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108 Responses

  1. RiBo says:

    “My point is more subtle: While all conservatives are not racists, most racists are conservatives. I consider this to be pretty indisputable.”

    I guess Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the Black Panthers etc are really closet conservatives then LOL.

    Weak stuff from Stellman. Very very subjective and definitional and political-centric.

  2. RiBo says:

    I would argue that “La Raza” (literally the “race”) and the very pervasive liberal bent toward singling out the different races and making them political entities arguing for their particular race vs. homogenization and integration as illustrated by the many many race groups in the Liberal Tent…is actually very racist and more pervasive.

  3. RiBo says:

    Stellman is pretty biased by his liberal glasses and isn’t taking an objective look at that issue.

  4. I agree with RB – don’t pass out. I think all people are racists. Some just hide it better.

    You guys can’t do it – but I can. Sit with a Jewish family (all 100% liberal) and listen to the racial stuff flow.

    People who try to put the burden on one group or another are just unfair and not really trying.

    Take a liberal Berkley professor when his kid gets bumped by racial quotas – now ther is a hoot.

  5. Jason, re your question and answers about what a “christian right” (whatever that is) would say – didn’t you write a book on the 2 kingdoms? If so did you jettison that when you made the move to the RCC?

  6. gomergirl says:

    Wow, the guy needs to purchase a dictionary, or use the free on-line version. I am so sick of bloggers (not disrespect to Michael) and writers and pendents throwing derogatory labels out there when the evidence is not there to support such claims. I do not know Rush Limbaugh (I refuse to listen to him because I do not agree with much of what he says) but I would not presume to label him a racist, because he was commenting on a perceived bias at an awards show. Hollywood is known for a certain political bias towards many issues, and recognizing that is not racism. And for the author to say that most racist are conservative is pretty ignorant in my view. He seems to conveniently ignore Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, the congressional Black caucus, and many other people and groups who have made numerous racist statements that go widely unreported or decried.

    There seems to be this prevailing thought in blogs and facebook and the media at large, that any ethnic group, except white Caucasians are incapable of being racist, And I find that the be as offensive as any racial slur.

    This is something that I feel very passionate about, sorry to rant, but it seems to have been a topic in several places I have been lately and It really gets me mad.

  7. gomergirl says:

    Should have been “pundants” Stupid auto correct

  8. erunner says:

    Sorry, but the article didn’t do a thing for me. Actually quite disappointed.

  9. synapses of fish says:

    I think Jason writes some interesting things, but personally I take him with a grain of salt, as he always seems to be reacting to something.

    I remember about 5-6 years ago when he was deep into the 2K stuff he spoke at our church camp up here in Canada, and my brother-in-law and I both told him that if he was in Canada he wouldn’t feel such a huge need to construct a worldview that dealt with the whole Republican-Christian-conflation aspect of living as Christian in America. He made some good points to think about, but was reacting more than anything else, and I think that’s what he’s still doing.

  10. What gg said.
    Also, every once in a while reading that blog reminds me of why I hardly read that blog. Most of the time I ignore links to it, because I realize it will be a slanted mess.
    Also finding myself agreeing with RB.
    Seems to me “Heavy for the Vintage” is mainly about provoking and being hip so he can look cool to all the otherhip guys.

  11. gomergirl says:

    Derek….lol. and I am liking the book. 🙂

  12. Kevin H says:

    Have to agree with most of the comments here so far in regards to Jason’s article. In reading some of his other stuff on his blog, I have found him to be thought provoking at times. But I think he swung and missed on this one. Jason’s writing sometimes gives the appearance of being more concerned with being hip and provoking than it is about giving an honest appraisal of the subject matter at hand.

    As for the Rapture Index, what a waste of time and energy, no matter what amount of time and energy it takes to keep that thing updated.

    And for Driscoll…. ugh. He seemed like a guy, who although rough around the edges, started out with some real promise. It seems as time has gone on, he has only become more and more enthralled with himself, to the good of nobody.

  13. Steve Wright says:

    Jason writing about conservatives and their beliefs is like me writing a critical article about hockey and its fans. I know hockey exists, I’m able to name a lot of teams and even am familiar with a few terms like icing, powerplays, and pulling the goalie.

    I was prepared to be upset at the article, but actually found myself laughing. Might as well get upset about a cartoon. That thing wouldn’t pass muster for the Huffington Post

  14. Jim says:

    Gomergirl’s comment over on the vintage blog is perfect. I agree with all of the comments above as well.

    You agree with this guy Michael?

  15. I think Michael just said it was provocative.

  16. Michael says:

    I don’t even agree with myself all the time. 🙂
    Jason’s arguments have some holes in them as has been pointed out.
    Where I agree with Jason completely is that the Christian right has a real problem evidencing anything that looks like compassion for the least of these in public discourse.
    That’s not to say that there are not many on that side of the aisle who are compassionate and giving people…it is saying that as a group that is not what is communicated.
    I will vote independent or Democratic for the rest of my life for that reason.
    After Obama, probably independent… 🙂

  17. david sloane says:

    In my own experience my far right conservative aquaintances tend to lean towards racism. Anyone who doesn’t play along in that group is usually odd man out.

    In actuality one does not have to be Republican to be Christian.

    Truth be told my surrounding cultural influence has infected me and I have to watch my attitudes. I recently started speaking with non English speaking neighbors in an attempt to bridge the gap in my experience.

    I got a haircut in a Mexican barber shop the other day. His only English was , “You go dancing?” Lol.

    Somehow we managed to dialog and I left with a great haircut and another enjoyable challenge to my own cultural racism.

    I did notice that when I reach outside of my ignorance I get rewarded with great interaction and better management of the racism issues that I have been influenced by in my life.

  18. “In actuality one does not have to be Republican to be Christian. ”

    I would say by far the majority of Christians in the good old USA are Democrats and usually those who tilt more left.

    I dare anyone to say otherwise.

  19. Michael says:


    I was racist as hell before I went to Mexico.
    There, I was changed forever by being with those I scorned.
    Good post…

  20. Everyone,

    I obviously don’t expect my sentiments to find much traction among a group of evangelical Christians, most of whom are probably more conservative than liberal (I get that you’re not my target audience, is what I’m saying). My point was that racism is a broader concept than simply hating some other race. If I see a black fireman or a black doctor and think to myself that he probably got hired over a white guy because of affirmative action, that’s a pretty messed up thought, in my opinion. It’s an assumption of inferiority. This was latent in Limbaugh’s statements.

    Which brought me to my broader observation (and it’s admittedly a broad statement, not a universally-applicable one): It is more likely for a person with subtly racist ideas to identify with conservatism than liberalism. Are there racists everywhere? Of course. Is this about Republicans versus Democrats? Not at all. My point is that there seems to be something built into the conservative ideology that attracts those of a more racist persuasion (isn’t it obvious? Conservatism, by definition, refers to wanting to conserve or recover the better times that have largely past, and those better times were times when there was more white hegemony and far less diversity of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation).

    Feel free to interact over at http://heavyforthevintage.com/, and I will do my best to address your objections. but I’ll leave you with this: What I find disheartening about the right’s platform is that it seems like it’s often in direct opposition to Jesus’ command to love thy neighbor. On point after point (many of which I list in the piece), an all-out effort is made to harm (or refuse to help) the poor, the stranger, and the disenfranchised. While I certainly don’t agree with certain liberal ideas (like abortion), I do find much more compassion on the left than on the right.

  21. Xenia says:

    I don’t know what kind of neighborhood you live in, Jason, but I live on the wrong side of the tracks in a very diverse neighborhood of people, most of whom are politically liberal. And I never met a more race-conscious bunch of people. They refer to each other as “those Mexicans over there” or “that white lady down the street” or “that black guy.” And when you get to talking with them, the disdain they have for other races is pretty apparent. One liberal black neighbor, upon introducing him to my Danish friends, said to their faces “Oh, you guys must be Nazis.”

  22. Muff Potter says:

    RE david sloane @ # 18:

    The older I get the more I see how scratched and dirty my younger lenses were. Loved your anecdote about the Mexican barber shop! Just last week there was a quinceanera in my neighborhood. The accordion and its riffs in the Mexican music was borrowed from the Germans long ago. Such unbridled joy and celebration of what it means to be human! We Anglo Saxons could learn a thing or two from the Mexican people.

  23. filbertz says:

    I think the so-called “rapture index” is tied to the author’s blood pressure, that’s all. 😉

  24. Jim says:

    Christian liberals seem to have this weird disconnect between Jesus’ commands for His followers and what the US govt should be doing. They seem to think that taking at gunpoint from one group to give another is moral, and that the recipients of other people’s money are actually helped by the govt’s actions. Please study the war on poverty, and it’s devastating affect on black families.

    BTW, I fully support the right of “bi-racial” gay married couples to protect their legal marijuana with an AR15. I also hold my nose and vote republican.

  25. filbertz says:

    our culture grows increasingly lumpy…we lump folks into categories though the categories are inaccurate, the measure isn’t calibrated, and the lumper is defiled.

  26. I agree with Jim’s comment above. This is why I asked Jason about his book on the 2 kingdoms.

    Is it not possible for me and my church, or better put the totality of my christian experience, to be 100% in line with the teachings of Jesus about the poor and abused downtrodden and still object to what I want to allow my government to do?

    Is it not OK for me to object to the government actions, with regard to how they want to dole out funds for the poor, when I think that the course they are taking is corrupt and unchristian?

    How jason can think what the government is doing is just fine, is absolutely beyond me.

  27. Josh Hamrick says:

    Lumpy like a bowl of grits.

  28. MLD,

    How jason can think what the government is doing is just fine, is absolutely beyond me.

    Could you please point me to somewhere where I highlighted “what the government is doing” and claimed it was “just fine”?

    I don’t think I have made any such claims. And for the record, I don’t like Obama in the least.

  29. Josh Hamrick says:

    “I don’t like Obama in the least.”


  30. gomergirl says:

    Josh, So are you saying that, if I disagree with the president’s ideology, and think it faulty, then I am a racist?

  31. Jason,
    All of your “Christian Right” objections (your little quotes) were to things the government was doing or wanted to do.
    So, since you were slamming the opposing side … i made the leap to you were supporting the liberal government side.

    If you say the government position is wrong and you are not siding with them – how can you say the Christian right position is wrong?

  32. gomergirl says:

    And Xenia, I have similar experience too. But I have also lived in the South, and experienced overwhelming racism, that I did not realize even existed outside of movies. Growing up in southern California, I never even thought about race as an issue until the LA riots really brought it to the public eye. (in my adult awareness) And even then I was not something that I experienced personally (either as witness or toward me or from me)

  33. Xenia says:

    GG, I agee, I have seen terrible racism in my native North Carolina. I was responding to the rather naive statement that most racists are conservatives.

  34. Josh Hamrick says:

    “Josh, So are you saying that, if I disagree with the president’s ideology, and think it faulty, then I am a racist?”


  35. A funny kind of story about racism. I think my grandkids are being raised differently than I was … which is good. I am sure they get this from school.

    My 7 yr old grandson and I were watching WWE Wrestling a couple of weeks ago and during a match I said to him if Daniel Bryan beats this guy he will wrestle the black guy sitting with the announcers next.

    He looked at me and said “PopPop, yous shouldn’t talk about people by their color, you should look for something else to describe them – the guy with the red shirt or the guy wearing the headphones.” that taught me something. 🙂

  36. Josh Hamrick says:

    Wait, GG – I’m sorry, I’m just goofing around. I don’t think Jason or you are racist. I was excited about Obama’s presidency, but think he has done a lousy job.

    I have seen racism from every side. Been guilty of it at times. Been victimized by it at times.

  37. EricL says:

    Anyone have 200K to give me? Then my novels could be NY Times Bestsellers too! No offers? Oh well, I guess I’ll just have to get my sales the old fashion way, earning them one reader at a time. Sigh, it takes so much longer that way…

  38. Steve Wright says:

    Obamacare was sold to us on the basis of compassion and we had many a conversation here about how at least Obama and the Democrats “care” and are trying to “do something” – while guys like me (who had half a clue about insurance, running a business, meeting a payroll, providing for benefits, meeting government mandates, the burdens of new taxes etc). said they are actually going to do more harm than good and what they are proposing will not possibly work.

    Now of course we have seen the latter to be true. OK, let’s be charitable and give the left an A for compassion and good intentions.

    But what amazes me is that even though the left knows, KNOWS that people are going to get hurt more and more, rather than work on changing the law, we see this unprecedented act of taking parts of the law and by Obama’s decree saying they will be delayed until after the next election – because the left knows they will get killed and lose their power (likely their Senate majority) if the law continues as written and millions of Americans are crushed in its wake.

    We have an understanding and admission that the law is HURTING people, and rather than the left admitting they were wrong and working to change the law they just delay the hurt until after they safely can get reelected.

    There is nothing compassionate about that. It is raw power and stubborn pride.

    That’s just one example. We could discuss the billions in tax dollars given to the left’s cronies in unprofitable green energy businesses which is repaid with hundreds of millions to the Democrat party reelection efforts…

  39. j2theperson says:

    ***Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery. Forty-five percent of black crime is against whites, 43 against other blacks, and 10 percent against Hispanic.***

    But, yeah, sure, white conservatives are more racist. [insert eye roll here]. Seriously, just saying that you find something to be indisputable does not mean it actually is indisputable. I would like to see what sort of evidence, statistics, or facts Jason has to back up his assertion that “most racists are conservatives”. Once facts are brought into the equation then maybe some kind of productive dialogue about this issue can take place, but until then we’re just talking about subjective impressions.


  40. dusty says:

    hi Michael, hope this winter has not been too harsh on your health. love ya big brother

  41. Michael says:

    It’s ben a long winter, but I’m still here. 🙂
    Hope you’re well, my friend.

  42. dusty says:

    im good, thanks. Sorry your having a hard time. 🙁

  43. JS said: “I obviously don’t expect my sentiments to find much traction among a group of evangelical Christians, most of whom are probably more conservative than liberal (I get that you’re not my target audience, is what I’m saying).”

    See, I said as much in my statement previously “being hip so he can look cool to all the other hip guys.”

    What a condescending statement. I expected as much though.

    I live in the South, I see racism from every direction I look. All races and all political parties.
    When I lived in South Dakota, I saw the same thing except there were different groups to hate different people.
    I also see the opposite from every direction I look.
    I have never seen such a hack statement as “most racists are conservatives”.
    People that make statements like this make me believe they have led a very sheltered life and have actually interacted with mainly one group or social class.

    MLD said: “I think all people are racists.”
    Now this is far closer to the truth.
    Everyone has prejudices lying inside for some people or group.

  44. Steve Wright says:

    Derek, I would imagine that if someone had something thoughtful to say that was backed up with J2’s trio of “evidence, statistics, or facts” then the idea of writing to a “target audience” would go out the window and any thinking person might benefit from the work.

    Now…if someone just wants to throw mud and name-call, then yeah, it’s best to make it as outrageous as possible to get the most like-minded “amens” from the choir – feeding them what they want to hear.

    Of course, in this case the name-calling is against a large portion of the Body of Christ, so hard to square that with Christ too. But Jim and MLD both covered that ground earlier.

  45. Rob Murphy says:

    If putting money where mouth is means anything anymore, statistically that all of us homophobic, closet racist, misogynist, backward-ass country bumpkin, gun toting, middle class-wishing-it-were the 1950s, Ozzie and Harriet wannabe, Mr. Rogers’ sweater wearing, segregationist, Tea Partying Tea Baggers, stuck in the Reagan 80s, hate mongering, luddite simpletons . . . all of us? We out-give, outspend, and blow the doors off any other groups as far as charitable contributions go. But then again, with a net that wide (and disparaging), we have a broad base to draw from.

    Keep up the blanket statements, we’ll keep living in ‘FactLand’, where we do all the tax paying, family raising and contributing to charities. Y’all keep watching slide shows on the weather, sending a woman back into the kitchen to make a cake for a couple homosexual dudes (war on women? what?) and handing out Nobel Prizes for killing people with drones and invading other countries.

    Occupy Cupertino!

  46. Rob – LOL all the way 🙂

  47. So what number does the Rapture Index have to hit trigger a spontaneous rapture?

  48. Jim says:

    My IQ just dropped a couple of points while reading the rapture index.

  49. I have a question about the Driscoll thing. Did they pay for marketing and sell the books, or was this just paying to be put on the list?

    If they sold the books what is the big hullabaloo?

    Movie studios spend millions to get the academy voters to vote for their movies .

    Budweiser puts big busted ladies in tight T shirts to get guys to drink more beer.

    Am I missing something?

  50. It almost looks to me from the article, MLD, that Mars Hill Church bought 11,000 of the books themselves and…(here I am guessing) that those sales may have driven it onto the bestseller list?
    I might be wrong, but it looks like a scam to make it look like their is far more interest than there actually is.

  51. I messed my “their” up there.

  52. If your own organization is the biggest buyer of your book to make it look like your book is really popular….well that sounds like something most pastors wouldn’t want to be involved in.
    But, obviously Mark Driscoll isn’t most pastors.

  53. Michael says:

    Mars Hill purchased the books, then the books are sent out to folks to make it look like they were purchased by the public.
    It’s gaming the system at a cost of a couple hundred grand.

  54. Derek, thanks for that. I can’t imagine that Saddleback doesn’t buy up 1,000s of Rick Warren books.

    I don’t know, but then I don’t read the best seller lists. Is his book a best seller among best sellers or is it a best seller in some obscure category – you know #1 Best Seller in the Paint category. 😉

  55. MLD,
    It is one thing to put your book in the church bookstore. This whole thing sounds like a legal scam.
    I can’t imagine Rick Warren gaming the system like this.

  56. Ian Elsasser says:

    MLD said, “My 7 yr old grandson and I were watching WWE Wrestling a couple weeks ago”

  57. I think the fact that there are companies that do this and offer the service, that it probably get’s used quite a bit.

  58. Ian, I DVR WWE Raw each week and we watch on the nights that he sleeps over. 🙂

  59. MLD, that goes back to Jared Wilson’s first point in the article I posted earlier.

  60. Derek, I’m not defending it – I am just saying that the whole system may be a ‘pay to play’.

    Hey, putting big busted ladies in tight T shirts isn’t fair either … but if you look around, they all do it now.

  61. Gotcha

  62. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    re Mark Driscoll:

    “Why is there not a sniff of repentance or church discipline in the air?”

    Now How would they do this, when they don’t have power outside of their own Institutional walls? As Gorilla Monsson would say “Gimme a Break!”

  63. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    and if your talking Chruch discipline for Pastors, Driscoll is just the touch of the Iceberg. Were talking Rick Warren, Skip Heitzig, Raul Ries, Pancho Juarez, Xavier Ries etc.

  64. I might be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that attendance has been dropping at Mars Hill and along with that revenues.
    Maybe, there is good news in the fact that some seem to be voting with their feet.
    Of course, it would be better if church discipline was taken, but at least it would show that not everyone is blind to what is going on with their pastor.

  65. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Church Discipline should also apply for false teaching and watering down the gospel. Look at Raul letting his son run amock with that Dark and Demonic “WHOSOEVER” gimmick

  66. SolRod,
    What exactly has Rick Warren done to deserve church discipline?
    Sorry, but I don’t hear of scandals that involve him.

  67. Nevermind, #68 lets me know your reasoning on that.

  68. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    no scandals and there doesn’t need to be but watering down the gospel, I have heard this myself listening to on the Radio. He has also told the Saints not to worry about prophecy which is wrong because Jesus even tells us to keep watch. he goes against the very words of our saviour

  69. filbertz says:

    I think it is wrong to water down the gospel. I like my gospel neat.

  70. brian says:

    “Why is there not a sniff of repentance or church discipline in the air?”

    Because he makes money and increases the brand the nano second he does not the “wrath” will fall and it will not be from God. One other thing might also cause repentance, If a few of the higher ups in the Corp. decide to come down on him.

  71. EricL says:

    As for Driscoll’s gaming the system, here’s a synopsis on how to get on the NY Times best-seller list. The list is more about your velocity of sales than it is about total quantity sold. Sell a whole bunch of books in a matter of weeks and you will get on, even if some other book sold double the amount over a year’s time. It is also easier to get on a best-seller list when its not the 3rd quarter (Oct-Dec is when all the big names are released for Christmas)

    NYT polls only certain bookstores to get their sales numbers (its supposed to be a secret but most of NY Publishing can guess which stores are included- they also game the system when they want). So, you hire someone to send in paid “buyers” to hit those stores during that critical short window and voila you are a New York Times best-seller (and a cheat in my opinion). Frankly, the USA Today and Amazon best seller lists are far more honest, but there’s a certain cache with mentioning the NYT on your cover.

  72. EricL,
    The last point in the article I posted is the most important for other authors.

    5. It disadvantages those actually gifted.

    1 Peter 2:12 comes to mind when I see pastors doing things like this.

  73. Has anyone here bought a book because you heard it was on the best seller list? That there seems like sheep mentality.

  74. EricL says:

    That article hit some great points. Most of these schemes (gaming the best-seller system, have others write the books you put your celebrity name on, plagiarizing, fake social media followers, and so on) happen all too much in the publishing world. Is is sad when Christians do the same. It is far worse when supposed Christian leaders act this way.

    Sell your inheritance for a bowl of stew? Today, some sell their reputation and good name just to get a bit more fame and fortune.

  75. MLD’s #76. Actually, no. At least myself.
    But, let’s face it, it makes some people think that “this book must be good” and that in turn drives more sales.

    The first impetus to buy a book for me is a lot of times based on their covers though.
    When in a bookstore and I see a cover that appeals to me, I am more apt to pick the book up and read the dust jacket to see if it will appeal to me based on that.

  76. Geez Derek, you guys still have bookstores. 🙂 Rare breed around here.

  77. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “Because he makes money and increases the brand the nano second he does not the “wrath” will fall and it will not be from God. One other thing might also cause repentance, If a few of the higher ups in the Corp. decide to come down on him.”

    Problem with that is, they are powerless outside their Box and hold no wieght oputside the four walls. Chruch discipline needs to come from the sheep, that’s where the power is! As long as american church goers stay in love with the celebrity pastors then this will continue

  78. Here too.
    I do buy a lot more books online nowadays.
    But sometimes, you just gotta spend a few hours walking through bookstore.
    23 miles to the closest one now, but it is always worth it.

  79. Josh Hamrick says:

    A few things – James Duncan wrote an article a few weeks ago about furtick doing this same thing. It is gaming the system, and yes, most everyone does it. MLD, the issue is not trying to get people to buy the book, it is the title of “NYT best-selling author”. You slap that on your bio and you start getting the big conference speaking gigs, which are about 10-25,000 dollars a pop. Its just a dirty little business that pastors have no place in.

    Rick Warren is way different in this aspect: He sold millions and millions of his books. Whether Saddleback bought some or not, his book was an actual hit. And I don’t like Warren, but he doesn’t have to run that little scam to get his asterisk mention on a NYT sub-list. His real sales top the main list.

    Re: Bookstores: We have two in great ones in my town. One is more new stuff and niche stuff, with a cool atmosphere and great location. The other is kinda an old warehouse with tons of slightly used books. I love that store. We have three colleges in my small town, two are christian schools, so there all kinds of good cheap books in that store.

  80. Josh,
    Forgot about the used bookstores.
    I love the used bookstores more than new ones.
    Great Goodwill one in Southhaven.
    You can always get a heap of books for cheap.

  81. Josh Hamrick says:

    Our other bookstore is just a great place to walk around, peruse a book or two, drink a coffee…
    The run across town and find the book for cheaper 🙂

  82. erunner says:

    For me a great place to buy books is at the library. They’re used but the majority are in near perfect condition. The library closest to home for the last week of each month will sell you as many books as you can fit into a bag for a dollar. I was able in one trip to get tons of books for our grandchildren. Some of them my wife uses to help as she works with kids who have speech issues. Might be an option for some of you.

  83. RiBo says:

    Jason said, “My point is that there seems to be something built into the conservative ideology that attracts those of a more racist persuasion (isn’t it obvious? Conservatism, by definition, refers to wanting to conserve or recover the better times that have largely past, and those better times were times when there was more white hegemony and far less diversity of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation).”

    No, that simply isn’t true. I live in Idaho, I am theologically very liberal and I don’t like the evangelical church very much at all, especially Calvary Chapel. I also don’t like big chunks of the Republican Party and lean very populist Libertarian. I live in a largely white state, but we do have mexicans/latinos/hispanics and even enough black dudes that I have many clients and friends who are black here and we have asians, jews, you name it. My next door neighbor at one of my locations is straight-of-the-boat mandarin speaking chinese and his kids are first gen Americans who speak english and mandarin.

    We all get along quite well.

    I don’t like many whites.

    Why is this?

    B/c I’ve learned it’s really not about “race” in the conservative Camp…it’s about Ideology and Culture.

    The black dudes here and the latino dudes here are rednecks or conservative or at minimum they don’t have chips on their shoulder and are comfortable living with a bunch of white people.

    I am more comfortable around the latino and blacks and asians here in Idaho than I am around white dudes from liberal areas who are into much different things and have a liberal bent toward everything.

    That is the difference and I find it overwhelmingly consistent with the conservatives and evangelicals here in Idaho…even though I don’t agree with them theologically and even sometimes politically b/c I’m more a populist in my Libertarianism.

    The vast majority of conservatives here would very much vote for a black conservative or latino conservative over a white liberal. That proves that race is not the issue, it’s ideology.

    The vast majority here would be more comfortable in a room full of latino and black hunters, shooters, conservatives than a room full of liberal hipsters wearing skinny jeans and google glasses…and that is a fact.

    Conversely, many of my black and latino friends here who are conservative and redneck get heat from their race communities for being conservative. They are more discriminated against, often, within their own race group and many feel more comfortable around whites who share similar interests and ideology. Explain that.

    The Liberal “racism” mythology projected onto conservative whites is just that, a myth (largely) and a political tool.

    The fact is, today, most of the overt racism is in the Liberal Camp and perpetuated by the very Groups that had a legit beef years ago when the mindset of conservative whites was much different. Those racial Groups that once had a legit beef won the argument. Now they’ve over-reached and the pendulum has swung too far the other direction where it is OK for groups like “La Raza” (the race) to exist and for groups led by racists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are accepted as commonplace and apologized for.

    I do agree that racism still exists…but it is much more prevalent in the Liberal Camp as evidenced by the many Liberal Groups that continue to push for separation by Race and have special Groups labeled by the color of the skin or the particular race. If we’re ever going to be less racist, we need to have a legally race-blind playing field that doesn’t factor in race and doesn’t separate over race and doesn’t label over race…but that won’t happen in our lifetime b/c it would put a lot of Liberal Groups out of business. Liberal Race Groups need the controversy and need the Boogie Man b/c it raises money and pays the bills.

  84. RiBo says:

    The fact is most blacks are liberal and many blacks are into hip-hop culture. 90% of blacks vote Liberal Democrat. The majority of blacks blame the whites for their high incarceration rates and problems in general…even though it is fact that the highest Crime cities in the nation are run by Liberals, policed by Liberals, controlled by Liberals.

    How is conservative whitey responsible for high black incarceration when it is Liberals who govern, control, police etc the cities where these individuals are getting arrested and incarcerated?

    That is where many whites disagree and that is what many whites don’t like, it has nothing to do with the color of the person’s skin. The dislike is cultural and ideological.

    I don’t like the hip-hop culture, not b/c it’s black, but b/c it preaches hatred toward women, hatred toward whites, hatred toward conservatives, it teaches lawlessness, random violence and general thuggery. I don’t like the white guys who embrace the hip-hop culture just as much.

    I don’t like Islam and muslims, not b/c of their race, b/c of their religious ideology and culture that hates women, children, infidels, etc and b/c they tend not to assimilate into Western culture (see Europe as a prime example).

    Westernized Christian* arabs, persians, etc? No problem. Non-islamic, non-Christian* arabs, persians? No problem. Liberal muslims who don’t want to cut my head off for being an infidel and don’t want to oppress women or slaughter homosexuals? No problem.

    If I see a white guy with baggy pants and his hat turned sideways and I see a black dude wearing camo and a marine corps hat…I’d rather hang out with the black dude and I’d feel much safer around the black dude. We do judge by appearance but it’s not the color of the skin, it’s the dress, the culture, the attitude and how the person reacts to you.

    To Stellman’s observation that seeing a black man as a cop or firefighter and a conservative thinks “affirmative action!” I think this happens at times, but that’s a result of the fact of affirmative action where two people of equal qualifications or sometimes one with lesser qualifications is hired specifically due to their racial makeup while the other is penalized due to their racial makeup…that is by definition racism.

    However, personally, when I see a black or latino firefighter or cop I don’t think that. I do, however, think that when I see a woman firefighter of any color or race b/c the standard has to be lowered for women to become firefighters b/c they can’t pack the same amount of gear as the dudes in most cases…which is a dangerous lowering of the standard IMO and I could care less if it’s a white woman or a purple woman. That isn’t “racist” or misogynistic, it’s called Physics and common sense. It endangers the woman and it endangers the crew and the fire victims.

    There should be one standard that is set as a minimum to do the job correctly and race and gender shouldn’t matter and shouldn’t be a factor.

    Conversely, if someone is more qualified than another, race and gender shouldn’t matter as well.

    A good way to address this would be blind resumes (no race, no gender), blind referrals, and competency tests (physical and mental) that are conducted blind to gender and race. Then hire based on the scores, not knowing race or gender.

  85. RiBo says:

    The NBA, NFL and all professional Sports Leagues are a good example of Merit Based/Skill Based hiring.

    We need Affirmative Action in the NBA! I am discriminated against b/c I’m short, slow and white and can’t jump! The percentage of black NBA players does NOT represent the population!

    I applied for a job with the Lakers and I didn’t get it! It’s b/c I’m white!

    …no, it’s b/c I’m 5’11”, slow, can’t shoot that well, can’t dribble that well and there are black guys who are a zillion times better at basketball than I am. That’s just life. Fortunately I can make a living doing something that matches my skillset and attributes better.

  86. RiBo says:

    Jason said, ” (I get that you’re not my target audience, is what I’m saying)”

    That’s a big part of the problem, you are catering to a “target audience” vs. seeking to be as intellectually honest about the issue as possible. You are afraid and have white liberal guilt b/c you have bought into the “Conservatives are racists!” myth hook, line and sinker, when the facts and data on this issue don’t support it.

    Define “Racism”…give me a metric. Give me something quantifiable.

    Groups that separate by Race? Race Groups that have the title of their Race in their name? Liberals have the most.

    Laws that discriminate based solely on a person’s Race? Liberals have this, it’s called Affirmative Action.

    Rasmussen Poll 2013: “Among black poll respondents, 31 percent said blacks are more racist, while 24 percent think whites are more racist and 15 percent say Hispanic Americans show greater racist tendencies.”

    Rasmussen Poll 2013: “Overall, 37 percent of Americans feel that black Americans are the most racist among the three ethnic groups, 15 percent feel that whites are and 18 percent think Hispanics are.”

    How do you square this poll data with your thesis Jason?

  87. The suggestion that all moral high ground belongs to liberals seems to be hate speech. Yes I am pretty sure it is hate speech. When you can convince enough people that another group of people are always on the dark side you are not far from gaining permission to harm those people.

    Arguing moral superiority is a high wire act without a net. Stay up there long enough and you will have to come down.

  88. Actually I am usually disgusted by all people regardless of race.

  89. Ixtlan says:

    “That’s a big part of the problem, you are catering to a “target audience” vs. seeking to be as intellectually honest about the issue as possible.”

    RiBo is correct here.

    And so is Babylon’s Dread
    “The suggestion that all moral high ground belongs to liberals seems to be hate speech. ”

    I’ve known several liberals that were racist.. Remember NIMBYs? Liberal and Conservative alike. But to say all racists are conservatives is either a spin doctor at work, pushing their agenda, or just plain stupid.

  90. gomergirl says:

    RiBo….. you hit the nail on the head, and quite eloquently at that. Thank you. 🙂

  91. brian says:

    “Has anyone here bought a book because you heard it was on the best seller list? That there seems like sheep mentality.”

    Actually no, I usually purchase my reading material outside of my personal interest I get from forums like this one. In fact many of the books I purchase have come from direct posts here on the blog. I do tend to read alot, maybe three or four books a month, but I do tend to purchase eBooks. I find text is getting harder and harder to see. But I think your point is valid in some sense but these lists do make a difference otherwise people would not do them. Selling books is a business so I understand that.

  92. brian says:

    MLD “Actually I am usually disgusted by all people regardless of race.”

    One of the reasons I almost be came an atheist to be honest. I never quite achieved that spiritual level.

  93. Ian D. Elsasser says:

    MLD said, “Ian, I DVR WWE Raw each week and we watch on the nights that he sleeps over.”

    My youngest son and I watch Raw Monday nights and then catch most of Smackdown Friday nights. Undertaker has been one of my favourites dating back to 1990s and my eldest and I was elated to see his return a week and a half ago.

  94. Steve Wright says:

    A brief bit of punctuation to an earlier point. The Obama Administration has now made it known that they are not keeping any sort of records as to how many uninsured people are signing up. The primary reason for the law, and for all the chaos foisted on the American people, and they aren’t even keeping track.

    Why? Well, I suppose people could make their guesses but I think this guy nails it on the head and it fits the discussion here to the letter.

    ” It’s easier to claim you’re helping people when you refuse to collect data that might say otherwise.”

    Amen. Agree 100%.

  95. Nonnie says:

    Ribo’s 87 …..I agree.

  96. RiBo says:

    “Only one in 10 uninsured people who qualify for private plans through the new health insurance marketplaces enrolled as of last month, according to a survey by the consulting firm McKinsey & Co., The Washington Post reported on Thursday.

    The McKinsey survey found that only 27 percent of people who have selected a plan on the exchanges described themselves as having previously been without insurance. That percentage is up from 11 percent a month earlier, the report said.”–Washington Post 2014

  97. Steve Wright says:

    RiBo, I saw that survey too and as depressing as that number is we also note, that’s all it is – not formal government statistics.

    To quote: That’s according to a survey conducted by McKinsey, not according to HHS’s official figures. And why, you ask, are we forced to rely on McKinsey for this information rather than on the feds?

    Because, silly. Your government, which reinvented the insurance industry in the name of expanding coverage to many millions of uninsured Americans, is oddly incurious about whether uninsured Americans are signing up or not.

    Gary Cohen is the guy who is resigning at the end of the month who also said they aren’t bothering to keep those stats.

    I stand by my earlier point. The only reason not to is so that it can’t be definitively shown what a failure things are.

  98. Shaun Sells says:

    “…a sniff of repentance?”
    – Driscoll states: “The error was unintentional, but serious nonetheless. I take responsibility for all of this. In order to make things right, we’ve contacted the publisher of the works used in the study guide, offered an apology, and agreed to work with them to resolve any issues they had.”
    “Mistakes were made that I am grieved by and apologize for,” states Driscoll. “As a Bible teacher, I know that Jesus loves us and uses everything for good. I know he cares very much that we do things in a way that reflects his glory. As a result, I have been praying that he would help me learn through all of this to become more like him and more effective for him.”

    *** That is a sniff at least. Don’t know about the book sales thing.

  99. Michael says:


    That was for one book.
    Now we have it multiplied and a pattern is evident.
    We now even have a paid lecture where he rips off Tim Keller.

  100. dswoager says:

    With the Heavy for the Vintage blog it seemed pretty intellectually dishonest to lump a bunch of people in with the racists (seriously he doesn’t believe they are “all” racists) and then say simply that they are on the wrong side of every issue. You could call me a racist and then also accuse me of thinking that 2+2=4 and people would start questioning their arithmetic. Strong words exist for a reason, but anymore it seems like they are used to shut down conversation and morally raise the user above their opponent (because that is what we are to each in our internet jousting society).

    That being said, I have to admit I share some of the sentiment that he is carrying there. I do have literally every person from my old church blocked or unfriended on facebook because the way that they interface with political and social issues made me lose a lot of respect for some otherwise lovely people. It is something that I experience a decent amount of frustration with, so I can at least see where he is coming from.

  101. Shaun Sells says:

    The true answer to “where is the repentance” will be known as future books come out – will they be documented well or not. If so, that is repentance, if not then he is continuing in his sin. I am sure the blogosphere will keep us up to date. I have never read any of his books so I won’t be able to help with that.

  102. Michael says:


    True repentance would be a confession that he’s shamelessly ripped off other speakers and writers and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithe money to make himself look
    You’re damn right I’ll help the world keep up with how he’s doing on both counts.

  103. Jtk says:

    How arrogant that we think our gas prices, unemployment rate and interest rates have ANYTHING to do with Jesus coming back!


    “We”….anybody who is a “rapture ready” adherent

  104. brian says:

    You know Jtk that is a very good insight.

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