Loose Ends

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  1. London says:

    what the heck…might as well be FIRST here too.

  2. ( |o )====::: says:

    Ok, Michael,
    When was that song on the charts & who was the artist? 🙂

  3. Nomans says:

    Excellent post by Stetzer on Challies.com today.
    Fitting for this conversation.

    http://www.challies.com/guest-bloggers/the-problem-with-pastor-as-rock-star

  4. Michael says:

    LLoyd Price….about ’57?

  5. Michael says:

    “A community “won” to a single voice is not won to community, but to spectatorship.”

    “An approval-addicted pastor develops the split personality of an insecure bully. Paranoid that their reputation might be damaged by incompetency in others, the pastor resorts to pushing people around. Rock star pastors are addicted to measuring success by whether or not they get their way. Their measure of success becomes about meeting their personal needs, not submission to the mission of God. A rock star pastor is fanatical about approval, but not God’s. ”

    From Nomans link…home run, Stetzer.

  6. Another Voice says:

    A couple Christian politicos
    ————————————
    Lanny Davis is as much a political Democrat hack as anyone else, and anyone who paid attention in the 90s remembers this.

    And unless he was just born again, he is Jewish.

    He is a Clinton loyalist, and since for the 1st time since 1992 (actually even before counting Arkansas) there is not a Clinton serving or running for elected office, out comes this civility pledge? In a year when even Obama’s press secretary Sunday admits the GOP might gain 50+ seats to take back the House.

    Now, my comments can be dismissed as coming from the right wing or whatever, but I have seen the man in countless hours of interviews over the last 2 decades. He is NOT a civil politician.

    Many candidates agree beforehand not to run negative ads against each other – but signing this political Manhattan Declaration is something else. I would not want to get into alliance with Lanny Davis on anything

  7. papias says:

    nomans – good link.

    “Most rock star pastors don’t mean to not preach God’s glory. But they are nevertheless unintentionally preaching their own. For a pastor, being “out front” is a necessity that can become a danger. Their winsomeness wins over seekers, their way with words woos the weekly attendees. Charisma is an intangible gift but deceives one’s own heart.

    Once when preaching, cheering broke out for John Chrysostom. He responded:

    “You praise what I have said, and receive my exhortation with tumults of applause; but show your approbation by obedience; that is the only praise I seek.”

  8. Michael says:

    AV,

    Perhaps he’s come to a place of regret for former misdeeds…no offense, but that comment exemplifies why I have almost completely disavowed politics.

    Of course, I signed the Manhattan Declaration too…

  9. ( |o )====::: says:

    ” “Caner’s failings are the failings of the whole church and that every Christian must shoulder a portion of the blame” for the Charles Finney-inspired emphasis on pastor personalities.

    “While Caner’s misstatements have become unusually public, they are hardly unique to him,” said Chantry. The bigger problem is that “it fails to appear scandalous to Christians who have become comfortable with the idea that preachers regularly tell fibs in the pulpit.”

    Sheesh! EVERY CHRISTIAN MUST SHOULDER A PORTION OF THE BLAME??? It’s only those who worship the xtiam personalities who have the problem. The rest of us long ago learned that we’re to check out everything our so-called “leaders” tell us and be willing to call them on it privately then publicly if they obfuscate. Sure, we then get throttled and told “touch not God’s anointed” and get shunned, end up having to blog to have any voice at all because few, if any, are willing to question, let alone vote with our feet.

    …stepping away for some strong coffee before I post something offensive, oh wait… 😉

  10. ( |o )====::: says:

    Michael,
    #4… score!

  11. ( |o )====::: says:

    btw, BP’s made a lot of progress. now the leak has a nifty rectangular case with a finely designed cylindrical port to spew thru.

    If the containment system’s pressure doesn’t create a hazardous condition for the workers at the site they might be able to cap the darn thing!

  12. Michael says:

    G man…you’re supposed to be celebrating!

  13. Another Voice says:

    No offense taken Michael..and now, no offense to you….but because you have almost totally disavowed politics, you may not know what you are talking about. You already mistakenly called the guy a Christian for starters.

    I actually watched and listened to Davis with my own eyes and ears promote this thing at least a week or so ago. With all due respect, did you? It was on Fox so my guess is not.

    I say that because if the man was repentant about his past political deeds, seems like it would have been a good time and place to say so. It was lacking, and needless to say I was woefully unimpressed.

    I have strong political views that presently are not represented by ANY party and so I am no Republican hack. But I follow the nonsense pretty closely. I try to do so without sinning and becoming addicted to hate as you wrote on yesterday.

    If you can show anywhere that Lanny Davis is expressing regret for his activity during the Clinton years and since…I will retract my words. Otherwise, I will not assume suddenly pure motives to a guy that for 20 years has had a political agenda on everything.

    One other point. Lanny is a Democrat, but a Clinton friend first and foremost. He worked hard against Obama and if the buzz is correct sees a chance at Hillary giving it one more chance by challenging him in 2012 (ala ted Kennedy vs Carter). To neglect the politics of this is a little naive.

    Your friend, AV 🙂

  14. ( |o )====::: says:

    Michael,
    Waiting for my better half to wake up, lazy bums that we are today 😉

    …a morning walk on Pacific Beach is in our near future.

  15. Michael says:

    AV,

    I defer to your wisdom on the matter…it appeared to be a bi partisan effort from the article.

    One can always hope…

  16. Lutheran says:

    AV,

    So what if Lanny Davis hasn’t retracted his past? I don’t see the Civility Project asking anyone to do so. In fact, if that were the case, there would be few politicians signing it,
    from either party.

    You seem to have the ability to attribute motives to people. Either that or you’re just extremely cynical. I say, hooray for the Republican guy who signed it. I hope there are many more who do.

    Simple question: Are you for or against the three ideals of the Civility Project?

  17. Tim says:

    Am I completely missing it with Caner? On one hand, the article states that he made false statements; on the the other hand folks are claiming he was exonerated. Which is it?

    If he knowingly & willfully lied, then it’s pretty clear he ought to be fired. If not, then he ought to stay…but the seminary has a responsibility to make their findings absolutely clear. It’s tough to have a head of an educational institution (much less, a seminary!) with a moral cloud hanging overhead.

  18. Michael says:

    Tim,

    The removed him as dean and let him continue to teach.

    He is the new Mike Warnke…but he puts butts in the seats.

  19. Tim says:

    But on the bottom line question: did he lie? Whether for a dean or a prof, either is unacceptable.

    I really dislike all the ambiguity in the article…par for the course for CT, I suppose.

  20. Michael says:

    He lied like a rug…there are stacks of documentation.

    The ambiguity is from Liberty who don’t want to discipline their most charismatic leader.

  21. Michael says:

    http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/

    He has a zillion articles on the subject…

  22. pineapple head says:

    Liberty is seriously dropping the ball on this one.

    It’s never a good thing when people have to work so hard to gloss over a leader’s sin.

    It sounds like Caner is asserting some sort of “twinkie defense.”

  23. SHW says:

    Xenia,
    Please do not go away. Develop a Teflon coating instead. I have one and though it has been scratched much and even sports a few gouges, it is still intact. 🙂

    Steve Hopkins,
    I think it is best for each of us to “learn” the many “different” opinions/teachings about salvation so that each of us may then “choose,” for himself/herself; and I think this is important because our “choices” do have eternal consequences.

    Eric,
    RE: “So had she said no, the entire old testament would have been a lie, all of Gods promises lies and God Himself the king of lies. …”

    REPLY: Since all “choosing” by mortals was “known” by God “before” God created the world and mankind, He already “knew” that Mary was going to say, “YES.”

    Em,
    I agree with MLD,
    Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Word Incarnate. His divine nature cannot now or ever be separated from His human nature; therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Son for eternity.

    Mary “believed” God when the angel told her that she would conceive a son. Her “belief” was her “consent.” Mary’s only question was, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” She did not understand “how” God would accomplish this, but she knew/believed that He would do it. (1:28-56 of Luke)

    Fred,
    Jesus has one specific Church which He personally founded upon Peter, the apostles, and the prophets with Himself as chief cornerstone. (16:18 of Matthew), (2:19-22 of Ephesians) He said to His Church (apostles and 70 disciples): “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (10:1-16 of Luke)

    Another Voice,
    Jesus is Mary’s savior. He redeemed her “before” her conception because the Word Incarnate could not possibly be conceived in a womb tainted by Adam’s sin. A “pure” womb was necessary.

    Eric,
    RE: “I know this has come up before and we are supposed to be gentle and meek when someone feminine comes in like a steamroller and tells everything we believe is bunk and they have all authority under heaven and earth, but that statement was just stupid and needed to be challenged.”

    REPLY: Since I do not speak/teach in church worship services, except to sing praise to God at the appropriate times and to respond with the appropriate responses when requested, I am not disobeying God’s command. However, when I am not in the “church assembly worship service,” I may teach if I desire to and I am encouraged to do so. 2 Timothy 1:5

    Believe,
    Adam did not need a “conscience.” He only needed to “choose” between what “God” commanded him to do and what “Eve” wanted him to do. Adam chose to honor Eve’s request rather than choosing to obey God’s command and he made this decision even though He knew that it was God who made Him.

  24. Tim says:

    “He lied like a rug…there are stacks of documentation.”

    There’s nothing ambiguous about that statement. 🙂

  25. Josh Hamrick says:

    Caner could have solved the whole problem, by saying: “Look folks, I got a little carried away. I enjoyed the spotlight. I stretched the truth. I am sorry.” I think most folks would have been happy with that, but then he rebuts with the Calvinist/ Muslim conspiracy, and well…there is video evidence of him lying for the last 9 years. Pride comes befoer the fall, I guess. Liberty has tried to play both sides, but this issue won’t die. I am sure that there are virtuous faculty at Liberty who are pushing for the integrity of their institution.

    And what in the world got into Norman Geisler?!?!

  26. Michael says:

    Josh,

    It really is that simple…repent, receive forgiveness and go on down the road.

    Geisler got embarrassed by James White and the Calvinist media a few years ago and he can’t let it go…

  27. Josh Hamrick says:

    Hmm, I’ll have to look into the Geisler / White stuff. He really is just refusing to look at this thing honestly.

  28. pineapple head says:

    Ah…it all sounds so….human!

    I’m not a big fan of White, and when it came to the whole Caner thing he seemed to become like a shark in bloody waters, but the bottom line is that there is no way that Caner just mixed up sentences. He made clear claims that were simply not true. And the sad thing, like so many who make up stories, he just didn’t need to.

  29. Michael says:

    PH,

    My take on this mess concerns why we have such trouble modeling and being repentant.

    Would we have forgiven Caner if he came completely clean or would he have been “tainted” forever?

    The best solution would have been that he confessed, repented, received a suspension then we all went back to work…

  30. Josh Hamrick says:

    Yeah, born to a mulsim father, immigrated to USA at an early age…it’s a fine story as is. In Nov. 2001 claiming that he had been trainging to do things like 9/11…wayyy tooo much.

    As far as White goes, I wonder if he realizes that he is so unlikable? He may be right about everything he says, but the consant bullying about debates and such is just unattractive. Unfortunately, much could be learned from most of his arguments if he learned to turn down the personality a bit.

  31. Josh Hamrick says:

    Michael, my bet is that had he (and its hard to say, because he didn’t) just repented straight out up front, the issue would have long ago dissappeared. As sad as it is, who hasn’t heard a preacher exaggerate their testimony? To hear one admit it, and repent, I think would be refreshing.

  32. pineapple head says:

    Totally agree, Michael. And when the ball was in Liberty’s court, they should have done just that. Suspend the guy, work with him, and restore him if the process plays out well.

    One of the marks of whether a church is too personality driven is how quick everything falls apart when said personality leaves. True equipping ministires are set up so a key leader’s departure is sad, but not devestating.

  33. Michael says:

    I’ve had to publicly repent here a few times.

    It’s not enjoyable, but the aftermath and effect on my spiritual and physical health was more than worth it.

    Repentance is a gift, not a punishment…

  34. Another Voice says:

    I just sent an apology email to Michael, and so I also apologize to the forum. Without even reading the reaction on the thread yet, my last post above was not proper treatment to our host.

    Forgive me.

    AV

  35. Believe says:

    Michael said, “Repentance is a gift, not a punishment…”

    One of the most profound things you’ve ever written.

    What is it with some of these guys? They preach confession and repentance…yet they are scared to death of it.

    Fear. Fear of losing their “position”, their “authority”…their livelihood.

    That is a terrible prison to be trapped in…

    “Ministry” isn’t more important than one’s soul…than one’s family, etc.

    …but, sadly, it often is.

  36. Em says:

    SHW, it is amazing how close we come to agreement … so close … i’d say that your view has imposed human viewpoint on the Eternal Truths and you’d say, perhaps, that mine is demonic denial … God help us all – the plea for grace and mercy is far more than a caveat declaration

    just commenting, not engaging in discussion today – just show me Jesus and i’ll praise Him with you 🙂

  37. Another Voice says:

    Jesus is Mary’s savior. He redeemed her “before” her conception because the Word Incarnate could not possibly be conceived in a womb tainted by Adam’s sin. A “pure” womb was necessary.
    ———————————————————————
    Two thoughts. First, there is no Scripture whatsoever to justify this, not to mention the problem you have with Mary somehow not needing the cross like all the rest of us. If Mary could be saved apart from the cross, why not we all.

    Second, it sounds like you are exalting the holiness of Christ, but actually you are making a Gnostic heresy. If God incarnate could not be in a “sinful” womb, and that womb had to be made “pure” – then how could God incarnate ever be around anyone else “not pure” – How could he physically touch sinners in any way, if your argument was carried through to its logical conclusion.

    This is the problem with being an apologist for Catholic tradition unsupported by Scripture. I already wrote that Mary is the most blessed woman to ever live. THAT is Scripturally based. That should be enough. However, centuries ago Rome went down a road of doctrinal error and exagerration as to Mary, and since you must continue to hold Rome as infallible, you now just posted a comment rooted in Gnostic heresy.

    It’s grieving..

  38. Michael says:

    AV,

    It’s all good…I earned being called out this time. 😉

  39. Erunner says:

    I saw the interview with Lanny Davis on FOX. They spoke about how only one person signed the civility thing but also a reason as to why so many didn’t.

    If I recall correctly they expect this upcoming round of elections to be pretty harsh. For a politician to sign the pledge would not allow them to get in the mud when their opponents go scorched earth on them!

    I say we set up a cage match with Olbermann and O’Reilly and let the winner run the country! :mrgreen:

  40. SHW says:

    I think it is reasonable, fair, and desirable for all of us to take the time to compare “different” beliefs so that we can then make our own “reasoned” choices.

    I will compare what Jesus and His apostles taught/said with what Luther taught/said. This “comparison” has nothing to do with whether Luther was approved to enter into eternal life (or not) after he died. Only God may judge Luther justly and that is as it should be. It is my hope that all of us will enter into eternal life.

    Also, there were extenuating circumstances at that period in time and I do believe that Luther acted in good faith with what he understood to be true. And, I can only compare what Luther said (and believed) at a particular moment in Luther’s lifetime since I do not know what he believed the day before he said these things or the day after he said these things.

    The Comparison:

    Jesus stated: “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (More at 19:16-19 of Matthew)

    Jesus: “And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” (More at 10:25-37 of Luke)

    Paul stated:
    “Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” (13:8-10 of Romans) Also: ( 6:9-10 of 1 Corinthians), (5:5-7 of Ephesians), (3:5-6 of Colossians), (5:19-21 of Galatians) (10:26-30 of Hebrews)

    Luther stated (using hyperbole):
    “13 No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

    Writer of Hebrews stated (using hyperbole):
    “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (More at 6:4-6 of Hebrews)

    Jesus personally founded His Church upon Peter, the apostles, and the prophets with Himself as chief cornerstone. (16:18 of Matthew), (2:19-22 of Ephesians) He said to His Church (apostles and 70 disciples): “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (10:1-16 of Luke)

    Luther states:
    “Doctor Martin Luther will have it so and says: Papist and donkey are one thing; sic volo, sic jubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. For we do not want to be pupils and followers of the Papists, but their masters and judges.” Luther continues in a bantering manner in an attempt to imitate St. Paul in the latter’s response to his opponents. “Are they doctors? So am I. Are they learned? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they theologians? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they writers of books? So am I. And I shall further boast: I can expound Psalms and Prophets; which they cannot. I can translate; which they cannot… Therefore the word allein [alone] shall remain in my New Testament, and though all pope-donkeys should get furious and foolish, they shall not get the word out.” http://www.oodegr.com/english/protestantism/louther_grafi1.htm

    Jesus states that we must do His Father’s will on earth in order to inherit eternal life and He tells us that we are judged according to our works on Judgment Day. Our works will either show our true faith in Jesus or else these works will show our lack of faith in Jesus. If we believe Jesus, then we do obey His commands. If we do not “obey” Jesus’ commands, then we are “unbelievers” (3:18-19 of Hebrews) and we will not inherit eternal life:

    “Therefore by their fruits [works] you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (7:20-25 of Matthew), (25:32-46 of Matthew) (33:12-20 of Ezekiel)

    John states: “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.” (2:3-5 of 1 John)

    James states: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (2:24 of James)

    Luther adds the word “alone” to (3:28 of Romans) in the “Lutheran” Bible:

    “Luther even added the word “alone” — allein — in Romans 3:28 before “through faith” — durch den Glauben — precisely to counter the words in James 2:24:”You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith only” — οράτε ότι εξ έργων δικαιούται άνθρωπος και ουκ εκ πίστεως μόνον.” http://www.oodegr.com/english/protestantism/louther_grafi1.htm

    It is up to each of us to decide who Jesus’ true apostles are:

    “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;” (2:2 of Revelation)

    (21:8 of Revelation) “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  41. SHW says:

    Another Voice
    RE: “First, there is no Scripture whatsoever to justify this, not to mention the problem you have with Mary somehow not needing the cross like all the rest of us. If Mary could be saved apart from the cross, why not we all.

    Second, it sounds like you are exalting the holiness of Christ, but actually you are making a Gnostic heresy. If God incarnate could not be in a “sinful” womb, and that womb had to be made “pure” – then how could God incarnate ever be around anyone else “not pure” – How could he physically touch sinners in any way, if your argument was carried through to its logical conclusion.”

    Mary needed redeeming just like all the rest of us. He redeemed her “in anticipation of” His sacrifice. Notice, He also gave His apostles His Body and Blood to eat and drink at the Last Supper “in anticipation of” His sacrifice on the cross.

    Jesus’ total DNA consists of “half” His Mother’s DNA. Her DNA had to be pure in order for that “half” of Jesus’ DNA to be pure. Touching Jesus after He was born is fine.

  42. deadmanwalking says:

    I spent most of the day yesterday with a friend i met who was in the bed next to me when I was in the hospital after my little crash, he is a devout very well taught Catholic. It was one of the best days of fellowship I’ve ever had. I mostly listened. This guy knew the scripture and was a living history book.

    One of his biggest points he made for the Catholic church was the “personality driven church” and to him it appeared that just about all of the Protestant church was personality driven and I couldn’t argue with him.

  43. SHW says:

    Em,

    RE: “SHW, it is amazing how close we come to agreement … so close … i’d say that your view has imposed human viewpoint on the Eternal Truths and you’d say, perhaps, that mine is demonic denial … God help us all – the plea for grace and mercy is far more than a caveat declaration”

    REPLY: No, I would say that you “misunderstand.” 🙂 Only God may judge us.

  44. Lutheran says:

    Erunner,

    Your post makes me really sad.

    Politics in our country has morphed into ADD Land — all anyone cares about is the next election cycle — and even that’s a long time frame! Most everything being done is purely reactive and short term in nature. No one has any vision of anything. That’s no way to build a just and fair society.

    Fear and invective seem to be the order of the day.

  45. Tim says:

    SHW –
    There is a ton of assumption & conjecture in your comments, without much Scriptural backing. To assume that Jesus redeemed Mary prior to the cross & resurrection is to read into Scripture what isn’t said. To assume that Jesus had half of Mary’s DNA goes well into the realm of imagination. Considering God formed Adam from the dust of the earth, why would God need *any* DNA from Mary whatsoever?

    We would do well to be silent where Scripture is silent. I agree with AV that Mary is the most blessed woman in history; but that’s where we need to leave it.

  46. Tim says:

    Regarding O’Reilly & Olbermann in a cage match…that might be interesting to watch, but I sure wouldn’t want either one even getting close to a position of political authority! 🙂

  47. Lutheran says:

    ‘One of his biggest points he made for the Catholic church was the “personality driven church” and to him it appeared that just about all of the Protestant church was personality driven and I couldn’t argue with him.’

    DMW,

    That’s a rash, blue sky generalization.

    Name me one ‘personality’ among my 6,000 or so Missouri Synod pastors. You’d be hard pressed to find any. Same is true for Anglicans and other mainline Protestant churches. It’s mainly true in low church Protestantism where they often lack church order, a liturgy and the sacraments.

  48. Another Voice says:

    The personality-driven problem in the Church is fair to mention, but I would agree with Lutheran it is far too broad to state as of all Protestantism.

    I know this, the only personality in all of Christendom that actually makes the evening news just for getting on a plane and going to another country is the Pope.

    The only church that makes the news simply for the process of finding its next leader/personality is the one at the Vatican.

  49. Tim says:

    AV –
    Excellent point.

    Remind me not to engage in a debate with you. 🙂

  50. Lutheran says:

    AV,

    I think that in the past in American Protestantism, those who had a ‘personality’ had one because they were saying something worthwhile. Jonathan Edwards comes to mind.

    I would date the modern personality driven focus to the 80s, when you started to have the Christian TV shows and media. You could also argue that the seeds were there 3 decades before that, with the rise of nondenominational groups like YFC. You could argue that YFC and Billy Graham started the whole thing in the modern era, but the revivalists planted the seeds and preceded him, such as Billy Sunday, Moody and even Finney, with his ‘new methods’. Those methods were very man-centered and changed the religious landscape in the US.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    As usual you are not being fair when you put Luther up against the verses of Jesus and Paul. You take Luther’s statements out of their context and make it sound as if Luther’s statements are a reply or commentary on those words. Luther, in most of his writings is addressing the failed and erroneous interpretation of scriptures by the Pope. The Papists had come up with a totally different Christianity than that stated in the scriptures and of the early church. That was Luther’s battle. For you to come along post Vatican II and apply today’s RCC understanding is just rude on your part. Go back to the Middle Ages Catholic Church, read for yourself the papal proclamations and defend them. You will hang you head in shame and probably agree with everything Luther said.

    Although you throw in a disclaimer, you go right ahead with your project.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    Since you seem to rest your eternal future on your own works “Jesus states that we must do His Father’s will on earth in order to inherit eternal life and He tells us that we are judged according to our works on Judgment Day.” I must ask this question in light of the standard for proper ‘works’ accomplishment is perfection (Matt 5:48) – “How ya doin’ on this?”

  53. Lutheran says:

    MLD,

    You mean, to paraphrase a certain female ex-VP candidate,

    “How’s that actin’perfect-Judgment Day-works-righteousness stuff workin’ for ya”?

    🙂

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Geraldine Ferraro said that? 🙂

  55. deadmanwalking says:

    Lutheran — I didn’t say that, I was just sharing what it looks like to a very well learned Catholic believer. And I can’t deny the personality identification that each church takes to themselves. CC is totally personality driven — but you are called a Lutheran — so Luther is the person whose name you identify your theology with. Or Calvin — or the list is endless

    I see the difference between you and say a typical CC. But to a RC it all looks the same.

  56. Lutheran says:

    MLD,

    🙂 🙂

  57. Lutheran says:

    DMW,

    Got it.

    But we’re not all the same.

    That’s my point.

    The devil, as they say, is in the details.

  58. SHW says:

    Tim,
    RE: To assume that Jesus had half of Mary’s DNA goes well into the realm of imagination. Considering God formed Adam from the dust of the earth, why would God need *any* DNA from Mary whatsoever?”

    REPLY: God does not “need” anything; however, since Jesus was to be born of the House of David of the Tribe of Judah in order to “literally” be its everlasting King, then He has to be “literally” of that lineage. Mary “conceived” Jesus. Matthew 1:20 She was not merely an incubator/surrogate mother. To “conceive,” a child, a mother’s own DNA is necessary.

  59. Em says:

    Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    note, the man said what must ** I *** do

    Mat 19:17 And he [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    note, Jesus implies quite a bit when he nails him with “why do you call ** me ** good?” and then says to him, if you want to be good enough on your own … well … keep the commandments!

    Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    still self righteous and self justifying the kid says to Jesus, oh, I’ve done all those things, but he still (perhaps he doesn’t “feel” good?) asks what more can ** I ** do?
    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

    Jesus is not giving him instructions on how to be saved, He’s showing the young man that he can’t do it – period.

    His point is that the kid was self justifying or trying to do so – Jesus wasn’t commanding him to keep the commandments … He was leading him to see that he couldn’t …

    what SHW is being spared here is the above, but why bother – to every point she thinks she’s made, she’s just a tad off- just know that the disagreements are not mindless, knee-jerk prejudices against Rome or another viewpoint…

  60. SHW says:

    MLD: “The Papists had come up with a totally different Christianity than that stated in the scriptures and of the early church. That was Luther’s battle. For you to come along post Vatican II and apply today’s RCC understanding is just rude on your part. Go back to the Middle Ages Catholic Church, read for yourself the papal proclamations and defend them. You will hang you head in shame and probably agree with everything Luther said.

    Although you throw in a disclaimer, you go right ahead with your project.”

    REPLY: This is “your” own understanding of the Catholic Church’s “Christianity” in that particular time period and this is also “your” understanding of Luther’s “intent” regarding his comments concerning the Catholic Church.

    However, I think Luther spoke his own mind very clearly and so I have a different understanding of his words and intent concerning the pope and the Catholic Church.

    By the way, I got those specific quotes of Luther from an Orthodox website, but his quotes are widely available online on many Protestant sites also.

  61. SHW says:

    MLD: “Since you seem to rest your eternal future on your own works “Jesus states that we must do His Father’s will on earth in order to inherit eternal life and He tells us that we are judged according to our works on Judgment Day.” I must ask this question in light of the standard for proper ‘works’ accomplishment is perfection (Matt 5:48) – “How ya doin’ on this?”

    REPLY: I am obeying His commandments. This is what He commanded that I must do in order to inherit eternal life. His Holy Spirit, who is abiding in me, Acts 5:32 is leading me because I am choosing to obey His commandments. Since I am obeying Him, He continues to abide within me (my heart and soul) and He continues the purification process.

    (3:3 of 1 John) “And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

    (1:22-23 of 1 Peter) “Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,”

    (1:29 of Colossians) “To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.”

    (5:3 of 1 John) “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

  62. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    Quotes as a stane alone from a web site are not very reliable to context and are usually used to support someones biased opinions. Perhaps you should do some study in the primary documents instead of spamming quotes from other web sites.

    The RCC is still left as an organization trying to spread a gospel that has no gospel within it. At best, Catholics are left with this paraphrase of Christ “Shape up, get it right and perhaps you will make it into my heaven.” I think that it is telling that this is the Catholic position and why they allowed people to buy their way in. It is also why the Catholic Church no longer requires that people believe in the person and works of Jesus Christ to be saved.

  63. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    “Since I am obeying Him, He continues to abide within me (my heart and soul) and He continues the purification process. ”

    WOW! you must be the only Catholic who doesn’t need to go to confession. 🙂

  64. Michael says:

    “I am obeying His commandments.”

    Like hell.

    You either don’t understand sin or you are a compulsive liar…or you are completely deluded.

    The standard is perfect obedience to every commandment.

    I’m annoyed now…

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “The standard is perfect obedience to every commandment.” Not only is it perfect obedience to the actual command, but also perfect obedience in the motive for keeping the command.

  66. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Thank you…you are of course, correct.

  67. SHW says:

    Em,
    RE: “Jesus is not giving him instructions on how to be saved, He’s showing the young man that he can’t do it – period………what SHW is being spared here is the above, but why bother – to every point she thinks she’s made, she’s just a tad off- just know that the disagreements are not mindless, knee-jerk prejudices against Rome or another viewpoint…”

    REPLY: 🙂

    Jesus did not dispute with the man over whether or not he was keeping these “specific” commandments. Jesus “knew” that the man was keeping these specific commandments.

    This man was trying to pat himself on the back and impress Jesus for keeping/obeying these specific commandments. Jesus was not impressed by his self-congratulating “narrow” attitude.

    Jesus then tested him to see if he would obey the “whole” law which is to love God more than himself and his possessions and to love his neighbor as himself. The man failed this most important test.

    (10:27 of Luke) “……‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.”

    This man preferred his wealth and possessions more than he preferred to follow Jesus/God.

    Many rich people prefer to hold on to their wealth and use it for themselves rather than to use it to help with their poor neighbors’ needs and this is why it is difficult for a rich man to enter into heaven. Most rich people fail this test.

    (3:9-11 of Luke) “And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
    10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”
    11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”

    (12:13-21 of Luke) “Then one from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
    14 But He said to him, “Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?” 15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
    16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’
    21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”

    (13:22-28 of Luke) “And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
    And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.”

    (6:9 of 1 Timothy) “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.”

    “Works/fruits” do matter. “Faith working through love” (5:6 of Galatians) produces “good fruits/works.”

    (2:20 of James) “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

    “Dead faith” (faith that does not produce good works) does not save you.

  68. SHW says:

    Michael,

    RE: “Like hell. You either don’t understand sin or you are a compulsive liar…or you are completely deluded.”

    REPLY: I am not breaking the commandments that will cause the Holy Spirit to stop abiding within my soul/temple (such as adultery). I am not defiling my temple with this type of grievous sin and therefore the Holy Spirit continues to abide in me. (3:16-18 of 1 Corinthians), (6:15-19 of 1 Corinthians) I am also not adoring false gods. (5:19-21 of Galatians)

    As long as the Holy Spirit is abiding in me, I am justified. I will inherit eternal life when I die if He is abiding in me at the time of my death and this is because it is only His presence within my soul at the time of my death which guarantees me eternal life. He is sanctifying grace and it is His grace alone within my soul/temple at the time of my death which saves me.

  69. Michael says:

    SHW,

    The Bible clearly states that if you break any of the Law you are guilty of all the Law.

    “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
    (James 2:10 ESV)

    Any disobedience is total disobedience…

  70. Em says:

    Keep the commandments? Even if you could, it is not God’s plan for our justification before a Holly God. That is so important to come to terms with. Just as important as coming to terms with not keeping them.

    Keeping them mindlessly, without score-keeping out of a pure love for the Savior would be a wonderful thing, a wonderful gift of love to Him… but something tells me, if one did so, you wouldn’t even notice that you were doing it… wish I loved Christ with that intensity – but I’m still reveling in the wonder, the sufficiency, the genius, the price of obedience that He paid to fulfill the plan of redemption… worship Him

    i’m tired – guess i’ll pray

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    I think that you totally miss the point of the Luke 10 passage about the man in question. The possessions were not his roadblock to salvation. Look at his initial question “What shall I do to inherit eternal life.” Luke 10:25 ESV)
    1.) What shall I DO? – he is looking for a salvation plan that does not involve Jesus. He wants to do it himself.
    2.) What shall I DO to inherit – what is there for anyone to do to inherit something? Nothing, it is a gift left to you by someone who chooses you. This man wants to sidestep the way of Jesus.

    I think that if the man had returned saying “OK Jesus, I sold everything and gave the money to the poor” that Jesus would have given him another task and another task and have continued to give this man tasks to do until the man said “uncle, I can’t do it myself.”

    Is it your position that a person can reject the gift of God of free salvation and just present their own good works?

  72. SHW says:

    MLD: ““The standard is perfect obedience to every commandment.” Not only is it perfect obedience to the actual command, but also perfect obedience in the motive for keeping the command.”

    REPLY: (13:24 of Luke) “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

    “Strive” (do your best) does not mean perfect obedience to every commandment. Jesus said to “strive.”

    There are “degrees” of sin. Some sins deserve hell and some do not.

    (5:22 of Matthew) “But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[a] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.”

    Council as punishment vs. hellfire as punishment.

    (7:3-5 of Matthew) “And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

    “Speck” size sin vs. “plank” size sin.

  73. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    So you seem to know which are the safe sins that you can get away with.

  74. Michael says:

    “So you seem to know which are the safe sins that you can get away with.”

    I’d like that list… 😉

  75. Em says:

    SHW,”As long as the Holy Spirit is abiding in me, I am justified.”
    i see this a bit differently, too – we are spiritually dead at physical birth, the miracle of the second birth is an eternal spirit (now we are ‘trichotomous’ – body, which will die and be replaced, soul eternal and now redeemed and the new and *permanent * spirit birth which responds to the Eternal God) and that is why i’d say that i can’t lose my redemption, i can grieve the Holy Spirit (lose fellowship and guidance) and i must be ready to confess sins as they occur and humbly be restored… but when i enter into Eternity i won’t be frantically grabbing for justification to get there… it is a teaching with much honest scholarship behind it and worth searching out for consideration… but i am not a teacher…

    if you are enjoying your walk with God and can relax and trust Him at your day of dying with no last minute anxious scramble, that’s all i care about … as a little girl once told my husband – “Enjoy Christ” enjoy Him.

  76. SHW says:

    MLD: “Is it your position that a person can reject the gift of God of free salvation and just present their own good works?”

    We will agree to disagree about the rich ruler. 🙂

    No, it is not my position at all. Faith is first and foremost, but faith must produce good fruits in order to be true faith.

    “Known by their good fruits” is the standard that God uses to determine which persons have true, saving faith.

    (7:15-20 of Matthew) “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

    Jesus judges us by our “fruits” on Judgment Day. He does not judge us by our “faith” on Judgment Day. Good fruits/works “prove” good faith. (2:5-10 of Romans)

    (2:24 of James) “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

    (1:8 of 2 Thessalonians) “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

  77. Em says:

    Michael and MLD 🙂 it’ll be a long wait and you guys are too smart to buy into it anyway

    God keep

  78. deadmanwalking says:

    I for one welcome our Catholic brother. I hope we don’t drive him off. While I may not agree with some of the RCC teaching I do now several radically saved Catholics and just avoid the hot buttons.

    It was sad yesterday to see an old man who had so totally devoted himself to the Lord ask me why Protestants hated him so much.

    In that room yesterday I in a loving way asked all the hard questions such as saved by words or faith alone, he was right on the mark. His faith is Jesus is as true as any I have seen, I in love didn’t agree with his vies on Mary. But so what?

    I think the hate and mocking of Catholics that I have heard in church is wrong.

    Now I am not and never will be a Catholic. But I love my Catholic brothers. I have seen the worse side of the RCC in different countries, it grieved me to see the bondage of fear that many have of the RCC.

    My RC friend yesterday said the Church needed reform in Luther’s day, he just didn’t think it was ever right to leave the church. and as we look around today where every little difference of opinion becomes and excuse to lave and start a new movement he has a point.

  79. BrianD says:

    SHW seems to be taking all of this good-naturedly, which is not always the case with newcomers to this forum.

    I agree with DMW…let’s welcome SHW personally, even while debating and disagreeing with his ideas.

  80. SHW says:

    MLD: “So you seem to know which are the safe sins that you can get away with.”

    All sin grieves God, but not every sin causes us to forfeit eternal life. No one “gets away” with any sin.

    (12:58-59 of Luke) “When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.”

    Jesus went to preach to the souls who had repented while they were drowning in the flood and He preached to them in this prison/purgatory during His stay in the grave before His resurrection. These poor souls had been in this prison for 2000 years because the flood occurred 2000 years before Jesus’ arrival on earth.

    (3:18-20 of 1 Peter) “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

    These souls were formerly disobedient, but they repented as they were drowning and so they were saved. However, they were still repenting of their sins while Lazarus was being comforted in Abraham’s bosom (paradise, not heaven) and while the rich man was suffering in hell. (16:19-23 of Luke)

    Purgatory/prison: (3:10-15 of 1 Corinthians) “According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
    15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

    Venial Sins are purged by fire. (12:29 of Hebrews) “For our God is a consuming fire.”

  81. Michael says:

    Here’s the issue…does Christ save or do we save ourselves?

    The issue as presented by SHW is based on works not grace.

    I know Catholics and Orthodox that would deny the formulations presented here because they trust in the work of Christ for salvation, not their works.

  82. Michael says:

    “These souls were formerly disobedient, but they repented as they were drowning and so they were saved. ”

    Speculation and probably fiction…

  83. SHW says:

    Em: “As long as the Holy Spirit is abiding in me, I am justified.”
    i see this a bit differently, too – we are spiritually dead at physical birth, the miracle of the second birth is an eternal spirit (now we are ‘trichotomous’ – body, which will die and be replaced, soul eternal and now redeemed and the new and *permanent * spirit birth which responds to the Eternal God) and that is why i’d say that i can’t lose my redemption, i can grieve the Holy Spirit (lose fellowship and guidance) and i must be ready to confess sins as they occur and humbly be restored… but when i enter into Eternity i won’t be frantically grabbing for justification to get there…”

    REPLY: Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate hearing why you believe as you do.

    I believe that when I am baptized I am given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of my justification (2 Corinthians 5:5) and this guarantee (Holy Spirit) gives me hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

    In order for me to realize my “hope” and actually enter into eternal life after I die, I must be faithful to Jesus” gospel (commandments) until I die. If I keep His commandments then the Holy Spirit continues to abide in me and I am guaranteed eternal life. The Holy Spirit only resides in souls that obey Him. Acts 5:32

    (2:10 of Revelation) “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

    (1:21-24 of Colossians) “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

    I must remain faithful to Jesus’ commands until death in order to be approved to inherit eternal life.

    (1:12 of James) “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

    Who “loves” Jesus and will therefore be “approved” to receive the “crown” of eternal life?

    (14:21 of John) “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

  84. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    SHW,
    “All sin grieves God, but not every sin causes us to forfeit eternal life. No one “gets away” with any sin.”

    But you said earlier that you were in obedience and following God’s commands. That to me means that you don’t “slip” up. If you do “slip” up, then you are not in obedience and you are not following His commands.

  85. SHW says:

    DMW and BrianD,

    Thank you for your kind welcome. 🙂

    Only God can convert people and this is as it should be.

    I am here to give you an “understanding” of the Scriptures “other” than the “understanding” that you already know.

  86. Another Voice says:

    Maybe everyone should go to their respective corners and read Galatians.

    Then we could discuss such things IN THE CONTEXT of that book, such as

    “another (of a different kind) gospel which is not another (of the same kind)”
    “fallen from grace”
    “Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh?”
    “pervert the gospel of Christ”
    “offense of the cross”
    (and a few dozen more we could list)

    Ponder this. To the early church, predominantly Jewish, how were the Judaizers accepted by Paul and how are they discussed in Scripture. Were the Judaizers all a bunch of idolaters, drunks and fornicators. Or were they serious about trying to please God with their own works, and seeking to put a yoke on others?

    Now we have Gentiles, with centuries of tradition, making the same claims.

  87. SHW says:

    Michael: “Here’s the issue…does Christ save or do we save ourselves?”

    Christ saves us when we are baptized, (6:11 of 1 Corinthians) (16:16 of Mark) but He still always requires our submission and obedience to Him. (Hebrews 5:9))

    If we do not continue to submit to Him and continue to obey Him, then we will not inherit eternal life. Baptism gives us “hope” of eternal life. Hope is not a guarantee.

    (4:16 of 1 Timothy) “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” (1 Timothy 2:15)

    (4:8 of 1 Peter) “And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”

    If eternal life is “guaranteed” by Baptism as many of you claim, then there would be no need to have love “cover” a multitude of sins.

    (1:24-25 of Colossians) “I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,”

  88. Another Voice says:

    My hope is an anchor for my soul (Heb 6:19)

    And to quote the old hymn “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness”

  89. deadmanwalking says:

    SHW — I do hope you stick around, and we can move onto ground we agree on,

    isn’t it good to know that there are a lot of us “separated brothers” who don’t hate you?

    The Catholic views on sin and the Protestants views are abused on both sides. For to many Protestants they seem to have leveled all sin to a moral equivalent kind of thinking, in which they refuse to see that the consequences some sins are more serious than others. For some that seems to give a pass, but for some Catholic also take their view of sin as pass on certain sins. That is one groups can come to the false conclusion that all sin is the same, therefore since I have lusted in my heart, I might as well go ahead and commit adultery.

    Both side can point out abuses on the other side with no end to it. I do believe in the Finished Work on the Cross, that the cross plus anything is heresy, but I also see that Catholics take sin much more seriously than we Protestants tend to.

    And if you talked about the failure rate of pastors vs priest per-capita well do the math. The percentage of failures in the RCC is much lower.

  90. SHW says:

    MLD: “But you said earlier that you were in obedience and following God’s commands. That to me means that you don’t “slip” up. If you do “slip” up, then you are not in obedience and you are not following His commands.”

    REPLY: Some sins cause the loss of eternal life (cause spiritual death) and some do not. Ezekiel 33:12-20

    “Sin leading to death” or Mortal (spiritually deadly) sin causes the loss of eternal life unless repented before death.

    Venial sin (not spiritually deadly) does not cause the loss of spiritual life within the soul. (5:16-17 of 1 John)

    (24:16 of Proverbs) “For a righteous man may fall seven times
    And rise again,
    But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

    Jesus shows that there are different degrees of sin and different punishments for them:

    (5:22 of Matthew) “But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.”

    Even every idle word will be judged, (Matthew 12:36) but not every word will cause the loss of spiritual life within the soul. Not every sin defiles the Holy Spirit’s temple within us. He leaves the soul when a person’s sin grievously insults Him. (10:29-30 of Hebrews) (3:16-18 of 1 Corinthians) (6:7-8 of Galatians)

    That’s all for today. See you another day. 🙂

  91. Another Voice says:

    SHW uses Col 1:23 in the 6:20 post.

    SHW, that is a 1st class conditional sentence. It does NOT say what you claim it supports. This is not something open to difference of opinion. It is the clear teahing of the Bible. ANYBODY, who has a clue about conditional sentences in Greek will deny the verse means what you claim it does above.

    Yet, it is one of the most-oft abused prooftext verses for your claims.

    Now, will you keep quoting it in future arguments, or will you be open to the fact (and it is fact not opinion) that you are wrong with this verse?

  92. Na'amah says:

    SHW for the past 5yrs or so i have been seeking to find a different Christian venue than the non denominational church i have actively been involved in for the past 26 yrs.

    i completed study w the Catholic church approximately a year ago to convert or return to the CHURCH. i had worked professionally earlier w the diocese in my community and received published recognition by our Cardinal. The priests and sisters i spent many hours working and in fellowship w and my love for the Mass is why i considered becoming Catholic.

    I am still seeking where my God given talents and abilities will be invested. I am postponing my decision at this time for my move i know i need to make in my life out of respect for my husband, children and relatives involved in ministry.

    I know this is not what you intend by the information you’ve provided here, but the essence of how you understand and experience our Heavenly Father has confirmed for me i will now not become a member of the Catholic Church.

    I will not and cannot ‘serve’ out of FEAR as i interpret and hear what you write here. The Japanese culture is a “shame based” structure. The greatest gift in my life was knowing He holds me in His hand and NO ONE can remove or take me from Him, not even my failings. He will seek me if i wander as He is my Shepherd. I do know His voice. I know He has blessed me w many talents and abilities, and i fail to measure up to my God given potential on a daily basis. His grace sustains me and resolves this existential guilt for me. My best is putrid to His perfection. And yet i KNOW He loves me and it is the only place i have ever experienced the gift of unconditional love.

    Your words do not contain this description of my Saviour

  93. ( |o )====::: says:

    Na’amah,

    m/

    :ar!

  94. London says:

    Hey SHW…did you ever get those books by Earlene Fowler?

  95. Eric Hoffman says:

    “Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29)

    What the heck am I missing here?

  96. victorious says:

    For discipline Caner could be sent to Michigan to plant a church amidst an Islamic community in Dearborn and spearhead an outreach on the campus of Calvin College in Grand Rapids. It would be interesting to see what he had to say as a result of such experiences. At least he would gain a measure of credibility. Debating and discipling are worlds apart.

    As for summer reading. Right now I am reading back issues of the Wesleyan Theological Journal online.

  97. centorian says:

    vic… lol!!

    and airing the sins and calling for repentence of leadership within the church is a sin why?

  98. Fred says:

    SHW:

    I have never read such a deceptive bunch of stuff in my life.

    The whole Idea of Peter being the original Pope and founder of the RCC is basically without merit.

    There is a reason why the majority of Italians today DO NOT attend Mass and are not fooled by the RCC doctrine.

    I am so sorry to see you deceived by the doctrines of the RCC.

  99. Believe says:

    SHW, I love your heart…I like you as a person from our interaction on here…I just disagree with Catholic Theology.

    Na’amah, your 7:46pm was awesome. That is where I’m at…

    …while “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom”….God did not call us to a spirit of fear, but a spirit of Power…and that Power is through Him (not of ourselves).

  100. brian says:

    I hope you all are well, I am glad the blog is back it has always been a blessing for me, I hope you and your families are blessed and the Glory of God abounds in your life. Do take care.

  101. SHW says:

    Another Voice,

    Book of Galatians:
    The Galatians are baptized Christians (disciples of Christ), (28:19 of Matthew), but now some of them within this group are believing (because of the influence of Judaizers within their group) that it is necessary for the males to become circumcised in order to be saved and inherit eternal life.

    In the Old Covenant, circumcision (a work of the Law of Moses) “justified.” Circumcision of a man made a man’s whole household spiritually “right” with God. When a person’s spiritual relationship has been made “right” (justified) with God, he is then called a “righteous” person.

    In the New Covenant, baptism justifies and sanctifies (makes a person righteous). (6:11 of 1 Corinthians) Circumcision does not justify any person in the New Covenant. (3:26-29 of Galatians)

    A righteous man is called a son of God (3:38 of Luke), (4:6 of Galatians) and he remains a “son of God” until/unless he sins grievous sin (mortal/spiritually deadly sin) which is also called “sin leading to death.” (5:16-17 of 1 John) If he sins “sin leading to death,” then he becomes a “son of disobedience” and thereby he loses his inheritance to eternal life. (33:12-20 of Ezekiel), (5:5-7 of Ephesians)

    When he confesses and repents of his sin leading to death (mortal sin), then his spiritual relationship with God is restored once again and so he has hope of entering into eternal life once more. (2:1 of 1 John), (18:11-13 of Matthew)

    If a man sins “sin not leading to death” he still remains righteous because “venial” sin (sin not leading to death) does not cause the Holy Spirit to leave his soul. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us by His presence/abiding within our hearts/minds/souls. This is why He is called the Spirit of Grace. (10:26-30 of Hebrews). He is sanctifying Grace.

    There is only one Lord God, but He is three Persons. (2:4 of Genesis) (6:4 of Deuteronomy) Wherever One Person is, the other Two Persons are there also because They are one God. The Father is known as the Creator, the Son is known as the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is known as the Sanctifier, but all are the Savior of mankind because They are one God. (43:3 of Isaiah)

    So, if these Galatians insist that it is circumcision that saves them in the New Covenant, then they are “turning away” (1:6 of Galatians) from the faith because they are now denying that it is Christ who saves them. If they turn away from the faith, then they are no longer saved. (1:16 of Titus)

    People must continue in the faith until death if they desire to enter into eternal life. (2:10 of Revelation), (4:2 of 1 Corinthians) If they turn away or fall away from the faith, then they are no longer saved and they will not be approved to enter into eternal life after they die (unless they confess and repent before death). (3:17 of 2 Peter)

    Neither circumcision nor uncircumcism saves anyone in the New Covenant. It is “faith working through love” that saves. (5:6 of Galatians) “Faith working together with works” saves. (5:6 of Galatians)

    Faith “alone” does not save. (2:24 of James) We are His workmanship and so we must do (we are commanded to do) the good works that God has prepared for us to do if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die. (5:8 of 1 Timothy), (6:15 of Matthew)

    (2:10 of Ephesians) “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

    We are forbidden to do evil works if we desire to enter into eternal life. (7:22-24 of Matthew)

    We are judged by/according to our works on Judgment Day.

    (2:5-9 of Romans) “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

  102. SHW says:

    Na’amah,

    RE: “The greatest gift in my life was knowing He holds me in His hand and NO ONE can remove or take me from Him, not even my failings.”

    REPLY: A person is not placed into God’s hand unless he is going to be approved to inherit eternal life after he dies. This is the reason why he cannot ever be snatched out of God’s hand.

    These “Christians” personally “believed” (they relied on their own feelings and emotions) that they were going to inherit eternal life and so they are “bewildered” when Christ does not give them the right to enter into eternal life:

    (7:21-23 of Matthew) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (13:24-27 of Luke)

    These “Christians” prayed in His name, they prophesied in His name, and they cast out demons in His name, etc, but they are not approved to enter into eternal life.

    The reason that they are not allowed/approved to enter into eternal life is because they did not obey His commandments. These “Christians” committed adultery, fornicated, etc. and all the while they were doing these mortal sins, they still “believed” that they were saved. They relied on their “feelings and emotions” rather than “fact.”

    The “fact” is this: The Holy Spirit does not abide in souls who are defiled with mortal sins. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) If the Holy Spirit (guarantee of eternal life) is not abiding within your soul at the time of your death, then you are not approved and you never will be approved to enter into eternal life:

    (5:19-21 of Galatians) “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    If Christians do (practice) these things, then they will not inherit eternal life.

    (5:5-7 of Ephesians) “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

    If Christians “partake” of these spiritually deadly (mortal) sins, then they will receive the wrath of God instead of eternal life.

    (3:5-7 of Colossians) “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

    If Christians return to these sins (walk in them again) after baptism, then they become sons of disobedience (they are no longer sons of God) and so they will receive the wrath of God when they die instead of receiving eternal life.

    Jesus approves for eternal life only the people who obey His commandments until they die. (5:9 of Hebrews), (24:11-13 of Matthew) Only the people who obey His commandments actually love Him. He promised to approve for eternal life only those people who love Him. (2:10 of Revelation) (1:12 of James)

    If you believe in Jesus, then you obey Him. If you do not obey Him, then you do not believe in Him nor do you love Him. Obedience is belief. Disobedience is unbelief. You will not enter into eternal rest if you are an unbeliever. (3:18-19 of Hebrews)

    People who claim to love/know Him (believe in Him), but who do not also obey Him are called liars.

    (2:4 of 1 John) “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (14:6 of John)

    What happens to all liars?

    (21:8 of Revelation) “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Obey or perish. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 (4:6 of Hosea)

  103. SHW says:

    London,

    Thank you for reminding me! I have requested them at my library and I should be receiving some of them in a couple of days. (They are at other branches.) The others are on “hold.”

  104. SHW says:

    Eric Hoffman,

    RE: “What the heck am I missing here?”

    REPLY: If you do not “obey” His commands, then you do not “believe in” Him.

    Belief is obedience. Unbelief is disobedience. Hebrews 3:18-19

  105. SHW says:

    FRED: “The whole Idea of Peter being the original Pope and founder of the RCC is basically without merit.”

    REPLY:
    Peter was the first pope/papa of the “Catholic Church.” The name of my church is Catholic Church. I belong to the Roman/Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There are about 15 other Rites belonging to the Catholic Church. My church has been nicknamed the “Roman Catholic Church,” but this is not its correct nor its official name.

    (16:18-19 of Matthew)
    “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    God changes Abrams name to Abraham since he is to be the father of many nations. Genesis 17:5

    God changes Simon’s name to Peter (Peter means rock) because Peter has been chosen by the Father to be the Rock’s (Christ’s) representative on earth. Peter is the chief steward of Christ’s apostles/stewards (4:1-2 of 1Corinthians) and of Christ’s Church on earth. Matthew 16:15-17

    “Keys” are a sign of authority in the ancient world. The king’s steward was given the keys of the king’s kingdom and so he had the responsibility for the king’s treasury and his storehouses. When this chief steward died or could no longer fulfill this office of chief steward, then this office passed to another person. (22:15-23 of Isaiah)

    Only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of God. The other apostles were given power to “bind and loose” also, but they were not given the keys. Only one person has possession of the keys at a time. (18:15-18 of Matthew)

    The person who listens to the Church hears God:

    (10:16 of Luke) “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

  106. SHW says:

    Believe,

    Thank you for choosing to be my friend in Christ. I choose you, too. 🙂

    Every person is given the free will to choose what he wants to believe and it is very important to choose wisely.

    I do not think that any one of us here on this blog/forum wants to be among that group of poor Christians who are bewildered and heartbroken on Judgment Day when Jesus forbids them entrance into eternal life because of their disobedience to His commandments. Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:24-27

  107. SHW says:

    Correction to post 101:

    I put the same Scripture reference (5:6 of Galatians) for two different statements. Here is the correct Scripture reference for this one:

    “Faith working together with works” is what saves/perfects us. James 2:22

    And here is another one:

    Dead faith (faith without good works) does not save us. James 2:20

  108. Tim says:

    What we’re seeing here is the classic infused vs. imputed debate regarding justification. The Bible is *absolutely* clear that justification is imputed to the believer because of the work of Jesus Christ alone, and that the believer’s life then changes because of the work of Jesus Christ alone.

    SHW would have us believe that Jesus starts the work of justification, and then gradually infuses us with it over time as we strive to continue to please God. It is indeed what the Catholic church teaches, but it is not at all what the Bible teaches.

    I second AV’s notion…if we really want to get into this, the best place to begin is the book of Galatians. (Of which Luther wrote a wonderful commentary)

    SHW – I would ask you that before you quote James 2 yet again, to please at least study the context of the verse. The faith that saves us is indeed the faith that works in the life of a believer, but as Romans (and Ephesians, and Galatians, etc) makes perfectly clear, that faith has been granted to us by the grace of Jesus Christ. It is HIS work that justifies the believer, and the good works that naturally follow in the life of a believer are all attributed to the sanctifying work of Jesus Christ.

  109. Fred says:

    SHW:

    You are representing a doctrine(s) which many say, justifiably BTW, are heresies. You focus on men and not the power of God who changes men. Your “church” is of the same nature as those scribes and Pharisees who were condemned by Jesus Himself. You and your doctrines of the authority of men rob and steal from the eternal power, strength and glory which comes form God alone in Christ Jesus.

    Your eyes are closed and your ears plugged by the adversary who would keep you from walking with the one who spoke and the wind and waves stopped. I pray God would release you from your bondage.

    On this Rock I stand, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

  110. Na'amah says:

    SHW you said,

    “These “Christians” personally “believed” (they relied on their own feelings and emotions) that they were going to inherit eternal life and so they are “bewildered” when Christ does not give them the right to enter into eternal life:

    I find your words to be dismissive and invalidating of my personal expression and experience of a relationship w our Father… by placing “Christian” and “believed” in quotes and then following in parenthesis your assumption that my thoughts are only based from emotions and feelings.

    We are not in disagreement regarding how we are to live and pursue the life Christ wants us to. It is your presentation that “you” do it, “you” earn it and you will not know if you have met the measure until the end… i find no joy or abundance and it certainly is not a light yoke.

  111. papias says:

    SMW,

    How do you deal with verses such as 1 John 5:20 and Eph 2:8-9?

    Those seem to say with some certainity that we can know we are saved and that works play no part in it.

    I am not saying that a believer does not do works after they are saved. But we are not more saved or less saved by our works. That is confusing sanctification and justification.

  112. centorian says:

    Galatians is quite clear, they were leaving their position of being saved by grace for a salvation by works and Paul is further expanding their understanding of grace.

    Mr. Tim spoke quite well in #108.

    It’s been some time since we had a Roman Catholic here that feels they need to proclaim the views of Romanism…. Speaking of Galatians, what did Paul say about another gospel in Galatians 1?

  113. Another Voice says:

    SHW writes 54 lines of reply addressed to me and yet ignores most of my #86 and ALL of my #88 and #91. SHW – I will be praying for your salvation in the days to come, but trying to do this over the internet has finished for me.

    The bottom line for me is this. If SHW attended my Calvary Chapel, I would tremble for SHW’s soul. I would not be able, in good conscience, to allow SHW to serve at our church because only saved people can serve with us,

    I don’t see some sort of accomodation by simply stating, “Well SHW loves the Lord and is Catholic”

    Heresy is heresy. Should I tell any works-righteousness heretics that come to our CC that they are in trouble here at CC, but here are directions to the local Catholic church. God will accept your heresy if you attend there.

  114. Michael says:

    AV,

    There is a radical slant to SHW’s writing that is very troubling.

    I have yet to see where Christ is involved in her salvation schema at all…if salvation is utterly dependent on works, why did Christ have to die?

  115. Lutheran says:

    ‘I have yet to see where Christ is involved in her salvation schema at all’

    Kinda like “Where’s Waldo”?

    Where’s Jesus?

  116. deadmanwalking says:

    one wild thought I had today as I was reading up on the Roman Rites is that old doesn’t prove something is right and new does’t proves something is wrong. The Church has been in a process since it began. The first believers had a very simplistic form of worship and a simplistic view of God. A few really knew what was written like Paul who had a more advanced view, but as Peter said about Paul he was hard for most people to understand. So even Peter sensed that Paul was right, but had trouble following his reasoning and doctrine (teaching)

    So the Truth never changes, but our understanding of the Truth is always growing. As time passes both a deeper understanding of the truth appears, as well as more and more people falling to the old heresies. Heresy is like a runway model she never changes but she looks different each time she walk down the runway because she has changed clothes.

    Satan has not come up with anything new, but he comes up with new clothes for the same old lies. He still uses the same three he used on Eve to tempt people to sin.. The lust of the eye — it was pleasant to the eye — the lust of the flesh — it was good to eat — and the pride of life — it was desired to make one wise… So heresy and truth have been at war with each other since the Garden, therefore the virtue of being old does’t make it right, and the aspect of being new does not prove it wrong. Truth is eternal – our understanding of Truth should grow throughout out lives. In face I would go as far as to say If we are not moving forward in Truth we will by default be sliding backward away from it.

    Today most people make up their mind about what church to go to base on 1) it tasted good 2) it looks good 3) it makes them feel superior to others — all straight from the big three 1Jo 2:16* For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17* And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

  117. Michael says:

    DMW,

    That is classic DMW….great post.

  118. centorian says:

    yes it was…… great points, dmw.

  119. deadmanwalking says:

    the last time I was able to attend church, it was in Riverside, and a guy sat next to me who was blind and deaf, and I marveled at his attendance. That Sunday we partook of the Lord’s Supper, and as the implements were handed out I took the bread and put it in his hand, and held him at the wrist until it was time to partake the same with the cup. Then I hugged him with tears in my eyes and realized the only sermon he hears with the bread being put in his hand by me, and my touch to tell him when to partake and then the hug I gave him.

    Our actions are louder than our words to a world that is deaf and blind to the things of God. In the OT the garments of the high priest were hemmed with a pomegranate and a bell alternating all the way around the garment, the bell (sound – what we say) would draw your attention and cause you to look but when you looked you would see the fruit (our good works)

  120. Michael says:

    Two in a row…

  121. Another Voice says:

    new does’t proves something is wrong
    —————————————————
    I get a laugh out of “scholars” who dismiss the spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians because they only showed up again in the past 100 years (and thus didn’t really show up at all in truth)…while at the same time teaching a pretribulation rapture of the church.

    DTS..I’m looking at you! LOL 🙂

    P.S. Great stuff DMW

  122. Em says:

    a lot of good food for thot for me in this thread…
    i think – dunno, of course – that SHW is redeemed by virtue of her appreciation of all that she has grasped of our Savior… i think – dunno, of course – that she has taken that understanding of our need of redemption and fallen in line with the teachings of her historical background, her family’s church. She seems, to me, to see Christ more as the enabler of our achieving salvation?
    It seems that SHW’s views swap everything end for end. i’d say that my ‘feelings’ are the appreciators of my faith and my Lord. SHW seems to say that my feelings govern my faith? Not so!!! Unless, you are identifying as a ‘feeling’ that mysterious longing to know more of Him. And there is a mysterious joy, which seems to shine on us from above at times, but it is a joy that could never be described as an emotion.

  123. Em says:

    DMW, i confess to wanting a whole collection of the thots that you are led to share here on the Phoenix Preacher. early on i copied a couple – should have set up a file… you see life with Christ’s eyes as much as anyone i’ve ever come across… God keep you and Debbie for us – is that loving with dissimulation? hope not

  124. centorian says:

    AV,
    Cessationism is an interesting topic, one that has it’s fair share of inconsistencies, yet also has some valid points as well. It is also a position that I am revisiting motivated in part by the rotten fruit of pentecostalism/charismaticism. I have always been suspect of Azusa St., particularly when considering whether a well can bring forth both sweet and bitter water. It seems that the stronger we gravitate toward a particular theological slant, the greater chance we have of inheriting difficulties that are hard to reconcile.

  125. Na'amah says:

    Em you said what i meant (once again 🙂 )

    “SHW seems to say that my feelings govern my faith? Not so!!! Unless, you are identifying as a ‘feeling’ that mysterious longing to know more of Him. And there is a mysterious joy, which seems to shine on us from above at times, but it is a joy that could never be described as an emotion.”

    and there have been very long periods of time in my walk where there was/are no “feelings/emotion” just the knowing, like a set of facts. while living my faith… i don’t usually have an emotional response to breathing (until i can’t of course) i just do it.

  126. dansk says:

    My grandpa always said, “I am a member of the catholic church. Just not the Roman Catholic Church.”

    Love conquers all. While we are still this side of heaven and working out the differences in our theology, we can point each other insistently to the ever-present reality of the living and life-transforming Christ, and live as family.

    I try to practice this, without shortchanging the absolute need for each person to come to Christ personally and genuinely and fully:

    He drew a circle that shut me out —
    Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
    But Love and I had the wit to win:
    We drew a circle that took him in!

  127. Another Voice says:

    The cessationist argument can be made, but my point is the folly of those making it by emphasizing its “recent” nature while at the same time holding to a pretrb rapture eschatology.

    Azuza St. is meaningless to me as far as the doctrinal argument against cessationism.

  128. centorian says:

    AV,
    I see your point…. Not much difference in those who wrestle with apostles not being for today as they misapply Acts 1. Of interest to me is the view that Acts 1 is a correct requirement for the office of an apostle and yet will also say Peter was in the flesh to suggest they replace Judas; asserting that Paul, not Mathias, was his successor. Paul does not meet all the criteria in Acts 1.

  129. Another Voice says:

    Centy,

    That whole “Paul was the ‘real’ 12th apostle should not be open to debate”

    Acts 6:2 makes it clear who the Holy Spirit sees as the 12. And Paul is not there.

    Acts 2:14 also makes this point, though the prior verse should end the discussion.

  130. Another Voice says:

    And Centy,

    I bet most all of the ‘rank and file’ Calvary pastors repeat this canard simply because they heard one of the ‘legends” on the radio make the mistake. (At least one of them HAS said it, because I deal with it in our church. Pastor Legend teaches this, and I get to say Pastor Legend is wrong.

    THAT is a huge problem in CC,. We are a collection of rabbis pointing to our personal Shammais or Hillels for authority.

    Not on my watch…:)

  131. centorian says:

    AV,
    lol!! yes, I know, but the zealots they are loud.

  132. deadmanwalking says:

    I once was part of five pastors to interview a young man who wanted to start a new CC in our area. All the others asked several questions which he answered according to Chuck and all seemed fine with them. At the end I asked 1) Why you 2) why here 3) why now

    Then I sat back and listened and took notes. I Drew a line down a page of paper on one column I made a mark for every time is said I me my and on the other column I made a mark for every time he spoke of God’s will for him or any reference the the Lord.

    The column for i me and my was full to the point I had to go to page two while the side for the Lord had only three marks.

    After he was done I showed to everyone and none of the other pastor had a problem so it was voted 4 to 1 to accept him. I told them that I didn’t expect the young man to make it a year before there will be serious problems… 8 months later he got his assistant pastor’s wife pregnant. Destroyed many in process.. and I just so happen to be a “I told you so person”

    Now I listen to what people say about the church they are looking for, and about all I hear is “I am looking for a church where I can where it will give me– I me I me” Don’t hear people saying I am seeking God’s will for what Church He wants me to go to…

  133. deadmanwalking says:

    There are only two ways to live 1) My will be done and 2) Thy will be done.

    I think it was CS Lewis who said that at the end of our life those who have demanded My will be done will be granted what they want and since it is God’s will that all none should perish they will be granted their own will

    Mat 18:11* For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12* How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14* Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

  134. brian says:

    You know deadmanwalking I was often intensely almost pathologically ashamed of wanting to help people in the faith community. It really has been the only reason I choose a church, where I can make the biggest bang with the resources God has seen fit, though I dont know why, to bless me with. To be blunt this has almost always ticked fellow Christians off no end. It makes no sense to me, I am sure I am doing something wrong, I aways assume that. If I forget that point I am often reminded by fellow believers what I have done wrong.

    Though it bothers me greatly I dont lift a finger now at Church, I sit in the pew listen, keep my mouth shut and totally mind my own business. I get along fine now. It is an extremely strange religion, it really is.

  135. SHW says:

    I am sorry that I cannot take the time needed to answer all of your posts so I will post this in reply:

    Do You “Know” God?

    “…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (1:7-9 of 2 Thessalonians)

    Scripture shows us that our Lord Jesus Christ will take His vengeance in “flaming fire” on all people who do not “know” God and on all people who do not “obey” His gospel. His vengeance will be an everlasting punishment.

    We need to learn what it means to “know” God so that we can truly know Him and we also need to learn what His “gospel” is so that we can be sure to “obey” His gospel. None of us wants to end up in hell forever.

    Take the Test:

    (2:3-5 of 1 John) “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

    (3:24 of 1 John) “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

    (5:32 of Acts) “And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

    (4:1 of 1 John) “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

    Satan is the father of liars:
    (8:42-44 of John) “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, (John 14:21) for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

    (2:4 of 1 John) “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

    (2:2-3 of Ephesians) (Liars) “… walk … according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 (conducting themselves) in the lusts of (the) flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and (are) by nature children of wrath,” (13:14 of Romans), (2:11 of 1 Peter), (4:1-3 of 1 Peter), (2 of 2 Peter)

    Do “you” truly KNOW God or have “you” been DECEIVED by Satan, the father of lies?

    In order to “know” God, you must “obey” His commandments!

  136. SHW says:

    If you do not “know” God, then you will not inherit eternal life. You will instead be thrown in flaming fire for eternity. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

  137. ( |o )====::: says:

    SHW,
    I think most of us have stated our positions and views.
    You have been offered the comfort from the scriptures but you return to continue to sell your view that no one can have confidence in their salvation, which is your right to offer, but candidly, we’re all done with sipping from your dry empty bowl of wrath.

    The good news is not to be found in what you have brought, so if you believe you are called to come warn then your job is done.

    We will confidently away Jesus fair judgment in our lives.

    Now, please stop.
    ( |o )====:::

  138. ( |o )====::: says:

    We will confidently AWAIT Jesus fair judgment in our lives.

  139. ( |o )====::: says:

    please go AWAY until you have spent a few months considering the views of the fine people here who have said all they can say to you

    ( |o )====:::

  140. ( |o )====::: says:

    SHW,
    Let me modify what I said because I really only speak for myself so I now really need to frame my post in terms of my preferences.

    PhxP has become a community.

    I prefer you stick around if you would like to engage as part of the community, asking individual posters how they are, following their stories, listening as they share their hearts about family, church, their countries and cultures, also sharing from your heart about the insights you have learned by living life, having relationships, your school experiences, workplace challenges, your community and the challenges it faces, employment, etc.

    If you do that, by all means, please stick around.

  141. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t think that SHW needs to go away – but she needs to be willing to take the scriptural shots that are aimed at her. (which she actually does.

    Now I must state to be clear that I agree that we need to be doing all of the commandment keeping that SHW speaks of, but not for salvation and not to remain saved – but because we are Christians.

    I find the commandment keeping that we need to do is to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Trust that the promises that Christ made to secure salvation, are true and for you. DONE!!

  142. ( |o )====::: says:

    MLD,
    I SO agree with you. The commandment keeping becomes FRUIT instead of the sad and sorry works that SHW is demanding we perform.

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