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28 Responses

  1. j2theperson says:

    Desiring God so often comes off as a weird and out-of-touch organization. I am curious what they think of the prophetess Deborah.

    Personally, the whole idea of complementarianism has become more and more foreign to me the older I have gotten. Particularly now that I’m in a family situation where I need to be the primary earner because of my husband’s health issues, complementarianism is just totally irrelevant to me. I wonder how many women those who hold to that view will be able to reach and connect with as more and more women become the main earners and the heads of their households.

  2. j2theperson says:

    The article asking if Jesus being sexually abused was very thought provoking.

  3. Em says:

    I think it is appropriate, if we wish to portray Christ on the cross, to conceal the man’s private parts – just as we’d wish for our own son… That said, the article J2 references is a good reminder that God did submit as a man to whatever the human race in its depraved state chose to inflict on him that day…

  4. Duane Arnold says:

    By the way, there is no evidence in either the French or English records that Joan of Arc was raped… just saying…

  5. The Jesus being raped article was disgusting and unnecessary (I’m not disagreeing with it being posted). I’ve never not thought that He might not have been naked and shamed, but c’mon. The unoriginal Dan Brown seems less sacrilegious in advancing his own anti-RCC/Christianity agenda.

  6. Michael says:

    I debated whether to post the article.
    I think it’s worth examining the history of Roman crucifixion practices to find out if abuse was normative.
    I wish she had cited sources.

  7. Steve says:

    j2theperson, I have never viewed complementarianism as the man being the main bread winner in the household. I can certainly see how that can be an assumption but not sure if that is accurate portrayal of those that hold the view. I could be wrong. I view myself as complementarian, but both myself and my wife are perfectly content with her as the primary bread winner.

  8. j2theperson says:

    I’d be curious to see how men vs women view complementarianism. I have heard pastors preach that the man should be the breadwinner and the woman should care for the home.

    I can say for myself that my relationship with my husband is positive because I am an egalitarian. If I were a complemantarian, I would be very bitter over the many ways in which he is “failing” under that worldview. I would be butter that he’s not out there working and I don’t get to be a stay at home mom. But because I don’t view men and women as inherently needing to fill specific roles it’s not problematic to me that our household is not traditional. Because I’m am egalitarian, I can value him as an individual and the skills and abilities he brings to the table on their own merits, without the baggage tied to what a husband and father “should” be and do. His responsibility to our family is basically the same as mine–that we both be faithful and committed to each other, try to be decent parents to our kids, and that we try to be supportive and understanding of each other. He doesn’t inherently get the final say in anything because he’s the man any more than I do. We try to work things out equitably.

    It’s way less stressful than being complemantarian and him feeling like he always has to lead and me feeling like I always need to follow and support.

  9. j2theperson says:

    It would be interesting to know what was normative in Roman crucifixions. It seems reasonable to me that some people would label what we know happened during his crucifixion as sexual assault. I don’t think I buy the idea that Jesus was likely to have been outright raped during that (though I could see why sexual assault and rape victims would take comfort in that). The bible is totally silent on such a thing happening, and it seems like if it did there would be some kind of reference to it–if only a very oblique reference.

    Also, it seems problematic to start essentially making up scripture–even if the aim is to give strength and comfort to very wounded people. If you need Jesus to have been raped in order to believe that he understands you then that ends up leaving millions of people not understood by Jesus because he isn’t like them and didn’t have their experiences. For example, could Jesus ever really understand women given that he was not a woman?

  10. Donner says:


  11. Em says:

    Jesus may have been the only man who ever did understand women (He invented them. ?)

    That said, genders are not cookie cutter repeats, i don’t think

  12. Wise comment j2theperson.

    As for Complimentarianism, I was raised as the only adopted son of a 60s-70s feminist. She used to get grief for driving a ’72 F-250 truck.

    I thought I was good with women, and many (both my age and much older) told me that over the years.

    Then I found the mother of our children, a Mexican immigrant who came here when she was 11. I was expected to split the internal duties for the home and childcare. No problem… but it was never good enough. And I did all outside work, no credit. I arose early on weekends to take care of the babies, no problem, though I did grow to resent that after a few months…. And I wasn’t a handyman like a “Mexican Man” an entity whom she told me early on she wouldn’t date or marry. So it was a no-win situation, even if I changed diapers plenty.

    I guess my Pollyannish view is that people could not only work together, but also toss rue chips off their shoulders, and stop trying to control others.

    I suppose my fantasy of equity is just that these days.

  13. Nathan Priddis says:

    Jesus crucifixion thing..
    I think there is an occasional need by some to be sensationalist. I think an obsession with the macabre, is an obsession with the macabre. It’s weird, but its informative to be reminded of it occasionally.

    As far as actual torture and mistreatment is concerned, its standard human behavior in authoritarian regimes, and in warfare. Evangelical attitudes that produce positions like the Land Letter, I am convinced are not of God. A Just War, is just a war.

  14. Nathan Priddis says:

    On Complimentarianism..
    Why do we think this is only a here an now issue? When I die, I expect to be me in the afterlife. I don’t expect to wake up as Susan, or Tim.

    I expect a Complementarian to be resurrected as such. One may or may not change their views on life after resurrection, but you are you.

    The point of Comp, is women Compliment the opposite sex. Women find identity in relation to men. What happens when women in Heaven go about life in their own identity, sans men?

    We are going to assume that Complimentarians will not pick up the same social struggles that existed on Earth?

  15. j2theperson says:

    ***I guess my Pollyannish view is that people could not only work together, but also toss rue chips off their shoulders, and stop trying to control others.***

    I agree that’s pretty much what people need to have positive functional relationships. Just try to work together and not keep score.

  16. Dan from Georgia says:

    I’m sure “Desiring God” ministries is perfectly fine with Tucker Carlson, but damned if we ever let a mythical woman be the hero!

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I laugh – watch – LOL. My wife and I have been together over 50 years and had never before heard the terms complimentarian and / or egalitarian. Not once have we had a discussion along these lines.
    Are people so confused by life (or so bored) that they make this stuff up to claim a higher meaning?
    No wonder people today look down in their pants and can’t figure out if they are a boy or a girl.

  18. I think for most complementarians, it doesn’t go any further than saying women can’t be senior pastors. I think any other ecclesial or social distinctions are gone. For MOST.

  19. j2theperson says:

    ***I think for most complementarians, it doesn’t go any further than saying women can’t be senior pastors. I think any other ecclesial or social distinctions are gone. For MOST.***

    I thought the whole point of complementarianism was that men and women reflect different aspects of God in distinctly different ways due to their distinct gender differences. If complementarianism is now, as you say, reduced to only saying “women can’t be senior pastors”, and there are no other ecclesial or social distinctions then it’s hard to see how it can survive as a viable worldview. If women are increasingly carrying out the same tasks and duties as men in both the workplace and at home–and even within church outside of being senior pastors–and doing them competently and with a quality on par with that of men, then the obvious question that people (do as now and) will ask is, “Why can’t women be senior pastors? Does the Bible really forbid it? What’s the big deal?”

    There needs to be something of substance there beneath the rule forbidding women to be senior pastors or it will look bizarre and arbitrary and people will increasingly ignore it.

  20. directambiguity says:

    “Why can’t women be senior pastors?”

    The same reason men can’t. It’s not in the bible.

  21. j2 – I agree. And I’m sure there are some places where the complentarianism is carried further. It seems that Piper’s group is pretty strict on that. Practically though, what I’ve seen from most is the prohibition against senior pastor women. I think many feel that the scriptural evidence is weak, or cultural, but there is intense pressure from those who say it is the slippery slope to liberalism.

  22. DavidM says:

    Regarding the article on James MacDonald: A couple of things trouble me. Firstly, why does a pastor need a bodyguard? Are you kidding me? Some years back, I was at a CC Pastor’s Conference in Costa Mesa, and I approached a well-known CC pastor, though certainly not one of the “big names”. It was then that I noticed that he had a bodyguard with him, who tried to block me from talking to him. I ignored him and said a few things to the pastor. I remember thinking, why does he need a bodyguard at a pastor’s conference? (Yeah, I know, sounds like a setup for a punchline). I thought, who the hell does this guy think he is?
    Secondly, if the allegations about the lavish spending are true, then those who continued to prop up MacDonald are as guilty as he is. Did nobody see this as ludicrous? And, if he was being paid about half a million back in 2009, could he not afford to pay for his own safari? And if his trips were so “extremely stressful”, then just either learn to cope with stress or don’t go at all. I’m astounded at the utter disregard for any accountability. How many superstar pastors with little accountability have we ween destroy themselves and their ministries over the past decade?
    Tithes and contributions are a sacred trust, not a treasure chest for a bully pastor.

  23. Duane Arnold says:


    I wish you you could be more direct in your comments! ? Love your heart for the Gospel, my friend….

  24. j2theperson says:

    The article on the genocide during the French Revolution was interesting. I was taught about the French Revolution from an American perspective which viewed it very negatively. I had no idea that French people had such a positive view of it–to the point that French historians would dismiss and cover up genocide committed by French revolutionaries.

  25. Dan from Georgia says:

    Wasn’t sure where to post this since I don’t have the link, and it’s about Lent, so perhaps I should’ve posted in the Lent post…but anyways…

    There is a blog post out there, on Patheos I think, about giving up contempt for our fellow man for Lent.

  26. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Dan, the problem with the unseen Lent article is a woeful misunderstanding of Lent. This is not a time to correct societal injustices or environmental issues.
    Whatever the fast is, it is to be returned to when the season is over – when the Hallelujahs return to greet the risen Lord… unless he is suggesting taken up our contempt again.
    Lent is about preparing ourselves to walk with Jesus to death, not another weapon in our social justice quiver.

  27. Dan from Georgia says:

    Good point! Thanks for the clarification MLD.

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