I disagree with the HuffPo article G posted last night to a degree. I don’t think there are less Christians in America today. Oh, the percentage is lower due to immigrations etc – but the actual numbers… no.
Look, back in the 50s you had to call yourself a Christian to (1) be respectable and (2) to get ahead in life. So, everyone “called” themselves Christians. That is why the preaching of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller could be so popular – it didn’t have to include Christ – it was like a modern day Dr. Phil, Oprah or tony Robbins.
Today, there are no requirements to “call” yourself a Christian – in fact no one blinks an eye if you call yourself an atheist or a Buddhist. So, the “fakers” have dropped the facade and say “nope, I’m not a Christian” – and the press gets all happy.
But I am sure that numerically, there are more Christians today than mid 20th century.
MLD is correct (i was there :rollL:) – it WAS a respectability issue, as was marriage & fidelity (my heart aches for Patraeus if indeed what is public is the sum and substance of it)
those “nominal” Christians were everywhere, even in Lutheranism … and that does make the case for the assertion: “America is a Christian nation” heard from some quarters today
i confess that i seldom link on the links in comments unless someone comments on one of them … good Huffington Post article – the author got a more positive comment from his mother when he announced that he’d become a Christian than i did from mine …
Found some love for those who voted for Obama at World Nuts Daily. Not only this, but there’s an article about Louisiana residents who want to secede from the Union. Wow.
“In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, are sharing a collective thrill.”
Here’s another gift of love to those who voted Democratic on Tuesday, This from a former Ron Paul aide and a libertarian.
“All family and friends, even close family and friends, who I know to be Democrats are hereby dead to me. I vow never to speak to them again for the rest of my life, or have any communications with them. They are in short, the enemies of liberty. They deserve nothing less than hatred and utter contempt.”
“I strongly urge all other libertarians to do the same. Are you married to someone who voted for Obama, have a girlfriend who voted ‘O’. Divorce them. Break up with them without haste. Vow not to attend family functions, Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas for example, if there will be any family members in attendance who are Democrats.”
You know it runs both ways. My daughter is up visiting my brother’s family. Now to set the scene my brother always thought Ted Kennedy was a conservative and thinks Obama isn’t liberal enough. He and his family live in Davis CA which is a liberal stronghold.
So my daughter called and said that her cousin (my brothers son) who is 35, rode over from his house on his bike, saw my daughter, and yelled at her that she was a @#$%%^ Republican – turned around on his bike and went home.
Well, I don’t – but it’s funny, 2 yrs of campaigning, $2 Billion spent, all the House and a third of the Senate up for re election along with the President – and nothing changed.
We could have skipped it all and we are right where we started.
Nate Silver, the NY Times statistics guy,, can write his own ticket. He’s the man. He gave O a 90% chance of a win. The pundits? Naw, not so much. Follow at your own peril.
Ho hum, another James MacDonald scandal. Seems he, as well as the church’s CFO, likes hitting the casinos, but at least his minions have an interesting definition of gambling that leaves out poker. My wife says it reminds her of “what the definition of is is”.
i have had a comfortable life, i am warm and well fed and i am grateful to the Military for their part in that …
General Patraeus? is he a professing Christian? Could any healthy man in his 50s in that position of responsibility and the madness of that area of the world have resisted a gorgeous, healthy woman who was embedded (no pun intended, but the jokesters will pounce) at his side for a full year – to write his biography – at best, it was wrong headed thinking, at worst it was a plot to bring him down …
tonight I salute those in harms way trying to do the right thing and also i thank God that a little boy named James has folks around him who love our Lord
Back to the election — a thorough CBS News article tells how it is that the Romney camp got the polling numbers wrong and their candidate was ‘shellshocked’ when returns starting coming in on Tuesday night. I think this is one that will be studied in college Poli. Sci. classes and future presidential campaigns for a long time.
Money quotes:
‘How did the Romney team get it so wrong? According to those involved, it was a mix of believing anecdotes about party enthusiasm and an underestimation of their opponents’ talents.’
‘If you’re basing your entire campaign on white people, it leaves you little margin of error. That’s where Romney’s troubles as a candidate hurt him.’
MLD, there are a few school teachers here on the blog, including yours truly. I’m trying not to be offended by your #14, since I realize that you often paint with a really broad brush.
Kevin,
Sorry for the offense. I don’t know what it is like in AZ but in CA the “teachers” led by their unions are raping the tax payer to fund their pension plans under the guise of “save the schools / save the children” tax initiatives – which is why I included “union leader” in my nephews description.
G @26 … i sounded somewhat insulting to the male character @24 and i apologize for that … it was one of those off the cuff broad brush statements that always get called out here and that’s a good thing
i don’t know the general and i’m sure not making excuses for him or putting the blame on that writer … but they say that we all have our breaking point and we all have our price … maybe some don’t – ever
the “military industrial complex” and the education systems today are both bloated messes where a few unprincipled opportunists can take advantage of opportunities to get rich way beyond their worth to the system – i pray for the good soldiers and teachers to survive and win in the end for all our sakes
G., well, i too, “consider each and every word within our sacred texts to be dictated by the Holy Spirit ” … we just aren’t as good at interpreting and applying them as the Creator has given us the opportunity to do …
praying for all the absent ones here … especially the offended visitors … one thing the PhxP doesn’t do (although some think otherwise) is pander to anyone’s theories and conclusions …
i said i was gone and i almost am, but leaving pondering G.’s statement: ” i think we of the male gender still own a huge percentage of the responsibility of past and present abuses of power which exist within the religions and power structures of humanity”
i totally agree with that observation … however, i think it was a lack of strength and opportunity that kept my gender from behaving likewise in many cases … we need women of grace, like you have described your daughters to be, to set the example for the coming generations in the perhaps better, but very chaotic atmosphere ahead
Please, folks — do we really need the “N” word on here, in any way, shape or form? I think we can make our points without resorting to something so very ugly.
What about keeping things a little more dignified?
Lutheran,
It’s impossible to quote a contextual article without the use of the word. It offends my sensibilities to the core and as a person with white lineage I chose to bring this up to shock the readers into considering how our silent support of some of the outdated practices within our own religion are continuing to suppress women and destroy families.
Guys like the good general get a pass, a “boys will be boys” wink and nod while women during the last election were denigrated as “sluts” by a powerful bloted radio talks how host, and the luminaries within my religion applauded such shenanigans, and we’re soundly drummed out of their offices and Rush rightly suffers the loss of wonderful sponsors.
Back to the strategic use of the word, read the article, especially the fact that Dick Gregory & Ron Dellums’ supported Joko & John’s sentiment and performance of the song.
It’s an ugly word because treating women that way :: is :: ugly, and tht was precisely Yoko’s point in stating it ,and no amount of sanitizing the issue will remove the huge responsibility that people who are religious, especially we men, and people who are in power , usually men, are way too often the ones who institutionalize and perpetuate the destruction of womanhood and our own families by serial marriages with little or no regret.
Gents like the good general are far more destructive than any two gay or lesbian couples having a committed marriage.
The one who is forever and horrible hurt and injured here has a name, Holly Knowlton Petraeus
One more thing, I’m tired of pretending that each and every word within our sacred text should be applauded. Indeed, they are record of history and the thinking of those we read of, but there are things that simply must be called out as primitive.There is a reason thinking people read these texts and question and ask that some things be revered while other things be reviled, and the letters within the 2nd testament have some outstandingly misogynistic statements which, within their bronze age context, are completely understandable, but to say that they should be perpetuated, to say that the christian religion should tolerate the lack of women in leadership roles, especially the role of “pastor” simply perpetuates a line of reasoning that is cultural, not eternal. Jesus never demanded that women be marginalized or denied roles of leadership in His Kingdom.
I wonder if there had been more women pastors if we would read less of men abusing their children and congregations because women add a huge counterbalance to the extreme and violent power driven nature which we men tend to struggle with.
I’m of a similar age as you. I remember Lennon’s song and message and context pretty well. Maybe that’s why I thought it was unnecessary to refer to it as you did.
Lutheran,
There are plenty others who do not remember.
BrianD,
Really, moderation? Really? How quaint. Ok, do what you must, but that is totally missing the point and if you would prefer I rephrase the comment then you have my email and I respect your editing skills, being a journalist, so send me a revised draft and we can agree on something that will make Lutheran feel better while we can still make the point that we men are the ones who perpetuate women’s oppression and treat them, the world over, like the marginalized African American culture which white males created and that is still looked upon wistfully by some who call themselves “christian” while proudly waving the Confederate flag.
Em,
No problem, i think we of the male gender still own a huge percentage of the responsibility of past and present abuses of power which exist within the religions and power structures of humanity. As the father of two brilliant and capable women I despise the oppression that exists, especially in our American culture and institutions, and particularly the religious ones which refuse to evolve because they consider each and every word within our sacred texts to be dictated by the Holy Spirit directly to the pages of their KJVs.
Yoko Ono & John Lennon sang a song at which which polite company here would recoil in horror of because it contains a word which we consider scandalous, yet the word is entirely descriptive of how women are marginalized, even to this day
G,
You get further and further out on the limb as each day passes. How did you go from General P having a consensual affair with a West Point & Harvard grad who makes a lot more money than I do and turn this into somehow he was oppressing her in particular and how that now oppresses women all over the world in general?
Are you still smoking the same stuff your were smoking the day you heard John Lennnon sing that song?
“One more thing, I’m tired of pretending that each and every word within our sacred text should be applauded.”
I’ve never known you to pretend such a thing, G. But frankly, I’ll take the Bible over your (or anyone else) reasoning 100% of the time. I don’t have to rebuke the bible, the bible rebukes me. Perhaps some understanding of certain passages is imperfect, and certainly the application of said passages can cause problems. Still, that is a problem with the reader, not the text.
And moms and grandmoms can be just as abusive as any man.
So, Josh, you think Paul is right in denying women a pastoral role when it’s demonstrated that they are equals to men, are just as intelligent, far more nurturing?
So we can give the book a secondary place when dealing with eating shellfish, wearing clothing of mixed fabric, but we’ve gotta hold tight to an antiquated view that women will be saved though childbirth and that their place is to be silent?
I’m saying that you don’t understand the text and are reading it out of context. Paul himself said that women were equal to men. He spoke of women far above their cultural value in the first century.
Shellfish, etc, was all fulfilled in Christ. If you take the whole book in context, it tells you that.
Context also includes HISTORICAL context, as well as textual context. For the readers of that particular letter, in their local fellowship, yes, Paul said that women should not be pastors. However, at other times he applauds the work of women as fellow laborers in the Gospel.
Sure it is, but it was 30 years ago. The point is that women can be just as abusive as men, and men can be just as nurturing as women. Both are sexual stereotypes as outdated as men being smarter than women.
@ 59 – We should certainly continue the conversation. I won’t fault men who are honestly trying to live the scriptures the best way they can, but there are obviously men who abuse the position. Those should absolutely be called out immediately. If it is just a disagreement on the interpretation of scripture, but not an abuse issue, then we should appreciate the subtle differences among our brothers and continue to work towards the image of Christ.
No, the point is that religion, the one you and I practice, has a group of men who perpetuate the idea that only men should be teaching pastors, or that women should only teach other women, and that whatever Paul might say, you would fully advocate with me that all Christian denominations be known as Christ followers, one very important visible practice being their complete acknowledgement that women should be immediately allowed to be full pastor teachers, teaching both genders?
Josh,
So very sorry about what you suffered. That is horrible.
I will keep that in my heart, to know you better and what shaped you, and be sure to consider tht in how we interact. I’m glad you are here and work through so much of what we discuss
hey, wait a minute – my comment is in moderation? … it was an answer to what G had already said, quoting Yoko – well, i guess she does have more credibility than i, but … if there’s another word that says what that one does in commenting on the character flaw in the human race, give it to me and i’ll rewrite my # 33 thusly
“__*_ are everywhere and always have been – they are the victims of an evil strain that runs through the race of man … the “circle and sniff” crowd feel better when they can identify (and attack) some of their fellow man as “not like us” …
my draft copy of my latest effort on Lulu came today and i need to make myself do some editing before i die – a flowchart of the Revelation given to that Apostle way back there – it’s easier to just sit here and pontificate” and the ever popular :smilie:
Em,
It’s easier on our bud BrianD to describe in more words what we don’t like than to choose a word and a story that is concise but would offend sensibilities.
G., weel, maybe – and i do need help in being a better “writer” – i’m okay when i’m in the groove, but most of the time i just let the fingers fly and i type way faster than i think …
kind of interesting on the “love” thing … Christian men are commanded to do so where their wives are concerned – sometimes THAT takes a whole lot of virtue as some of us women are simply more lovable than others and even us lovable ones fluctuate, no matter how carefully you men select from among us 😆
what if, and i doubt that it’s true, Mrs. Patraeus is a very “unlovable” woman – he didn’t chose well and just can’t love that wife of his? does that give him a pass? … grace is a charming word and hard to carry out
Oh and for the record, i love BrianD – i am indebted to him for many interesting reads and he is welcome to deal with anything i say here as he deems necessary – as are the other hardworking moderators – usually i can just be ignored -i apologize for complicating things lately
Em,
I believe that is a false dichotomy perpetuated by those who want to slice the watermelon too thin. We’re all simply called by Jesus to love, plain and simple. Betrayal doesn’t act like love, never does responding to a spouse with similar coldness and distance. When there is distance the one who realizes it should pursue the distant one, do romantic, funny, kind and loving things to win him or her back, or make it their new and present goal.
Well, it might happen for a minute or so…right up until these old white folks realize they’ll no longer be getting Social Security or Medicare payments if they secede.
The article I’ve linked by David Frum is great, IMHO. If conservatives can overcome their “givers vs. takers” mentality. work with others and follow this guy’s advice,, I think our Union will be healthy for a long time.
I never knew that despair is a mortal sin in Catholicism. Those are the more serious sins, right?
It goes both ways – I remember 8 yrs ago & 4 yrs ago Alec Baldwin and a bunch of Hollywood libs threatening to make a mass exodus to Canada if Bush and then McCain won the election.
This is just standard fare. The weak minded are those who read of this and pass it along as if it matters.
we are a very different nation than what we were pre-Civil War, that war ended States’ rights – if you can’t go with the flow (majority rule), there’s no place within our borders to move to …
“If another Republican man says anything about rape other than it is a horrific, violent crime, I want to personally cut out his tongue… The college-age daughters of many of my friends voted for Obama because they were completely turned off by Neanderthal comments like the suggestion of ‘legitimate rape.'”
With this kind of thinking secession ain’t gonna happen…
“What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on Earth. The belief that our destiny is shared; that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another and to future generations.”
How did this site get taken over by left-wing nut jobs? Are you just flaunting that you can endorse the party of homosexuality and abortion and still call yourselves Christians? Strange.
I am am not an advocate of homosexuality or abortion and I will not counter with the sins I perceive in the opposing party.
I will only say that such labels have cost us enough…
Gee, PP Vet, a person cannot vote for a man who is part of a party, or a woman who is part of another party? Try this, most of us who were “GOP” became independents precisely because of the Neanderthals who hijacked that party and this time ’round we voted person by person, political contest by political contest, issue by issue. I will take a compassionate lesbian Atheist over a meddlesome jerk who doesn’t know when to shut up and just do the job of public service.
I am tired of those within my religion who demand that I believe gays are part of the reason hurricanes hit cities, or “self sufficiency” is why Japan got hit by a tsunami. These aren’t “acts of God”, they are natural disasters and the “acts of God” are the selfless acts of love which countless human beings, moved by God to reach out with acts of compassion demonstrate tangibly that God has not given up on us not yesterday in an election, not today in a city freezing and without power and not tomorrow when one of us is suffering and needs encouragement.
G,
“I am tired of those within my religion who demand that I believe gays are part…”
Since you seem to be of the religion of doubt, denial and deconstruction, I just wonder who you are speaking of when you say “those within my religion.”
There are millions and millions of American Christians who are also Democrats. You need to get out more. Millions of Catholics (including our current vice president), mainline Protestants and yes, horror of horrors, evangelicals and charismatics are Democrats.
MLD,
I only speak of “those” as the individuals who distinguish themselves by their blind insistence that God judges whole nations and peoples for the supposed misdeeds of a few. That is an archaic world view that ignores the complexities of life. Jesus warned repeatedly that a bad effect wasn’t directly linked to a bad cause. Shoddy built towers collapse on innocents, and when asked “who sinned” Jesus refocused the issue onto living in such a way that you’re in communion with God, moment by moment, ready for the inevitable end of Earthly life
It’s all yours…
First !
You know who doesn’t care at all about the election?
My kids!
Wow most everybody else in my circle of friends and acquaintances is pissed off we are having a blast!
Go and do likewise–ha ha!
Today we remember and give thanks for Martin Luther, who was born on this date in 1483! “Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”
God help us all.
I disagree with the HuffPo article G posted last night to a degree. I don’t think there are less Christians in America today. Oh, the percentage is lower due to immigrations etc – but the actual numbers… no.
Look, back in the 50s you had to call yourself a Christian to (1) be respectable and (2) to get ahead in life. So, everyone “called” themselves Christians. That is why the preaching of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller could be so popular – it didn’t have to include Christ – it was like a modern day Dr. Phil, Oprah or tony Robbins.
Today, there are no requirements to “call” yourself a Christian – in fact no one blinks an eye if you call yourself an atheist or a Buddhist. So, the “fakers” have dropped the facade and say “nope, I’m not a Christian” – and the press gets all happy.
But I am sure that numerically, there are more Christians today than mid 20th century.
MLD is correct (i was there :rollL:) – it WAS a respectability issue, as was marriage & fidelity (my heart aches for Patraeus if indeed what is public is the sum and substance of it)
those “nominal” Christians were everywhere, even in Lutheranism … and that does make the case for the assertion: “America is a Christian nation” heard from some quarters today
hmmm “rollL: (?) … 🙄 is what i meant to “say”
i confess that i seldom link on the links in comments unless someone comments on one of them … good Huffington Post article – the author got a more positive comment from his mother when he announced that he’d become a Christian than i did from mine …
Found some love for those who voted for Obama at World Nuts Daily. Not only this, but there’s an article about Louisiana residents who want to secede from the Union. Wow.
“In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, are sharing a collective thrill.”
If Louisiana seceded from the US, the county’s IQ level would increase. 😉
So would the country’s.
🙂
Here’s another gift of love to those who voted Democratic on Tuesday, This from a former Ron Paul aide and a libertarian.
“All family and friends, even close family and friends, who I know to be Democrats are hereby dead to me. I vow never to speak to them again for the rest of my life, or have any communications with them. They are in short, the enemies of liberty. They deserve nothing less than hatred and utter contempt.”
“I strongly urge all other libertarians to do the same. Are you married to someone who voted for Obama, have a girlfriend who voted ‘O’. Divorce them. Break up with them without haste. Vow not to attend family functions, Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas for example, if there will be any family members in attendance who are Democrats.”
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/11/09/boycotting_democrats.html
You know it runs both ways. My daughter is up visiting my brother’s family. Now to set the scene my brother always thought Ted Kennedy was a conservative and thinks Obama isn’t liberal enough. He and his family live in Davis CA which is a liberal stronghold.
So my daughter called and said that her cousin (my brothers son) who is 35, rode over from his house on his bike, saw my daughter, and yelled at her that she was a @#$%%^ Republican – turned around on his bike and went home.
Are you Democrats sore winners??? 🙂
This was this morning – but I must say, my nephew is a school teacher and a union leader… so enough said.
I can’t speak for anyone else…but I’m not a sore winner.
Methinks no one should take politics so seriously.
Well, I don’t – but it’s funny, 2 yrs of campaigning, $2 Billion spent, all the House and a third of the Senate up for re election along with the President – and nothing changed.
We could have skipped it all and we are right where we started.
Of course it changes things. I think your point of view is very cynical.
what changed?
If I was cynical 😉 I would say that the people voted for gridlock government – that’s why they returned the same Congress.
What changed? The following reality check happened…
http://fuzzybunnygandhijesus.tumblr.com/post/35452119933/yep
Revised, strike #20
http://fuzzybunnygandhijesus.tumblr.com/post/35452119933/reality-check-from-the-day-after
Good one, G-man!
And that ain’t the half of it.
Nate Silver, the NY Times statistics guy,, can write his own ticket. He’s the man. He gave O a 90% chance of a win. The pundits? Naw, not so much. Follow at your own peril.
Ho hum, another James MacDonald scandal. Seems he, as well as the church’s CFO, likes hitting the casinos, but at least his minions have an interesting definition of gambling that leaves out poker. My wife says it reminds her of “what the definition of is is”.
i have had a comfortable life, i am warm and well fed and i am grateful to the Military for their part in that …
General Patraeus? is he a professing Christian? Could any healthy man in his 50s in that position of responsibility and the madness of that area of the world have resisted a gorgeous, healthy woman who was embedded (no pun intended, but the jokesters will pounce) at his side for a full year – to write his biography – at best, it was wrong headed thinking, at worst it was a plot to bring him down …
tonight I salute those in harms way trying to do the right thing and also i thank God that a little boy named James has folks around him who love our Lord
Back to the election — a thorough CBS News article tells how it is that the Romney camp got the polling numbers wrong and their candidate was ‘shellshocked’ when returns starting coming in on Tuesday night. I think this is one that will be studied in college Poli. Sci. classes and future presidential campaigns for a long time.
Money quotes:
‘How did the Romney team get it so wrong? According to those involved, it was a mix of believing anecdotes about party enthusiasm and an underestimation of their opponents’ talents.’
‘If you’re basing your entire campaign on white people, it leaves you little margin of error. That’s where Romney’s troubles as a candidate hurt him.’
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57548103/why-romney-never-saw-it-coming/?tag=fdleft;fdrelated
“Could any healthy man in his 50s in that position of responsibility and the madness of that area of the world have resisted…”?
Yeah, when you love your wife and family more than your ego
Lutheran,
Thanks re #22. Maddow’s delivery is even better watching her say it.
MLD, there are a few school teachers here on the blog, including yours truly. I’m trying not to be offended by your #14, since I realize that you often paint with a really broad brush.
Kevin,
Sorry for the offense. I don’t know what it is like in AZ but in CA the “teachers” led by their unions are raping the tax payer to fund their pension plans under the guise of “save the schools / save the children” tax initiatives – which is why I included “union leader” in my nephews description.
G @26 … i sounded somewhat insulting to the male character @24 and i apologize for that … it was one of those off the cuff broad brush statements that always get called out here and that’s a good thing
i don’t know the general and i’m sure not making excuses for him or putting the blame on that writer … but they say that we all have our breaking point and we all have our price … maybe some don’t – ever
the “military industrial complex” and the education systems today are both bloated messes where a few unprincipled opportunists can take advantage of opportunities to get rich way beyond their worth to the system – i pray for the good soldiers and teachers to survive and win in the end for all our sakes
G., well, i too, “consider each and every word within our sacred texts to be dictated by the Holy Spirit ” … we just aren’t as good at interpreting and applying them as the Creator has given us the opportunity to do …
praying for all the absent ones here … especially the offended visitors … one thing the PhxP doesn’t do (although some think otherwise) is pander to anyone’s theories and conclusions …
now i’m gone … too 🙂
i said i was gone and i almost am, but leaving pondering G.’s statement: ” i think we of the male gender still own a huge percentage of the responsibility of past and present abuses of power which exist within the religions and power structures of humanity”
i totally agree with that observation … however, i think it was a lack of strength and opportunity that kept my gender from behaving likewise in many cases … we need women of grace, like you have described your daughters to be, to set the example for the coming generations in the perhaps better, but very chaotic atmosphere ahead
I really feel for Yoko Ono’s oppression – LOL
Please, folks — do we really need the “N” word on here, in any way, shape or form? I think we can make our points without resorting to something so very ugly.
What about keeping things a little more dignified?
No Things I Think today? That makes for a bad Monday.
Lutheran,
It’s impossible to quote a contextual article without the use of the word. It offends my sensibilities to the core and as a person with white lineage I chose to bring this up to shock the readers into considering how our silent support of some of the outdated practices within our own religion are continuing to suppress women and destroy families.
Guys like the good general get a pass, a “boys will be boys” wink and nod while women during the last election were denigrated as “sluts” by a powerful bloted radio talks how host, and the luminaries within my religion applauded such shenanigans, and we’re soundly drummed out of their offices and Rush rightly suffers the loss of wonderful sponsors.
Back to the strategic use of the word, read the article, especially the fact that Dick Gregory & Ron Dellums’ supported Joko & John’s sentiment and performance of the song.
It’s an ugly word because treating women that way :: is :: ugly, and tht was precisely Yoko’s point in stating it ,and no amount of sanitizing the issue will remove the huge responsibility that people who are religious, especially we men, and people who are in power , usually men, are way too often the ones who institutionalize and perpetuate the destruction of womanhood and our own families by serial marriages with little or no regret.
Gents like the good general are far more destructive than any two gay or lesbian couples having a committed marriage.
The one who is forever and horrible hurt and injured here has a name, Holly Knowlton Petraeus
http://www.examiner.com/article/holly-petraeus-betrayed-wife-of-gen-petraeus-faces-public-humiliation
One more thing, I’m tired of pretending that each and every word within our sacred text should be applauded. Indeed, they are record of history and the thinking of those we read of, but there are things that simply must be called out as primitive.There is a reason thinking people read these texts and question and ask that some things be revered while other things be reviled, and the letters within the 2nd testament have some outstandingly misogynistic statements which, within their bronze age context, are completely understandable, but to say that they should be perpetuated, to say that the christian religion should tolerate the lack of women in leadership roles, especially the role of “pastor” simply perpetuates a line of reasoning that is cultural, not eternal. Jesus never demanded that women be marginalized or denied roles of leadership in His Kingdom.
I wonder if there had been more women pastors if we would read less of men abusing their children and congregations because women add a huge counterbalance to the extreme and violent power driven nature which we men tend to struggle with.
Lute, I just put the comment into moderation.
G-Man,
Sure, I get your point.
I’m of a similar age as you. I remember Lennon’s song and message and context pretty well. Maybe that’s why I thought it was unnecessary to refer to it as you did.
Lutheran,
There are plenty others who do not remember.
BrianD,
Really, moderation? Really? How quaint. Ok, do what you must, but that is totally missing the point and if you would prefer I rephrase the comment then you have my email and I respect your editing skills, being a journalist, so send me a revised draft and we can agree on something that will make Lutheran feel better while we can still make the point that we men are the ones who perpetuate women’s oppression and treat them, the world over, like the marginalized African American culture which white males created and that is still looked upon wistfully by some who call themselves “christian” while proudly waving the Confederate flag.
Here, let’s try this revision…
Em,
No problem, i think we of the male gender still own a huge percentage of the responsibility of past and present abuses of power which exist within the religions and power structures of humanity. As the father of two brilliant and capable women I despise the oppression that exists, especially in our American culture and institutions, and particularly the religious ones which refuse to evolve because they consider each and every word within our sacred texts to be dictated by the Holy Spirit directly to the pages of their KJVs.
Yoko Ono & John Lennon sang a song at which which polite company here would recoil in horror of because it contains a word which we consider scandalous, yet the word is entirely descriptive of how women are marginalized, even to this day
G,
You get further and further out on the limb as each day passes. How did you go from General P having a consensual affair with a West Point & Harvard grad who makes a lot more money than I do and turn this into somehow he was oppressing her in particular and how that now oppresses women all over the world in general?
Are you still smoking the same stuff your were smoking the day you heard John Lennnon sing that song?
“One more thing, I’m tired of pretending that each and every word within our sacred text should be applauded.”
I’ve never known you to pretend such a thing, G. But frankly, I’ll take the Bible over your (or anyone else) reasoning 100% of the time. I don’t have to rebuke the bible, the bible rebukes me. Perhaps some understanding of certain passages is imperfect, and certainly the application of said passages can cause problems. Still, that is a problem with the reader, not the text.
And moms and grandmoms can be just as abusive as any man.
MLD,
This is about GeneralP getting a pass, giving men a pass,
no one ever said he was oppressing his mistress. Retread the transcript
So, Josh, you think Paul is right in denying women a pastoral role when it’s demonstrated that they are equals to men, are just as intelligent, far more nurturing?
So we can give the book a secondary place when dealing with eating shellfish, wearing clothing of mixed fabric, but we’ve gotta hold tight to an antiquated view that women will be saved though childbirth and that their place is to be silent?
I’m saying that you don’t understand the text and are reading it out of context. Paul himself said that women were equal to men. He spoke of women far above their cultural value in the first century.
Shellfish, etc, was all fulfilled in Christ. If you take the whole book in context, it tells you that.
G, how did he get a pass? He lost his job and the whole world knows his sin?
And if the story is true, it was actually a woman, the mistress who was oppressing another woman.
There is only one way to read the studs, in context, and the context declares that women were to be denied the role of pastor, correct?
Plus, why are women more nurturing?!?! Isn’t that an out of date, sexist stereotype?
Observable reality, Josh.
Answer the question
Context also includes HISTORICAL context, as well as textual context. For the readers of that particular letter, in their local fellowship, yes, Paul said that women should not be pastors. However, at other times he applauds the work of women as fellow laborers in the Gospel.
Love the autocorrect on the iPad
G – my reality is that I was brutally abused by a drug-addicted grandmother as a child. The only nurture I ever got was from my alcoholic father.
So, then, are you saying the evangelical view that women should not be pastors is wrong, and that we should immediately ordain women pastors?
G – many denominations DO ordain women pastors.
Josh,
I am so very sorry about your horrible experience. That is terrible.
So, based on what you say about Paul, we should immediately allow women to be full pastors, teaching pastors, leaders within the church?
Sure it is, but it was 30 years ago. The point is that women can be just as abusive as men, and men can be just as nurturing as women. Both are sexual stereotypes as outdated as men being smarter than women.
And those who don’t, therefore, need to be called out for perpetuating a wrong practice, yes?
Sorry, getting lines crossed.
Women are already allowed to be pastors, lead pastors, in many denominations, and are just as free to start their own church as any man.
@ 59 – We should certainly continue the conversation. I won’t fault men who are honestly trying to live the scriptures the best way they can, but there are obviously men who abuse the position. Those should absolutely be called out immediately. If it is just a disagreement on the interpretation of scripture, but not an abuse issue, then we should appreciate the subtle differences among our brothers and continue to work towards the image of Christ.
No, the point is that religion, the one you and I practice, has a group of men who perpetuate the idea that only men should be teaching pastors, or that women should only teach other women, and that whatever Paul might say, you would fully advocate with me that all Christian denominations be known as Christ followers, one very important visible practice being their complete acknowledgement that women should be immediately allowed to be full pastor teachers, teaching both genders?
Sorry, these posts are crossing almost in real time
Sorry G – I’m confused. My 58 was in response to your 56.
Josh,
So very sorry about what you suffered. That is horrible.
I will keep that in my heart, to know you better and what shaped you, and be sure to consider tht in how we interact. I’m glad you are here and work through so much of what we discuss
All good, friend.
I think we’re getting each other.
So, back to GeneralP, no pass, no matter how much stress, pressure, whatever.
If the man was unhappy he could have sought a divorce. I think he was in violation of the military code of justice to be having an affair, yes?
This is beyond hilarious.
This Tulsa weather broadcaster is telling people unhappy with Obama’s reelection how to move to Canada.
I’m sure Ken “Festus” Hagin, Kenny Copeland and all the other charismatic wackadoodles and nut jobs HQed in Tulsa thought the guy was serious.
Funny thing, though — Canada has universal health care and is well to our left.
The devil’s in the details. So to speak.
🙂
http://www.alan.com/2012/11/11/u-s-traffic-reporter-tells-fleeing-republicans-how-to-get-to-canada/
hey, wait a minute – my comment is in moderation? … it was an answer to what G had already said, quoting Yoko – well, i guess she does have more credibility than i, but … if there’s another word that says what that one does in commenting on the character flaw in the human race, give it to me and i’ll rewrite my # 33 thusly
“__*_ are everywhere and always have been – they are the victims of an evil strain that runs through the race of man … the “circle and sniff” crowd feel better when they can identify (and attack) some of their fellow man as “not like us” …
my draft copy of my latest effort on Lulu came today and i need to make myself do some editing before i die – a flowchart of the Revelation given to that Apostle way back there – it’s easier to just sit here and pontificate” and the ever popular :smilie:
I think the Canadians will immediately close the borders and tell these people to go South instead
Em,
It’s easier on our bud BrianD to describe in more words what we don’t like than to choose a word and a story that is concise but would offend sensibilities.
Besides, it forces us to be better writers 😉
G., weel, maybe – and i do need help in being a better “writer” – i’m okay when i’m in the groove, but most of the time i just let the fingers fly and i type way faster than i think …
kind of interesting on the “love” thing … Christian men are commanded to do so where their wives are concerned – sometimes THAT takes a whole lot of virtue as some of us women are simply more lovable than others and even us lovable ones fluctuate, no matter how carefully you men select from among us 😆
what if, and i doubt that it’s true, Mrs. Patraeus is a very “unlovable” woman – he didn’t chose well and just can’t love that wife of his? does that give him a pass? … grace is a charming word and hard to carry out
Oh and for the record, i love BrianD – i am indebted to him for many interesting reads and he is welcome to deal with anything i say here as he deems necessary – as are the other hardworking moderators – usually i can just be ignored -i apologize for complicating things lately
Em,
I believe that is a false dichotomy perpetuated by those who want to slice the watermelon too thin. We’re all simply called by Jesus to love, plain and simple. Betrayal doesn’t act like love, never does responding to a spouse with similar coldness and distance. When there is distance the one who realizes it should pursue the distant one, do romantic, funny, kind and loving things to win him or her back, or make it their new and present goal.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/secission-petitions-filed-20-states-190210006.html
That link is about the movement to secede the union
This is nothing new, if you read down in the article.
It’ll never happen
Well, it might happen for a minute or so…right up until these old white folks realize they’ll no longer be getting Social Security or Medicare payments if they secede.
🙂
The article I’ve linked by David Frum is great, IMHO. If conservatives can overcome their “givers vs. takers” mentality. work with others and follow this guy’s advice,, I think our Union will be healthy for a long time.
I never knew that despair is a mortal sin in Catholicism. Those are the more serious sins, right?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/12/opinion/frum-conservatives-despair/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
It goes both ways – I remember 8 yrs ago & 4 yrs ago Alec Baldwin and a bunch of Hollywood libs threatening to make a mass exodus to Canada if Bush and then McCain won the election.
This is just standard fare. The weak minded are those who read of this and pass it along as if it matters.
we are a very different nation than what we were pre-Civil War, that war ended States’ rights – if you can’t go with the flow (majority rule), there’s no place within our borders to move to …
never say never
Ok, GOP guys far and near, be forewarned…
start with this photo…
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/858577/thumbs/r-KAREN-HUGHES-RAPE-large570.jpg?4
“If another Republican man says anything about rape other than it is a horrific, violent crime, I want to personally cut out his tongue… The college-age daughters of many of my friends voted for Obama because they were completely turned off by Neanderthal comments like the suggestion of ‘legitimate rape.'”
– former George W. Bush adviser Karen Hughes
O_o
With this kind of thinking secession ain’t gonna happen…
“What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on Earth. The belief that our destiny is shared; that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another and to future generations.”
FDR? JFK?
BHO
stepping away to leave space for others.
peace
How did this site get taken over by left-wing nut jobs? Are you just flaunting that you can endorse the party of homosexuality and abortion and still call yourselves Christians? Strange.
I am am not an advocate of homosexuality or abortion and I will not counter with the sins I perceive in the opposing party.
I will only say that such labels have cost us enough…
You’re no fun any more.
Gee, PP Vet, a person cannot vote for a man who is part of a party, or a woman who is part of another party? Try this, most of us who were “GOP” became independents precisely because of the Neanderthals who hijacked that party and this time ’round we voted person by person, political contest by political contest, issue by issue. I will take a compassionate lesbian Atheist over a meddlesome jerk who doesn’t know when to shut up and just do the job of public service.
I am tired of those within my religion who demand that I believe gays are part of the reason hurricanes hit cities, or “self sufficiency” is why Japan got hit by a tsunami. These aren’t “acts of God”, they are natural disasters and the “acts of God” are the selfless acts of love which countless human beings, moved by God to reach out with acts of compassion demonstrate tangibly that God has not given up on us not yesterday in an election, not today in a city freezing and without power and not tomorrow when one of us is suffering and needs encouragement.
G, while you and your cohorts here are throwing dung on conservative Christians who get involved in politics –
If you join with the Philistines, you deserve to be considered a pariah, so stop complaining.
G,
“I am tired of those within my religion who demand that I believe gays are part…”
Since you seem to be of the religion of doubt, denial and deconstruction, I just wonder who you are speaking of when you say “those within my religion.”
PP Vet,
Sorry, not a Philistine,
if I must be an outsider to your world, be accurate, try “Samaritan”, my dear priest
MLD,
The religion that Jesus founded, His Kingdom, known often by we who are keen to say, “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief!”
PP Vet/Dansk,
There are millions and millions of American Christians who are also Democrats. You need to get out more. Millions of Catholics (including our current vice president), mainline Protestants and yes, horror of horrors, evangelicals and charismatics are Democrats.
MLD,
I only speak of “those” as the individuals who distinguish themselves by their blind insistence that God judges whole nations and peoples for the supposed misdeeds of a few. That is an archaic world view that ignores the complexities of life. Jesus warned repeatedly that a bad effect wasn’t directly linked to a bad cause. Shoddy built towers collapse on innocents, and when asked “who sinned” Jesus refocused the issue onto living in such a way that you’re in communion with God, moment by moment, ready for the inevitable end of Earthly life