

    As for your charge of Obama’s “hatred” of Israel, it is much of the same story. Obama’s actions do speak for themselves in that he did not favor Israel as much as some (even many) thought he should. To make the charge of “hatred” is again going too far unless one has convincing evidence.

  92. Jean says:

    How I wish blog comments had an after-the-fact edit function. 🙂

  93. Scooter Jones says:

    Jean, that’s why I disabled the autocorrect feature on my not so smart phone a long time ago 😉

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “For those who see Trump doing or planing evil,”
    So then the individual becomes the diviner of good and evil.

    Let’s talk evil and see if you had the same reaction. When Obamacare was rolled out it was done in just as shoddy manner as Trumps immigration policy – with one huge difference. When Obamacare was rolled out far more American’s faced the catastrophe of having lost their insurance – 1000s fold numbers vs the green card folks who were detained a couple of days in an airport (my goodness, mother nature does that with blizzards)

    So, how evil was the work of Obama in your eyes and did you lobby to stop this evil? and believe me, this went on far longer than this 90 day ban.

  95. Jean says:


    You’re insane. The ACA was rolled out over a period of years. But, I’m not interested in re-litigating the ACA. I’m not even going to debate you regarding Trump’s executive order. If you like it, good for you. I’m not going to call you stupid or my enemy. But don’t use sophistry to solicit my approval of it.

    Many of us understand that the EO did nothing to make America safer (arguably accomplishing the opposite), but was a propaganda stunt to show Trump is getting stuff done. It is working just as intended as Trump’s supporters are pumped.

  96. filbertz says:

    ah, the muck. Just my luck. I’m stuck. Best huck…then duck.

  97. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, Dismissive replies don’t bother me or stop me. 🙂
    ACA did nothing to make America healthier just as you claim the EO didn’t make America safer.. It made some healthier – and left some in the dust. But I am glad that you and your buddies have sat around the Tap House and determined foreign policy.

    All the more issue with ACA that over years and it was still a disaster for those who lost their insurance. I know – my daughter who fought her way through nursing school as a single mother lost her company insurance, through a hospital because of ACA and could not get any. She had to dump her kids, my grandkids in Medical and went without care for 10 months, which as a over 40 woman is not good.

    The question is, why can you call Trump policy evil and not Obama’s?

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But the larger point is the claim of God’s intervention and judgment. I find it funny that God turned the evngelicals over to their desire to have Trump and as you point out it is the rest of the world suffering the pain of the Trump presence and those who were turned over to their own desire are thanking God.

    The theology behind this is more closely related to Karma than Christianity.

  99. Jean says:

    The Church is good leaven in the world. Wherever the Church is healthy, the surrounding heathen are probably much better off (and vice versa).

  100. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But our government is not the Church.
    I do not want our government operated by the Bible – I want it run on our founding documents. In the end I would rather be governed by a righteous Turk than a corrupt Christian. 😉

  101. Jean says:

    More straw.

  102. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    More dismissive attitude. (unless “straw” is some acronym for “I think you are right.
    You want a theocracy and I want a Republic.
    SCOTUS? I don’t care if he has ever read the Bible, as long as he has read the Constitution.

    My pastor – I want to know he has read the Bible and I don’t care if he has read the Constitution.

  103. Jean says:

    Good night MLD.

  104. Scooter Jones says:

    Harry S Truman brought some perspective when he said the following:

    It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose yours.

  105. Muff says:

    Oh the theatre, oh the imbroglio the American people got sucked into!
    It was either the Wicked Witch of the East or Il Duce.
    Some choice.
    I remember the scene in Soylent Green where Edward G. Robinson weeps into his palms and says: “…How did we come to this!…”

  106. Hannah says:

    I started reading here ten years ago or more.

    I’m concerned about this conversation.
    Isn’t God ultimately in control of all things?
    Can’t we rest in that ?

  107. John 20:29 says:

    “SCOTUS? I don’t care if he has ever read the Bible, as long as he has read the Constitution” now that is … pithy …
    some on the left are saying that the candidate’s mother is a jailbird? is that right? well, if it is, i say bravo, look what he had to overcome in his life… Gorsuch is, however an Episcopalian so he probably has been catechized 🙂

    MLD’s nurse daughter and the insurance under ACA is absolutely correct… my nurse daughter (who also put herself thru school – stubborn girl) also in her 40s and in need of medical attention to her back is on the only affordable insurance plan – itt might give her some coverage if she had a catastrophic illness that completely disabled her…

  108. John 20:29 says:

    all history WILL work out according to God’s plan, but it is in the mind of man to try to think God’s thoughts for Him, not after Him 🙂 we’re very confused LOL

    if find everyone’s train of thinking here very interesting, but one thing does concern me more than anything else in this discussion… so many strong Believers are in the Evangelical communities – we may be treading on dangerous ground when we mock them… not saying there’s not stupidity and maybe even chicanery in the evangelical ranks, but there’s a whole lot of God’s family there also

  109. John 20:29 says:

    shoot… #110 – let that read “i find…” not “if…”

  110. Scooter Jones says:

    Gorsuch’s mother was a jailbird? LOL

    I heard Nancy Pelosi last night say that Gorsuch was essentially against women, clean water, homosexuals, for big corporations, rich people and pharmaceutical companies.

    She pretty much covered all the bases. The mantra is really getting predictable and old.

  111. Scooter Jones says:

    I also see that the left-wing brown shirts are out in force tonight in Berkley. What are they protesting exactly?

  112. Paul A. Lytton says:

    Hannah @ #108,

    I agree with you. Is there anyone here that does not agree that it is in fact in God’s plan for there to be both a ‘beast’ preparing for the ‘antichrist’, the antichrist himself, a one world evil government and a one world monetary system? This will end with His final coming and all evil to be abolished?

    According to my Bible, in the last days, evil will dominate the world and it will be accepted as being correct by all people,save the elite. Should we not all rejoice in the sign of massive corruption magnifying it’s power and fame?

    God’s plan is not to develop evil to take place, it is to warn us about it’s coming and too tell us we can rest assured ‘Righteousness’ well prevail? Why do we want to slow it down instead of being happy it is speeding it up?

    I want the Lord to come soon. By wanting this, I also want worldly corruption to reach it’s climax quickly.

    I truly believe that is why we are to be comfortable with God’s placement in the kings of the Earth.

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “What are they protesting exactly?”

    Free speech and opposing ideas.

  114. Scooter Jones says:

    They’re protesting free speech? LOL

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well they guy went out to exercise his free speech rights and they started a riot to stop him. So yes, they were protesting free speech.

    Back in the day of us older guys, Berkeley protested and rioted for free speech – now they riot to curtail it.

  116. Scooter Jones says:

    Holy moly, I just finished watching some videos of these “protesters.”

    They were beating up people who were Trump supporters? A man pepper sprayed a young woman who was wearing a MAGA hat.

    Seriously? Is this where this is going?

  117. Truth Lover says:

    Kevin H at #63;

    I think we are being nit picky and splitting hairs. My words : “God’s wrath was aroused with the rainbow colors of the White House” was my way of trying to say what a horrendous national slap in the face of God it was that the President himself would condone homosexual marriage and all that goes with it. But let’s use Biblical language now. God’s wrath is being “stored up” and sinners without Christ will realize His final wrath on the day of judgment. Romans 2:5 “But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.… ” Man’s sin can bring God’s judgment here and now too but that is entirely up to God as to what that is. I am NOT one who quickly jumps to conclusions and credits God’s wrath to a disaster. But we DO know God hates sin, punishes sin and His wrath breaks out when and how He chooses. Yes, I have very strong feelings about Obama because of his anti Christian comments all the while posing as a Christian and his liberal policies that have brought great harm to our nation. How I see it; Obama legislated great sexual immorality and our nation and culture will reap the whirlwind because of it.

  118. Hannah says:


    I agree.
    I think it’s what you believe about the end times that makes a difference in how you view current events.
    I want The Lord to return soon as well. We are sojourners. This is not our home.
    I grieve for what I am reading. I grieve for those who don’t know him, and whose lives are in chaos over an election. It seems an opportune time for someone to come representing world peace…

    It all seems to be fitting into place. Very quickly. Every generation thought it would be in their lifetime.. I feel a greater urgency to share the Good News with the lost.

    Our kids need to be right with The Lord. That’s what I am praying for.

  119. Kevin H says:

    Truth Lover,

    You can’t make a bold and blanket statement saying, ““God’s wrath was aroused with the rainbow colors of the White House”, and then say I’m being nitpicky about it. Try to justify it any way you want, it was still wrong.

    And now it looks like you continue to dig your hole even deeper. You now say Obama is “posing” as a Christian. You can try to qualify this one too if you want, but the normal context in which you make the statement would imply that he’s not really a Christian, only that he is trying to make himself look like one. So again using the normally understood context, you are making the charge that Obama is not a Christian. Once again, this would be wrongfully overstepping your bounds. I don’t know about you, but I know I certainly don’t hold a copy of the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    Obama professes to have a faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Are there things he has done and said that can make us wonder whether his profession is real? Sure. Can we make the jump to saying that we know he’s not a real Christian? No. If we do, we once again speak where no one should speak.

  120. John 20:29 says:

    because my scheduled reading time this morning was in the 16th chapter of ezekiel, i find it a little scary to think that our former President and a goodly portion of our population are/have been celebrating a twisted form of what today we call diversity – but that’s O.T., i know so i pray for grace and mercy – lots of reasons to ponder what #114 is addressing… (the world truly does seem to be calling good, evil and evil, good) but…
    God can always rewind His clock – it is for Him to call the fulness of time

  121. Duane Arnold says:

    Whoa! Stopped in on the thread this morning to get some inspiration and found myself in a Last Days Conference…

    #83 Jean
    Augustine is clear that there is a good deal of inter-mingling between the City of God and the City of Man. For him, there can be believers in the City of Man and unbelievers in the City of God. We won’t know the true state of play until the judgement. The main theme, however, is that the Church (the City of God) should not identify itself with the State (the City of Man). He is not even willing to conclude that the sack of Rome was the judgement of God – it’s more, “maybe yes, maybe no…” – because kingdoms (and, yes, republics) rise and fall. That is the nature of the City of Man. It is temporal and temporary by definition. The City of God, on the other hand, is eternal. Those who have gone before us in faith and those of us who are here in the world are part of the same Church. Eternity breaks in on us through Word and Sacrament. So, for Augustine, our main effort is to be directed toward the City of God. In the City of Man, we will find only imperfect justice…

  122. Duane Arnold says:

    # 124 PH

    Nicely done…

  123. Ha! I posted so late in the game, I figured no one would see it. Thanks Duane…

  124. Truth Lover says:

    Kevin H. #121 Why are you trying so hard to make a big deal out of my opinions? You have yours, I have mine. Can’t YOU just rise above the muck? It seems people like me irritate you? I think you’d better work on yourself than try to work me over. If I have to “try” to convince you Obama is NOT a Christian but a poser, you are in a sorry state. Ever read the book of 1 John with all the proofs of what a Christian looks like? Also, I clarified to you what I meant about the wrath of God which is Biblical, so why don’t you still get it? I really have better things to do than argue with you. I don’t argue on this blog. I have too much to do. It seems your blog post was really written for you?

  125. John 20:29 says:

    Kevin H. thank you so very much for taking the trouble to write these blog posts… thinking and examining our thoughts is good for everyone… didn’t our Lord say, “come let us reason together?” … we can still try today, even if our Teacher has left it up to us … for now

    just my opinion… on opinions LOL

  126. Dan from Georgia says:

    Yes Kevin, thank you for your posts. Great job!

  127. Kevin H says:

    Truth Lover,

    “I really have better things to do than argue with you. I don’t argue on this blog. I have too much to do.” – Quite ironic then that you have continued to do so.

    “It seems your blog post was really written for you?” – Of course. They’re always written with me included. Things that I need to be cognizant of and work on. But I believe others sometimes find worth in my words, too. The feedback tells me as much, including just the last couple comments before this one.

    “Why are you trying so hard to make a big deal out of my opinions? You have yours, I have mine. Can’t YOU just rise above the muck? It seems people like me irritate you?” – This is about far more than opinions. When one sinks to the level of making unsubstantiated accusations and bearing false witness, then yeah, I get irritated. Especially when they come from someone who chooses to bear the name of “Truth Lover”. And since you have provided some very relevant illustrations of what I was writing about, yeah, I choose to highlight them. Pointing out the muck does not mean one is lowering themselves into it.

  128. Truth Lover says:

    Kevin H. it seems to me you get irritated by anyone who has an opposing opinion (kind of like the liberals are doing with Trump) I honestly can’t figure out why you are coming at me like a bull dog? You have a problem with getting too riled up! Let it go. You need to re-read your own post! Not everyone is going to be like you Kevin H. Can you accept that? This is the reason many are arguing on social media; because other opinions are not respected. You don’t have to agree with me but don’t insult me and come at me. Just listen. Maybe you too will learn something. To me, you have completely invalidated your pious post.

  129. em ... again says:

    i think deep down we are all truth lovers … the problems are separating truths from our own expectations and unrecognized biases, not being offended by others’ opinions when they counter what we think are our own carefully thought out conclusions and… there’s probably at least one more problem, but…
    that’s all the truth i can take for the moment 🙂

  130. Kevin H says:

    Truth Lover,

    I see you still can’t find those better things to do. Nevertheless, this will be my last response to you on this as this appears to be a fruitless exercise.

    “Kevin H. it seems to me you get irritated by anyone who has an opposing opinion” – Do we really need to go over this ground again? It is not about having an opposing opinion. It is about wrongful behavior that has irritated me. Wrongful behavior that I speak about in my original article.

    If it was just about opposing opinions, there are plenty of people I could have argued with on this thread. Yet, if you take notice, you are the only one I have chosen to engage in an argument. Despite your attempts to characterize me in such ways, I think I have shown myself over the years here to be one of the ones on the lesser side of getting riled up, the lesser side of getting irritated, the lesser side of engaging in arguments, and the lesser side of expecting everyone to be like me and to accept things to be the way as I say. Perfect in these ways? Most certainly not. But I will let my record stand for itself.

    The bottom line is I wrote about how we as Christians should avoid the unhealthy elements and attitudes of the political muck. Much of what you have commented here falls right into those things I said we should avoid. And so I chose to point them out to further illustrate what I was speaking of.

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