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68 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    Brian Zahnd, who says a lot of silly things, said this on Twitter…

    “Worship is relating rightly to God. Justice is relating rightly to neighbor. Thus there are really only two sins: Idolatry and Injustice.”

    I think he may have said something deeply profound there…

  2. Em says:

    hmm… sometimes “mercy” is rightly relating to your neighbor… sometimes 🙂

  3. JTK says:

    What’s the best way to help these refugees abroad?

    Obviously, praying, but beyond that…..

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    The New Testament is very clear about sin… with a unanimous voice the apostles were commissioned to forbid idolatry and sexual immorality.

  5. Michael says:

    The migration of people fleeing poverty and violence to western countries is the greatest problem facing the world today.

    We cannot even have a reasonable conversation about the matter yet.
    Walls and militarized borders will only work if you’re prepared to kill them at some point.

    My fear is that will be seen as a reasonable option…

  6. Michael says:

    I think sexual immorality can fit into both categories…

  7. Babylon's Dread says:

    Idolatry breaks the first “great” commandment
    Immorality breaks the “second”

    Jesus summed up the call for justice that in his extrapolation of the commandments, so I would not have any issue with the tweet you applauded.

    But idolatry breaks the “ONE GOD” union
    Immorality breaks the “one flesh” union

  8. Michael says:

    Sexual immorality could be defined as a result of worshipping the creature, not the Creator…

  9. Babylon's Dread says:

    I agree Michael…

  10. Michael says:


    Thank you again for having the boldness to ask the question…

  11. Babylon's Dread says:

    I like Tebow, but we cannot have ESPN’s obsession with them filling the media with useless noise. Skip Bayless will foam at the mouth a few more times but this essentially ends it and Tebow should go to Canada if he wants to play football.

  12. Michael says:


    I agree…

  13. Michael says:

    This sort of crap makes me mad…and the attitude behind it will eventually create a backlash that will set back the “gay” community.

  14. Em says:

    #15 – your assessment is correct, but i do wonder if our brainwashed children will ever think straight – will ever sort out the hooey that they’re being raised in from rational and orderly thinking – will they recognize the norms that support a civilization? God have mercy on their souls…

  15. JTK says:

    Thanks, Michael.

    Now what can I do to help…..

  16. Em says:

    the great influx of refugees represent a problem on many levels…
    the Western Civilization, was undergirded in its development by Christian norms and standards, if not strong commitment to them… would the Western World have ever developed into what it is today without that influence? just asking – dunno –
    nevertheless, the Christian hold on the west is dissolving before our eyes – first to go was our own respect for it…
    but hidden behind the drama and pathos of refugees is another flood sneaking into the western world – prospering Chinese citizens are driving real estate prices through the roof as they attempt to get their cash out of their communist homeland – 70% of the homes bought in Vancouver BC were sold to Chinese (not immigrants, as i understood the report, but Chinese nationals)… the Chinese are all over Africa doing deals with corrupt leadership in those countries and they are courting Portugal to do a deal to take over a very strategic, large military base (developed by U.S.) in the Azores… lots of troubling military stuff being reported – our aircraft carriers which we have seen as statements of our might and power are now sitting ducks (i always thought they were, quite frankly) as our naval superiority is being credibly challenge by both China and Russia

    my point is that the demographics and power structure of the whole world is changing right in front of our eyes and the refugees are just the tip of the iceberg, as it were … show mercy to the refugees, yes, but it may be time for the Church to work on renewing our minds – to focus on Christ for our reality and stability…
    i seem to remember something about the Euphrates “drying up” allowing hordes from the East to invade? maybe that IS metaphoric, as some here like to say that the Biblical prophesies are
    forgive the long ponder… should just erase it – but i’m not gonna

  17. Em says:

    i think if i were a refugee parent, i would most appreciate the organizations attempting to look after the health and welfare of my children… will need some time to sort thru all those organizations, but it is encouraging to see the compassion being shown over there

  18. Em says:

    wondering about the prophesies that seem to hint of a holocaust “of Biblical proportions” for some of the area these refugees are fleeing – i can only wonder about that, but we are seeing quite a change in the sociologic make-up of the peoples that inhabit the geography of our planet

  19. Michael says:

    The issue of refugees and migrants is very complex.

    Mercy demands we respond, but that will in and of itself not solve the problems.

    We need to talk about what assimilation should look like and we have to recognize that until we help fix the places they are coming from, there is no solution short of murder.

    Creating a political football out of the issue is the worst thing we can do.

  20. Scott says:

    94 million Americans are currently out of work, over half of them are women. Wages and benefits are stagnant at best. Government assistance and dependency of some sort is continuing to escalate as the economy is in the tank.

    How we can assimilate millions of more people into our country is beyond me. Then again, many things are beyond me.

  21. Michael says:

    There are probably far more than that out of work.

    There are millions who have given up and are either on the streets or not far from it…doing whatever odd jobs they can find or selling whatever illicit substance will pay the rent that month.

    The fact that we have other grave problems doesn’t lessen the potential impact of the migrant one.

    This is why now, more than ever, we need non partisan, non sensationalistic ,discussions aimed at finding solutions instead of someone to blame.

  22. I say we foot our share of the bill to resettle these people … in European countries.

  23. Michael says:

    I’m far too gun shy to say much about the issue.

    I will say that the problem will not go away and that some of the recommended solutions will create even larger problems not too far down the road.

    It will take clear thinking and planning to avert larger crises…

  24. Em says:

    one thing is certain, the folks who post our comments here on the PhxP’s blog site won’t solve the problems of the world… but discussing the problems of the world from the perspectives that God-fearing and loving people hold may help all of us to clear our own thinking – duuno – it helps me center and i’m grateful to you all

  25. Michael says:


    I was going to post that, but they’d probably burn down my house at this point… 🙂

  26. Em says:

    the article linked @27 from the Guardian is poignant and challenging… but one thing that we need to keep in mind is that, while the folk flooding out of the Middle East right now may look “poor,” a goodly number of them are educated professionals and solid citizen types just trying to escape with their lives and the shirts on their backs – trying to escape the extremes of their own societies and that should give us pause…
    dark skin does not equal underprivileged in all cases, Fr. Giles

  27. Michael says:

    Let me give you an example of unintended consequences in this area.
    Despite popular rantings, it is not easy to get across the border in most places.
    Because of our various border security measures, one must enlist the services of a guide or coyote to get across.
    These are usually the most unscrupulous bastards imaginable and the going rate is about 4 grand.

    Now, about this time of year for decades, the migrant workers would arrive here to pick the pear crop.
    Then they would move north to harvest apples and cherries, then move south for other harvests and then…go home.

    Now, because of the border security they may not be able to get back here for the next season…so they stay here.

    The old way worked for the growers and the migrants…this way has everyone in a bind.

    Walls keep people out…but they also hold people in.

    We need to think more clearly about these things…

  28. Michael says:

    We also need to learn to differentiate between migrants and refugees… and now I’ll run for cover.

  29. brian says:

    You know Michael I don’t have much relatively speaking to where I live but I have given what I have to small refugee groups when I can. back when I was younger we rented a big house and we always had folks there, sometimes as many as 20 or so, it was a very big house. I loved it, I know that is unregenerate of me as Ann Coulter is a true loving expression of the faith of the corporation. I went to church that saw Ms. Coulter as a stark liberal in the extreme. Personally I do have some suggestions that I might bring up later. Thank you all.

  30. Em says:

    “The old way worked for the growers and the migrants…this way has everyone in a bind.” this way IS politics… remember when the unions got into the act, saying that bussing in crop workers from Mexico for the season was unfair to local agricultural workers? what is the answer to politics? … politicians are definitely “tics” – the system is bleeding us out

    BTW aren’t cherries picked before pears? 🙂

    migrants aren’t refugees – do we know the difference? two different issues with different solutions? point to ponder

  31. Michael says:

    Em…might have been apples… they went to Washington for something.

  32. Michael says:

    Migrants are looking for work, refugees escaping violence.

  33. Scott says:

    But what about the “two kingdoms” concept being promoted in various camps? Not to mention, the “separation of church and state” mantra we hear so often whenever people or leaders don’t want any influence of religious conviction dictated in the public square?

    We are a nation of laws which is supposed to be goverened by a constitutional republic. Instead, what we have now is a soft tyranny at best.

    I am perplexed by refugees fleeing for their lives in the middle east into Europe. The images are disturbing and my heart goes out to them. I suppose I need to be more proactive in helping to support relief agencies who are focused on helping these families.

    However, opening our borders and just allowing everyone and anyone to come in is just something I’m not prepared to accept as a citizen of the United States.

  34. Michael says:

    “However, opening our borders and just allowing everyone and anyone to come in is just something I’m not prepared to accept as a citizen of the United States.”

    I’ve yet to hear anybody advocate for that…ever.
    It is the kind of caricature that stifles real discussion and perpetuates the problem.

  35. Scott says:

    I see. People like me are the one’s perpetuating the bankrupting of our nation by the unbridled entry of illegal aliens into our country? You are either blind or naive.

    Any attempt to have a so-called dialog on these things on your blog is impossible because you are quick to characterize and pigeon hole anyone who doesn’t agree with your perspective on these matters.

    Therefore, what’s the use? Just tell all your readers what your solutions are to these things and stop inviting dialog.

  36. Michael says:

    That again is a mischaracterization now of what I said.
    Your statement about completely open borders was hyperbole that no one I know says or believes.
    That doesn’t serve discussion or aid in solutions .
    I didn’t characterize or pigeon hole anyone…you did .

  37. Michael says:

    My views would pretty much mirror those found here…

    “Our national immigration laws have created a moral, economic and political crisis in America. Initiatives to remedy this crisis have led to polarization and name calling in which opponents have misrepresented each other’s positions as open borders and amnesty versus deportations of millions. This false choice has led to an unacceptable political stalemate at the federal level at a tragic human cost. We urge our nation’s leaders to work together with the American people to pass immigration reform that embodies these key principles and that will make our nation proud. As evangelical Christian leaders, we call for a bipartisan solution on immigration that:

    Respects the God-given dignity of every person
    Protects the unity of the immediate family
    Respects the rule of law
    Guarantees secure national borders
    Ensures fairness to taxpayers
    Establishes a path toward legal status and/or citizenship for those who qualify and who wish to become permanent residents’

    The simple solution if one does not share in my concerns is to simply demand that every employer in the country use E-verify or go to jail.

    Continue to militarize the border…walls are expensive symbols that aren’t as effective as other deterrents.

    Do those things and that problem is solved.

    The ramifications will be heinous in a few years, but it will win an election.

  38. jlo says:

    Every time I have tried to have a discussion on immigration it goes something like this. And yes I mean every time.

    Me: I’m not for open boarder, but our immigration policy is not working and needs to be changes.

    Other: I can’t believe you are for open borders.

    Me: I’m not. But the policy we have is not working and it needs to be changed. We know the Mexican government is corrupt. People are fleeing Mexico to escape poverty, corruption, death, and drug cartels.

    Other: let them clean up their own government.

    Me: We have to accept responsibility for the part we have played in the destruction of their economy.

    Other: I can’t believe you are for open borders.

    Me: I’m NOT.

    Other: it sure sounds that way to me.

    Me: sigh, but I clearly said…… never mind.

  39. Michael says:


    We just saw that happen here.
    I’ve never advocated for open borders, nor has the EIT.

    I don’t usually even talk about it anymore…it does go to the same places every time.

  40. Steve Wright says:

    The HuffPosr is a pretty big megaphone with quite a readership…16,000 likes for this article. No less than 16 reasons given

    I recognize that MIchael did not advocate in this thread for open borders but to say nobody is advocating that way and it is not part of the politcal discussion would be incorrect Top of the google search list

    It is a key part of the progressive left.

    I think it boils down to two questions. Should we have some sort of laws (i.e. no open borders). And then if so, should we enforce those laws. (What HuffPo calls “militarizing”)

  41. Michael says:

    It’s much more complex than two questions…the question of whether we hold any responsibility for conditions that create migration is in and of itself complex.

    However, I’ve learned my lesson again and won’t pursue the matter here.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    It’s very complex…but whether we talk strict laws, lax laws, or whatever is in between (which would be a complex discussion), the first issue is should we have any laws for entering and staying in this country.. Whatever level our policies are responsible for migration, America owes it to the world to be clear what our laws are and that they will be enforced….or to eliminate those laws.

    The selective application of grace to some, law to others is not helpful and certainly not justice.

  43. Em says:

    thing is… right now anyone and everyone with the stamina and guts to do so, can get into the U.S with or without papers

    most of these poor souls are not gang operatives (some are) and they really do think that we are a land of plenty for all – they come into this country with a naive sense that we have an unlimited largess that is there for anyone willing to work, and work the system.- and most come with a disdain for law and a crusader’s mindset to avoid getting caught by law enforcement officers – where they come from those men were just bad guys

    yes, we can share, but for the common man today, not sure of his own paycheck, that sharing looks a little bit like losing, not “sharing”

    maybe it will all work out and we will survive with a chicken in every pot and roofs over all our heads and bright educated children…
    we are naive, ourselves, if we think that they have any intention of raising their children to be field workers…

    maybe the American Dream can survive this drive for “freedom” … i hope so … it will take wiser and stronger leadership than what we have now to pull it off … and, if we’re not careful, we run the risk of electing some bad guys to do it

    BTW … do you know that pregnant Chinese women are coming in on tourist visas in large numbers in order to deliver their children on U.S, soil now? it truly is a whole new ballgame

    as i read here. everyone has a point, an aspect of the problem that needs a solution… beyond Christian grace, we don’t seem to have any good fixes to hang our hats on, tho

    just sayin … again

  44. Steve Wright says: to Tim Tebow.

    I know the guy is not an NFL caliber Super Bowl QB. But the 3rd QB holds a clipboard unless disaster hits and the top 2 go down in the same game – in which case the team will sign an unsigned veteran or look to Canada before the next game.

    But with Tebow, a team gets a special situation player in the red zone that the opponent would have to spend at least a little valuable time preparing for in practice the week prior. Would you rather have Tebow 1st and goal from the 9 or Bradford or Sanchez? The arm strength doesn’t mean anything down there.

    Add to that a ton of merchandise the team will sell…a huge new fanbase following..and certainly a good guy in the locker room and an excellent “face” for the team in community charity events (which he loves doing anyway)

    Michael Vick age 35, made a team. That dude has made a team every year since his suspension….check out his career stats and Tebow’s..(and Vick is not the ‘old’ Vick when it comes to talent but Tebow is still improving)

    I don’t know about the conspiracy card against a Christian (Bradford is a very strong Christian) but I think there is a jealousy card among these coaches and executives…and certainly the media. How many times have you heard someone say publically how tired they are of Tebow. Imagine these guys behind close doors.

    Jacksonville especially, his home turf..ought to snag him.

  45. Em says:

    since this is Saturday and open blogging:

    i read that this is a century old tradition at West Point…
    “The pillow fight held on August 20 resulted in 24 cadets suffering concussions and others suffering injuries including a broken nose, a dislocated shoulder and a broken cheekbone. The New York Times first reported the violence at this year’s fight. Sources told the Times that some cadets had placed helmets inside the pillowcases used in the fight.”‘
    soldiers? pillow fights? do they follow this with a shopping trip to the maul… err mall?

  46. passin throgh says:

    I am perplexed by refugees fleeing for their lives in the middle east into Europe. The images are disturbing and my heart goes out to them. I suppose I need to be more proactive in helping to support relief agencies who are focused on helping these families.


    Ya think, Scott?

    Congratuations. You’re a wishy-washy, right-wing nincompoop.

    Fortunately, there are millions of other Xns who will help out.

  47. Surfer51 says:

    Actually we do have “open” borders here in the USA.

    At lunch one day I sat near 4 tough looking young men in uniform.

    They were wearing weapons and had a unique badge and patches that I had never seen before.

    My curiosity got to me, so I went over to them and engaged them in conversation.

    Three of them had that “hard nosed” attitude that the military creates in young men but one of them had not completely succumbed to it.

    I found out that they were some of our border pilots.

    The main point of our conversation was that the border measures do not work.

    The friendly pilot said to me, “It would work if they would let us do our job.”

    He gave me a knowing look and they all got up and left together.

    I guess that is “inside” information of a sort indicating that on some level they were being hampered in the performance of their sworn duties.

    If you live in Southern California you quickly realize that there really isn’t a controlled border with Mexico.

    80% of my neighbors are Latino here on the west side of my city.

    I often feel like I am the one here illegally, odd man out, in my own neighborhood.

    I might mention that I grew up here when things were not like this.

    I often converse with some of my neighbors as they pass,while I am watering in the front of my home.

    My neighbors came here to escape a life of poverty in their villages and to get away from the narco violence.

    They are surviving and have integrated into American society while retaining a lot of their own culture.

    They take care of each other in ways that are amazing.

    I was told that they will rent out a couch or a space on the floor if someone is in need. $15.00 a month for a sleeping bag size spot on a floor.

    One house across the street from me has a constant revolving stream of people from across the border. A lot of kids and cars.

    Tejano music and what always sounds like German polka can be heard coming from that house.

    I live in a foreign country in my own neighborhood, very unlike what it was when I grew up.

    This is just a microcosm of what it is going to be like all over the world as the New World Order mixes and blends society’s together in preparation of the planned One World Government we read about in the book of Revelation I think.

  48. Surfer51 says:

    Americans will pay up to 80% of the rent for families that qualify.

    As a contractor I have worked for one man who became a multimillionaire from the section 8 program.

    He purchased houses in Norwalk and other such areas, fixed them up to Section 8 code and qualified for the advantageous vouchers.

    Due to the large volume of properties he now owns, with guaranteed solid government payments for the rents he has prospered greatly.

    There are others who have become millionaires just as he has.

    The section 8 program is not really working as planned.

  49. Kevin H says:

    Okay, since Tebow was brought up a couple times yesterday, you just knew I had to chime in.

    I think the bottom line is Tebow got cut because the coach didn’t see him as one of the best 53 players on the team and not good enough to be the third quarterback. Chip Kelly has a very innovative mind and probably believes himself to be a genius. By originally signing Tebow he saw the possibilities of using him in unique ways to possibly gain an advantage on the competition. After seeing him up close for a couple months, the coach decided otherwise. Even with the improvements Tebow has made in his throwing motion and accuracy, Kelly still didn’t think it was worth keeping him around.

    I don’t think it had anything to do with his faith, at least with Kelly. While I have no idea of Kelly’s religious beliefs, I do know he puts a high priority on character. He really values guys who will get in line with the coach, buy into team concepts, aren’t malcontents, and stay out of trouble. Tebow fits this to a T. And Kelly got rid of other star players because they didn’t fit this profile. Additionally, all of the quarterbacks the Eagles had in camp this year were Christians. Kelly chose to keep two, trade one (for next to nothing), and cut the last one.

  50. Jim says:

    FWIW, libertarians believe in open borders. We also reject the welfare state.

    I guess if we achieved our wishes, we’d discover who really cares about the poor and the strangers. It is so easy to ask the govt to steal from some to give to others while keeping one’s hands clean.

  51. Steve Wright says:

    Point taken, Jim. Like I’ve said, the only way one works is without the other.. Same with drug legalization

  52. Michael says:

    I totally spaced the libertarians.
    My mistake.
    I rarely hear them in the debates on the matter.

  53. jim says:

    No one cares what the libertarians have to say, so you have to enter their echo chamber to hear their voice. There are currently articles on the front pages of FEE, Cato, and Reason. Reformed Libertarian frequently addresses the issue, but isn’t as current events focused as the others.

  54. Steve Wright says:

    Kevin H.

    My thoughts were less directed at the Eagles (though still not sure why they made that decision if they are going to go out and grab a 3rd QB on the market…why not keep Barkley)

    I was thinking in terms of the entire would think some team would grab him for the reasons I cited.

  55. Surfer51 says:

    They put their money where their mouth is…

    The on-going refugee crisis in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East has grabbed hearts and headlines around the world.

    As European governments argue over who should take in the thousands of desperate people, European citizens have criticized the speed and scale of the help offered, whilst simultaneously donating money, food, and equipment to help those in desperate need.

    Now Google has stepped in, offering €1 million ($1.1 million) to the organizations providing help to refugees.

    In addition to this, (the branch of the company ‘using innovation to tackle some of the world’s biggest challenges’) is setting up a page to make it easier for people to make donations, and says that it will match any money donated by Google users.

  56. Surfer51 says:

    On Sunday, Pope Francis called upon Catholic parishes and religious communities to take in the refugees, and Germany has called for a quota system to distribute the refugee population evenly throughout Europe.

  57. Michael says:

    The reason you don’t carry Tebow as the third quarterback is because you don’t activate the third QB on Sunday.
    Only 46 of the 53 man roster is active on Sundays and it is rare for one of those to be the third string QB.
    Depth concerns make it foolish to keep a guy for gimmick value.

    Tebow was given great advice by Kelly…go to Canada, get the reps, and learn your craft.

  58. Steve Wright says:

    Thank you Michael. I was unaware of the rule change made a few years ago as to the 3rd QB.

    It makes a lot more sense to me now…

  59. Jonnyb says:

    I worked on a very large castle in Austria that CCCM purchased in 1989.

    I was told that we were fixing it up for Hungaraian refugees that they were expecting.

    A group of young Hungaraian men were there helping us at the time.

    I marvel at Chuck Smith’s fore sightedness…

    The castle has a giant kitchen and lots of rooms and can provide shelter for many from the freezing winter.

    The village is a sleepy little place on a lake.

  60. Lurkie Loo says:

    Do you know what they’re using it for now?

  61. Nonnie says:

    Last year I attended a missions conference at the castle in Austria. It was wonderful to meet with so many missionaries that are serving the Lord all over Europe. For me, it was trust a needed time of refreshing and encouragement.

    It is very busy all year (except for dead of winter) with hosting conferences, etc.

    As far as I know it is not (currently) being used for refugees, but I’m sure the people there are seeking the Lord in these dire circumstances, just as most of us are these days.

  62. Steve Wright says:

    There may be some confusion between two different places both sometimes called “the castle” on occasion. There is a place in Hungary too – a Bible College and it is definitely working with the refugee crisis.

    Austria is (as Nonnie mentions) a conference center and is very busy especially through the summer – hosting groups from all over that part of the world. One of the young ladies at our church has gone to Austria each year for the past several, six months at a time, to serve there….I do not believe at present they have any direct outreach as far as their location to the refugees

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