Mea Culpa & More
When I was researching Mondays article I also had the chance to talk with some people about my views on the Harvest Crusades.
After those discussions… I think I might have been wrong.
I hate it when that happens.
The way it was explained to me is that the build up to the crusade…the advertising, the involvement of the local churches, and most importantly, the invitation to attend from a friend is as important as the event itself.
When someone agrees to attend after all that they have already consciously or subconsciously opened up to the work of God in their lives and expect to “get saved”.
If Greg Laurie delivers the Gospel goods (and he does)… welcome to the kingdom.
It’s actually personal evangelism on a huge scale with better bands than normal.
It makes good sense and you can build a biblical case for it.
Mea culpa.
Here’s what I’m reading this week…
The Case For the Psalms: Why They Are Essential: N.T. Wright
Rediscovering Holiness: J.I. Packer
Calvin and the Reformed Tradition: On the Work of Christ and the Order of Salvation: Richard Muller
What’s on your list?
What were you wrong about?
Here’s something I won’t be reading:
“Tired of Facebook? Now There is a Social Media Page for Those with a Biblical Worldview.”
http://www.myworldviewpage.com
Oh…and first!
Make that second.
Preaching Christ in all the Scripture-Edmund Clowney;
Precious Remedies against Satan’s Devices–Thomas Brooks
Nostrum: The Scourge book2–Roberto Calas (what if the black death actually turned people into zomibes? what fun!)
God’s Empowering Presence–Gordon Fee (just gonna read the intro chapters, but I’m just so proud that I found if for $7.99 at 1/2 Price Books last Saturday)
CK,
I won’t be signing up there either… 🙂
Shouldn’t I be first since I actually answered the question?
bishopdave,
I’ll pass on the zombies, but the rest of your list is gold.
Never saw any increase in church attendance due to harvest crusades. Yes, I understand the “even if just one believes and is saved” idea. But, that’s not what harvest crusades say. They say, thousands saved every year. But the church attendance the following Sunday, remains the same.
Andy,
How do we quantify that with the number of churches and the size of the region involved?
Michael,
I can’t quantify nationwide. I can only quantify somewhat in SoCal where I used to live, where year after year it was said that thousands accepted the Lord at the harvest crusade, every year for decades, but church attendance in the region was generally the same as it has always been.
I believe that most that come forward, are rededications. And that is good. Never anything wrong with that. It is good fruit. But it is erroneous and deceptive to call it all “new believers”, as harvest does. I believe it when the Holy Spirit says in Acts that 3000 were saved. I’m skeptical of it coming just from Greg Laurie’s statements.
Andy @ 11 ” I’m skeptical of it coming just from Greg Laurie’s statements.”
But if you don’t boast of numbers, how are you going to convince anyone that the Holy Spirit is working in your ministry?
Big business isn’t easy, I’m sure you’d agree, especially when the product is eternity.
Years ago when I was at Costa Mesa, we had a friend who went to church with a group of us for many months. Went to our home Bible study too. Always as a seeker and enjoying our friendship as we would often go out to lunch. A small group of us went to a Harvest Crusade one night, invited him, planning to go out for coffee afterwards. There was zero expectation of anything. He just always hung around us, and we welcomed his company – and knew he needed the Lord.
As I’m praying during the invitation, my wife shakes me and says “X is going forward”
I look up and he already is out of his seat, and halfway to the field. I had to practically run to catch him and go with him down to the field.
So that was not a rededication. It was a guy who already was going to church who did not add to any attendance numbers the next week.
But I’m sure it is a scene played out among many many others with their friends too.
“But if you don’t boast of numbers, how are you going to convince anyone that the Holy Spirit is working in your ministry?”
The irony is how many people that speak against “easy believism” will not have issue with a crusade where the sinner’s prayer is the key. By the way, I am usually accused of being an “easy believism” guy, which I’m fine with that. 🙂
Steve,
I am sure some are saved, I just don’t believe that everyone that goes forward, is new. Since you are sharing a testimony, I will too. A friend of mine that worked harvest would say that they’d follow up later, each assigned to call 6 people, and none of the 6 wanted to talk to him about Jesus or church. They did go forward that night. And many others he said, were rededications. They slipped in their walks. Again, not bad. Just not new believers, for the most part.
Andy,
That makes sense…I can accept both yours and Steve’s anecdotal evidence at the same time.
Crownedone1…it’s my understanding that the Harvest Crusades run at a deficit. No one is getting rich that I know of.
My concern was to be fair…and I’ve been critical of these crusades.
I was offered another viewpoint that made sense…and thought it worth sharing.
My tribe is not big on crusade evangelism… 🙂
I guess I am bothered by all this “saved” numbers stuff. It kind of reminds me of the “casualty counts” I often heard as a teen during the Vietnam War. Almost every night after a major battle the news would give a casualty count of the enemy to say how victorious the USA was. We weren’t because while the body count was big the USA never captured the hearts and minds of the people, so we lost the war.
What matters most is God’s word getting into people and I think Michael nailed it that the drama of people coming forward or the addition to of bodies to the Sunday service isn’t what its all about.
Andy, I don’t for a second doubt that some people have an emotional experience, feel pressured to go forward or whatever.
But that is common for any and all such calls. Not just the ones by Calvary Chapel. I went to a Baptist church for a few years and saw the same thing each week – mostly members going up to pray but anytime some new visitor went forward it was always proclaimed someone just got saved for the first time by that sermon (always when the person had been escorted to the back to talk with an elder privately). Billy Graham’s crusades are no different. Lots of churches have the “altar call” and all that attains to it.
However, the point is that Harvest Crusade makes a large effort in both word and deed to tell all these people that they need to plug into a good Bible-teaching church. They give them typically a New Testament to read too.
When you single out one such example (the CC one) and use words like they are deceptive and so forth, then I have a problem with that.
If you want to criticize the whole idea of altar calls, no matter the denomination, then that is certainly worthy of discussion on its own merits.
As an aside, I can tell you a lot about church attendance issues. People die. People move out of the area. People switch churches. People backslide. People have their work schedules change. And some people are once or twice a month attenders anyway. So any church that seems to have basically the same attendance week after week, despite all those factors, actually must have a large amount of new people that have started to come.
Mass event evangelism has been on the scene most of my life. I remember Billy Graham coming to town when I was kid, seeing Bob Harrington – the Chaplain of Bourbon St. as a young teen, more Harvest events in several different locations than I can count and Luis Palau and Billy again as an adult and the countless no name evangelists that came through the various churches I attended. Its been part of the life blood of my walk with God.
I don’t like much of the way Harvest does their programming. It is antithetical to much of what I would call “church culture”. I realize that statement can be dissected in a number of ways, but I feel like I’m watching a game show. There is a lot of hype, a lot of sensory overload that to me, distracts from what they are trying to do. It feels like a sales pitch rather than the demonstration of the Spirit and power. Harvest’s promo (for what is it…., Harvest America? ) where they targeted small towns was in my opinion condescending to rural America, but then again what do people who live in Southern California know about rural America?
Steve,
You seem very sensitive about the issue. I don’t have any trouble with people calling out the deficiencies of my “tribe” (as Michael uses the word, though I be in a different “tribe” than him). People do such calling out on me and mine all the time. It doesn’t matter to me at all.
There’s something about Calvary Chapel where, some things and names are just untouchable. You can’t even have the conversation without raw nerves being touched. That kind of mindframe is what causes many to run from Calvary Chapel, and I know many that have. You can’t have any discussion with some Calvary Chapel pastors, without a defensive and sensitive reaction. Now if that wasn’t your intention to come across that way, then I apologize. But that was the way I took it, even if no one else does.
We’re talking about harvest crusades in this post, so that is what I brought up. If you want to discuss Graham or Baptists or whoever, I’d be happy to do that, but they weren’t in the original post. Having lived in SoCal for so long, having known many involved with harvest, and seeing firsthand all the church trends that mean more than just one weekend a year (we’re the church every day), I don’t see the fruit in terms of new believers coming out of harvest crusades, as Greg Laurie claims. I don’t see it, and nobody has to agree with what I do and don’t see.
Ixtlan,
I will open up for more criticism…but I have a real problem with the idea that local churches need a celebrity piped in to the local assembly for evangelistic purposes.
It would be my assumption that the local pastor has that end covered…
I could be wrong again…but will be far harder to convince on this one.
You can turn it back on me, Andy, if you desire. Such comments @20 show the challenge of anyone associated with CC giving a point of view to a criticism because the kneejerk response by many is that someone is overly sensitive and defensive. At the same time I appreciate your apology that it is possible you are taking me the wrong way – for you are.
I think it is not fair to Greg and the CC people associated to use the word “deceptive”
Like I said, if you want to discuss the folly of altar calls, tent revivals, and crusades, which (as noted above by another) are part of Christian culture and have been since well before CC even existed – then that is a different issue. If all those in the Body of Christ that speak no differently than Greg does are likewise being “deceptive” in your opinion, then so be it. Like you said, it is your opinion, your judgment, and your responsibility before the Lord in making it. Deception is a sin, no?
My objection here on this blog is when I see a CC double standard to speak up. In hopes to both educate and reduce the divisiveness.
As for me, I’m used to defending to others within CC why our church DOESN’T do altar calls on Sundays. 🙂
So it is rare for me to defend them but in the case of the Harvest Crusades (as opposed to the weekly Sunday service) I see their value.
Michael, would you not agree that it is a whole lot easier for someone in high school or college to invite someone to a Saturday night Harvest Crusade than it is a Sunday morning church service?
Steve,
It’s not unfair to Greg Laurie. James 3:1. Anyone speaking for the Lord in a teaching way, will receive the stricter judgment, and all of us must practice Acts 17:11. Some pain in the rump like myself will come asking questions.
It is deceptive if the report from harvest crusades is that “9,152 got saved today”, when many coming forward were rededications and such. That is deception. The point harvest wants you to believe, is that they were all new believers. Many were not.
Why does it matter? Because an illusion is being given to the populace, maybe not for money, but for some other motivation.
If you want to talk about altar calls in general, here is my personal waste of time opinion on them: God uses them. And so does the devil.
God uses them when the person has really believed the Gospel, which has usually happened before they got up from the chair. And the devil uses them when the person goes forward thinking, okay, the mere work of going forward has sealed me forever.
If it hasn’t, then why do it? It might not be confusing for all, but it is for some. And that would explain why 6 out of 6 that my friend called, didn’t want Jesus after coming forward in the past.
And were there another 6 that did want Jesus? Yes, but Greg Laurie told you 12 got saved, when maybe only 6 did.
Steve,
Are you talking about in a local church or in a stadium?
Michael, as you know these Harvest Crusades grew out of the local church concerts.
It’s sort of like the mega-church argument. A pastor is a solid exegete, the church is a loving place and doing good works…and nobody says a thing as long as the church is just a few hundred, or even a thousand or so…but then as it grows and grows and the same pastor is now teaching to 20,000, somehow that is a problem.
Sometimes it is OK to interpret growth as a blessing from God too. 🙂
So Andy, salvation is definitely dependent on someone willingness to talk about Jesus with a stranger over the phone?
“So Andy, salvation is definitely dependent on someone willingness to talk about Jesus with a stranger over the phone?”
Grasping at straws…… 😉 Okay. Salvation is dependent neither on talking on the phone nor going forward at a crusade. That’s my point. It’s harvest doing the phone work, not me. Ask harvest why they’re calling people on the phone, and why many don’t want Jesus at that time after having come forward at harvest in the past.
The only issue I have is this: Why is harvest saying the number saved, when it is clearly a deception? That is all.
my reading is limited to immediate needs, that is school…
“The Story of My Life” by Helen Keller & “The Miracle Worker” by William Gibson
They call out the number that prayed to receive Christ that weekend. They are not lying about the number of people that chose to get out of their seats and come forward publically to pray to receive Christ into their lives and actually show enough interest to complete such an info card for your friend to call them later.
They followup because they know it is important for people to get into fellowship (i.e. they actually care about the people who come forward and aren’t just looking for notches on a belt to promote advertising).
I’ll leave it at that. Maybe love believes all things and believes that Jesus does actually hear the prayers of such people. Maybe Satan really is an enemy who seeks to destroy the weakest and youngest especially.
Sounds like you want some sort of six-month update that concludes that because X amount of people prayed to receive Jesus but did not take our CC phone calls or join our CC churches we now pronounce them accursed – not Christians, and still in their sins on their way to hell.
(And yet, if they did such a thing, though the “deceptive” sin-label would drop, I’m sure another sin-label would replace it)
Steve,
Can harvest do anything wrong? Or is everything they do and say, always perfect? This is why I don’t typically get into conversations with this kind of thing. It’s useless.
Harvest reports those that have become believers as the number that went forward. It’s a deceptive report. They didn’t all become believers. Again, why does it matter? Because they want it to appear as it is not. If harvest wanted to say that some became believers, and some rededicated, and some just wanted to come forward though they were already saved, fine. That would be honest. The point of being intentionally dishonest, is what is the issue here. It doesn’t bring glory to God.
Andy, I also think calling out Christian brothers as sinners by claiming you have an idea of motivation and purpose that nobody but God has is also something that does not bring glory to God.
Something I would like YOU to see in yourself – as I think repenting of such judgments against the brethren would be in accordance to Scripture – and for your higher good in your walk with Him.
Or if it is easier on your conscience…dismiss me as the CC apologist who thinks CC and Harvest Crusade can do no wrong. Yep, that’s why I post here.
Have to run now.
And there it is… calling down fire on my head for asking questions when 2 plus 2 doesn’t equal 4. 🙂 Instead of doing the math with me, just condemn me for not towing the line.
Harvest is not being honest. We are told to judge in many verses in the New Testament. You should know the verses, I won’t quote them here because it will put my post into moderation (if it is still working that way). We are told to judge doctrine, and we are told to judge with righteous judgment, and we are told to judge those “inside”. Judgment is required for the believer. Not condemnation. But judgment.
I must dismiss you as an apologist for CC, since you haven’t given me anything else to go on. Perhaps you have to others in the past. Of course you don’t owe me anything anyway, but I will continue to state that harvest is basically lying.
I am with Steve completely on this. Can’t we rejoice that the gospel is being preached. BTW to apply James to OUR right to judge another man is way out of bounds.
Andy,
I may have ecclesiological or theological issues with Harvest type evangelism, but … I would not question their honesty or motives in their work.
MLD, you might not question it. But I do, as do many of my friends. If that makes me a persona non grata, so be it.
It makes you an unrepentant sinner.
Yes, I am an unrepentant sinner for questioning the honesty of something that is dishonest and unrepentant itself.
Not for questioning, for casting judgement. You know the difference, you just like holding onto your God complex.
If I am casting a judgment, it is not a condemnation to hell. It is an exposure that something is not true. You don’t believe that we are permitted by the Lord to state that something is untrue? I believe that we are. In fact, I believe it to be a command.
Are Andy and Andrew the same person? they write in the same voice.
MLD, we’re not the same person. By the way, what does the voice of text sound like? 🙂
In another thread, Andrew and I disagreed on the issue of church government, perhaps you might go peruse that text, and see what it sounds like 🙂
Andy, what you don’t seem to understand is their theology tells them that people coming forward are going to have a life changing event … so they count those who come forward. What is deceptive about that? Do you want them to take people to an interrogation room?
MLD, once again, they say everyone coming forward is getting saved for the first time. They aren’t saying that everyone coming forward is “having a life-changing event”. You said that. They don’t. They claim that all coming forward are getting saved for the first time. You might not think there is a difference. But I do believe there is a huge difference, which is why I’m discussing it.
“You don’t believe that we are permitted by the Lord to state that something is untrue?”
No, that’s not the issue and you know it. You are not only claiming that the numbers are untrue, but they are purposefully being used in a deceptive way.
Josh, yes, I am saying that they are using the numbers in a deceptive way. Because that is a fact. You disagree, and that’s fine. You can cast me to the lake of fire for saying it, but it is still so.
Andy,
I hear what you’re saying…and I’ll see if I can get an inquiry about this through the back door.
Andy,
You’ve got some bad information. Here is what Harvest Crusades claims. From their website….’What does the term “profession of faith” mean? Is it the same as a conversion?
We believe that only God has the power to “convert” a heart to Himself. We use the term “profession of faith” to indicate that a person made a public, formal profession of a desire to follow Christ and live by His Word (whether that be a first-time commitment or a recommitment). While many of these people will be discipled, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, and bear lasting fruit, we know that this is a matter of the heart and some will not continue on in the Christian faith (see Matthew 13). This is the reason that there is a follow-up process in place—to ensure that as many as possible are given all the tools and biblical counsel that they need, and are also prayed for….’
it appears Harvest is very careful to steer clear of exactly what Andy accuses them of.
“I hear what you’re saying…and I’ll see if I can get an inquiry about this through the back door.”
Thank you, Michael. I know it isn’t something that is going to cause cancer to be cured or stop wars in the world. But for years I’ve watched this, and it’s just so deceptive, and friends of mine have said it, and it just goes along with the same, “don’t talk” policy. You’re not even allowed to call it wrong. If they say that every soul coming forward is getting saved for the first time, then that is an inaccurate statement. Does that matter? Well, it matters to those that make the same statements year after year, so much so that they feel the necessity to say it.
Even the Holy Spirit said “about” 3000, when the number was bigger like that.
“more than 408,900 people have registered professions of faith through these outreaches.”
That’s the verbage from the site. IF those people have actually registered, I don’t see how Laurie could be called deceptive in the matter. Notice too, it doesn’t say saved, it says registered professions of faith.
Now, you can’t repent if you like.
Tele, it might say that on a website, but listen to Laurie when he speaks in public about it, when he’s giving discussions about it and pushing it at conferences, he won’t say what you posted there. He will talk about them all getting saved that day.
Josh, what is a “registered profession”? Professing what? Read my reply to Tele.
Andy,
This is what I know about Greg Laurie.
I know he cares very much about how these crusades are perceived and I know he genuinely has his whole heart wrapped up in them.
He is not intentionally deceptive…I would bet the farm on that.
You have a valid concern and perhaps we can get it addressed.
I’ll take your word for it, Michael. You, at the very least, aren’t just jumping down my throat, as the others. So thank you for that.
I am very familiar with Greg Laurie and his ministry. I have never ever heard Greg give the impression that everyone who comes forward is getting saved for the first time. That is erroneous. He is very careful and precise in the language used concerning those who respond at Harvest Crusades. That’s why your accusation here makes no sense.
Fine, Tele, I will check my information again. I will discount all the statements of friends that worked with harvest, who I know personally offline, and I will take your word for it, an anonymous name on the internet.
Maybe a tiny bit of sarcasm involved. 😉
I’ll go with Michael’s findings instead, if he so desires to dig about it.
Jumping down your throat? Toughen up buckaroo! You haven’t seen nothing yet.
I’m not big on crusades, or reporting numbers of decisions, etc. I just don’t think it is fair to impugn the motives of a pastor without all the information. You can say the numbers are inaccurate, but you should not say they are lying for this reason. You simply don’t know that.
Josh, I guess we’ll agree to disagree. I know people that I trust, that say the opposite of you. Whereas you, I’m sure you’re a nice guy, but I don’t know you at all.
That should say, I know people that I trust, that say the opposite of what you say…
So you have sources that are close enough to Greg Laurie to know that he falsifies the salvation numbers at his crusades, and he shares his motives behind doing that with them? Gotcha.
No, I have sources that state that many, and I mean many, that come forward, are rededications. My only issue is this: If it is being stated clearly by Laurie (not by a website, because even Benny Hinn who once said there are 9 Holy Spirits, has one Holy Spirit on his website)…. if it was stated clearly by Laurie that those coming forward include many rededications, and many are not coming forward for salvation, then I would have nothing to say here.
Harvest Crusade record keeping comes straight out of Billy Grahams model of registration of “decisions.” It’s worked for over 50 years and is a way for the “follow-up” ministries to do their job. The BGA will tell you clearly that the percentages of “converts” are low in comparison to the attendance numbers and alter call respondents. Evangelist’s value THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED. (what a silly concept) Numbers can indeed be deceptive and the measured “moment” of transformation cannot be judged by an alter call. But there is one who is the judge of salvation and it isn’t any of us. Seeds must be planted by the ones or the thousands and I rejoice that Greg has been preaching Jesus to anyone who will listen for years. The same cannot be said by his critics.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/is-mass-evangelism-still-relevant-greg-laurie-answers-yes-with-pastors-10-reasons-list-104255/
So Frosted Flake knows that I never preach Jesus to anyone. Good to know that. 😉
Andy,
“Critics” in general, but if the shoe fits………
Frosted Flake, it is possible to preach Jesus to everyone you can, and still also discuss these issues. The two are not contrary.
it might say that on a website, but listen to Laurie when he speaks in public about it
————————————————————
This is always classic to me. There is no discussion really possible with such people who dig in this way. I’ve heard Laurie for 20 years and he speaks of people praying to receive Christ. Making a profession of faith. Etc. Just as the website says.
You would think that Andy, (thanks to Tele bringing the info to the thread), would compliment Harvest for having such language on their website. For making clear that simply a going forward is not what it is all about. Nope.
The same thing happens when a church clearly has a profession of faith spelled out to the letter, but someone supposedly hears a message where a pastor speaks clumsily on a point and is forever declared a heretic by the keyboard heresy hunters in the blogosphere.
If it says it on the website – then you can bet it is the true feelings of Greg Laurie and the others behind the Harvest Crusades.
As to the issue of “rededications” this is all semantics and there is no telling what God knows of each people. Maybe when they grew up in a church, maybe CC maybe some mainline denomination, and they made a profession of faith in Christ at a young age and had always considered themselves a Christian but in fact have been living in willful disobedience and sin – sex, drugs, absolutely zero thought about God.100% given over to the flesh and the world and the devil.
So such a person makes a “rededication” and somehow that is to be distinguished as not an initial moment of salvation. Maybe the deception was in their salvation all along as a child. Maybe the reference is to the Arminian strain within CC in some circles as to security or lack thereof.
But in the end. Who gives a fig about semantics. Someone living for the flesh gets right with Christ at the Harvest Crusade and people want to argue that the guy was probably saved all along and therefore somehow it is deceptive to speak of such a one in a positive manner as fruit of the Crusade.
Steve,
Like I said, I’m with you and now I don’t have to type anymore.
Thanks FF. Looks like you, Tele, Josh, MLD all see the folly of this sort of judgment of motivation and the digging in deeper rather than just repenting.
Not sure where Michael is going on it…. 🙂
Brothers and sisters in Christ, new believer’s, old believer’s all gathering together to worship, pray and fellowship, sounds like something deceitful is surely to come from this sort of behavior. 🙂
Started this at break this morning:
Apparent Danger: The Pastor of America’s First Megachurch and the Texas Murder Trial of the Decade in the 1920s
Which has been updated to this:
http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Salvationist-Norris-Captivated-America/dp/1586422006/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378933396&sr=1-1&keywords=the+shooting+salvationist
And also reading this in bits and pieces:
http://www.amazon.com/Beowulf-Bilingual-Edition-ebook/dp/B001ULOPUE/ref=sr_1_5?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1378933568&sr=1-5&keywords=beowulf
Steve,
I can tell you that I believe Michael has deep respect for the Holy Spirit and His ability to work through people large or small. Mass evangelism has it’s up’s and down’s but when people gather to worship where the gospel is preached, good things happen.
Some of you have far too much time on your hands.
C.R.E.A.M. baby, just go see how the Greg Lauries and Rick Warrens of the world live and tell me $ don’t play a part. Steve your continous justifying of everything CC related is tired!! Josh, you seem to be somewhat anal retentive
Steve,
You apologize for your sacred cows and pile on those that don’t catch your fancy, hypocritical to me.
One thing that aintnup for debate Steve is that youe boy Greg Laurie holds jands with the false and satanic inspired catholic church
Solomon, do you have any facts about where Rick W or Greg L live or how they live? It’s my understanding that Rick W hasn’t drawn a salary in years and doesn’t take any money from Saddleback. Even if this is because of his books or for speaking engagements etc, how do you know about his lifestyle?
I’m not a fan of CC and dislike many CC pastor’s but what do you know about Greg’s finances?
This looks like another case of you opening your mouth and spewing your venom without doing any homework.
Newsflash Sol Rod, not every pastor steals from God and the church where they are called.
Rick made a killing off that horribly written purpose driven crap, it was so vapid and souless. No substance to it. If u don’t think these guys are living soft and luxurious then your a naive little boy. I have done my homework yo! The prosperity teachers get crap for this but yet the Calvary guys and other dudes get a pass. They just dress it up better and are not so flamboyanta about it. Oh come on man you fall for that Rick doesn’t get a salary crap, his $$$$$ comes from somewhere man, he sure ain’t doing it for pennies. A pastor should NEVER be rich, how could he the bible says we are to supply thise in need with our abudance and with their huge congregations I’m sure there are plenty in need and being the “Godly” men that I’m sure they are I bet they freely smd lovingly give away th theier abundance to their sheep.
Ameeican evangelicalism is big business and it is corporate, to think otherwise is to be an ignorant hillbilly as Michael would say. You keep idolizing your heroes buy I will question things and call out BS when I see it. I don’t buy these guys public images. Rick and Greg arw ecumenical compromisers amd Rick really butchers and waters down that word, you know itching ears and all that was foretold in our bibles
One thing I would never do is hold jands with Satanists.
Isn’t that how we tell us true christian from the false and satanist – they have jands and we don’t?
Bingo. You see a guy with jands, run for the hills.
It was shocking to realize Neal Diamond was a Satanist:
“Jands, touching jands. reaching out, touching me, touching you…”
Chilling.
I come here for 3 things- to get my itching ears scratched, to see what’s in everyone’s jands, and to be moderated. Works every time. Will someone please interpret the tongues posted in #80?
so, what are you guys reading?
Josh and MLD, that is hilarious!
Put your jand in the jand of the man who spilled the water.
Put your jand in the jand of the man who balmed the sea.
Take a jibe at yourself and you can jibe at others deferently
by putting your jand in the jand of the man from Hallelee.
Sol Rod, your schtick about hating pastors and assuming that we are all getting rich off of poor and sometimes ignorant Christians is getting old. When you come up with the goods on Rick W or Greg L, then you will have credibility but to say the things you say without having any facts makes you look like a fool. You and your jands looks silly!
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funny guys, that’s what happens when you have big fingers typing on a S3, gonna get the S4, my boss msays it is more typing friendly. Josh, your just a whiny man child so really have no room to talk. MLD, your posts are about as inspiring as 2 day old bird poop.
Covered,
I don’t hate Pastors, have had one really good one from my old youth group and another one that was a solid teacher at four sqaure. Just get sick of celebrity pastors acting like they are the “IT” and people drinking their kool aid. Also I will call crap out when i see it. No one calls out Greg on his GreenBay life fest or on Rick for his watering down of the gospel and his weak ass prayer at Obamas inauguration.
Sol Rod,
” Rick for his watering down of the gospel ”
Can you tell me how he waters down the gospel? Does he not preach that salvation is by faith alone? Does he not preach that salvation comes through the work of Christ alone? Does he not preach that you must trust in Jesus to be saved?
If he does preach that, what is he watering down?
Or is it when he asks you to raise your jands if you want to receive Jesus? 😉
I have big Jands
What is a whiny man child? You fat-fingered freak.
So I’m an anal retentive, whiny man child?
And you have jingers like sausages.
But that’s all good. I don’t much like Rick warren either, but not because he holds jands with Satanists. I just think he’s shallow and more inspirational speaker than Gospel preacher. He kinda invented the consumer church. I don’t think he’s going to Hell, but I’m not going to model a ministry after him either.
Josh, a little thin skinned aren’t we? I think you proved my point. Your typical of those who can dish it out but not take it. You cried like a little girl when Alex made light of a brain anyurism you had but yet you joyously mocked my spelling, what a hypocrite you are. I may spell like crap but I’m also Regional Manager of a Legal Company bro!
Josh,
Maybe if my hands were as delicate as yours I could go without misspelling words
Sol,
You need a time out.
Solomon, even a jerk like yourself should know that mocking someone with aneurysm is off limits. London is right, you need a time out. I just lost all respect for you. “you cried like a little girl when Alex made light of your brain aneurysm…” You are way out of bounds.
“Regional Manager of a Legal Company” who was that intended to impress?
I guess the same people yall try to impress with your theological degrees and all that seminary training or the latest book you read
Covered,
You think I care if a guy hiding behind a moniker respects me
You owe Josh an apology.
Yes you absolutely do!
You guys are right that was low
Josh,
I do ask you to forgive me for that comment about the anyurism. Also for the Regional Manager thing, that was arrogant
Sol, It’s all good. I was having fun with you. I thought with your # 93 you were in on the joke. I apologize too. I’m sure if we were all sitting around in person, we could joke about jands, and fat-fingers and everyone would get the joke. Sometimes it is hard to gauge those sorts of things on a blog.
The aneurysm was devastating and I regret having shared the prayer request three years ago. I never imagined it would have been used to mock me over and over on multiple blogs for years after.
And yes, I cried like a little girl, my own little girl to be exact. Hard to get her reaction out of my head when she though she was losing her daddy.
Praise God, He wasn’t done with me yet. The last visit with the brain surgeon, who has a huge God complex, he checks me out, makes a weird face and says, “You have some kind of supernatural healing powers.” He was joking, but he was right.
I say all that, Solomon, to let you know that, yes, it is a good cheap shot that works very well. You can throw it out with no though, and it burns me to the core. I’s just ask that you refrain, if possible, Ok?
And again, I appreciate the apology.
Assistant TO the Regional Manager.
Good job, gentlemen.
Yet, Josh and others have no problem mocking my situation, which is equally hurtful.
I call bullshit. Folks do what they want, when they want and they see things their way and have huge blind spots.
I accept this and I’ve learned to develop a thick skin and deal with it in like manner when some cross the line. Don’t dish it, if you can’t take it.
Have I mocked your situation?
Yup, many times.
I have questioned MANY things about your situation. I don’t recall mocking, at all.
Oh, OK, I don’t recall mocking your situation either.
…i was questioning your ability to process info or something. But not “mocking”.
Alright. You win. Who cares.
Never argue with someone who’s goal is not seeking truth, but to win the argument.
-unknown
“Assistant TO the Regional Manager.”
yeah until recently I was the assistant too but got promoted and it has taken much of my time which is why I don’t post as often.
Josh,
Yeah it was a cheap shot on my part. The flesh comes out. Yeah a blog or really anything such as text doesn’t really capture the mood all the time.
“You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.” –Ben Goldacre
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”–John Milton
SolRod,
I just had a thought. Since you keep kicking people who water down the gospel, I was wondering if you run into any Jews today – do you tell them they are blaspheming God if they participate in Yom Kippur services tonight?
I do.
Sol, in all seriousness, congrats on the promotion!
jamesk – wise words. I should heed them more often.
Just as the waters start to smooth, along comes MLD to stir things up. 😉
Thanks Josh!
MLD,
Haven’t ran into any today