The Tony Jones story just took another leap forward into the abyss with this article, The Evidence Against Tony Jones.
I don’t normally follow what goes on in emergent circles, but this one bears many of the traits we’ve seen over and over again when a prominent Christian desires to change wives.
The ex wife to be had better comply or be crushed under the weight of all the resources available to male Christian leaders.
This is a prominent leader and Julie McMahon is at least being heard, partly because of her former husbands notoriety.
The women who have suffered similar (alleged) abuse at the hands of less prominent men who have the same benefit of more resources and power are rarely heard.
They suffer at the hands of the man and then at the hands of the community that will support him at any cost lest an cherished idol fall.
The Good Book says they will know us for our love…the question is “when?”
I don’t believe in “saints”… the idea that there are some folks who are so good that they enter heaven to their own theme music and are available to take requests from those left behind.
I’m too old, too cynical, and I’ve seen too damn much to buy in to that mythology.
Kayla Mueller makes me think twice about that.
She died at 26 having touched people at the point of their need in her community and around the world.
For my own sanity I have to believe that the seeds she planted of grace and love will someday grow to help choke out the evil that took her life.
Had she not been murdered by barbarians we would never have know her name or her works.
There are thousands out there like her who we never will hear of nor celebrate… because they do the works of God for those who need them, not for the benefits they may get from them.
Remember them when we despair of those who use the things of God for personal gain.
I pray for her family and all those she touched…and I pray her tribe increase.
“There are thousands out there like her who we never will hear of nor celebrate… because they do the works of God for those who need them, not for the benefits they may get from them.”
Michael, in a time when Christians are exposed for sin and others who are attacked unfairly the words above help me not to become so cynical I fail to see the good when it’s there to see. It’s a shame this poor girl (she was younger than all of my children) suffered such a tragic death.
Kayla represents so many more whose selfless work and dedication to God are surely noted in Heaven. My heart goes out to her family.
Hearing about Kayla reminds me of those words written at the end of Heb. 11:36 “Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy.”
Yea, I’m definitely convicted, whining about my difficulties and issues so trivial by comparison. Forgive me Lord. Oh for just a mustard seed amount of this girl’s faith. Thank God for her example. May we all be inspired and encouraged.
Does anyone know anything more about Kayla Mueller’s faith? What I mean is, does anyone know if she was a Christian?
She talked about God, but I was wondering about if she went any deeper?
I’m glad you brought that up because I expect that kind of parsing to happen.
Let me be very clear on how much I don’t care how deep her intellectual doctrine went.
Her life spoke that she had the big parts down pat.
True dat Michael (comment #4)!
Kayla’s character is already being slandered all across the web by some conservative, fundievangelicals -real dirtbags IMO. Because whatever motivated her spiritually doesn’t fit their parameters but does suit their political agendas to tear her down even in death.
I appreciated this AZ article with quotes from those who actually knew and loved her.
After all the recent discussion about faith v. works etc I confess I don’t give a rat’s patootie whether she was “right with God” according to ANY body’s standards, dogma or theology.
There is a part of me that is deeply grieved by the questions in #3.
Everyone who serves as she did in dire humanitarian efforts to bring comfort and fight injustice “has the big parts down”.
This is a highly redacted rant.
#4 Michael. Yes! Bravo! and Amen! Who are we to scrutinize what may have been happening radically in the mysteries of her soul’s interactions with the Holy Spirit of God. It is hard for me to believe that her heart pushed out His Spirit’s nudge and went about its own agenda. Isaiah 53 was widely understood in our faith’s pre-incarnattion history as the bit that spoke of the role of the “suffering servant”. (Before we limited its applications in total to the Christ of Israel) It was Israel’s call–vocation if you will, They fell short. The church seems to be falling short too, as we have missed the huge theme of vocational suffering in God’s Kingdom as our “call”. Jesus clearly showed us what that looked like–the role of suffering servant–perfectly in fact! God-with-Us! (suffering humanity).
This young ladies example seems to fulfill that ancient expectation through a sheer concern (love?) for the people of Syria. I deeply suspect the Spirit of God had something to do with this.
I only ask because our community is SO quick to embrace anyone who speaks generically of “God”, and to embrace them as one of our own. I am only asking if she was – not by her acts – but by her confession, a Christian.
What I have read thus far, she could have been a JW, Mormon, ….I don’t really know more than that.
You said it far better than I did.
None of us will ever know what took place in her heart and mind in her captivity…I only know that love demanded she put herself in a place to be a captive.
My sound theology usually demands far less of me.
I don’t embrace her because she spoke about God but because she acted like Him.
“I don’t embrace her because she spoke about God but because she acted like Him.” Yes!! Thank you, Michael. And she embraced those she served possibly because she could see the image of the God she sought to know & serve in them as well-despite all their brokeness and differences in culture/politics/ethnicity.
I’ve often wondered if folks who fit this similar category fall asleep (die) only wake and discover that they are what we (still clothed in skin) call “Christians” in fact.?? As a result of an exchange that only they and God’s Spirit knew about. Perhaps they died before they had the vocabulary, or the culture to bring their new faith some understanding??
Not saying that I “know”.
Still…….I’m finding it increasingly more difficult to tether intellectual understanding of particular doctrines to the requirements of what we have come to understand as “salvation”.
I don’t know anything about the situation, but I’m assuming from the defensive responses there must have been some reason to doubt that she was a Christian?
Thank you Michael and others here for continuing to embrace me despite what some may call heresy, others more gently, call confusion in my life. No matter where I fall on the continuum of faith & no faith, now or in the future, I will always be grateful for your ongoing kindness and compassion.
You have pointed to a true mystery.
I can’t answer it and at this point I believe I would be walking on holy ground to try.
The church today clouds the message of redemption with so many other messages that are unrelated but culturally accepted that some find it hard to hear through the background noise.
I trust the Lord to judge rightly.
I love you and appreciate you.
There seems to be little record of how she defined her faith.
In my mind she defined it by her life.
God will help her with the contractual details.
I do hope that she knew Jesus.
Josh – supposed ‘christians’ and their para church organizations are writing articles denouncing her for being a traitor and worse for wanting to bring humanitarian serves to the likes of the Palestinians, Syrians, etc rather than serving her “own kind” ARggggg! Spare yourself the google search unless you want to feel like you need to take 100 showers and volunteer to have your brainwashed out by a power washer. They make the usual ODMs look like the mickey mouse club.
Here is a rule that helps me to dismiss my retractors: If they cannot define the word “heresy”, or explain its origins or original applications, they do not get my attention 🙂 If they can…I take heed to their warnings.
I’m with you…..VERY thankful for this place (PP blog) to wrestle with the things that have been plaguing me for some 35 years now. You are certainly not alone. I know very few who have actually “arrived”. I too am “confused”—but choose to see it as my profound unwillingness to trust truth to someone else’s agenda—even if it forces me to say, “um…..I don’t really know.” sometimes.
Actually—there is great freedom when forced to trust God in all of this. Entirely.
Meant to say “detractors”—but retractors creates an effective visual that still makes my point. haha!!
I’m curious…are people suggesting that if she’s not “Christian” or “Christian enough” then we shouldn’t, as fellow Americans and humans, mourn for her loss?
What’s the purpose of trying to sort out what “kind” of faith she had?
Didn’t Rachel Evans vet these accusations and declare they had no foundation? I am pretty sure she is the pope of enlightened Christians everywhere.
Speaking to my point only–that is precisely why I’m defending this woman against her critics. Her life should be mourned, and will be by me. We just have this nasty habit of asking questions like, “was she one of ours”–at inappropriate times, when the truth is….few of us have figured out how define our faith clearly enough to do so.
This woman’s life has inspired and convicted me deeply.
L, there are hateful folks saying that not only should we not mourn, but are rejoicing at her death. And saying anyone who doesn’t share their view are not “christian enough” or at all. I am literally sick to my stomach after reading their vitriol. I wish could take back the time I spent reading their garbage. My heart goes out to her family & friends with earnest hope they are able to avoid such vomit.
in my rather limited view, TJones and KMueller are at opposite(loose) ends of a long, long rope. I’ll opt for the Mueller end any day. May her tribe increase.
Great juxtaposition. Great irony. fil. or Bert. z.?
may I simply say that loving your neighbor and your enemies are not optional for those who ‘claim’ the Christian faith.
RHE stuck her foot in it initially and has been backtracking ever since.
RHE is a work in progress like all of us. All of us go through denial stages when we hear the worst of our friends/co-laborers/family etc. Some never get past the denial stage as we have seen repeatedly with fallen pastors, etc. I had every hope/confidence that as more evidence besides he says/she says came out, she would eventually do a major backtrack.
#28 = priceless. Thanks, fil!!
I have no idea where people would be disparaging Kayla. If I did, I would avoid the venue in the future.
Jim, they are extreme neocon and Last Days must support Israel only at all costs wingnuts – on the fringes, I hope. That there are those who follow & swallow their schtick grieves me greatly. After this I will definitely be avoiding their venues, despite always believing in the past it was wise to know what the crazies were up to. No longer.
Sounds like the Israelis were not too excited about Kayla: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/16455
Pilgrim- more correctly, some Israelis. Not all Israelis support their govt handling of the Palestinian situation. Just sayin’
That’s all I was trying to ask.
That article was posted on another “Christian” pro Israel site.
The comments that followed were mainly in support of hoping that vile atrocities befell her before her death.
The Israel-Palestinian conflict has a lot of victims on both sides and is far more complex than we want to admit or deal with.
How would we know?
She gave her life caring for others and I’ve seen references to her Christianity from those who knew her.
I know lots of people who make a lot of money off their “profession of faith” and I think they are going to split hell wide open.
My guess is that she was what we would label a ‘liberal” Christian.
My second guess is that she really knew Jesus, but really didn’t like all the attitudes we hang off His hands.
When I was 26 I was in the middle of trying to stay drunk until I was 32…
How would we know? I think that’s what Papias was getting at. I’ve seen her being called a martyr and all that, but we really don’t know much about her faith.
Her death is tragic and is worthy of mourning, even if she was Muslim. I was curious, too, if she was a Christian. Again, I hope she was,
Why do we have this need to parse out the details?
I can almost promise that this young lady was not a Calvinist, did not hold to the Westminster Confession, and did not enjoy the music of Jimmy Swaggart.
I believe she was a sister anyway.
I need to believe in people like her because I’ve had to deal with too many who aren’t like her or Jesus at all.
I didn’t see anyone parsing the details.
I knew very little of the story. I see people calling her a Christian martyr and thus, I would be curious of her faith.
If there is really just not much record, Ok, I hope for the best. I’m not concerned about whether she was Pentecostal or Methodist.
I guess its not OK to question someone when they say “God”?
I was trying to find out if indeed she did profess Christ or not, which I truly hope she did.
Never once did I doubt her sincerity or her works.
I’m beginning to feel like I asked questions about an idol.
I guess we can ask, but why is it so important?
Which parsing of the faith will we find acceptable?
The bigger question in my mind is not if she professed Christ, but if Christ had professed her…and her journey was about discovering that He had?
I get shot at continually for pointing out the abuses of those who can speak the language of the tribe…I’m willing to take a few for someone who was still learning it.
Josh The Baptist wrote @ # 18:
I do hope that she knew Jesus.
Her very life preached the Good News loud and clear. How could she have not ‘known Jesus’?
Great job remembering Kayla. She’s about as good an example of a human being you can find on this planet. Thoughts and prayers to her family. Her brother Eric is a great guy. It’s a terrible tragedy for them, I can’t even imagine.
Well I for one hope that she was involved as a human shield against Israeli terrorism.
I posted maybe a week ago about a devout Jewish talk show host who is battling cancer. He seems to be a good as man as you might find anywhere as his character is impeccable and he lives out his Jewish faith faithfully.
I also found myself torn when the Jordanian pilot was burned to death by ISIS. His martyrdom rallied the Jordanian nation to go after ISIS to try and rid the world of the evil that they are.
I realized that if Michael Medved was to die in his present state and if Muath Al-Kasaesbeh died crying out to Allah that each of them will spend an eternity separated from God.
I know nothing of Kayla and I mourn her death as I did Muath Al-Kasaesbeh and I will leave it at that.
No matter your flavor of faith or lack of faith, IMO we are called to grieve with those who grieve. Thank you for modeling that dear Erunner.
On the Jones deal, does no-one abide by the qualifications for leadership anymore? I say this as much as I can with a plank lodged in my eye but “husband of one wife” springs to mind.
MLD, you have reached a new low.
I had a friend who took time off work to be a human shield for Palestian kids walking to school. Great example to me about being like Jesus, self-sacrificing etc.
he is a gay Budhist but one of the best examples of what I think Jesus would be doing in the 20th (at the time) century.
Except for the Israel right or wrong crowd, why is my statement “a new low.”
I love people who love and protect people at their own risk.
Perhaps your glasses were smudged and you read my comment wrong. 🙂
I have another friend who is currently living in Kurdistan. She is doing some photography work there.
She and her friends found out about 23 families living in an abandoned building in the village. Those families had fled their own lives because of ISIS.
My friend and a few of her friends have taken it upon themselves to feed, clothe, and care for all those people out of their own pockets.
When I write and asked his I could help, she felt compelled to tell me these people may not be Christian, may in fact be Muslim, but she didnt know. They’d never bothered to ask them, they just fed them etc.
she told me that some people didnt want to help because they only wanted to support displaced Christians.
I love that her group’s only criteria is that those people are hungry.
I want to be her when I grow up.
Please forgive me MLD! I truly misunderstood your comment – falsely thinking it was of the same ilk as those saying horrendous things they wished upon this precious young woman both before & after her death. I am so sorry to have even thought you were such as they. Again, please forgive my uncharitable knee jerk rush to judgment.
Look it is great for gay buddhist to do good works but it ain’t about Jesus. Making Jesus a politically correct do-gooder may make folk feel good but it is so foreign to the Jesus of the Bible … London dear … I love you but PULLLLEEASE …
Anne, love means never having to say you’re sorry – 😉
Anne, thanks for the response way up there. Now I know why I hadn’t heard the criticism. 🙂
London, you run with a good crowd.
True love means always being ready to say you’re sorry AND ready to forgive. Which I know you already know. Which I do a little bit better when I’m in a better frame of mind and my glasses aren’t so smudged by unrighteous indignation
I can lay out dozens of facts about Jesus that would offend the sensibilities of people who try to shove him into a mold …
He actually indicted people for a lack of faith … when he was healing the sick.
He constantly told people they would be excluded from the kingdom,
He prophesied the destruction of the nation and dated it
He didn’t visit John the Baptist in prison and sent a rebuke by John’s messengers back to him
He called a woman who wanted his ministry a dog as a means of provoking her
It is often proposed that Jesus was only offensive to those who were narrow minded.
The truth is his claims were and are so narrow minded that no honest reading of him can claim that he allowed that there was salvation apart from him and what he came to give. No one could give the Holy Spirit to you except by his work and authority, no one could forgive sins except by his work, his name, his authority. People are reworking Jesus around our enlightened sensibilities but it isn’t the Jesus of Nazareth.
No doubt all of us do some revising of Jesus in our ignorance and error but let’s not do it willfully in order to make him more palatable.
This is a debate forum so I figure we can manage this without shutting down on one another. Next time I am buying London and it has been too long… my bad.
Yes I know, I am a jerk.
That is why I post less frequently, in rehab.
I said pretty much the same thing to Alex the other day about “good” Mormons and their supposed working in the spirit. i told him they were working under the spirit of Satan who was using them to do good works to muddy the waters so this conversation today would happen.
I am not saying anything about this young lady who was killed and where she was religiously – but Satan wants everyone to think JUST DO GOOD and faith does not count.
If not, Jesus died for nothing … perhaps even less than nothing since there were good nice people probably doing relief efforts in the 1st century world before Jesus.
I didn’t read about the young lady just the old pervert … Jones.
The young lady and her faith is not something I am commenting on either. First, judging eternal destinies of individuals is above my pay grade. Second, she already dead so there is nothing to do about it. Third, that whole thing has been rehearsed here plenty.
But I will say that there will be plenty of good folk who perish in their sin.
I think a study of 1 John is in order. Check 1 John 4. The disciple whom Jesus loved really gets to the kernel of our salvation and our expression of our salvation and justification.
BD, we already had this conversation.
I’ll say now what I wish I’d said then…the man reminds me of what I believe Jesus would be like and I don’t give a rip what anyone else thinks about his sexuality or his religious beliefs.
He made me realize what it means to put your life on the line, literally, for people who others think of as enemies or are not considered worthy.
I liked it when we could just see someone do a good thing and honor it and not have to be told his resume to test our own honorability. I don’t give a rip what his religion is or who he screws nor do I need to know.
And yes we have… but
I am just as guilty as anyone of being a cafeteria style person of faith/unfaith. Always in a process of picking & choosing rather randomly what resonates with me as true. Anyone who is willing to lay down their lives, their comfort zone for the sake of another’s life is unabashedly my hero. All dogmas, theologies to me have become immense distractions. Probably the only thing I can claim to have in common with precious Kayla & others like her.
But everyone cares about who Tony Jones, and Ted Haggard screw because they’re pastors and somehow that means we all need to know about their sexual misbehaviour???
The whole point is that it doesn’t really matter what “faith” this young lady that was part of. She was out there, with risk to her own life, trying to help other people. Same as my friends.
She died for her compassion, and who gives a rat’s ass if she was the “right” kind of Christian or not?
The stuff that Anne said was on other threads sickens me.
Jones is an abuser … that is what we care about. And he wraps it up in a cloak of his faith. Truthfully I did not read the comments on the thread… just the Tony piece and the last bits. The story about the girl …I don’t even know what it is and was not commenting on it.
So I was a buttinski …
As for Ted … well he betrayed his calling, his wife, his family, and himself. The sex is just how he did it. Driscoll did it with power and I just had a friend do it with money. So …
Read Anne’s earlier comments to see what we were addressing.
I like it. 😉
Wow Kayla Mueller what a wonderful person, it seems she was a deeply spiritual kind Christian who cared about people. Then you read some of the nutters out there and man they really hate her, deeply wishing some rather awful things to happen to her before she was killed. I never wished that on anyone, even in my mind and heart, well maybe Hitler, Stalin, some serial killers, well no most serial killers, some politicians, some bullies from the past, the guy that cut me off this morning, ….. I need to be more like Kayla and less like her detractors. Very good article Michael.
Ya, I don’t get the negativity about Kayla. Helping Palestinians and Syrians is a-political when the help is humanitarian. It wasn’t like she was supplying them with arms or money. Her bro is in the gun industry. I don’t even think they are politically liberal. She was being the Good Samaritan…to the Samaritans.
I am personally on the side of Israel in that ongoing conflict. I have friends from IDF who I trust. Israel shows great restraint much of the time. Unfortunately, the fact is that the enemies of Israel in that region don’t really want peace, they want Israel to not exist…which is a non-starter.
However, having said that…there are folks who get caught in the proverbial crossfire and folks who are used like pawns by the richer more powerful Muslims who use the Palestinians as a proxy and pawn in their war on Israel. As such, the Palestinians are often in rough shape and helping them with food and medical aid is something that even Israel does (which tells of Israel’s good morality).
Kayla is a-political. She is like a Mother Teresa. She was there to help people in need not to play politics. I support Israel but also support humanitarians like Kayla.
That detailed report out about Tony Jones is very damning. It establishes some Core Issues that can’t and shouldn’t be ignored.
I feel bad for Julie and the kids. What a terrible situation. I know what it’s like to deal with a bad pastor where everyone in the church believes the Pastor and requires Perfect Victims.
Even William McCafferty commented on this blog…and he is a friend and supporter of Bob Grenier despite the evidence and many testimonies against Bob. It illustrates the dynamic that the abused like Julie are up against in the church.
The Tony Jones situation hits way to close to home for me and many of my beloved ex-pastors wives to allow me to even comment except to say that I am glad these issues are finally getting some attention now despite being swept under the rug for decades.
I find this an odd discussion to read..given the history of prior discussions on this blog.
I think all are agreed that Christians can live out their lives and callings on this earth without some formal, official church-staff-like ministry.
And I think all are agreed we can celebrate lives lived well, grieve losses that affect us personally, and while it would always be our hope that anyone meaningful (to us or the world at large) was in Christ, the reality is that there is nobody good but God, there is none that doeth good, no not one, we all have sinned, and we all need a Savior and there is only one Name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
Any attempt to prove somehow that a famous person dying tragically either was a Christian or was not a Christian seems odd to me. For BOTH sides making such an effort. Wilberforce was a believer. Others worked shoulder to shoulder with Wilberforce that were not. It happens.
This reminds me of the flip side of the same coin as the Steve Jobs thread on this blog.
I can only imagine the debates online when Bono dies one day…
“I can only imagine the debates online when Bono dies one day…”
You Gotta Serve Somebody Dread
Why wait till Bono dies?
People think he’s not Christian even now while he’s alive. He thinks, sings and speaks otherwise. They are still not convinced because they do not recognize Christ in Him because he looks different than Christ in them.
They are unable to see more than one facet in the person of Jesus, so they deny Him in another.
Pretty much an old everyday story for many labeled “heretic” and told they are not “Christian enough” or the “right” kind of Christian.
Dylan will remain forever young and Bono will hang out where the streets have no names.
You Got Served, Buddy Fil
Well, fortunately the evangelical mobs don’t get to make the decisions on who goes to hell and who doesn’t…or there’d be like 8 people in heaven.
I am pretty sure there is no evangelical mob on this blog… and certainly not a monolithic voice
I am also pretty sure that no one denies the compassion of Jesus, the mandate to serve the poor in scripture or the fact that justice is in the Gospel.
None of that means a person is “in Christ” because of their good deeds.
A word search yielded exactly ONE reference to “heretic”
There is however some caricaturing going on
BD, You addressing that to me?
I never said anything about a evangelical mob, monolithical voice or anything like that, so I assume not.
I was simply addressing Steve’s post about Bono who has been called heretic and much more because he doesn’t play the game the way others want him too. That’s really not even debatable, just look around other sites on the Internet.
Only partly … should have specified.
London, see #79
Covered, can’t see numbers on my phone.
London, I know far more who would trumpet Bono’s Christianity loudly (remember his article that went viral all over facebook)…but the point is why is there so much intensity to prove he is or he is not among people who don’t know anything about the guy personally. And for it then to be a new battle to make arguments nobody can possibly prove.
Like I said, I just don’t get it. I sure watched it firsthand as the religious right blasted Clinton, then the religious left blasted Bush…each side saying their enemy was a phony hypocrite and not a real Christian (insert reason…)
Anymore, I just let a singer be a singer. A comedian a comedian. An athlete an athlete. A businessman a businessman. A duck hunter a duck hunter. A politician a politician.
And an international aid worker an international aide worker.
And if those people also are faithful to their spouses. Use their influence to serve others and so forth. All the better.
If they aren’t showing up at our church, sitting under the leadership, seeking baptism, marriage, communion, wishing to serve….it is not really an issue to me. Obviously I want all to be saved…but there is only one gospel and one Savior.
Oh aren’t we a funny group. We attribute Christianity to those who make no such claim for themselves.
Steve, I honestly have no idea why there’s so much intensity to prove who is and who isn’t a christian. It just seems to be something that people like to do cause there’s nothing going wrong in the world that needs fixing, no one hungry that needs a meal, no one that needs visiting, or any other need that a person can spend their time on instead….
I don’t know anything about Kayla or Tony but why are these stories contrasted like this? Did Kayla go to Tony’s church?
So can we all admit that when we embrace anything beyond biblical 1 man 1 woman marriage, like RHE and Tony Jones have, that all kinds of evil disorder results?
jtk – I affirm! 🙂
MLD, #86. I do.
Here’s a mantra I’ve heard from those in the church who’ve gotten divorced over another woman (or man), “God wants me to be happy!”
Why is it we always forget the “Law of unintended consequences” will bite us on the rear end?
But I guess I’m a legalist, according to some.
Man my rear hurts often.
Dread said, “I am pretty sure there is no evangelical mob on this blog… and certainly not a monolithic voice”
Wasn’t directed at you or the PP family here, it was in the context of all the terrible comments Anne was referring to about Kayla on other blogs…her comments further up the thread.
It was also, partly, in reference to the general opinion “out there” of guys like Bono not being a “true Christian”…I’ve read many many many opinions elsewhere that have cast Bono into hell already.
Personally, if there is such a literal place as hell…and if Bono is there…then the vast majority of us are toast.
Didn’t mean to insult the family here. I don’t think you guys are a “mob” at all. A motley crew and a bunch of fellow pirates…but not a mob 🙂
They should have run the ball….
Alex, I think your comments in this thread have been very good.
I also like what Erunner said earlier in number 47.
Martin Luther’s Disciple
February 12, 2015
Oh aren’t we a funny group. We attribute Christianity to those who make no such claim for themselves.
Possibly the most cogent statement made on this comments from the post.
Don’t care if she was or not.
“Go and do thou likewise”-jesus
No. Tony Jones didn’t become a dishonest, adulterous, abusive narcissist because of his support for gay marriage.
Why do people call evil good and good evil? Something causes it.
Why do people call bitter sweet and sweet bitter? Something deceives them.
Why do people call dark light and light dark? Something confuses them.
The result of my post will be those who wonder by what right anyone calls something good or bad. Just who do we think we are. So let me clear the air… I have no illusions about my goodness.. none. But I never thought I would live to see such a loss of moral compass and clarity. We have become as gods knowing good and evil but not being able to tell the difference.
Neo, could you explain or illustrate your perspective? I’d post the comment # but i’m on my phone.
You don’t like by guilt by association analogy?
In my experience ministering to gay people, their initiation involved preadolescent gay sexual behavior, usually nonconsensual.
One step away from strict sexual holiness (sins of comission or coerced) leads to tremendous disorder and confusion.
So RHE can keep her progay apologetics.
And I’ll keep up my “bigotry.”
“In my experience ministering to gay people, their initiation involved preadolescent gay sexual behavior, usually nonconsensual.”
This is the fact that pro-gay groups do not want to admit.
Neither does anyone want to admit that experimentation with volitional gay acts has actual biochemical consequences that become determinative in people’s behavior. We are headed into an era of such virulent gay-evangelicalism (recruitment into gay practice) that will change cultures for generations.
Gay sex is not neutral … sadly the root of it may be
jtk is firing on all cylinders this morning.
The problem is that a good amount of the church (and several here on the PP) have put “nice” above truth. It is better to be “nice” than to articulate what you believe. It is better that you be “nice” to people than to be truthful with people.
Jesus was never called “nice”. People think when Jesus said to luv he meant be “nice” to each other – this is far from the truth. Jesus was not even “nice” to his mother and in return she thought he was a fruitcake.
The Tony Jones’ of the world on the emergent side and the Andy Stanleys in the seeker camp are just satanic tools to distract the church … RHE is becoming the high priestess for such arrivals.
Some of us think that there’s something to be said about telling the truth in love…
This is getting fun.
Michael, I do too – but many (and in ever growing numbers) do not think the 2 are compatible and have decided that being nice is enough.
Rob Bell was not far off if he had actually accused the church with his book title “Love Wins” – because that is the status of today’s church.
Sadly, speaking the truth in love is hate speech to some other folks.
To finish my thought the sad fact is that sexual abuse lies at the heart of much sexual dysfunction
Much sexual abuse is done by men in authority over young people, men who are often religious…
Sexual abuse leads to dysfunction which leads to compassionate voices wanting to normalize whatever someone calls “normal for them”
We have a pretty big mess going
If you think the church is becoming too nice, you’ve obviously missed how the conservative, pro Israel camp is responding to the Kayla Muellers death.
The filth started in their little holy huddles and now it’s spreading all over social media.
She is being condemned to the pit because her political and eschatological views didn’t conform.
There’s nothing nice about any of it.
OK now I have to read Kayla’s story…
There are some in the family that make hell an attractive option…
“…you’ve obviously missed how the conservative, pro Israel camp is responding to the Kayla Muellers death.”
Who pays attention to them???? – they represent probably less that 5% of world Christianity.
I will also say that in all my “online life” and even TV, I have not read a single comment about about the young ladies religion … except here. There has not been a single mention on my facebook or in my email.
I’m glad that no one was able to sit in judgement about my eternal destiny, religious and political “correctness” when I was a 26 year old kid.
I’m old enough now that I don’t give a rats ass what they think.
They represent the majority in American Christianity…and they get tons of attention.
I still have seen nothing negative towards Kayla at all. I haven’t gone out looking for it, but I haven’t seen it.
If we argue about “the gays”, guess how many minds will be changed. I’m out, as I need to get busy telling my gay loving Christian friends that they will soon become lying, adulterous, abusive, narcissists.
After 36+ years together, I’m pretty sure the devil is about to use the gateway drug of supporting same sex monogamy to cause me to start whacking my wife and looking for her replacement. yeah…
Yesterday one had to look for it.
Today, thanks to the prophecy wonks and the work of some non denominational denomination pastors…it’s all over my Facebook.
I refuse to link to any of it.
“…and they get tons of attention.”
From who? Why do you pay attention?
Ahh, there’s the hitch. I have none of those guys on my facebook.
I was just googling the story, and I am through 4 pages with no negative stories at all. On the fourth page, there is a story trying to figure out her religious background, but stays pretty vague, and certainly isn’t condemning in any way.
I think most – 99% – feel that it is a tragedy that an American was killed.
I will admit that I do pay just enough attention to evangelical, pro Israel, prophecy dispies for the sole purpose of mocking them. 😉
I am among pro-Israel prophecy dispies all the time. None of them have said anything of the sort.
I pay attention because that is the religion of my area.
They own Southern Oregon….most of rural Oregon outside of Portland for that matter.
But you know, look at all the same folks who are probably upset online about the new movie “50 shades”. i don’t know what the issue might be – the best I can figure out it is a police movie… in a trailer I saw that the guy had the lady in handcuffs. Isn’t law & order in vogue any longer?
Don’t you have a crazy governor who you should be paying attention to? 🙂
I have a lot of radical “Pro Israel” friends on FB, and not one has mentioned anything but sympathy and admiration for Kayla.
I have deleted all the evil people from facebook. Life is too short to deal with that garbage.
(Evil does not equal pro-Israel, just to clarify)
Hmm, Makes me wonder if news feeds & Google provide different results to states based on demographics. Just seems strange you & I had different experiences compared to other posters here. I agree Nonnie that the reactions from my friends in your tribe haven’t been negative at all.
Michael, I offer this to give you relief from the crazy Oregon dispie world
May I offer – Faith Lutheran /church – Rogue River
Small but powerful, Pastor Evan Goeglein co hosts one of the larger Lutheran Podcasts – Table Talk Radio
They started up over 6 years ago when Issues etc got kicked off the air.
Fight the Dispies – support your local Lutheran Church!!! 😉
Michael – I might have 2 emails stuck for links … but I don’t see the in moderation warning. publish only one – they are similar.
Tony Jones in the emergent camp and Don Stewart in the CC camp…Both drop their old wives and get trophy wives.
I guess the difference is that DS didn’t have to gaslight his (ex) wife to continue to be relevant and remain a paid speaker in his camp.
I just don’t understand how people can continue to listen to these guys.
Stewart has more stuff under the rug as well…that most of the big names are quite aware of.
There was much speculation that he was going to be out on his hindquarters earlier this year…I’m not sure why that hasn’t happened.
This is the first I knew there were any Lutherans in that area.
That…is a very odd place to live.
I drive through quickly… 🙂
Dread, I’ve always been stumped by that issue.
Was my brother “made” gay from non-consensual sexual abuse or was he born gay and then preyed upon for exhibiting a more effeminate manner?
I really don’t know for sure. I know he’s gay, I don’t understand for sure how he got that way.
Science doesn’t know either.
We know for fact that about 3% of the human species is gay, but there is no “gay gene” that science has found…no definitive proof that it isn’t learned behavior similar to what you stated earlier in the thread.
However, my brother was more effeminate than the rest of us, early on.
Nonnie said, “Tony Jones in the emergent camp and Don Stewart in the CC camp…Both drop their old wives and get trophy wives.
I guess the difference is that DS didn’t have to gaslight his (ex) wife to continue to be relevant and remain a paid speaker in his camp.
I just don’t understand how people can continue to listen to these guys.”
Very very true.
Calvary Chapel should be ashamed of itself for continuing to support and endorse Don Stewart…but they almost seem to revel in their support of his “not god’s definition of marriage”…yet they hate the gays getting married…
I’m ashamed of him. I think he’s a disgrace and shouldn’t be given a platform until he repents and returns to his first wife…you know, “Marriage is between one man and ONE woman” and all that stuff…
I remember hearing James Dobson, back in the early 80’s, saying something like, “In all my studies, literature, and my practice, I have never known of one homosexual that was not molested or “seduced” as a young child.”
Is that along the same lines as what you were saying, Babs??
(I know that this might sound like “hate speech” to some, but I certainly do not mean it as such. )
Our governor just resigned…and will be replaced by the nations first openly bi-sexual governor.
Welcome to Oregon. 🙂
“Our governor just resigned…and will be replaced by the nations first openly bi-sexual governor.”
Well, now both sexes can be screwed by the govt. in your state 🙂
Question is, will he be prosecuted?
He’s a crook…
Reminds me of the kid who told his dad he plans to go into organised crime, the father replied, “Government or private sector?”
I have no problem believing that some people are born with distinct homosexual tendencies.
The Fall messed up everything about us…
From a scientific perspective…Homosexuality is certainly not ‘normative’ and if Evolution is correct….it goes against Evolution as the survival of the species kind of depends on heterosexual mating….
If every human becomes gay…the species is doomed.
“If every human becomes gay…the species is doomed.”
May not be a bad option. Maintaining our species doesn’t seem to offer any advantages.
That line of reasoning has resonated with some atheists/humanists whose god is essentially science and reason.
When you look at the issue as one of being moral/religious, they aren’t open to discussion about homosexuality maybe being “not a good idea”…when you approach it from Biology and Evolution…well then it makes more sense to them that homosexuality isn’t normative and probably goes against the design of nature and evolution…as heterosexual mating is essential to the survival of the species.
…you’ll see that rationale in an Eric Metaxas article in less than a year.
Imitation Is The Highest Form Of Flattery Alex
Atheist types are usually more worried about over-population. I think they are fine with people who don’t reproduce.
Josh, LOL, well most of them think Global Warming is real and that we’re all doomed very soon…kinda similar to the End Times crowd…so it’s really more of a socio-political-religious-moral issue.
Atheists don’t see it as “immoral”…but many do have to acknowledge the fact that it is certainly not the intent of nature and evolution and biology…the male anus and rectum serve no biological reproductive function…nor does gays falling in love with the same sex.
Atheists who rely heavily on science and reason would view human sexuality as predominantly a function of biology similar to other animal species…that being that the primary reason for human sexuality is to reproduce. It’s that angle that resonates with the Atheists regarding homosexuality being “not normative” and not a good idea if it took hold in large numbers in the human species.
I’ve had those conversations multiple times, and that is not the atheist line. They point out that homosexuality does occur in other species, and thus it is natural and scientific. Every time that’s what they say.
Some say that, many have to acknowledge that the evolutionary design of human sexuality is to progenerate the species and that the human sexual organs and human sexuality serve a specific biological and evolutionary purpose.
I have probably had the discussion with 100 different people and it always, 100%, has gone into pointing at some other animal that has homosexual relationships. Every time. This knowledge is usually accompanied by percentages within those species and some species that have monogamous homosexual relationships. It’s like a page from the atheist handbook.
Nevertheless, Tony seems to be a scumbag. I think it best for all involved parties that the marriage is over. Should Tony be in ministry? He never has been, in my opinion.
Kayla seemed like a idealistic young woman. Shame that she was killed so young. I admire her courage for following her beliefs, even though I don’t know exactly what those beliefs were.
That position is changing, I haven’t heard that one trotted out in awhile as that isn’t the issue and more of a Red Herring and has nothing to do with the Proposition: Heterosexuality is Normative and the Intent of Evolutionary Biology
That other argument is merely, “Oh look, a few male monkeys have sex with each other too!…which doesn’t disprove the Thesis above…
I have a whole lot of “conservative, pro-Israel” facebook friends who actively post “conservative, pro-Israel” stuff on facebook.
Not one of them has posted a negative word on her death in the last couple of days that I have seen.
We really need to get past indicting beliefs and all those who might hold them with individual internet jerks. Why one would keep that exposure is beyond me…and while I know facebook is in your face if you continue to keep friends unblocked, I certainly can’t grasp actively seeking it out on other websites as was expressed by someone else up above.
I remember going to the Democratic Underground, Move-On.org and the Huffington Post and reading all the hurrahs and death wishes when Dick Cheney was ill….then it hit me. Why am I doing this???
Steve, what about Don Stewart? Can we lump Calvary Chapel together with that one? 😉
Are you OK with Don having a big platform in CC?
“I remember going to the Democratic Underground, Move-On.org and the Huffington Post and reading all the hurrahs and death wishes when Dick Cheney was ill….then it hit me. Why am I doing this???”
Yes, the big Liberal double-standard.
They accuse Republicans of “hating” Obama…yet I never saw more vitriol and true hatred and even regular death threats and saying the president should be executed for war crimes etc than with George W. Bush.
I try to keep a finger on the pulse of the whole church.
I follow Orthodox and Catholic sites as well as Reformed and evangelical.
Some of the largest prophecy sites have written scathing articles about this woman.
I will continue to refuse to link to them…if people want to believe they don’t exist it’s fine with me.
Michael, I’ve seen it, what Anne said is going on in many conservative circles and it’s wrong. I’ve stepped in and commented wherever I see it.
To be fair, George W. was a total mess.
I don’t comment because it would be the same two words over and over again….
I had to use google to find some of the articles you are referring to, Michael. I am glad to say that none of my friends have cited or referred to those vile articles.
I would not have been aware of them, except for your article. The hatred in some of the articles was shocking.
One of those screeds was read over 650 radio stations and a podcast.
“Christian” radio stations…
I guess my George W. comment was too obvious in its trolling 🙂
Hey Alex, you won’t remember me but I dialogued with you a few times here several years ago back when you were “Believe”. Thought you had some interesting insights. I think you made some insightful ones today regarding homosexuality and I see you have a brother in the lifestyle. I wrote an article on this subject that i’d love to get your feedback on if you get a chance. It’s at http://www.laughandlift.com/personalarticles/gaymarriagechurch.html
Praying for your continued healing of the past, blessings to you, chris
PH. One example would be CS Lewis’ “Tash”. Maybe you remember, He was Aslan but called by another name. Drawing it any further than that is beyond my pay grade and I’m not the ultimate Judge. 🙂
…interesting verse. Peter speaking to the Gentiles, “I understand that God shows no partiality. but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him”. Acts 10:24.
Thanks Neo, I was legitimately interested in how u fleshed out your viewpoint. Good discussion fodder.
BTW, how are you feeling these days?
As far as my take on the above, that’s as far as I can go these days. As with anything, subject to repentance.
As far as my health, very optimistic. Thank you, PH.
We used to talk about such things in my Soteriology class in Bible college. Grateful for a prof that let us wrestle with questions and such.
“anyone who fears Him and does what is right ”
‘Fears him’ = repents
‘does what is right’ = believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and the promises won for us on the cross.
I agree, MLD. But that is our interpretation.
Bottom line for me, as far as the original post goes, I appreciate Michael’s juxtaposition between the actions/lifestyle of a person who considers himself to be a Christian leader who is worthy of influencing others and the lifestyle of a woman who seemed to take such pleasure in serving the neediest.
Watch out with the “wrestling” around MLD. He doesn’t wrestle it struggle.