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101 Responses

  1. Linnea says:

    MLD… Thanks for the link to the Naked Pastor blog. The post and comments are good reading and bring up important issues in spiritual abuse. People who work in the field of Christian psychology will not hesitate to tell you that abusers are attracted to spiritual power because it affords them almost complete control over their victims. A police officer or politician does not have that same control because our spirit is the deepest part of our being. Those who are spiritual leaders wield much influence and that is why God I believe holds them to a higher, not more lenient, account. That and that God cares for his people and His own reputation

  2. Linnea says:

    Oops–think I posted this on the wrong thread…mobile posting– it’s not what it’s cracked up to be!

  3. Linnea – I thought the whole thing was a hoot. I found the Naked Pastor, Tony Jones, Doug Padgit, the scorned ex wife and almost all the commenters to be both abused and abusers.

    I am sure they are one spiritually incestuous group.

  4. Alex says:

    Obama’s comin’ to Boise tomorrow. If Saeed was a Golf Course, a Vacation or a black American, or a Muslim….Nagmeh would have a chance.

    Nagmeh is screwed.

  5. Alex says:

    …I forgot gay or transgender.

  6. Why is he going to Idaho? to pick up the 3 democrat votes? 😉

  7. Nonnie says:

    This is for Alex and MLD’s last few comments:

  8. Bob Sweat says:

    Come on MLD, Idaho has many democrats! Remember the late Senator Frank Church?

  9. Alex says:

    MLD said, “Why is he going to Idaho? to pick up the 3 democrat votes?”

    Ya, we’re scratching our collective heads here. WIFHIM?

    Speculations are:

    He’s got a boyfriend in Boise (lots of good looking people here).

    The marijuana in the North End is really good (or so I am told).

    A new mosque was built recently.

    It was the whitest State he could think of to make him feel blacker. He goes to most anywhere else and he’s one of the whitest dudes in the room.

  10. Jim says:

    Politics of poverty and race…

    Was this a comedy piece?

    “Many unjust systems, past and current, keep Americans in poverty, from housing discrimination and unequal access to quality education to mass incarceration and racial profiling.”

    The only relevant causation cited by the author is education. I’ll assume that he supports vouchers.

    I look forward to the next thinly veiled hit piece, which references but deflects from Great Society failure will address the 20 million whites in poverty, which is twice the number of blacks in poverty.

  11. Corby says:

    This is from the story cited in link #1 about Mary, followed by a question.

    8. Some Catholic tradition emphasizes Mary as a “mediatrix” — the Church’s finest intercessor for prayer.

    This language makes many Protestants nervous, but it needs to be understood for what the Church has taught. It’s not that her intercessory role infringes upon Christ’s role; instead, just as Protestants ask others to pray for them as intercessors, so the Catholic tradition teaches that Mary — in the communion of saints who are praying for those on earth — is an intercessor. One can at least observe that Mary attempted to be a mediator between Jesus and those who had run out of wine at the wedding in Cana in John 2:1-11.”>

    This seems to suggest, and I’ve heard it referenced in Catholic traditions as well as what I would call “wishful thinking” of those who have lost loved ones, that believers who have died, along with Mary, spend some of their time in Heaven praying for those of us still alive on earth. Is there any specific scriptural basis for this idea?

    To be honest, and I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but I have lost loved ones as near and dear to me as anyone else, this sounds rather sappy to me. The idea that someone who is now in the presence of God in some form until the resurrection comes, spends their time thinking and praying about what’s happening hear on Earth just seems silly to me. Why would they? This wasn’t their home while they were here (just as it isn’t out home, we’re pilgrims), nor is it their home while in Heaven. That might sound cold or heartless to some, but the thought my my dead grandmother, who was a second mother to me growing up, is looking down on me from Heaven seems more emotionally driven than Biblically based.

    I just don’t see it even lauded to in scripture. Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. But the dead praying saints seems consistent with the “earthly focus” of our more ancient traditions. When I die, I’m done here. I will be with my Savior, with my Creator, in some form until I’m resurrected and then live with Him in that form. My thoughts will not be for the things of this world. God has that in hand. Jesus has that covered. If being in prayer after death were something we were to be planning for it seems like there would have been some instruction on the matter. Instead I read about being in His presence, seeing Him as He is, throwing down my crowns.

    We are told to pray for one another while we are here together. I totally see that. I see no exhortation from Paul let alone Jesus to pray for those who are on earth after we die, or that we will be doing that as a matter of practice. I can see how some might make inferences and read into the text the possibility and build a doctrine out of it, but I don’t see it plainly taught.

    Or is it just me?

  12. Alex says:

    Jim said, “….20 million whites in poverty, which is twice the number of blacks in poverty.”

    Yes, good point.

    IQ has a lot to do with it. There are direct correlations to higher IQ and higher income.

    The Nations with the highest IQ’s are the most Wealthy and “happiest”…and the Nations with the lowest IQ’s are the most backward and barbaric.

    It’s so precise you can nearly set your watch to it.

  13. Michael says:


    “Plainly taught” is often only in the eyes of a tradition…

    I am not a proponent of the doctrine of the church victorious interceding for us in heaven, so I’m not equipped to defend it.
    The Bible does say that we are encircled by a great cloud of witnesses and there is some logic in the rational that those in heaven are every bit as alive as those who are here with us.

    In any case, I don’t see it as a harmful or heretical practice.

    When I die, I’m not done here…I’m simply awaiting the complete reclamation of the planet, then I’ll be right back in Oregon. 🙂

  14. Alex says:

    Colorado will be a third world country in a decade.

  15. Alex says:

    “When I die, I’m done here. I will be with my Savior, with my Creator, in some form until I’m resurrected and then live with Him in that form.”

    Disembodied human spirits capable of functioning and sensing and being etc w/o the human body is an interesting doctrine.

  16. Alex says:

    …actually I think they call it Gnosticism and the spirit without the human flesh is called the “divine spark”…it’s also referred to as Dualism.

  17. SJ says:

    I think “Hope for Dirtbags” deserves to be mailed to my incarcerated brother.

  18. Corby says:

    Michael @ 13 – I understand what you mean in terms of plain-ness and tradition. But I also think you know what I mean. Peter as the first Pope is a teaching of the church, but it isn’t a teaching of scripture, and is in fact contrary to what we see in scripture. And I do see it as potentially harmful, to a degree. To me it gives a false impression, a false hope in a way, to someone who is hoping for something for someone “in the beyond.”

    Alex @ 15 – I don’t know what else to call it. When we die we are not in our resurrected bodies immediately. Jesus and Paul teach a literal, physical, bodily resurrection. What goes into the ground is not the same as what comes out of the ground. Between death and that day we exist in some form. Call it a disembodied human spirit capable of functioning and sensing. The alternative is soul sleep which is not Biblical.

  19. SJ says:

    Me at 17, obviously with caveat of “me too” so as not to offend.

  20. Alex, if you think that is weird just imagine the “so called” millennial kingdom with fully flesh people interacting with ‘intermediate state’ people.

    That weirds me out.

  21. Alex says:

    “Jesus the Christ died in the literal sense in which all men die. He underwent a physical dissolution by which His immortal spirit was separated from His body of flesh and bones, and that body was actually dead. While the corpse lay in Joseph’s rock-hewn tomb, the living Christ existed as a disembodied Spirit. We are justified in inquiring where He was and what were His activities during the interval between His death on the cross and His emergence from the sepulchre with spirit and body reunited, a resurrected Soul. The assumption that most naturally suggests itself is that He went where the spirits of the dead ordinarily go; and that, in the sense in which while in the flesh He had been a Man among men, He was, in the disembodied state a Spirit among spirits. This conception is confirmed as a fact by scriptural attestation.”

    Would you agree with that description of how it works above?

  22. Alex says:

    Is the “spirit” part of you a spiritual being before your flesh is born?

    When does your spirit begin? You all seem to believe that you as a being are flesh and spirit/soul or flesh and spirit and soul (dichotomist or trichotomist)…

    Both Camps (except soul sleep) seem to believe that the “spirit” you is separate from the flesh you.

    As such…the bible does describe living spirit beings before they were woven together in the womb…which would seem to say we have all been around as “spirits” much longer than our flesh, no?

    You seem to be stating earlier in the thread that you are a being outside of your flesh…

  23. Alex, I think that’s enough with the Mormon stuff.

  24. Michael says:


    It’s not a doctrine I hold to, but I don’t completely discount the possibility that there is some truth to it.
    Frankly, I think the teaching of a pre trip rapture is far more unbiblical and harmful, but I also understand the reasons people believe it.
    Perhaps Xenia will shed some more light from the Orthodox viewpoint…

  25. Francisco says:

    Re E.Caner’s resignation. I was not aware that he had lost his son recently. Very sad.
    May the Lord bring comfort to him and his family.

  26. Michael says:


    Are you back home?

  27. Alex says:

    The Mormon stuff makes some sense if you believe what Corby expressed:

    “As heretofore showna Jesus Christ was the chosen and ordained Redeemer and Savior of mankind; to this exalted mission He had been set apart in the beginning, even before the earth was prepared as the abode of mankind. Unnumbered hosts who had never heard the gospel, lived and died upon the earth before the birth of Jesus. Of those departed myriads many had passed their mortal probation with varying degrees of righteous observance of the law of God so far as it had been made known unto them, but had died in unblamable ignorance of the gospel; while other multitudes had lived and died as transgressors even against such moiety of God’s law to man as they had learned and such as they had professed to obey. Death had claimed as its own all of these, both just and unjust. To them went the Christ, bearing the transcendently glorious tidings of redemption from the bondage of death, and of possible salvation from the effects of individual sin. This labor was part of the Savior’s foreappointed and unique service to the human family. The shout of divine exultation from the cross, “It is finished,” signified the consummation of the Lord’s mission in mortality; yet there remained to Him other ministry to be rendered prior to His return to the Father.

    To the penitent transgressor crucified by His side, who reverently craved remembrance when the Lord should come into His kingdom,b Christ had given the comforting assurance: “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” The spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the repentant thief left their crucified bodies and went to the same place in the realm of the departed.c On the third day following, Jesus, then a resurrected Being, positively stated to the weeping Magdalene: “I am not yet ascended to my Father.” He had gone to paradise but not to the place where God dwells. Paradise, therefore, is not Heaven, if by the latter term we understand the abode of the Eternal Father and His celestialized children.d Paradise is a place where dwell righteous and repentant spirits between bodily death and resurrection. Another division of the spirit world is reserved for those disembodied beings who have lived lives of wickedness and who remain impenitent even after death. Alma, a Nephite prophet, thus spake of the conditions prevailing among the departed:

    “Now concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection. Behold, it has been made known unto me, by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body; yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass that the spirits of those who are righteous, are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise; a state of rest; a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil; for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house; and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and this because of their own iniquity; being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked: yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful, looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.”

  28. Alex says:

    Don’t be scared, it’s just another theory and philosophy and while I’m not a Mormon, it does seem to dove-tail with the belief in Disembodied spirits and humans as essentially “spirit beings” housed in flesh…which is essentially what Corby described humans as.

  29. Francisco says:

    Hi Michael,
    Yes made it back home in one piece this last weekend. The Lord is doing a good work in Zacatecas.

    Thanks for your prayers my friend! Glad to me back home.

  30. Alex says:

    If one argues for No Pre-existence…then that makes it tough to argue against Abortion…it means the Soul/Spirit comes after the flesh and the sign of sentience and manifestation of intelligence isn’t until well after conception.

  31. London says:

    The Chad West article on dirt bags is excellent for its honestly about wishing church was a place that people could just be honest.
    I pretty regularly attend a recovery based service at one of the largest, trendy churches in town. There’s very much that feel of, man, we are ALL messed up. People are, for the most part, in so much pain at that point, that the pretending hurts more than the honesty.
    The same thing can not be said of the weekend services at the same place. It’s a place where “the cool kids” go, and that’s ok too.
    But, ill take sitting in a pew with the rest of the screw ups anyday.

  32. Alex says:


    Bible says only spirit can come from spirit, spirit cannot come from flesh.

    Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.”

    Kind of throws a wrench in the “Flesh first” argument…that spirit/soul is then created/born after the flesh…

  33. Xenia says:

    The basic idea is that when a Christian dies, he doesn’t disappear into nothingness or is not cut off from the Christian community. He or she is still a part of the Church. The Saints have run their race and are up in heaven, cheering on those whose turn it is to run. We see them as a living, vibrant part of the Church.

    For example, my patron Saint is St. Xenia of St. Petersburg who lived in the 18th century. She wandered the streets of the city, not really living anywhere but welcome in all places. If you gave her a ruble she would immediately give it to the next person she met. She had the gift of prophecy. She could calm colicky babies. She did sneaky good deeds at night when no one could see her to praise her. She lived a holy life and when she died, people began to visit her grave and ask for her prayers. Answers to many prayers were miraculously granted and maybe 40 years ago she was recognized as a Saint, worthy to be venerated. She is not a deity but she dwells in the presence of Deity. When I ask St. Xenia to pray for some of my wayward family members, I see “the effective fervent prayers of a righteous (wo)man” availing much. Yes, I can pray (and do) straight to God but who among the worst iconoclasts does not ask a friend to pray for them? St. Xenia is my heavenly friend. She’s not God, just someone who ran the race before me and is cheering me on as I run mine.

    The boundary between heaven and earth is very thin in Ortholandia.

    I should add that the Church does not “make” a person a Saint, we just recognize those who, because of the way they died (martyric death, maybe) or miracles after their death give evidence that these people really made it to heaven. There are millions of Saints that have not been recognized.

    In anticipating a common question, yes, all believers are saints.

    “Saints” are those that have been especially recognized.

    Veneration =/= worship.

  34. Xenia says:

    To put it in the simplest terms, we venerate the Saints because we love them.

  35. Not afraid of Mormon stuff, it’s just that I come here for Christian conversation. If I wanted Mormon inundation, I’d go to one of their sites.

  36. Shocked that Caner resigned.

  37. Alex – you are still applying Sabermetrics to Christianity… it doesn’t work that way.

    You are actually Mormon in that your God is really a man and you can think like him.

  38. Alex says:

    Well, I’m sure along with everything else when Jesus said, this it isn’t literal: “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit”

    ….must be a metaphor because we are born with souls/spirit in tact according to orthodoxy…and all souls/spirits live on for eternity according to an orthodox Christian position in either heaven or hell. Essentially every soul is eternal “after” you are born of the flesh…so the soul/spirit is born of the flesh…despite the statement from Jesus in John.

  39. Michael says:


    I confess I find the concept fascinating…
    “The boundary between heaven and earth is very thin in Ortholandia.”

    One of the very good teachings of N.T. Wright is that it is very thin, period.

  40. Alex says:

    Not at all consistent or logical…but whatever LOL. I’ll just hope for the best 🙂

  41. You’re taking a very small snippet from one verse and trying to build a doctrine around it. It doesn’t work.

  42. Alex says:

    “You’re taking a very small snippet from one verse and trying to build a doctrine around it. It doesn’t work.”

    Many doctrines are built on less…show me the verse that says “Trinity”

    Also there are other verses that speak similar, but I don’t care to debate it, just trying to figure out the deal with Flesh and Spirit and as with most issues, there’s nothing there for a critical thinker to hang his hat on…just have to kind of hold my nose and hope for the best.

  43. Michael,
    In older designed confessional Lutheran churches, the altar is against the wall – symbolizing that on the other side, every time communion is served, the Church Triumphant is communing right along with us.

    Modern American Protestants run from this as can be seen when there is not even the observation of All Saints Day.

  44. “Many doctrines are built on less…show me the verse that says “Trinity”

    That’s my point, I can’t show you one such verse, but would have to take you through the entire bible.

    AS far as flesh and spirit, simple answer for me: I don’t know. It would appear that the spirit is eternal and that the flesh is temporal, so that at least in a human timeline, the spirit comes first and is then given a body? Yeah, don’t know.

  45. The flesh and the spirit are created together at conception.
    So, the flesh is temporal – kinda, but we do end up with the same bodies.
    The spirit is not eternal but is everlasting.

  46. Michael says:


    As I told Xenia, the whole concept is fascinating to me.
    I’ve never thought it made much sense to pray to saints because I can go straight to the Boss…but there is something efficacious about having others pray as well.

  47. “The spirit is not eternal but is everlasting.”

    What then do we make of Jeremiah 1:5 or Ephesians 1:4 ?

    …knew me before the womb…chosen before the foundations of the world…

  48. Josh – God knows all and is not bound in time. Surely you don’t think at one time … before time, their were 10 billion souls sitting around do you?

    We see no indication of pre existence and we never see God dropping a soul into a person at conception.

    God place his spirit in Adam – we are all in the image of Adam – a complete Body & Soul entity.

  49. “before time, their were 10 billion souls sitting around do you?”

    I don’t know. Maybe a soul doesn’t sit. Maybe a soul isn’t individual in the same way a body is. I couldn’t tell you for sure. Like you said, :God knows all”, and I am perfectly comfortable with that.

  50. Babylon's Dread says:

    Super apostles clip 1.

    “If you submit to their leadership, then you too will work mighty miracles. You’ll become part of a great end-time army that will bring about a world revival and cleanse the earth of evil by calling down hailstones, fire, and the other judgments of God described in the New Testament book of Revelation. If you do not submit to their leadership then, at the very least, you will miss out on God’s end -time plans. And if you actively oppose the apostles and prophets, then brace yourself for the fallout. Others must be warned that you are the pawn of a powerful demon, known as the “spirit of religion.””

    Geivett, R. Douglas; Pivec, Holly (2014-12-01). God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement (Kindle Locations 179-184). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

    Never heard this bullshit in my life. This is an amalgamation of caricatures. The book claimed careful research and diligent desire for truth and started wit this drivel. I don’t teach it believe ascribe to it allow it in my church or advocate it nor do any of the teachers I move with promote this nonsense. It sound very much like more like pretrib fearmongering than what I teach or heart taught

  51. Babylon's Dread says:

    This is nothing less than Hanegraaff reincarnated.

    Find an umbrella name NAR … broad brush the oddest pieces of it you can … smear it generously on all … save the world.

    I am going to read the rest of this and vomit on you here.
    “The authority claimed by NAR apostles is greater even than the authority of Roman Catholic bishops, who exercise their governing authority in submission to the ultimate authority of the pope.”

    Geivett, R. Douglas; Pivec, Holly (2014-12-01). God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement (Kindle Locations 284-285). Weaver Book
    Company. Kindle Edition.

    “Anyone who does not submit to the authority of an apostle is at risk. This is because an apostle’s authority comes directly from God. So the failure to recognize a true apostle is a serious matter. Wagner writes: “On that point let me make a strong statement: To the degree that the Corinthian believers did not recognize that the Lord had made Paul an apostle, they were out of the will of God! That would have been a dangerous place to be!” 14 The same goes for failure to recognize the apostles today.”

    Geivett, R. Douglas; Pivec, Holly (2014-12-01). God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement (Kindle Locations 320-326). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

    There is not even a vestige of this kind of heavy-handed nonsense among the people I move in relationship with. Not a hint.

    The writers of this book manipulators of evidence and liars within the first few pages.

  52. Is that book about the people you move in relationship with? C Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner…I know you like Bill Johnson. I don’t even know that he is one of them. Is it possible that you are talking about two different groups of people?

  53. Xenia says:

    MLD said:

    >>>In older designed confessional Lutheran churches, the altar is against the wall – symbolizing that on the other side, every time communion is served, the Church Triumphant is communing right along with us.<<<

    In an EO church, the altar is not flush with the east wall (so it can be walked around), but the idea is the same. All the Church is worshiping together, as in heaven as on earth.

  54. Babylon's Dread says:

    The book does touch a crucial question but it refuses to deal with the issue as it has been actually laid out by leaders of the NAR… which by the way is a name hatched by Peter Wagner based on his observations not a group of any formal standing.

    Most people I know who get called apostles
    1. eschew the name… some do not and claim it
    2. actually do kingdom work of church planting and kingdom expansion
    3. place scripture as primary authority by which all thing are measured.
    4. are far less under so-called apostolic authority than creedal reformation churches who canonized their 500 year old apostles via creeds and the Protestant canon.

  55. Babylon's Dread says:


    It is not…

    What is possible is that the stew into which the book has cast many names is far less homogenous than the idiot writers want to allow.

    I can parse the tribal relational aspects of that book far clearer than the authors whose intent is to smear not to discover truth.

  56. Babylon's Dread says:


    Let me be clearer… It is the book that is guilty of mishmashing people and names.

    Mostly they have in common that they believe the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased nor has the apostolic ministry … that they ascribe to the idea of apostolic submission on the level claimed in the beginning of the book is absolutely FALSE There is far more submission demanded in the Southern Baptist Convention than in the networks of churches that I belong to.

    I am about as provoked as I can be … but I will calm myself and recognize that this stuff is just Protestantism flexing for its turf to be sacrosanct in the same way as Rome did.

  57. Michael says:


    If I’m reading you right you’re placing your movement outside of Protestantism…is that correct?

  58. Michael says:


    How did you choose your namesake saint?

  59. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am far more radical than Protestantism … even many Baptists do not consider themselves Protestant. The Protestants provided an avenue for our ongoing protest.

    I am not a protestant when it comes to: creedalism, church government, cessationism, and many of their deeply held doctrines. But I thank them for providing a way out of Rome.

  60. Babylon's Dread says:


    I downloaded both books… but the carelessness of the first chapter makes the second book screed. It is clearly one thing only… it is a counter-NAR to rescue the leaking masses of young people who have found their churches dead, irrelevant and legalistic.

    The claims that book makes are not without foundation they are just simply restated without sincere interest in truth.

    The problem is that you cannot do diligence to facts when you attempt to broad brush… it always comes out as witch hunting.

  61. Xenia says:

    Michael, most Orthodox Christians are given their Saint’s name at birth and often parents choose a Saint whose commemoration day is on or close to the day of the child’s birth. In the case of converts, an attempt is made to find a Saint with the same name as the convert’s secular name. My secular name is Diane and we searched the books but could find no Saint Diane and besides, Diane is the name of a pagan goddess. I liked the story of St. Xenia of Petersburg and her day is close (sort of) to my own birthday so when I was received into the Church 13 years ago I was given the name “Xenia,” which I have kept and enjoyed ever since.

    In Orthodox culture, one’s name day is considered more important than one’s birthday (although sometimes they are the same day.) In church people are honored on their name day and a special song (“God grant you many years!”) is sung and the honorees receive a special blessing. It is all quite lovely.

  62. Michael says:


    Very fascinating to me…I need to figure out who my saint is… 🙂

  63. Xenia says:

    If you watch the Olympics, especially ice skating and gymnastics, you see the name Oxana a lot. That’s Ukrainian for Xenia.

  64. Michael says:


    If I didn’t love and respect you, I would be running such screeds daily as I see such nonsense that I simply can’t fathom it’s depths.

    What am I missing?

  65. Xenia says:

    Once I was babysitting a very cranky little baby who would not stop crying and I prayed “Dear Xenia, please help this poor baby!” and immediately he fell into a long, peaceful sleep.


  66. london says:

    Ummmm…your name is Michael…does that give you a hint as to who your saint might be? 😉

  67. london says:

    well, I guess technically he’s an angel, so that won’t work for you :mrgreen:

    sorry….couldn’t resist.

  68. Babylon's Dread says:


    Run whatever your conscience dictates. If I am offended I will howl and defend. You know very well that I find persons within the so-called NAR to be vile self-aggrandizing dogs. Expose them all you want.

    This is no different than the fact that within the Protestant movement was so much diversity that it was wrong to call them ONE thing… You could not even put Luther and Zwingli together …

    Even the Protestants would not call the radicals part of their number… so it is within the NAR… the battles over the nature of grace and sanctification among us are very intense, The reality that Spiritual warfare concerns divide us … I can go on and on

    MY protest is that this book fails to capture the necessity of dealing with the NAR in a more layered and nuanced way.

    I was aware a few years ago of an attempted worldwide network of apostolic governance among the apostolic movement… it was sensationalistic and never got off the ground.
    The inner turmoil was vast and suppressed the whole thing…

  69. Michael says:


    If there’s only one guy in charge of the Michaels he’s a busy dude… 🙂

    I need one close to my day…July 8th…

  70. Michael says:


    It’s easy to throw rocks at people when we don’t know them.
    I know you and that tempers my ire while raising my curiosity…

  71. Michael says:

    I want the patron saint of the lottery… 🙂

  72. Michael says:

    I’m off to pick up T.

    This has been a provocative and informative thread…thank you all.

  73. Babs,
    “it is a counter-NAR to rescue the leaking masses of young people who have found their churches dead, irrelevant and legalistic. ”

    This must be something of “in the eye of the beholder” – Confessional Lutheranism is having a tremendous influx coming from those running away from the “experiential” churches. People are tired of keeping up with the latest ‘new experience’ and the one upmanship that goes on to prove which church is less dead – more relevant – and more avante guard when it comes to freedom.

  74. Xenia says:

    From the Orthodox Calendar for July 8th:

    Greatmartyr Procopius of Caesarea, in Palestine
    Righteous Procopius the Fool-For-Christ and Wonderworker of Ustiug, Vologda
    Martyr Epictetus the Presbyter at Halmyri
    Monkmartyr Astion at Halmyris
    Venerable Theophilus the Myrrhgusher of Macedonia
    Royal Martyr Mirdat, King of Kartli

  75. Xenia says:

    As for Michaels apart from the Archangel Michael:

    Michael I of Kiev (metropolitan)
    Michael of Chernigov
    Michael of Synnada

  76. This comment thread reminded me about how my wife and I attempted to adopt a Russian baby named Xenia. Fell through tho…

  77. How about Michael Rowed the Boat A Shore?

  78. Steve Wright says:

    Update…Breaking News


    Day 15 (of 21) of prayer and fasting:

    I am meeting with President Obama tomorrow!!! God is a God of miracles! We prayed and fasted for 2 weeks and President Obama comes to Boise. We pray and pray and he is meeting with me tomorrow. It is amazing seeing God move as we pray! Seeing so many breakthroughs already and we still have 6 more days to go!

    Praise God!

    Thank you all who have prayed and fasted with me! Love you all!!!


  79. Alex says:

    Great news about the meeting with Obama, maybe he’ll do something.

  80. Linnea says:

    Praying for Naghmeh… That the President would hear God’s heart through her and have pity on Saaed. With the turmoil reported in Israel, Syria, hand Iran today, the good result of this meeting is crucial.

  81. Babylon's Dread says:

    I posted my larger PROTEST on Challies’ review

    This book cites 100 times “NAR leaders” and then makes an assertion…. IMAGINE saying “Protestants” baptize by immersion, “Protestants” believe in the real presence in the communion, “Protestants” deny the authority of the creeds, “Protestants believe in sola scriptura,” Protestants believe in elected eldership, Protestants blah blah blah… those characterizations are fallacious if universalized. When I read this book these universalized claims are inaccurate. What kind of “prophets” makes such false assertions. These authors are false prophets… SEE HOW RIDICULOUS this is? This book is simply meant to capture people who cannot out reason the nitwits who write and cite a single author or two then claim that “NAR leader” teach… How can anyone endorse careless scholarship like this that seeks to discredit people?

    Go back to the original when C. Peter Wagner wrote the New Apostolic Churches he cited Bill Hybels FIRST as the example… about the same time he wrote Churchquake and actually characterized what the NAR churches are like. This book does its own caricatured picture of what it wants people to reject. This kind of careless scholarship, is extremely offensive when aimed at discrediting people in conglomerated groups. Protestants would not allow the same reasoning … they would yell RED HERRING to the skies… So do i

  82. Babylon's Dread says:

    “NAR leaders” is just warmed over “Counterfeit Revivalist” claims of Hank Hanegraaff

    Make up a name that you have disparaged by generalizing… paste it to your opponents nilly willy and win your straw man arguments.

    God’s Super-Apostles is toilet paper… roll it and smoke it… redeem it somehow… but don’t pass it off on me as respectable scholarship.

  83. Steve Wright says:

    Dread’s review sounds like me when I read ‘The Charismatics’ by MacArthur as part of my Masters Thesis.

    (or more than one day around here when CC is being discussed… 😉 )

  84. Alex says:

    Obama traded 5 Gitmo terrorists for another Boise dude, Bo Bergdahl…maybe he can get Iran to trade for Joe Biden, Eric Holder and a politician to be named later.

  85. Alex says:

    Michael said, “I want the patron saint of the lottery…”


    I think that would be Saint Tan 🙂

    (read it fast 😉 )

  86. E says:

    I for one believe in modern apostles and prophets. But the problem is if someone thinks he can prophecy he thinks himself a prophet. Or if one goes on the mission field then one becomes an apostle. I just dont hold to such easy requirements As Christians we still orient ourselves into idolatry of titles so easily. This certainly isn’t the forum to talk about this topic as most of the visitors here are probably think the idea of modern apostles is baloney. And I tend to agree, but there are a few people I can think of that if there are modern apostles, they would qualify in that sense. But Wagner imo is not an apostle, as a matter of fact, I personally wouldn’t give more than the position of teacher. It seems the people I know to be prophets or apostles never refer to themselves when they are ministering as such. They just don’t….but it seems the guys who want to climb the ladder and go on the charismatic circuit tour, love the title and position of such titles. Yet when I see them in person or whatever. I just don’t see anything living up to the hype during the meeting, and ive been to a few 😉

  87. Q says:

    “I want the patron saint of the lottery…”

    What emergent doesn’t?

  88. EricL says:

    Dred, thank you for taking the time to reply both here and over at the link. I’m not part of NAR but as a non-cessationist I tire of these tirades. Many don’t want to hear your logic, but thank you for trying to reason with them.

  89. Captain Xtian says:

    So are there two Steve Wrights?

    Somewhat confused here.

    One is from Boise and another is pastor of a CC in Lake Elsinor CA.

    Or are both one and the same?

  90. Steve Wright says:

    @91….there are a ton of Steve Wrights…even Pastor Steve Wrights are pretty common…if you just search the web.

    I don’t understand the question. Unless maybe you did not recognize I was simply pasting Naghmeh’s post and not speaking of myself as meeting with Obama in Boise

  91. Michael says:

    Steve is in Lake Elsinore.

    He posted a note from Mrs. Abedini about meeting the President in Boise.

  92. Steve Wright says:

    I drove through part of Idaho once when I visited friends in Montana and had to fly through Salt Lake City and rent a car…. 🙂

  93. Linda Pappas says:

    Or just maybe, that God the Father, has through the Holy Spirit sat it upon President Obama’s heart to visit Boise, Idaho, so that he would meet with Naghmeh.

    How many here have thought they were going to a place for one purpose when in fact God has sent you there for another purpose, if only to support one seemingly insignificant soul never figured in the mix of what appear to be the reason you had gone there in the first place.

    The point is God is sovereign and He can move a mountain when He is ready. To bring President Obama into a state that many will throw metaphorical rocks at him, is in my mind is like sending Paul to Rome, where the political system was quite contrary to that of what Paul went there to give witness to regarding the gospel. This comparison is not that of comparing Paul’s conversion to President Obama, so please don’t get side-tracked. It is about all the thing people will say about Obama’s character and purpose for going there. Yet, behind the scene, looking from how God works, we may be adding fuel to the fire to undo what God would like to do through Obama and others as a result of what God have or will set upon his heart to do.

    I also have and will continue to pray for this time for President Obama’s visit to Idaho–for his safety, for the people of Idaho, for the softening of hardened hearts on each side of the political fences and most of all for a strong unswerving conviction within the heart of President Obama to be relentless in his mindset to secure Saeed’s freedom and to bring him safely home to his wife, children and community.

    MLD Agree with your 46 and 49 comments.

  94. filbertz says:

    the news of the meeting with the President is indeed a positive development. Regardless of folks’ opinions of the man, he is the elected leader of a world-leading power and wields significant authority. There has been plenty of disrespect shown him recently on this site, and for that I am saddened…both that it was stated, but further that it was not only unchecked, but applauded by some. The disrespectful conjectures are simply rumor-mongering at their worst and not fitting for those of us who claim to honor God and his ways. From my limited perspective, we can and must do better than that.

  95. David says:

    Here’s my ‘late to the party’ contribution, Re: Colby’s #11: I think the idea behind those in heaven praying for or cheering us on comes from a faulty understanding of eternity. I think that once we die, we leave the physical constraint of time and enter eternity; a place where there is no past or future, just the “Always Now” of a timeless state. I think it is very possible that everyone, past, present and future will ‘appear’ at the same time to the Throne room.
    It’s a little difficult to unpack in a little blurb, and as tired as I am from two straight 12 work days, I’m not even sure I’m making sense to myself.

  96. Q says:


    Islam if taken seriously is a religion you are forced into by the sword (death) and forced to stay in by the sword (death).

    Most of these people had no choice, they were born into it and take it about as seriously as most Christians do or were forced into it and forced to stay (literally) and do not know other choices.

    As the most powerful man on the planet Obama should say let him go.

  97. brian says:

    I felt deeply for Dr. Caner I hope he can find peace and his family healing.

  98. Bob says:

    I put this in wrong thread so I moved it, sorry.


    The whole idea of dead (OK they are alive in heaven) saints being able to hear, observe, and act on behalf of those still on good old Terra Firma is just plain pagan.

    Additionally Jewish tradition, the root of the Christian faith, would never have a person praying to a dead patriarch or “saint.” They do affirm the possibility of guardian angels and the ability of some live saints (men and women) do have an extraordinary ability to be heard by God and therefore use this to pray for others needs. They do not affirm praying to any angel, person or thing in the heavens other than God. It is God alone who hears and answers prays.

    “But it is otherwise with God. God says, “When a man is in trouble, do not cry out to the angel Michael or to the angel Gabriel but to Me and I will answer immediately” (TJ, Ber. 9:1, 13a). ” R. Judah

    Now consider Jesus’ story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, could either man act on behalf of the living? No. Of course the point of this teaching isn’t to define life off the earth, but it gives us a hint as to Jesus and First Century thinking.

    Now will God use others to answer prayers? That is another subject.

  99. Don’t necessarily agree with the president on a lot of issues and I often question his motives but Amen on the respect thing in Filbertz’ # 96. Man judges by appearances. That’s the best we can do. Only God knows the true motivations of an individual. Indeed we Christians who are to take the low road and love those who don’t deserve it, harm us, and hate us can do ” better than that”.

    Praying/ hoping for a good out come in the meeting with Naghmeh and the president.

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