Part 2 of the Houston Chronicle expose of sexual abuse in the SBC…
Should religious belief inform public policy?
Making the liturgy sing a new song…
Reflections on the SBC abuse stories…
Seven ways ordinary people can help stop human trafficking…
Response from SBC Voices to the scandals…
Four church models that are thriving…
Is there Good News for disabled people?
Choosing bi-vocational ministry…
Convicted of taking water to thirsty people…
Revelation is the scariest book in the Bible…
The Word that changed everything…
The patron saint of bees and beekeeping…
A most mischievous and ill informed half truth…
Why Jordan Peterson is more popular than most churches…
You don’t need to go to church to be a Christian and other fairy tales…
Lutheran church wins right to serve the homeless in St. Paul…
Kurt Stauble on Peter-John Courson…
Five reasons to read biographies…
Pastors feel political pressures from the pews…
Huge thanks to EricL for the link help…support him at top right…
Good tribute to Costco Cal, dude suffered a lot. Life is a problem and a gift. He did well with what he was given.
His dad is a soldier too, at least in his public persona.
Jordan Peterson? I’ve listened to many many hours of lectures debates and his books. I am a big advocate. That article was a clickbait title but a decent write up. I’ll take friends where I can find them.
I’ve listened to Jordan Peterson a lot. While I enjoy his line of reasoning and style of his arguments, he is saying nothing that the Bible hasn’t already said, in many instances it’s -almost – just mosaic plagiarism. He did remind me that even a Jungian psychoanalyst has a lot to teach us on the natural plane.
About living wisely, that is, and about the nature of truth.
I find Jordan Peterson to be a cross between a hilltop guru and a fortune cookie. Put him in a Nehru jacket and send him back 50 years and the Beatles would be chasing after him.
Regarding the part 2 link about the SBC…
Due to my ignorance of the SBC and its culture, as I’m reading these “part” installments and I can’t help but wonder about the nonsense leaders and their lemmings (those who really don’t care about the abused) spouted during these many years.
I’m unfortunately intimately aware (and previously taught) how to attack using CC propaganda (Moses Model, “touch-not,” etc.), but don’t know if the semantics applies to SBC fiefdoms.
Then I had a thought. Jesus warned about those who would stumble “these little ones” then gave the metaphor of the millstone.
Setting aside Jesus was not under the Mosel Model (and being God means you can judge whenever you want to), I always took His teaching on stumbling to be toward those whom actually did the stumbling.
However, if we take Jesus’ warning to its logical conclusion, I bet the judgement ultimately applies to the accomplice(s) as well.
In other words, as the Houston Chronicle is so thoroughly pointing out, it’s not just the person/pedophile, but a culture responsible for all this evil.
So, people who stay and keep an evil system propped-up, let’s say for employment, emotional needs, etc., aren’t they about to be fitted for a millstone?
Oh and by the way, didn’t Greg Laurie giddily and very publicly create an alliance with this org?
So, CCs run screaming from a single person “caught in Calvinism,” but an entire system caught practicing the worst kinds of evil for decades is acceptable?
“…but an entire system caught practicing the worst kinds of evil for decades is acceptable?”
Exhibit A- condemn an entire group
1- Abuse is evil
2- Some ______(name the group) abuse
3- All ________ are evil
No phobia name for this groupthink?
So what is the goal of these expose pieces?
Southern Baptist people apparently deserve whatever happens to them
Having spent 5 years affiliated with the So. Baptists – long years ago – back then the churches held their individual autonomy near and dear. We were warned that some held closed communion services…. Therefore, i have to ask, would the denomination be expected to police the churches?
In light of peoples’ tendency to broad brush, maybe it isn’t good to have independent churches under one banner? Dunno
I don’t believe you are being fair with my statement, so instead of employing the same extremism (legalese, numbered-bullets, etc.) and “phobias,” please notice I use the word “system,” as in a set of processes/rules, NOT humans, NOT what Jesus died for.
I would never “condemn” the church, the real church, that is souls Jesus died for. Also, I really hope with the (now proven) knowledge little girls are probably being abused somewhere right now, that isn’t your first focus. I assure you, it’s God’s.
Jesus didn’t die for any SYSTEM.
However, I will NEVER (again) waste a second trusting in or defending systems.
Again, notice I didn’t mention a single “Baptist” (whatever that is-I doubt God cares about all our made-up labels). I’ve only known a few who attended Baptist churches, though even if one was found to be a pedophile, I’d never assume the others were. If I found (again) a man-made system which was used in the abuse and subsequent cover-up, I’d expose that in a second.
You quoted me, then stated “condemn an entire group.”
I never did such a thing nor said anything about people.
If you had asked what I meant by “system” (clearly my target), I would’ve happily clarified as I did above.
You accused me online of something I did not do.
You lied about me.
Since you didn’t ask for or allow for clarification, I will do so.
PEOPLE: It’s obvious the thousands of people who have a attended SBCs didn’t intend for this to happen. Also I like to believe the abusers didn’t begin their walk and training with the intent to abuse. By the way, I’ve never attended a Baptist church – does this sound like someone desiring to “condemn an entire group?”
CREED/BELIEVES: I believe it’s safe to assume no written document anywhere in the SBC community states the intent to abuse, so I’m comfortable stating that wasn’t the vehicle used in the abuse.
RESOURCES: Obviously having any kind of religious services in buildings with equipment, etc., doesn’t lead to child abuse.
What (if any) is an underlying aspect that might link ALL THE MANY ONGOING stories of abuse which continue to get reported about Christendom?
That is what I’m left with. Yes, the cop-out way is “it’s sin,” but with all of God’s examples (OT), Jesus and the Apostles’ examples (NT) of calling out stuff and offering ways to prevent it in the future, I’m pretty sure God doesn’t care more about protecting images/labels/registered trademarks/copyrights, etc. – all that Jesus DID NOT die for.
Sorry, above I meant
“I would never “condemn” the church, the real church, that is souls Jesus died for. Also, I really hope with the (now proven) knowledge little girls are probably being abused somewhere right now, that STOPPING CHILD ABUSE is your first focus. I assure you, it’s God’s.”
I find YOUR comment about JP to be nose-spraying!
OMG! THAT made me laugh SO HARD, had I been drinking anything, it would’ve shot out my nostrils!
I kinda disagree with you a little, but I’m not exactly sure how yet, and I can’t stop laughing anyway.
RE the choosing bi-vocational. Some very good insights there. I’m in the early stages of planting a church and my goal is to never get paid by the church, at least never rely on income from the church to survive. My experience has been that pastors lead such insular lives that they really don’t understand the time and energy demands on people, even the self-imposed ones. Looking back to when I was full time, I know I certainly didn’t.
Your decision is wise beyond most peoples’ years (I would’ve written your years, but unfortunately you learned the hard way).
I was discussing with a friend of mine the Moses Model and the two (IMO) primary problems with it – ultimate authority (you can’t be fired) and sole income.
He took the usual stance about the problems from the “sheep” standpoint and countered, “you misunderstand! When are going to wakeup how cruel that is to any man-the pastor!”
Placing such a burden, then unaccountable power on any single person is just freekin’ cruel. Most men will commit suicide (unfortunately literally sometimes) before quitting.
Anyway, I’m listening to two podcasts (Stephen Crosby – Bros in a Basement and Wayne Jacobsen-The God Journey), both from mens (and guests) with decades of full-time bond–, oops, ministry experience.
It’s ironic to a former CCSP-position luster, as I listen to how they’ve decided to serve differently (much like yours), it protects their marriages, health, mental well being, etc.
In other words, I’ve never wanted to serve God more, with more joy and peace, yet with so little power and $.
I reread your statements and my conclusion as to what you said. I’ll stand by it. If I lied anyone who reads can judge. Your explanation about a system was a nice attempt. But this is what you wrote.
“So, PEOPLE who stay and keep an evil system propped-up, let’s say for employment, emotional needs, etc., aren’t they about to be fitted for a millstone?” You assess this based on a newspaper article.
I spent 25 years with the people who live inside that ‘system’ which is frankly a company of the finest people I have ever known in my life. People are going to stay in what you call ‘that system’ for all kinds of reasons. You suggest they are thereby guilty.
You are not fit to carry the millstone were they suited to wear it.
Stop condemning in careless ways. You explanation fails when you are talking to one who walked with them. Southern Baptist do not in any way desire or undergird these heinous acts of abuse. Your condemnation is not eased by your justification.
I reject what you say outright. Now you can have the last word if you want it. I shall not reply again to this.
And by the way, my wife is no longer terrified of me “serving.”
I’m a pure volunteer (can’t be fired, $ taken, etc.).
I have no control over anyone (not constantly frustrated, misdirecting anger at her, others) because I trust Jesus to lead others.
I was bi-vocational for years.
Either the ministry suffers or the job performance does…there’s only so much time and energy in a day.
Add that to the fact that people should want an educated clergy…books and schooling are not cheap.
Most pastors in this country do not make big bucks…most I know live from meager paycheck to paycheck…and still people think that’s too much.
It’s a crock if you ask me…
Ok. Well, I’ve lost respect for you.
You’re changing what you originally wrote and I’m not accepting that cheap tactic.
If you want to start-over that’s fine, but be man enough to at least admit what you did, which you already stated you woudln’t (your pout – “I shall not reply again”).
At least I didn’t quote you, make an indictment on that quote, THEN change my mind on why you’re guilty. Is this your hobby? Just keeping going to get an indictment?
And your impersonation of a prophet don’t work on me either, just Christianeeze gibberish.
And AGAIN, you say nothing of the poor raped little girls, as THAT was/is my primary focus.
Good GOD! How thankful I am in times like these so much went “wrong” when I was striving for system approval. I can’t believe how easy it is for you keep stepping over child abuse to appear the defender of useless concepts and words at the expense of the innocent.
I am more than willing to come to an agreement or make peace, but I have to first see admit what is so clear to anyone who can read what YOU first wrote.
Also, why the kangaroo court statements (EXHIBIT __). Is that how you really talk to a brother? I’ve bad news. You’re going to be stuck with me for all eternity.
Do you EVER ask for clarification? Do you always assume war crimes?
It’s always the ones who don’t believe that the worker is worthy of his wage that call your ass during dinner every time they have a hangnail and complain continually about…everything.
Pastors have families and all of them enjoy eating and having shelter…
Being bi-vocational is sometimes a necessity, but should never be the standard.
Couldn’t agree more.
This is ONE reason why believe SO many free resources are now online.
I THINK God has seen this problem and led so many to use their gifts to avoid so many enslaved servants.
By the way, I’m out.
Have a nice day.
Agreeing with Pastor Dread @ 9:48… The years we spent among the So. Baptists were a blessing – so many folk who took God seriously and lived with integrity… Like any group of church-going mortals there were a few “tares,” but i can say they were treated with grace by the congregation WITHOUT compromising … Had there been any abuse, by pew sitter or pastor, the hammer would have come down hard