No Alternative Truth: Duane W.H. Arnold, PhD
No Alternative Truth
A worrying aspect of the current era is that facts no longer seem to matter. Additionally, the evidence which lies behind facts is suspect, even if we have seen the evidence with our own eyes or heard it with our own ears.Ā As one person famously said, there are, it seems, āalternative factsā and, we must suppose, alternative evidence regardless of what we have actually seen and heard in real time.
There is, however, a problem with this approach, especially for those of us who name the name of Christ.Ā The difficulty is one of truth.
The New Testament places a high priority on truth as the basis for Christian faith.Ā How could it be otherwise as we place our faith in a person who claimed to be āthe way, the truth and the lifeā.Ā While the word ātruthā is used in a variety of ways in the New Testament, it tends to always carry with it a correspondence with reality and discernible facts within that reality. For the writers of the New Testament, as for the early Church, truth was singular.Ā That is to say, there was not an āalternative truthā.Ā Moreover, that singular truth was rooted in factā¦ “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.ā
There were of course instances, especially in the early Church, of those who attempted to present an alternative truth with alternative facts to back it up.Ā For instance, the Docetists created a whole system of theology around alternative facts claiming that Jesus only appeared to be human and that his human form was an illusion.Ā For the Docetists, you had to be let into the secret of this illusion to know the alternative truth.Ā You may think that you saw Jesus die upon the cross, but you canāt believe what you see.Ā You may think that you heard Jesus cry out, āIt is finishedā, but you canāt believe what you hear.Ā Only the initiated, of course, know this world of alternative truth and the alternative facts which lay behind it.
Although the early Church condemned this system of thought as heresy, it did not prevent Docetism from morphing into various forms of gnosticism with evermore complex myths and theological systems over the course of the first three centuries of the Christian era.
I have often wondered why certain Christians seem drawn to the apocalyptic portions of the Old and New Testament or, indeed, why some pastors and leaders seem to absolutely revel in making apocalyptic pronouncements and/or prophetic predictions.Ā The other day I scrolled through YouTube sampling what was on offer in this line of thinking.Ā I learned that Obama was the antichristā¦ as was Bidenā¦ as was Trumpā¦ The bear out of the North was definitely Russiaā¦ or maybe Iranā¦ or, how about, Azerbaijanā¦ The vaccine was the mark of the beastā¦ or maybe a microchip placed in the vaccine was the mark of the beastā¦ Oh no, that would make Bill Gates the antichrist! I saw pastors holding fireside chats making prophetic predictions about what was going to take placeā¦ unless you voted the way they thought you should.Ā I was also amazed at how many pastors were suddenly expert on constitutional law, Supreme Court rulings and, of course, legislative procedures; not to mention sociology expertise with regard to race, the place of women (almost always presented by men) and other such topics. Then there were the ones reminding their readers that they were undergoing persecutionā¦ by their cozy firesideā¦ with perfect studio lightingā¦ professional camera workā¦ and sending their message far and wide.Ā Itās hard to miss the irony.
Iām not sure any longer that the problem is one of agreeing on facts.Ā It seems to me that the problem is that we no longer can agree that truth is essential as the basis of our faith and, equally important, of our interactions with one another.Ā Speaking the truth in love seems to have been forgotten as a basic precept of Christian faith.Ā Instead one is offered āsecret knowledgeā and conspiracy theories which justifies anger and distrust of those who refuse to accept and/or believe the pronouncements of oneās particular groupā¦ or pastorā¦ or prophet.
There is a faith that was once delivered. That faith is based upon truth and is evidenced by love. There are no alternative facts. There is no alternative faith.Ā There is no alternative truth.
Duane,
Thank you for expressing clearly what I’ve been trying to say for a while now.
This is the problem that will end us…
Michael
If we can’t agree that truth matters, I’m not really sure where we can go…
So what is a fact? Is Genesis 1-10 factual? How? What is truth? Is revelation truth? Is the scientific method truth? Is it infallible truth? Is testimony truth? Shall I trust the facts about what happened to George floyd and what are those facts. This post is important – it is central but… I have seen plenty of conversations with alternative facts here. I have seen little appeal to authority.
This post is epistemological, it is rhetorical, it is conflicting and confusing. The pastors you cite are all living within their factual worlds. They all have eschatologies which are interpretive of ‘facts.’ I am not being adversarial here. My appeal is honest and sincere. Let me reduce it.
What is true/truth?
What is a fact?
How can we know?
Even the faith once delivered will find us groping for agreement.. .
But I will agree there is truth and it can be known.
BD,
Those are legitimate questions, but I would say that there is more to it.
My contention is that those riding the political/eschatological bandwagon do not do so from a place of alternative factual worlds, but from profit and popularity motives.
In the case of current events, we are subject to partial truths…which end up being a distortion of the whole truth.
I have lived long enough now to see gossip do its damage. If we haven’t seen it with our own eyes – carnal or spiritual – should we not be skeptical? Not in denial, but withholding affirmation?
Hmmm
God keep (He does and He will – praise Him indeed)
Ok let’s simplify
Isn’t this just the inheritance of postmodernity. Facts don’t exist, Truth is relative. Teaching is convincing people to a viewpoint or not since actually that is politics.
Isn’t the beginning point for us the revelation of God in Christ? Aren’t we the people whose foundation is apostles and prophets? (Not charismatic types)
I see postmodernity in our conversations daily.
“Isnāt the beginning point for us the revelation of God in Christ? Arenāt we the people whose foundation is apostles and prophets? ”
Yes and yes… Not a truth of our own devising for the sake of argument or expediency.
A few observations:
My educational background/work experience is in engineering and the physical sciences (at the graduate level), which is why I tend to very harsh on those who tout conspiracy theories regarding RFID microchips, 5G causing COVID, and the COVID/masking conspiracy ideas. Especially those from the pulpit who should stick to theology.
Science and engineering build on discoveries, facts, and truths from the past. A perfect example is the relation between Einstein’s laws and Newton’s Laws. At speeds much less than the speed of light, the relativistic effects are many orders of magnitudes smaller and can only be detected by high-tech measuring equipment. So for all intents and purposes, Newton’s Laws apply.
But even today, you have pastors and bloggers who don’t believe in Laws of Relativity nor the Germ Theory of Disease. Not to mention Reptile People, pedophilia rings in the basement pizza places, stolen elections, and so on
The sad thing is this is not the first time around in the Evangelical community:
9/11 was an Inside Job and the Towers collapsed due to planted charges?
Mike Warnke and the Satanic Child Sacrifice hoax?
The Proctor & Gamble logo hoax?
Satanic lyrics when records were played backwards?
Michael Gorbachov is the Anti-Christ (you know because of the birth mark on his head?
There are many others.
BD,
We do indeed see the effects of post modernity…but the larger problem is simply a sinful desire to be right or confirm an agenda.
You used George Floyd…I’ll use Dr.Seuss.
The real story is that T. Geisler’s estate has chosen not to publish 6 books out of a sixty plus book canon.
They did this on their own.
Facebook posters somehow indict Joe Biden in this “crime”.
More near my heart, I’ve watched conservative media out and out lie about immigration and migrant issues for twenty years…creating a toxic narrative that facts can’t overcome.
The beginning point should be the revelation of God in Christ…but it’s closer to 1776…
“The pastors you cite are all living within their factual worlds. ”
Or, they are living in a fantasy of their own making which changes as expediency and the times demand…
Michael,
The irony is that so-called conservatives are the ones you say the property owners (in this case the owner’s of Geisler’s IP – his estate) should be allowed to do what they want with their property.
How is this different that Francine Rivers (a Christian fiction writer) who wrote secular romance novels before her conversion buying back the publishing rights so they can’t be released again? Yet you didn’t see so-called Christians complaining about that.
CM
As per the 9/11 truthers…did you know of the writings of David Ray Griffin a professor at Claremont Divinity School and co-founder of the Center for Process Studies? It would be hard to find a more ironic twist than Griffin retiring from his position with Process Theology to engage with his academic prowess the Truther claims. Not advocating his work just commenting. Dread is no Truther.
As for the Francine Rivers comment — self-retractions are not the same as a foundation retracting their author’s work — The complainant voices I am hearing are almost all secular and academic. This poetic lament is BRILLIANT https://youtu.be/eSvtGz6LjN8
The work of private organizations practicing the ban needs to go through the process of civil liberties challenges in court. Banning writings seems to me to be far more egregious than refusing service but, that is a debate to be had.
FWIW….
Conservative is not a bad thing to be….
It goes well with the Faith IF its secular application doesn’t dominate….
IMNSHO. .š
Good thread here, hope it continues
Now I’m off to set up some powers of attorney – praying i pass before they re needed.. LOL
Duane @ 8:58 I should have simply included the quote marks… on ‘factual worlds’ that was my intent
Em,
There is nothing at all wrong with traditional conservatism.
What we have today are distortions of both traditional conservatism and liberalism…
BD
No problem. By the way, as a bit of trivia, the term ‘postmodernism’ was first used by Bernard Bell in his work, ‘Postmodernism and Other Essays’. Bell was an Anglican priest in the Anglo-Catholic tradition. He suggested that the solution to postmodernism was orthodox creedal Christianity …
BD,
If the estate OWNS the copyright (which it does) then they can decide what to do with it. Whether to license it, publish it or do nothing. You are not required to publish or even license it. There is no debate on this anymore than a bunch of bloggers demand you open up your liquor cabinet and spread the liquid courage around. Finally, who laments this decision is immaterial .
Off for a bit to get my first vaccination…
Duane,
Which one are you getting?
Duane,
Good on you!
I’m getting my first on Friday of this week.
My wife got her first one a few days ago. She’s doing fine…
Glory to Gpd!
I am surprised conservatives are so outraged about the Geisel estate deciding to pull some of the Dr.Suess books. Geisel and his family lived right here is San Diego where I live. La Jolla, to be exact, and there are frequent newspaper articles about him and the legacy he and his family would like to pass down to future generations of children! His family is very interested in keeping the Dr. Suess books popular and relevant for the next generation. His estate has made this decision and it was a sound business decision. What happened to Republicans defending the rights of a business in America? Ultimately, this was a business deciscion. Each generation of children in the U.S. Is more and more racially diverse. The Suess estate is tailoring their offerings for the next generation – they should be applauded for being so forward thinking. To me this is just another example of the manufactured outrage churned up by the conservative outrage machine. Everything is part of some “culture war” in their imaginations it seems.
One of the statements that has always scared me is āspeak your truth.ā Is it the actual truth, or your interpretation of it?
Persecutions…
I was taking a stroll down memory lane the other day and looked up some old Calvary friends, just to see how they were doing.
One ranted and ranted about taxes.
Next post: she’s exulting over the enormous fully-equipped SUV she just bought.
Just about everyone in the US has more freedom and more “stuff” than many people on the planet at any time in history. Even those living on public assistance usually have electronics and all the food they can eat. (There are homeless people, but that’s a complicated subject for another time.) Yet a certain set of people are always crying that they are being over-taxed and that they are losing their freedoms and it’s almost the Soviet Union in the 1930’s over here. Many of them do their complaining on FB or Twitter which is free for them to use, yet they complain bitterly about FB and Twitter.
So once again I say, people should lose the resentment and griping and become more grateful.
George Floyd:
He’s dead: Fact
He had a cop’s shin on his neck lying on the ground handcuffed for around 8 minutes: Fact
He was alive when the cop kneeled on his neck: Fact.
He was unresponsive when the cop got up: Fact.
He was black: Fact.
He was a human being: Fact.
He was an American citizen entitled to his constitutional rights, including due process and equal protection, as white male citizens: Fact.
Is there any case(s) of a white man being similarly treated by the police in the modern era?
Despite the fact that the video shows no noticeable resistance by Floyd once on the ground, is there a way to add additional restraint to an unarmed, handcuffed, suspect lying on his belly on the ground besides than kneeling on his neck? Of course there is: Fact.
Yes, there is truth and there is evidence from which facts can be deduced.
The Dr. Seuss matter is a red herring. Someone’s sensitivity to biased speech is by nature subjective. It often takes the feedback from communities which have suffered from racial bias to sensitize communities who have no such experience to how words come across and are received (Governor Cuomo is discovering this right now). Subjective experience is not a bad thing and should not be dismissed or discouraged, but it is not the same thing as truth or facts, which are objective.
Would you consciously hurt someone emotionally by your words that you might otherwise believe are innocuous, if you discovered that they were hurtful to a historically discriminated against community, based on some prior history that you are unaware of?
The owners of the copyrights to the Dr. Seuss books apparently (and I don’t know the whole story) felt that it would do more harm than good to publish a small number of the titles out of deference to a community. Was the progress of our nation harmed by the decision?
Xenia,
The problem is that those who play that persecution card not only have any idea what real persecution is, they also cheapen the meaning and distract from those who are actually being killed and tortured and imprisoned. It sullies the name of everyone who has actually been persecuted.
All to play the victim, woe-is-me, it is not my fault card. Get your followers to bark like trained seals, get the internet hits and likes, retweets, and so on. But then their former Orange Dear Leader played that card all the time. No better than the whiny proggie snowflakes on TEAM BLUE.
Xenia,
I’ll scream the amen!
Well said!
Jean
“Is there any case(s) of a white man being similarly treated by the police in the modern era?”
According to John McWhorter — YES
“Tony Timpa was 32 years old when he died at the hands of the Dallas police in August 2016. He suffered from mental health difficulties and was unarmed. He wasnāt resisting arrest. He had called the cops from a parking lot while intoxicated because he thought he might be a danger to himself. By the time law enforcement arrived, he had already been handcuffed by the security guards of a store nearby. Even so, the police officers made him lie face down on the grass, and one of them pressed a knee into his back. He remained in this position for 13 minutes until he suffocated. During the harrowing recording of his final moments, he can be heard pleading for his life. A grand jury indictment of the officers involved was overturned.”
https://quillette.com/2020/06/11/racist-police-violence-reconsidered/
This point factors significantly into the opening discussion about TRUTH and FACTS
I’ll wait to be told why this one doesn’t count.
“Is there any case(s) of a white man being similarly treated by the police in the modern era?”
Multiple…including at least two in my own little community last year.
The number of Hispanics killed or injured by the BP dwarfs both numbers…
Let me clear that I’m very pro police…having spent many days and nights riding around with them, I have nothing but respect for most.
But every cop will tell you that within a department there’s always a couple of rogues…
I’m going to follow up at some point on Xenia’s comment.
I’ve been waking up feeling blessed just to still be here…and I’m real tired of all the other stuff…
BD,
I asked the question, did not posit a fact. Where I posited facts, I said so.
What you’ve added with your anecdote, assuming it’s true and comparable (to me there’s a difference between a kneed to the back and a knee to the neck, since the latter is directly related to breathing and is a very vulnerable area of the body), is that the problem within many police departments is bigger than solely a racial bias.
Also, the fact that police involved in misconduct seem to be incredibly difficult to convict is evidence that there’s something wrong with the qualified immunity or other standards of justice which seem to apply to police officer conduct. It seems that little has changed for the better since the Rodney King acquittals in 91-92.
Well, the Pfizer vaccine is in the arm with no ill effects… very thankful…
Duane,
You won’t know for sure until you pass two tests: (1) tonight be alert to dreams about Bill Gates, and (2) tomorrow when you go to the market, will you be invited to buy or sell stuff that previously you couldn’t? If you don’t suffer either of these symptoms, the chances are you just got a safe and effective vaccination.
Michael
One of the things about ‘truth’ is that it is not about a misplaced loyalty. There are good police and there are some bad actors. In university departments where I have taught, we knew those faculty members who had inappropriate contacts with students. #MeToo has been long overdue. We have come to the place, however, when admitting the truth of an action, calls into question one’s loyalty, or one’s regard for all police, or all educators. It does not. Until we can recognize that truth is good and right in and of itself, we will never get out of this downward spiral. For myself, I cannot defend that which is indefensible out of misplaced loyalty. BTW, as you know, I had to learn this the hard way…
Jean
I’ll look for the signs š! It looks like it’s a good thing that I’m Mac and not PC…
Rofl!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/12/11/pastors-covid-vaccine-skeptics/
Been thinking about this and the recent study Michael just posted an article that cities the study. This just infuriates me to no end that some people, my flock that I associate with…white Evangelicals…have turned off their minds and no longer practice discernment a la The Bereans. Now Facebook and twitter and (mostly) ***right-wing opinion, I mean, news, outlets are their main source of social and cultural input.
Back in 1999 when I worked as a news/weather Producer at a large-market TV station, I had to deal with those who said that you could balance an egg on its end on the equinox. This is partly true and misleading. You can actually do this on ANY day of the year. You just have to have a steady hand and level-surface.
I bring this up because āfake newsā, alternative facts, etc, is not really new, but it is unfortunately, like a pandemic, spreading uncontrollably through the Church.
***You know damn well itās mostly right-wing media!!!
I say as a conservative and mostly Republican-voter, so can the āyou leftistā talk.
I think Michael’s Washington Post piece accurately tells the dangers of paying heed to the wrong sources WRT the pandemic. It can be life or death! I wonder what’s become of this SB pastor. At first I thought maybe he could find a different church, but his church has 2000 members, plus I get the feeling that a great many SB congos are antimask, but I could certainly be wrong. If that is the case, changing churches really won’t help him WRT maskwearing.
I think as time goes by, we’re seeing more and more how tragic it has been that this whole thing was politicized. Very, very tragic, esp. for some.
So Google has a political value system?
Bob1…thatās one of my frustrations, is that many people politicize EVERYTHING. I am not sure when my time will arrive for a vaccine, because of my weight/BMI, I most likely will take it, and Bill Gatesā microchips/Mark of the Beast be d___d!
Working in meteorology (an applied science), I could come up with more examples of false beliefs that people hold to about climate/weather/etc. I am sure CM has also heard his fair share too! What is scary is how some people cannot abandon their beliefs that are not founded in facts. I know in the area of meteorology, there are not that many consequences to holding to some beliefs, but when it comes to our current Pandemic, listen to those who know what they are talking about.
Gaaaah. I did it myself…politicized something, then complained how people politicize everything.
My bad.
Dan,
Ever dabble or run across zny Computational Fluid Dynamics studies or calculations for weather behavior/modelling?
Dan,
An even better is the one where the drain vortex of a sink or toilet is in the opposite direction in the Southern Hemisphere. Here is the answer to this one:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-somebody-finally-sett/
I think almost all of our church has been vaccinated now. I’m hanging on for my turn…
Careful Michael,
That tiny RFID in the vaccine shot will transmit your whereabouts to the orbiting satellite run by the Bilderbergers (who are ran by the Stonecutter’s Guild (HT: The Simpsons)).
Of course all those pushing this RFID are perfectly fine with their social media meta-data and their smartphones (which transmits your location).
Paranoid? Can the Church manifest it? AND when does it become reality?
CM,
Ahhh the old Northern vs. Southern Hemisphere drain controversy. You did see The Simpsons tackled that one before? Actually was glad that the article you posted did focus on the Coriolis force, which indeed is practically negligible (unimportant) for short-duration events. This we did cover extensively in college when studying the equations of motion and their applications – basically all the forecast that act on a parcel of air, and whether nor not they are important in certain situations. Iāll read the article tonight.
I have not done anything with CFD, but have considered studying it on my own a bit. I would think that the mathematics involved it beyond what we were required to study for our undergrad program. CFD is basically what computer modeling of weather systems is all about.
There are people, and I would say some Christians, who DO believe the conspiracy theories about the pandemic and vaccines. I have come across these folk on some Christian news sites, proclaiming that this is a ātest runā on controlling the population, for example.
Regardless, pandemics are a part of human history. The Black Plague, The Spanish Flu, AIDS (yes, that is a pandemic), Covid-19. Pandemics happen regardless of who has money, who is running for the White House, etc.
If I may MISquote Sigmund Freud (likely never said it) āsometimes a pandemic is just a pandemicā…
CM,
Did you have to study CFD for work or college?
Xenia wrote:
“So once again I say, people should lose the resentment and griping and become more grateful.”
Some of the best wisdom I’ve heard on any forum in a long while…
The non black shootings don’t get as much publicity. Like Daniel Shaver, unarmed, shot in the back, dead.
Dr. Suess is a great example of differing perceptions. Memes going around that he’s “cancelled.” No. We just had Dr. Suess week at our only 5% (if that) school.
Even as a kid, I thought the Chinese character cringworthy though I’d posit that for the time it might have not been inaccurate. I live in a heavily populated Asian enclave, and regularly see people with those hats, and of course eating rice with chopsticks (so do we when eating out, as I took the family for Pho yesterday), but it’s dated, and certainly is a stereotype.
The backlash is a bit justified. Latinos bristled at canceling Speedy Gonzales,so WB backed off. And no Latino I know thinks that “Latinx” is nothing more that white people whiting and disrespecting their language.
PepĆ© Le Pew? Cancelled! My mom didn’t let me watch Looney Tunes, but when I did, I don’t recall the skunk being portrayed positively, but maybe he needs to be cancelled…
Dan,
I studied in grad school some of the analogs in solid mechanics (like finite element analysis and continuum mechanics), though the mathematics is very similar. Of course when you are dealing with air (and other gases) you have compressible flow (something that does not happen when you have deformation of solid materials).
CM,
Cool. I wish I had taken more math than I did. I did take an engineering statistics course, C++, and Linear Algebra. I would have liked to delve more into fluid dynamics. I do have an interest in fluid flow, mainly boundary layers and vortex phenomena. If I were to be an engineer, I would have gone into Aerospace Engineering. Any recommendations for books on CFD?
Muff and Xenia…just saw that comment about gratefulness. Amen. I was kinda cranky yesterday. Sometimes I think it would be great for all of us to share a meal and a few (safe) drinks together and see each other more as people and humans instead of combatants and enemies.
Dan,
I can’t think of any books on CFD right now. I will have to do some digging.
As an interesting aside, particle and aerosol science researchers are using CFD to model the effects of masks (type, material, design, etc.) on the dispersion of droplets due to speaking, breathing, sneezing, and coughing. In both inside and outside environments. There have been a good number of papers on that.
Which by the way, the anti-maskers never seem to address.
“Which by the way, the anti-maskers never seem to address.”
They don’t care. Can we just get our arms around that? They believe their God given freedoms permit them to propagate invisible pathogens wherever they like. No amount of science will Trump their version of freedom.
Jean,
I guess that bit about loving your neighbor as yourself gets kicked to the curb in name the of their freedom to be a Typhoid Mary.
The Way, the Truth and the Life.
Truth has lost its punch. We are lied to openly and obviously and the lies are winning. Men such as Ravi, with his compelling, convincing truths is a symbol of Christianity gone wrong. Post-moderns mock at ātruthā and authority and call it all false. Much of my life was marinated in truth. Great teaching, much study, Greek, Hebrew and the whole seminary thing. However, the life was flickering and I was not walking in the way. By Godās grace, He saved me from this. Our truth will not have an impact unless the Way and the Life demonstrate transformation and power over sin in us. This is truth lived out.
CM,
Their definition of neighbor is incredibly narrow.
Thanks CM! No surprise researchers are using CFD to model face masks and flow in/around them. I was certain they would have just asked certain know-it-all pastors who know the science of face masks because they read the abstract of one journal article…
But anyways, CFD is used to model a wide range of interesting phenomena. I came across one article that used CFD to model air flow around large forest fires and how they move.
I was looking through CFD book on Amazon and came across a few titles that may be good.
The Simpsons examined the angular momentum of a pinched loaf in a rotating frame of reference?
I’m all for scientific examination, but not if it interferes with a sacrosanct….don’t look down moment. Some things are meant to be a mystery. The Synod of Dort warned us of examination of the mysterious. I think the Cannons stated it twice.
On a Universal scale, I have concluded our entire World is a product of mass, rotation and charge. It’s been about a century since quantum field theory emerged. I’m not sure how many are ready to go from theory to a concept of action system and function.
Something that helped give me a better perspective on being grateful during struggles is a piece of Orthodox poetry called “The Akathist for Thanksgiving.” It was written by a Christian who was in the Soviet Gulag at the time. In this poem, which is sung at many EO parishes on Thanksgiving Day, he thanks God for everything he can think of: snowflakes, berries, little critters, new born babies, Church feast days, even being blessed to be in the presence of a saintly person as their soul flies up to heaven on their death bed. This Akathist really had/has an impression on me. No mention of the evil Stalin in the whole thing, either.
It’s The Akathist OF Thanksgiving: Glory to God for All Things.
https://tinyurl.com/4jbv4dm9
Jim V.
“This is truth lived out….”
Agreed, and faith is lived out in a similar manner, that is, by sacrificial love…
An Anglican priest friend of mine is a missionary in Nigeria. He regularly writes about the violence inflicted on Christians in the hinterlands. Some of his seminary students have died in their first parishes. Nevertheless, he show gratitude to God…
“Whenever I hear from you- or even think of you- whether in Europe or Asia or America, I feel less ‘an island.’ And my heart fills with gratitude. My prayer is that God has placed many people in your lives who are doing the same for you- and that above all you are richly blessed by the connection with a loving God who can make these trying times more bearable simply by his presence…”
Humor
I recall when my scientist husband and i were dating – i had very little curiosity about physics and i told him that i felt kind of guilty – like i was peeking under God’s skirt… š
You should have gotten him one of these T-shirts
https://www.teeshirtpalace.com/products/and-god-said-formula-t-shirt?color=black&size=L&gclid=Cj0KCQiA1pyCBhCtARIsAHaY_5dxd-q0-Obe473WbJcPPpjnlzKGuGaWgaH0vSn6EeLTQUz2Ih6GyJoaArM5EALw_wcB
Ha! I actually bought a shirt similar to that at the Science Museum of Minnesota long ago.
Duane,
It would be nice to see actual links to the YouTube sampling. Are these people with large followings are they pastors…? I have a hunch they would be easily seen as crazy’s.
It seems like many times here on this blog it’s hearsay, like my friend on Facebook or Evangelicals I know, and then some story to put a whole swath of people into a bad light. Evangelicals seem to be a main target.
I know many Evangelicals (granted most probably really don’t know what to call themselves anymore and not because of Trump) that are rational good people willing to listen to other points of view that love Christ and their neighbor but may not share the same political views as many here.
As a side note, If pre-mill/pre-trib eschatology is correct would it be crazy to think we would see precursors to some of those things?
And would it really be insane to not trust people like Bill Gates or scientists with conflicts of interest?
Just an observation.
DH
I didn’t share the links as I have no desire to assist in the propagation of such craziness. Most of those I sampled had between 4,000 and 40K views. They are not hard to find…
I have no problem with those who might hold another political view. I do have a problem with those who hold a political view and consider it to be a singular expression of the faith.
As to conflicts of interest, not insanity if such conflicts are proven and documented. Something which at least for myself, I have not seen. Accusation is not the same thing as proof…
DH
The current state of Dispensationism/Pre-Trib Rapture is a rejection of it’s own core beliefs. Having been steeped in this goe part of my childhood, it’s stunning to watch. Disp is predicated on a pessimistic view of man, religion and historical flow. Trumpism is it’s opposite.
This cognitive dissonance is inexplicable. Disp cleary rejects any motion that man can improve his lot (Make America Great Again). The whole purpose of Pre-Trib was to escape and abandon this World. The blessed..and only hope. The idea of a late age messianic figure, was explicitly identified as the AntiChrist.
Nathan,
You noticed that too.
Many of the biggest dispy pastors and ministries in celebrity Christianity are some of the biggest Trumpists. As you said, it is amazing the cognitive dissonance does make their heads explode.
New Victor’s comment about the China man’s hat in Dr. Seuss’s book – yes, cringeworthy, now. Our daughter lives in In Oahu, Hawaii. There is an iconic island off the shore there called ‘China Man’s Hat’ because there is a tall, peaked mountain on the small island that is visible from the mainland. I supposes that will become controversial soon as well! I have to admit, I was a bit stunned at the name when I visited there! We are, as a nation, striving ” for a more perfect union” in the words of our forefathers … what’s wrong with striving for a kinder, more gentler society? I watched the Megan and Prince Harry interview with Oprah Winfrey and I cringed when they shared with Oprah that concern was the expressed by the royal family about ” how dark” their unborn child would be. My daughter is married to a man with a white mother and a black father, so I
especially cringed hearing that awful revelation revealed by Prince Harry’s wife. She looked so traumatized and sad by the treatment she received from the royal family. Really, people, we CAN be better than that, can’t we? Maybe the Geisell estate throwing out a few racially insensitive children’s books is a start towards that ” more perfect union” our nation’s forefathers hoped for.
Duane,
I understand not wanting to promote these loony’s by posting their Youtubes but I think most of the commenters here would recognize that they are whacko and I’d like to think most of the readers here would also or least see what and who your talking about and be warned.
As far as conflicts of interest the proof is there if you are interested enough to look (why should a government worker be allowed to patent their work while getting paid by us? It’s the same as John Macarther getting paid a second time for his sermons being put into a study bible). And what makes Bill Gates an expert on anything, even his software had too many flaws to even count.
I still think if we are going to take swats at a huge group of people it should have some examples of proof rather than what I saw on media or someone said something on Facebook or this CC person I know said…
I’m not questioning anyone’s integrity but our standards should be higher than that imo.
I trust Duane’s take. I see no need to encourage the wackos.
the proof is there if you are interested enough to look
Why go down a rabbit hole of wackadoodleism in the first place? You can say that about damn near anything — if you look hard enough, voila! You’ll find “the truth.” Not true.
bob1,
You just proved my point.
Wow.
That’s too cryptic for my pea brain.
Care to explain?
Nathan Priddis,
I think all theologies have some dispensationalism in them and all systematic theologies logically fail when compared to the bible and some sooner than others.
I don’t think Dispensationalists think we can’t improve our situation but we can’t achieve utopia without Jesus and even then it will break down until the new heaven and earth.
Pretty sure they also believe every nation should improve themselves as much as possible and hold rogue countries to count.
I believe many of them think the future is going to be tremendously prosperous but without God.
If your eschatology is different you won’t have the same view. That’s really the major tension.
DH
Those who comment here are a minuscule portion of the readership. As Michael reminds me, we really write for the “lurkers”. I have no desire to expose them to what I can only call heterodoxy…
Dan,
Here is an interesting Wiki on KƔrmƔn Vortex Sheets and a couple of pictures showing this in the atmosphere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_vortex_street
CM,
Thanks for the link. Fascinating stuff. I think I have seen these on satellite a few times over the ocean. I like the tie-in to engineering issues also. I took a boundary layer meteorology class in college, and we covered things like this…flow around obstacles.