“After calming Jeremiah down, Hagee reportedly consulted a series of lunar charts taped across his bedroom walls and surmised that the Brexit decision had actually been accurately predicted by Halley’s Comet in 1986, before proceeding to scribble some corrections on his favorite eschatological timeline in red marker.”
It’s reported that Donald Trump has recently accepted Jesus as His Savior. That he is now a babe in Christ. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
“It’s reported that Donald Trump has recently accepted Jesus as His Savior.”
There is an important backstory to this. It has also been reported that Trump negotiated a strong deal directly with the Holy Spirit. In exchange for Trump’s acceptance of Jesus, Jesus reportedly agreed to support the temporary ban on Muslims into America and the building of a wall along the southern border. Preachers with the gift of prophesy will begin revealing the divine bargain soon.
– Satire Saturday.
There is obviously a populist revolt centered around issues of immigration and refugees who have been made the scapegoats for all that afflicts us.
This is also a revolt against cultural change…change in sexual mores and norms and the changes that comes with globalism that affect national identity.
It has also been fueled by a naive and dangerous attitude toward radical Islam by those in power.
The initial result was this election…the other results are yet to be seen.
I’m more concerned about those calling for secession and even civil war here…
is BD asking that of above posters or any of us browsing thru this a.m?
there is one school of thought that is speculating this is a planned break-up to allow a new economic union to form over there – a different alignment… but it is going to be an interesting summer… lot’s of thot’s but to quote somebody or other, “i spare you” 🙂
i was told that today the leadership of the Brexit movement have publicly denied they promised that the pounds that had gone to membership dues would be reassigned to health care over there (did/do they have control over those monies? ) … and that is a data point – like so many others that politician use to play us from both sides…
iberals and conservatives play us (the masses) like a physician’s hammer on your knee… we all need to not get more thoughtful… we aren’t dumb; the wisdom is out there, if we’re not too lazy too look for it… IMHO
My question was general. I think the EU will fragment if Britain succeeds. By the way I doubt they will succeed. The left seldom relents and when violent always blames the right. We will see.
Michael is correct; secession fever will explode in America over the next decade. Trump is possibly the end of the Republican party as we know it. It will split into its own left and right segments. The Democrat party may split as well between socialists and traditional democrats.
We have seen radical days before. The coming 20s may rival the 1960s as culture shaping and changing eras.
The British resistence to globalism is going to surely foment a similar spirit in America. A brand new genie is out of the bottle. We will see if the Brits can stuff it back.
I’ve seen you speak to the reality of a secessionist move.
Why and where do you think it possible?
I’ve seen a number of Christians comment that the conservatives aren’t buying all those guns for hunting…more than hinting at the possibility of civil war.
i think we all see shifts to a new world dynamic of some kind or other … BTW… in a conversation last night with a University professor of some standing i became aware that the intellectual left has in the back of their minds (not a movement, i don’t believe) the advantage of breaking up the North American continent into a new set of nations… so it isn’t just the radical right that is suspect … IMHO
IMV – a civil war would just create carnage and an excuse for the government to eradicate a whole lot of troublesome people; after the dust and gunpowder settled, we might be surprised to find out who all were gone – an actual break-up of the country would have to be achieved through economic leverages – IMV
At present it is not visually possible. An idea is not often possible when first spoken. It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.
When the idea of secession is spoken widely enough it will be heard. Have you ever lived in a southern state? The mindset there is so foreign to other parts of the country as to be unintelligible.
As for guns, I do not own guns as I have said many times. I recently spoke to a room full of gun owners. I asked them why they had all these assault weapons. They prevaricated. So I just flatly stated they have them because they do not trust the government. One hundred percent they agreed. They see the second amendment as a hedge against our own government.
It is easy to see how any resistance can be subdued but the will to subdue resistance is another matter. The people who will foment secession are much more willing to be radical than those who would subdue them.
Possible? It is definitely possible. Human history proves it. The moving borders of Europe illustrate it. We just have not seen it succeed in America. Our nation is young. Something will definitely happen to challenge a government that is increasingly progressive, coercive and immovable. Something will happen.
interrupting the thread apology here…
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” (Genesis 3:15)
i just realized that those words were directed to solely to Eve… where did that leave Adam?
(i haven’t looked up what the word was that is translated “enmity” – so i apologize for such a lazy question)
Let’s watch and see if Britain succeeds. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs them. They certainly contribute more. The intimidation that is coming from those who do not want to leave will be furious. Governmental covenants are not broken without suffering. I am not sure the short term suffering is endurable by this slender majority.
We will see. I think the opposition to leaving EU has not even begun to fight yet.
okay, i read on a bit, God told Adam that he was going to die, but it was going to be a “long, slow roll into a 6 foot hole” to quote an old cowboy song… sorry for the interruption
Eve and Adam were covenantally one and not perceived with the individuality we know. Eve is cited here because the fruit of her womb will be the one to end the tyranny of the serpent.
Those words are not SOLEY to Eve. The battle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent was not gender exclusive
My ancestors are Southern on one side and Native American on the other, so I have some understanding and inherited having a close connection to the land itself.
My question to all those who are so angry with the government…who elected these people?
Other people did…and those people will become as much the enemy as the government itself….
In the Civil War godly men encouraged the slaughter of other godly men.
As I’ve said before, the premier theologian of the time was Stonewall Jackson’s chaplain.
Can we do better than they in promoting reconciliation and peace?
“It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.”
Michael,
Your number #26 is knocking at the door of the issue. If you follow the money, you will find out who is in charge. It is the corruption of the vote by big donations and lack of transparency that causes ordinary people to feel a loss of representation.
But it works both ways. people who can’t understand why we can’t have universal background checks, for example, feel like politicians are beholden to a powerful, yet minority, special interest. So, I tend to blame and follow the money.
If you’re not a player, then you don’t get very much representation.
I think the Brits will experience heavy buyer’s remorse. It’s already being reported that 2+ million of them are demanding a second referendum.
Scotland and NI will vote to leave GB so they can rejoin the EU (a majority in both countries voted to remain).
To have the GB “Exit” leader say barely before the votes are counted that the $ promised to the National Health Service was a “mistake” and won’t happen. Not to mention his promise on immigration
“It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.”
Can anyone here tell me who these folks are who are interested in self government? How many of these people show up at a city council meeting to help “self govern”? How many people show up at an election of just state initiatives or bond issues?
I say no one is interested in self governing.
Europe had a fine history politically and financially without the EU and can survive just fine without it. What I want to see is each country take over their fair share of their own defense and let the US have a breather.
If Scotland leaves and Northern Ireland leaves, and I do not think they will but if they do England is more solidly LEAVE.
If 2 million signatures on a petition could reverse an election they have worse problems to declare your election invalid because of buyer’s remorse is a whole new kind of nutty. Americans have that remorse after every election.
and Michael,
I will assert again that peace is not our mission the Gospel is our mission. Jesus divided the world he lived in. I am not advocating war but England peacefully voted to secede the EU. They should be allowed to do so. If I were in England I would be advocating for as much.
Jesus divided the world into those for and against him…not politically within earthly governments.
I’ll just say this and be done with it.
Too many Christians are putting the kingdom of God below the kingdoms of men in priority and believe that their political division and rage is sanctioned by God Himself.
This is madness…utter insanity and idolatry and they will be the first to kill a brother in Jesus’s name under a political banner.
I agree with Michael. The Kingdom of God transcends governments and political groups. If you conflate the 2, you’re headed for all kinds of horror.
Besides — isn’t Jesus the Prince of Peace? I don’t see where he’s called the Prince of Conflict or the Prince of Rage. True, a couple things he said lean that way — but the NT thrust is easily toward the One who came to bring peace — individually and groupwise.
I believe that it’s still true that peacemakers are blessed.
Did John the Baptist conflate the two when he lost his head?
Did Jesus conflate the two when confronted with political questioning by Pilate?
Did Paul conflate the two when in Rome?
These deaths were all fomented because political powers would not accommodate claims that voided their hegemony.
There was no private faith secular/sacred dichotomies for the early believers.
Jesus sent them to die for claims that would be deemed political insurrection.
We have to think better than this.
Clarify your critique because it fell flat.
The Prince of Peace threw us into all kinds of suffering.
When you critique me realize that I have advocated no bloody response.
Everyone Jesus sent to make peace lost their head in intolerance of the body politic.
So what are you saying to me?
Jesus sent us to die not to make war but our very presence makes war with the powers
“Europe had a fine history politically and financially without the EU and can survive just fine without it. What I want to see is each country take over their fair share of their own defense and let the US have a breather.”
the first sentence in that declaration makes no sense to me … what history books did i miss?
however, the second sentence is one that makes all the sense in the world to me … amen
BD,
I agree with your #39, but so far I haven’t seen a Christian group do that, which I think is what Michael is also saying. Where are Christians in America getting persecuted for declaring the Jubilee?
Also, Scotland is very likely to re-voting on the question of whether or not to leave the UK. I think this time they will leave and align with the EU over England.
They’ve already got their own parliament and other infrastructure in place to do so. The previous vote to leave was not successful, but the time might be right now.
Scotland has a long standing hatred of the English “invaders”.
I’m not as certain that NI will make a move anytime soon.
This is exactly the kind of response I expect more of, if there be a response at all.
The conflict in the first century was not between different branches of earth born political interests, but between the kingdom of God versus the kingdoms of men.
Unless you’re prepared to offer an apologetic that says one political entity has the imprimatur of God, then the dichotomy is false.
My guess is that once again those who believe their politics do indeed bear that imprimatur will gladly dispose of those of us who disagree, though we are of the same true kingdom.
Just saw a news report on CNN. There has been a 1000 year flooding event in West Virginia with 32 lives lost. Untold loss and damage to homes and infrastructure as well to an area not doing well financially.
Three major fires in California, Arizona, and New Mexico have taken lives and the loss and damage to homes is unknown. Tens of thousands of acres have been burnt. Texas has been through hellish flooding as well recently.
I take a look at our local news and daily senseless violence is taking innocent lives. Yesterday in a city close by two officers were shot at a traffic checkpoint. They are going to survive. Drug use is rampant and we see the effects of that in our neighborhood through local crimes being committed. Our church was broken into by someone looking for money.
Go across the nation and we find that everywhere these things are taking place in virtually every city.
Families everywhere have loved ones fighting serious illness and others who have recently been lost to them.
Our children are rebelling and fleeing the church.
Then we just suffered through Orlando.
I am sure there’s much more I’m not aware of.
As a father and grandfather I shudder at the world waiting for them. I wish I could whisk them up and take them somewhere safe. I realize that isn’t possible.
There are unspeakable horrors taking place all around us without considering what’s taking place outside of our borders.
It seems it’s out of our control now and any hope of national revival just isn’t going to happen as events play out.
My heart is sad for all of this and the only answer I see is Jesus. Will we as individuals and churches rise above the fray to make a difference where we can?
Yet these are the times God has placed each of us and His promises are still true. He is still in control. Yet I still grieve.
the Christian offers peace to world, not thru war or passivity, but by standing –
i believer this in context? 2 Cor. 10:3-6 … i must admit that i pondering verse , however
#44-when i was a child we were drawn into a world conflict that we somehow were convinced that we could/must save the world from the evils on the march in Europe and the Far East – we were the white knights who’d rescue the world and that carried on into the late 40s – many blamed Truman for stopping MacArthur (General Douglas, not Pastor John) from chasing the North Koreans and the Chinese all the way back to Beijing, or wherever… when the French failed in Vietnam, well, call in the U.S. to save the day etc.
i think so many of the problems, particularly in our neighborhoods, are the result of believing it was our duty to save the world – spending over half a century focusing our resources (God-given, IMO) on saving the world and as we know even God, Himself hasn’t been able to do that… well… He IS able, but man won’t buy into it
i have to consider that the turmoil we see all around us is ramping up… what that means and what to tell my children and grandchildren to do to be ready for the chaos that is staging … but i pray for God to intervene, nevertheless and He may … or it just might be the approach of that “Great and terrible Day…” the one that some say we’ll go through and some say we’ll go up … it’s even possible that some will go up and some of us will go through (not, JWit’ style, tho)
The so called “kingdom of men” has been set up by God himself and to the benefit of men. May I ask why when some news worthy item comes up we pit the two kingdoms against each other?
Michael – your pessimism sounds just like a different form of dispensationalism. There is nothing we can do to better the kingdom of men that is going to be pleasing to God. Would a different vote have put a smile on God’s face. Would different political candidates make God slap an angel on the back and say “well now my kids are acting like the kingdom people I expected.”
If people were biblical instead of hysterical they would read Matt 24 clearly when Jesus says “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.”
Two points (1) all these things were predicted to happen in the general sense of worldwide turmoil – but it is a sign, not that the end is here but that we can be assured that there is an end. (2) Jesus did not tell us (The Church) to do anything about it – in fact I would think that his message is “don’t even wring your hands over it.” (3) Move on and do the work of the Church – Preach the word – forgive the sins of the people and feed them the body and the blood.
It is so funny, 30 years ago the growth of the EU was directly orchestrated by the anti Christ and today it is something that is out of God’s will if it breaks up.
You miss my point.
I just drove to the well stocked store on a well paved road without checkpoints, bought an imported Coca Cola and said hello to one of our local police officers.
I drove back home and noted that the electricity was still on, the garbage collected, and settled in to say whatever the hell I wanted to online.
I’m not wrapped in angst over the government.
My issue is that some folks think that their political views within a given system are straight from Sinai,usually on issues the Bible doesn’t address.
We are very divided and as BD spoke…there is secession talk and worse in the air.
#49-people ponder things and teachers point out the fallacies in our thinking – when it comes to human behaviors it is easier to do after the fact, however 🙂
yet, is there any thing in our lives that isn’t improved by searching the Scriptures?
and, yet, are there times for God sanctioned skepticism? i hope so
“President Obama has mass deported vast numbers of people — the most ever, and it’s never reported. I think people are going to find that I have not only the best policies, but I will have the biggest heart of anybody,” Trump said in an interview with Bloomberg Politics Saturday.
Pressed on whether he would issue mass deportations as he has called for in the past, Trump said: “No, I would not call it mass deportations.”
There is your American Brexit… backing off his most popular position.
I must go slam my hand in the car door to keep from further comment…
“My issue is that some folks think that their political views within a given system are straight from Sinai,usually on issues the Bible doesn’t address.”
So? I am sure that has always been so – and yet I doubt we will see a single shot fires in revolutionafter the election. Because some folks have strong feelings, does not mean that they are worthy to be spread by a secondary source.
As I said the other day – on the other side, none of the Hollywood elite will follow with their promise to leave the US if Trump is elected.
There is your American Brexit… backing off his most popular position.
All candidates run to the center after spending the primary season on the crazy fringe edges.
Hillary cannot run center yet until the convention for fear of those “feeling the Bern” will protest the convention.
Trump on the other hand can go center and in fact relieve the party loyalist
I decided today to watch the movie Spotlight. In light of my #44 today may not have been the best day to view it.
I remember it coming out last year and being saddened as so many used the movie to attack the Catholic church specifically and the church universal as well. That kept me from viewing it.
I read reviews and saw how other publications who did solid work in reporting the abuses Spotlight covered didn’t quite get their due.
But overall the facts as far as I could tell seem pretty accurate and what is saddening is these things go on in the Protestant churches as well at about the same rate.
A scene at the end of the movie shows a reporter walking by a room as one of his sources goes in to try and help two young victims. It put a face on the victims and that brought the sadness home in a powerful way.
I think of what happened in Orlando a number of weeks ago when so many were slaughtered in a nightclub that caters to the gay population. It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.
It seems open blogging at times turns into a single topic thread and I imagine my thoughts get lost in the conversation which I don’t mind at all. But at least I have a place to come to when I need to share things important to me at the time.
BD, lots of people claiming the faith, however misguided, were taking the moral high ground when homosexuals were killed in that sickening attack. They showed no heart for the victims and in fact many of them should have been humbled and ashamed at the moral depravity so prevalent in the church. Divorce, adultery, fornication, and yes pedophilia.
“It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.”
I personally don’t like to be lumped in with the evil some may be doing. If anyone is going to a church that is doing the above, you must make them stop … but don’t tell me THE CHURCH. Me and mine are not a part of the we.
99.9% of THE CHURCH does not put up with the crap that some do. I know the elders in my church (and I imagine most churches – like Steve W’s, Babs and Josh’s ) would take the bastard out back and beat him to near death.
I appreciate it Erunner but there will never be a day when we cannot bemoan our own sins either self-righteousness or unrighteousness. I am glad that I personally did not hear or read anyone speaking poorly of the victims of that madman.
I did not hear anyone remotely claiming moral superiority over them. We must remember that it was not much earlier that a mass murderer went into a prayer meeting and killed innocent people there.
I do appreciate your sensitivity but I cannot bear guilt over every evil thing it is not bearable.
MLD, I understand that the vast majority in the church do not cover pedophilia up. I would say you woefully underestimate the number of people who use the name christian were not horrified by what took place in Orlando.
The facts are that parts of the church do cover up pedophilia. And I only spoke towards those that do. When I speak of the church I quite often include myself as one of the guilty parties but shame has nothing to do with it.
Pedophiles are not beyond the grace of God. What they do is terrible while ruining lives and driving others to suicide.
Dread, the outpouring of love and support was overwhelming when terrorists ravaged Paris. The support on FB for example was unbelievable. At the same time I brought up I think 62 Muslims that were slaughtered by Islamic terrorists that no one ever mentioned.
After Orlando what I saw from many conservative Christians had more to do with gun control than the loss of lives. I didn’t see much about how much God loved those homosexual victims that Jesus died for.
I don’t carry a personal guilt over what took place. Wasn’t it Samuel and possibly Joshua who when they approached God in prayer for the people used the word “we” when speaking of the sins of the people. That is why I choose to identify with the guilty. Also because I know it’s only by the grace of God I have never done the same or worse than those I spoke of earlier.
I am open to correction if I have misrepresented scripture.
MLD, It seems this is what is drawing attention. Especially the second sentence.
“I think of what happened in Orlando a number of weeks ago when so many were slaughtered in a nightclub that caters to the gay population.”
“It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.”
I guess I could have written….. it made me realize how some in the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks. I think that would have been acceptable.
For me personally I’m fine with how I originally wrote it. I wasn’t intending to indict the church but instead choosing to identify with the guilty as I tried to share above.
You and Dread have given me much to think on and I appreciate it.
Erunner is – IMV – on to something, something that is hard to express or define and i probably won’t do it justice with this post, either…
exposure to sexuality in today’s world is quite a distorted one – i’d be willing to bet that most, not all, but most sex deviants are victims of what we’ve allowed our children to be exposed to and the subsequent pressures to fit in from an early age
susceptibility may be a factor, i don’t know – but what they’re now celebrating is in their minds, truly normal…
even though it would be an offense to them today, my heart breaks for what they’ve lost and what i hate is what society (us) has created, not its victims
i am not addressing the problem of genetics, but psychological deviancies
we, if not the Church, then the so-called “moral majority” lost the high ground long years ago – in the 50s and 60s…
in my opinion, i’m not speaking for God 🙂 – we rationalized our cowardice, moving from phony, if embarrassed, silence on to an awkward attempt to be cool, to make the Gospel relevant to the times – a distortion of Paul’s “all things to all men” perhaps?
we touched on how difficult it is to raise our children in these times and when to begin “the talk” … maybe, the Song of Solomon? dunno – God made us, He must have given us some instruction… it’s in there somewhere…
Em, watch out and take note – I am agreeing with you.
“we rationalized our cowardice, moving from phony, if embarrassed, silence on to an awkward attempt to be cool, to make the Gospel relevant to the times – a distortion of Paul’s “all things to all men” perhaps? ”
The theme of all things to all men is so distorted that most cannot even go back to the original meaning. So many are just so afraid to tell someone – especially other Christians – ‘you are wrong.’ It is even out of vogue here on the PP that you cannot tell a ‘brother’ he is wrong.
“You are wrong…” is one of my favorite Jesus sayings.
those two posts by MLD and BD make me smile this morning
it hit me that what is wrong with the U.S. – drum roll – is that we’ve lost an understanding of “refinement” – today it is looked upon as company manners – a facade
folks who are mourning the loss of their Christian nation really are mourning the loss of an understanding and value of refinement – IMHO
i was thinking about my Holiness Movement grandparents – apart from their strict understanding of what it meant to walk as a child of God, they were refined – i’m not talking company manners or feigned purity – what you saw was two kind people with a good sense of humor … their anger was real, but tempered, their charity the same, honest to their cores, that is what they were behind closed doors also – they understood and practiced discretion…
not going to write a book here this morning, but that type of person wasn’t so rare in the first half of the 20th century – in or out of the church – at least in some parts of this country, in the part that i grew up in anyway
just an aha moment with a lot of rabbit trails that i’m thinking on today
It’s all yours today…
This just in:
“After calming Jeremiah down, Hagee reportedly consulted a series of lunar charts taped across his bedroom walls and surmised that the Brexit decision had actually been accurately predicted by Halley’s Comet in 1986, before proceeding to scribble some corrections on his favorite eschatological timeline in red marker.”
http://babylonbee.com/news/dispensationalists-frantically-adjust-charts-include-brexit-vote/
That was funny…but funnier is that a prominent Calvary Chapel pastor was showing how this fit into prophecy as soon as the winner was declared…
It’s reported that Donald Trump has recently accepted Jesus as His Savior. That he is now a babe in Christ. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
It’s what had to be declared to fully grab the evangelical vote.
It will work because many are looking for an excuse to vote for him.
It is not working here at the international headquarters of the PhxP…
“It’s reported that Donald Trump has recently accepted Jesus as His Savior.”
There is an important backstory to this. It has also been reported that Trump negotiated a strong deal directly with the Holy Spirit. In exchange for Trump’s acceptance of Jesus, Jesus reportedly agreed to support the temporary ban on Muslims into America and the building of a wall along the southern border. Preachers with the gift of prophesy will begin revealing the divine bargain soon.
– Satire Saturday.
Short and sweet, and I don’t think there is any shame in saying that I’m pretty sure the few comments are better than the post.
https://dswoager.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/i-am/
Jean, you’re on a roll this morning, thanks for the chuckles.
Michael – just curious – does the PhxP International headquarters have any other Canadian contacts besides me? 😉
Owen,
Absolutely!
Our friend Bill Kinnon and the beloved Dr. J. I. Packer for two.
What are your thoughts on British seceding the EU?
I think if they succeed it will be a fever that spreads far.
There is obviously a populist revolt centered around issues of immigration and refugees who have been made the scapegoats for all that afflicts us.
This is also a revolt against cultural change…change in sexual mores and norms and the changes that comes with globalism that affect national identity.
It has also been fueled by a naive and dangerous attitude toward radical Islam by those in power.
The initial result was this election…the other results are yet to be seen.
I’m more concerned about those calling for secession and even civil war here…
I noted this morning that those who lead the Brexit move have already reneged on some of the promises that helped it get passed.
The same will happen here if the revolt has legs…
is BD asking that of above posters or any of us browsing thru this a.m?
there is one school of thought that is speculating this is a planned break-up to allow a new economic union to form over there – a different alignment… but it is going to be an interesting summer… lot’s of thot’s but to quote somebody or other, “i spare you” 🙂
i was told that today the leadership of the Brexit movement have publicly denied they promised that the pounds that had gone to membership dues would be reassigned to health care over there (did/do they have control over those monies? ) … and that is a data point – like so many others that politician use to play us from both sides…
iberals and conservatives play us (the masses) like a physician’s hammer on your knee… we all need to not get more thoughtful… we aren’t dumb; the wisdom is out there, if we’re not too lazy too look for it… IMHO
I would hope we could discuss such things here.
My view is that we are now talking at or past each other and have made this a scorched earth, end sum game.
We will destroy things and people precious if we continue to do so…
My question was general. I think the EU will fragment if Britain succeeds. By the way I doubt they will succeed. The left seldom relents and when violent always blames the right. We will see.
Michael is correct; secession fever will explode in America over the next decade. Trump is possibly the end of the Republican party as we know it. It will split into its own left and right segments. The Democrat party may split as well between socialists and traditional democrats.
We have seen radical days before. The coming 20s may rival the 1960s as culture shaping and changing eras.
The British resistence to globalism is going to surely foment a similar spirit in America. A brand new genie is out of the bottle. We will see if the Brits can stuff it back.
“need to not get …” don’t know where the ‘not’ came from… i did not type that! must be a hacker in here LOL
BD,
I’ve seen you speak to the reality of a secessionist move.
Why and where do you think it possible?
I’ve seen a number of Christians comment that the conservatives aren’t buying all those guns for hunting…more than hinting at the possibility of civil war.
i think we all see shifts to a new world dynamic of some kind or other … BTW… in a conversation last night with a University professor of some standing i became aware that the intellectual left has in the back of their minds (not a movement, i don’t believe) the advantage of breaking up the North American continent into a new set of nations… so it isn’t just the radical right that is suspect … IMHO
IMV – a civil war would just create carnage and an excuse for the government to eradicate a whole lot of troublesome people; after the dust and gunpowder settled, we might be surprised to find out who all were gone – an actual break-up of the country would have to be achieved through economic leverages – IMV
Strangely enough, my own dirt has a history of longing to secede from Oregon and California and create a new State of Jefferson.
We would build a wall to keep Californians out…true story.
Michael,
At present it is not visually possible. An idea is not often possible when first spoken. It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.
When the idea of secession is spoken widely enough it will be heard. Have you ever lived in a southern state? The mindset there is so foreign to other parts of the country as to be unintelligible.
As for guns, I do not own guns as I have said many times. I recently spoke to a room full of gun owners. I asked them why they had all these assault weapons. They prevaricated. So I just flatly stated they have them because they do not trust the government. One hundred percent they agreed. They see the second amendment as a hedge against our own government.
It is easy to see how any resistance can be subdued but the will to subdue resistance is another matter. The people who will foment secession are much more willing to be radical than those who would subdue them.
Possible? It is definitely possible. Human history proves it. The moving borders of Europe illustrate it. We just have not seen it succeed in America. Our nation is young. Something will definitely happen to challenge a government that is increasingly progressive, coercive and immovable. Something will happen.
interrupting the thread apology here…
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” (Genesis 3:15)
i just realized that those words were directed to solely to Eve… where did that leave Adam?
(i haven’t looked up what the word was that is translated “enmity” – so i apologize for such a lazy question)
Now,
Let’s watch and see if Britain succeeds. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs them. They certainly contribute more. The intimidation that is coming from those who do not want to leave will be furious. Governmental covenants are not broken without suffering. I am not sure the short term suffering is endurable by this slender majority.
We will see. I think the opposition to leaving EU has not even begun to fight yet.
okay, i read on a bit, God told Adam that he was going to die, but it was going to be a “long, slow roll into a 6 foot hole” to quote an old cowboy song… sorry for the interruption
Em,
Enmity is the violent hatred it sound like.
Eve and Adam were covenantally one and not perceived with the individuality we know. Eve is cited here because the fruit of her womb will be the one to end the tyranny of the serpent.
Those words are not SOLEY to Eve. The battle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent was not gender exclusive
BD,
My ancestors are Southern on one side and Native American on the other, so I have some understanding and inherited having a close connection to the land itself.
My question to all those who are so angry with the government…who elected these people?
Other people did…and those people will become as much the enemy as the government itself….
What is the mission of the church in such a time of division?
The mission of the church is the Gospel. Your question need more definition.
BD,
I stand corrected, you are right of course.
In the Civil War godly men encouraged the slaughter of other godly men.
As I’ve said before, the premier theologian of the time was Stonewall Jackson’s chaplain.
Can we do better than they in promoting reconciliation and peace?
“It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.”
Michael,
Your number #26 is knocking at the door of the issue. If you follow the money, you will find out who is in charge. It is the corruption of the vote by big donations and lack of transparency that causes ordinary people to feel a loss of representation.
But it works both ways. people who can’t understand why we can’t have universal background checks, for example, feel like politicians are beholden to a powerful, yet minority, special interest. So, I tend to blame and follow the money.
If you’re not a player, then you don’t get very much representation.
I think the Brits will experience heavy buyer’s remorse. It’s already being reported that 2+ million of them are demanding a second referendum.
Scotland and NI will vote to leave GB so they can rejoin the EU (a majority in both countries voted to remain).
To have the GB “Exit” leader say barely before the votes are counted that the $ promised to the National Health Service was a “mistake” and won’t happen. Not to mention his promise on immigration
Wow.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending
bob1,
My question is what will those people who feel betrayed by the instant recantations do?…
Michael,
Good question.
It’s not enough to tear something down…unless you have something better to replace it with.
I mean, it always feels good to poke a sharp stick in an enemy’s eye.
But once that’s done…you have to live with the consequences.
thank you, BD – food for thinking on today
reminds me that it isn’t just Believers that the devil hates
“It is however possible for people who sense the loss of self-government to refuse to submit to what they perceive to be totalitarianism.”
Can anyone here tell me who these folks are who are interested in self government? How many of these people show up at a city council meeting to help “self govern”? How many people show up at an election of just state initiatives or bond issues?
I say no one is interested in self governing.
Europe had a fine history politically and financially without the EU and can survive just fine without it. What I want to see is each country take over their fair share of their own defense and let the US have a breather.
If Scotland leaves and Northern Ireland leaves, and I do not think they will but if they do England is more solidly LEAVE.
If 2 million signatures on a petition could reverse an election they have worse problems to declare your election invalid because of buyer’s remorse is a whole new kind of nutty. Americans have that remorse after every election.
and Michael,
I will assert again that peace is not our mission the Gospel is our mission. Jesus divided the world he lived in. I am not advocating war but England peacefully voted to secede the EU. They should be allowed to do so. If I were in England I would be advocating for as much.
Jesus divided the world into those for and against him…not politically within earthly governments.
I’ll just say this and be done with it.
Too many Christians are putting the kingdom of God below the kingdoms of men in priority and believe that their political division and rage is sanctioned by God Himself.
This is madness…utter insanity and idolatry and they will be the first to kill a brother in Jesus’s name under a political banner.
BD,
I agree with Michael. The Kingdom of God transcends governments and political groups. If you conflate the 2, you’re headed for all kinds of horror.
Besides — isn’t Jesus the Prince of Peace? I don’t see where he’s called the Prince of Conflict or the Prince of Rage. True, a couple things he said lean that way — but the NT thrust is easily toward the One who came to bring peace — individually and groupwise.
I believe that it’s still true that peacemakers are blessed.
bob1
Did John the Baptist conflate the two when he lost his head?
Did Jesus conflate the two when confronted with political questioning by Pilate?
Did Paul conflate the two when in Rome?
These deaths were all fomented because political powers would not accommodate claims that voided their hegemony.
There was no private faith secular/sacred dichotomies for the early believers.
Jesus sent them to die for claims that would be deemed political insurrection.
We have to think better than this.
Clarify your critique because it fell flat.
The Prince of Peace threw us into all kinds of suffering.
When you critique me realize that I have advocated no bloody response.
Everyone Jesus sent to make peace lost their head in intolerance of the body politic.
So what are you saying to me?
Jesus sent us to die not to make war but our very presence makes war with the powers
“Europe had a fine history politically and financially without the EU and can survive just fine without it. What I want to see is each country take over their fair share of their own defense and let the US have a breather.”
the first sentence in that declaration makes no sense to me … what history books did i miss?
however, the second sentence is one that makes all the sense in the world to me … amen
BD,
I agree with your #39, but so far I haven’t seen a Christian group do that, which I think is what Michael is also saying. Where are Christians in America getting persecuted for declaring the Jubilee?
It wasn’t an election. It was a referendum.
Also, Scotland is very likely to re-voting on the question of whether or not to leave the UK. I think this time they will leave and align with the EU over England.
They’ve already got their own parliament and other infrastructure in place to do so. The previous vote to leave was not successful, but the time might be right now.
Scotland has a long standing hatred of the English “invaders”.
I’m not as certain that NI will make a move anytime soon.
This is exactly the kind of response I expect more of, if there be a response at all.
The conflict in the first century was not between different branches of earth born political interests, but between the kingdom of God versus the kingdoms of men.
Unless you’re prepared to offer an apologetic that says one political entity has the imprimatur of God, then the dichotomy is false.
My guess is that once again those who believe their politics do indeed bear that imprimatur will gladly dispose of those of us who disagree, though we are of the same true kingdom.
Just saw a news report on CNN. There has been a 1000 year flooding event in West Virginia with 32 lives lost. Untold loss and damage to homes and infrastructure as well to an area not doing well financially.
Three major fires in California, Arizona, and New Mexico have taken lives and the loss and damage to homes is unknown. Tens of thousands of acres have been burnt. Texas has been through hellish flooding as well recently.
I take a look at our local news and daily senseless violence is taking innocent lives. Yesterday in a city close by two officers were shot at a traffic checkpoint. They are going to survive. Drug use is rampant and we see the effects of that in our neighborhood through local crimes being committed. Our church was broken into by someone looking for money.
Go across the nation and we find that everywhere these things are taking place in virtually every city.
Families everywhere have loved ones fighting serious illness and others who have recently been lost to them.
Our children are rebelling and fleeing the church.
Then we just suffered through Orlando.
I am sure there’s much more I’m not aware of.
As a father and grandfather I shudder at the world waiting for them. I wish I could whisk them up and take them somewhere safe. I realize that isn’t possible.
There are unspeakable horrors taking place all around us without considering what’s taking place outside of our borders.
It seems it’s out of our control now and any hope of national revival just isn’t going to happen as events play out.
My heart is sad for all of this and the only answer I see is Jesus. Will we as individuals and churches rise above the fray to make a difference where we can?
Yet these are the times God has placed each of us and His promises are still true. He is still in control. Yet I still grieve.
the Christian offers peace to world, not thru war or passivity, but by standing –
i believer this in context? 2 Cor. 10:3-6 … i must admit that i pondering verse , however
Time to Dreaxit for the day. We are talking past each other.
I Remain Dread
#44-when i was a child we were drawn into a world conflict that we somehow were convinced that we could/must save the world from the evils on the march in Europe and the Far East – we were the white knights who’d rescue the world and that carried on into the late 40s – many blamed Truman for stopping MacArthur (General Douglas, not Pastor John) from chasing the North Koreans and the Chinese all the way back to Beijing, or wherever… when the French failed in Vietnam, well, call in the U.S. to save the day etc.
i think so many of the problems, particularly in our neighborhoods, are the result of believing it was our duty to save the world – spending over half a century focusing our resources (God-given, IMO) on saving the world and as we know even God, Himself hasn’t been able to do that… well… He IS able, but man won’t buy into it
i have to consider that the turmoil we see all around us is ramping up… what that means and what to tell my children and grandchildren to do to be ready for the chaos that is staging … but i pray for God to intervene, nevertheless and He may … or it just might be the approach of that “Great and terrible Day…” the one that some say we’ll go through and some say we’ll go up … it’s even possible that some will go up and some of us will go through (not, JWit’ style, tho)
God keep all close and comforted – He IS able
The so called “kingdom of men” has been set up by God himself and to the benefit of men. May I ask why when some news worthy item comes up we pit the two kingdoms against each other?
Michael – your pessimism sounds just like a different form of dispensationalism. There is nothing we can do to better the kingdom of men that is going to be pleasing to God. Would a different vote have put a smile on God’s face. Would different political candidates make God slap an angel on the back and say “well now my kids are acting like the kingdom people I expected.”
If people were biblical instead of hysterical they would read Matt 24 clearly when Jesus says “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.”
Two points (1) all these things were predicted to happen in the general sense of worldwide turmoil – but it is a sign, not that the end is here but that we can be assured that there is an end. (2) Jesus did not tell us (The Church) to do anything about it – in fact I would think that his message is “don’t even wring your hands over it.” (3) Move on and do the work of the Church – Preach the word – forgive the sins of the people and feed them the body and the blood.
It is so funny, 30 years ago the growth of the EU was directly orchestrated by the anti Christ and today it is something that is out of God’s will if it breaks up.
Preach on!
MLD,
You miss my point.
I just drove to the well stocked store on a well paved road without checkpoints, bought an imported Coca Cola and said hello to one of our local police officers.
I drove back home and noted that the electricity was still on, the garbage collected, and settled in to say whatever the hell I wanted to online.
I’m not wrapped in angst over the government.
My issue is that some folks think that their political views within a given system are straight from Sinai,usually on issues the Bible doesn’t address.
We are very divided and as BD spoke…there is secession talk and worse in the air.
#49-people ponder things and teachers point out the fallacies in our thinking – when it comes to human behaviors it is easier to do after the fact, however 🙂
yet, is there any thing in our lives that isn’t improved by searching the Scriptures?
and, yet, are there times for God sanctioned skepticism? i hope so
BD. Was that last comment to me?
London,
I think it was to me.
I raised his hackles… 🙂
I have to comment on this…
“President Obama has mass deported vast numbers of people — the most ever, and it’s never reported. I think people are going to find that I have not only the best policies, but I will have the biggest heart of anybody,” Trump said in an interview with Bloomberg Politics Saturday.
Pressed on whether he would issue mass deportations as he has called for in the past, Trump said: “No, I would not call it mass deportations.”
There is your American Brexit… backing off his most popular position.
I must go slam my hand in the car door to keep from further comment…
“My issue is that some folks think that their political views within a given system are straight from Sinai,usually on issues the Bible doesn’t address.”
So? I am sure that has always been so – and yet I doubt we will see a single shot fires in revolutionafter the election. Because some folks have strong feelings, does not mean that they are worthy to be spread by a secondary source.
As I said the other day – on the other side, none of the Hollywood elite will follow with their promise to leave the US if Trump is elected.
There is your American Brexit… backing off his most popular position.
All candidates run to the center after spending the primary season on the crazy fringe edges.
Hillary cannot run center yet until the convention for fear of those “feeling the Bern” will protest the convention.
Trump on the other hand can go center and in fact relieve the party loyalist
lol.
His hackles need raised once in a while. It’s good for him. 😉
Alex – this one is for you — The Armed Lutheran
http://www.armedlutheran.us/
Lies, damned lies, and Obama’s deportation statistics.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/
I decided today to watch the movie Spotlight. In light of my #44 today may not have been the best day to view it.
I remember it coming out last year and being saddened as so many used the movie to attack the Catholic church specifically and the church universal as well. That kept me from viewing it.
I read reviews and saw how other publications who did solid work in reporting the abuses Spotlight covered didn’t quite get their due.
But overall the facts as far as I could tell seem pretty accurate and what is saddening is these things go on in the Protestant churches as well at about the same rate.
A scene at the end of the movie shows a reporter walking by a room as one of his sources goes in to try and help two young victims. It put a face on the victims and that brought the sadness home in a powerful way.
I think of what happened in Orlando a number of weeks ago when so many were slaughtered in a nightclub that caters to the gay population. It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.
It seems open blogging at times turns into a single topic thread and I imagine my thoughts get lost in the conversation which I don’t mind at all. But at least I have a place to come to when I need to share things important to me at the time.
Erunner,
What does the gay bar shooting have to do with evangelicals covering up pedophila?
BD, lots of people claiming the faith, however misguided, were taking the moral high ground when homosexuals were killed in that sickening attack. They showed no heart for the victims and in fact many of them should have been humbled and ashamed at the moral depravity so prevalent in the church. Divorce, adultery, fornication, and yes pedophilia.
“It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.”
I personally don’t like to be lumped in with the evil some may be doing. If anyone is going to a church that is doing the above, you must make them stop … but don’t tell me THE CHURCH. Me and mine are not a part of the we.
99.9% of THE CHURCH does not put up with the crap that some do. I know the elders in my church (and I imagine most churches – like Steve W’s, Babs and Josh’s ) would take the bastard out back and beat him to near death.
And if there are 100 million Christians in America, how many were not horrified by Orlando – even if you could find 1,000 that is only .01%
We need to stop being victimized by shame that does not belong to us.
I appreciate it Erunner but there will never be a day when we cannot bemoan our own sins either self-righteousness or unrighteousness. I am glad that I personally did not hear or read anyone speaking poorly of the victims of that madman.
I did not hear anyone remotely claiming moral superiority over them. We must remember that it was not much earlier that a mass murderer went into a prayer meeting and killed innocent people there.
I do appreciate your sensitivity but I cannot bear guilt over every evil thing it is not bearable.
MLD, I understand that the vast majority in the church do not cover pedophilia up. I would say you woefully underestimate the number of people who use the name christian were not horrified by what took place in Orlando.
The facts are that parts of the church do cover up pedophilia. And I only spoke towards those that do. When I speak of the church I quite often include myself as one of the guilty parties but shame has nothing to do with it.
Pedophiles are not beyond the grace of God. What they do is terrible while ruining lives and driving others to suicide.
Dread, the outpouring of love and support was overwhelming when terrorists ravaged Paris. The support on FB for example was unbelievable. At the same time I brought up I think 62 Muslims that were slaughtered by Islamic terrorists that no one ever mentioned.
After Orlando what I saw from many conservative Christians had more to do with gun control than the loss of lives. I didn’t see much about how much God loved those homosexual victims that Jesus died for.
I don’t carry a personal guilt over what took place. Wasn’t it Samuel and possibly Joshua who when they approached God in prayer for the people used the word “we” when speaking of the sins of the people. That is why I choose to identify with the guilty. Also because I know it’s only by the grace of God I have never done the same or worse than those I spoke of earlier.
I am open to correction if I have misrepresented scripture.
I had also just read this article that was linked here prior to making my comments. And yes, I am aware of who the author is.
http://religionnews.com/2015/12/07/spotlight-its-not-just-a-catholic-problem/
E,
On the Weekend word thread in V. 13 / 14 Jesus describes the Church as Salt and Light. If the Church is not Salt and Light they are not the Church.
MLD, It seems this is what is drawing attention. Especially the second sentence.
“I think of what happened in Orlando a number of weeks ago when so many were slaughtered in a nightclub that caters to the gay population.”
“It made me realize how we as the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks.”
I guess I could have written….. it made me realize how some in the church have so sadly covered up and perpetuated pedophilia among our ranks. I think that would have been acceptable.
For me personally I’m fine with how I originally wrote it. I wasn’t intending to indict the church but instead choosing to identify with the guilty as I tried to share above.
You and Dread have given me much to think on and I appreciate it.
Erunner is – IMV – on to something, something that is hard to express or define and i probably won’t do it justice with this post, either…
exposure to sexuality in today’s world is quite a distorted one – i’d be willing to bet that most, not all, but most sex deviants are victims of what we’ve allowed our children to be exposed to and the subsequent pressures to fit in from an early age
susceptibility may be a factor, i don’t know – but what they’re now celebrating is in their minds, truly normal…
even though it would be an offense to them today, my heart breaks for what they’ve lost and what i hate is what society (us) has created, not its victims
i am not addressing the problem of genetics, but psychological deviancies
we, if not the Church, then the so-called “moral majority” lost the high ground long years ago – in the 50s and 60s…
in my opinion, i’m not speaking for God 🙂 – we rationalized our cowardice, moving from phony, if embarrassed, silence on to an awkward attempt to be cool, to make the Gospel relevant to the times – a distortion of Paul’s “all things to all men” perhaps?
we touched on how difficult it is to raise our children in these times and when to begin “the talk” … maybe, the Song of Solomon? dunno – God made us, He must have given us some instruction… it’s in there somewhere…
Em, watch out and take note – I am agreeing with you.
“we rationalized our cowardice, moving from phony, if embarrassed, silence on to an awkward attempt to be cool, to make the Gospel relevant to the times – a distortion of Paul’s “all things to all men” perhaps? ”
The theme of all things to all men is so distorted that most cannot even go back to the original meaning. So many are just so afraid to tell someone – especially other Christians – ‘you are wrong.’ It is even out of vogue here on the PP that you cannot tell a ‘brother’ he is wrong.
“You are wrong…” is one of my favorite Jesus sayings.
MLD,
You are right, it is your favorite saying.
Ditto Dread
those two posts by MLD and BD make me smile this morning
it hit me that what is wrong with the U.S. – drum roll – is that we’ve lost an understanding of “refinement” – today it is looked upon as company manners – a facade
folks who are mourning the loss of their Christian nation really are mourning the loss of an understanding and value of refinement – IMHO
i was thinking about my Holiness Movement grandparents – apart from their strict understanding of what it meant to walk as a child of God, they were refined – i’m not talking company manners or feigned purity – what you saw was two kind people with a good sense of humor … their anger was real, but tempered, their charity the same, honest to their cores, that is what they were behind closed doors also – they understood and practiced discretion…
not going to write a book here this morning, but that type of person wasn’t so rare in the first half of the 20th century – in or out of the church – at least in some parts of this country, in the part that i grew up in anyway
just an aha moment with a lot of rabbit trails that i’m thinking on today