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  1. Now this is a catchy song for the day;
    White Flag – Chris Tomlin

  2. Now, it is really sad that it is so theologically wrong – and it seems to be used as an anthem for young people.
    Is that why we have a relationship with Jesus – because we could not win?
    Is our relationship with Jesus is established – by our act of surrender?
    Does got take prisoners of war?
    When they say “on this Holy Ground, where is that Holy ground – the stadiums?
    And how exactly are they raising the cross?

    This just reinforces my claim, that Modern American Christianity (notice that I didn’t say evangelicals) is all about the Christian and not about the Christ.

  3. “Does got take prisoners of war?” Should read Does God…?”

  4. Ixtlan says:

    @1. I was talking with our worship leader about that song a few months ago. We were both noting that it really wasn’t among Tomlin’s better work., hey they’ll sell anything that people are willing to buy. Won’t be hearing it in our church.

    and mld, congratulations for having more posts than anyone else on this blog!

  5. Well remember, 1/3rd of them are my spelling corrections. 😉

    A good many of those comments probably came in those days when I was trying to expose Stephanie Drury and her lemmings as frauds.

  6. 😳 thank the Lord for MLD, otherwise i’d be #1 and #2 is embarrassing enough for someone who just pontificates here …

  7. Tim says:

    There’s something truly humorous about MLD having the most comments on the report, and then seeing the first three comments on this post be from him. :LOL:

  8. Alex says:

    MLD sure is toxic and comments 3 to 1 over the rest of us 😉 What a blow hard!

  9. Tim says:

    And good morning all…I hope everyone is doing fine. I don’t read the comments as much anymore, but I try to keep in touch with the articles.

  10. Alex says:

    MLD said, ” trying to expose Stephanie Drury and her lemmings as frauds.”

    That’s abusive language. You should be banned.

  11. Alex says:

    MLD, you were earlier carping to Paul Lytton and chiding him for taking shots at other Pastors etc who he didn’t even know etc and called it “gossip” etc…even though Paul has never done that, you lumped him in with others at CC Abuse.

    Yet, you have no problem calling Stephanie Drury a “fraud” and her friends and followers “lemmings” and “frauds”.

    I’m quite sure you don’t know her, etc. Why do you do the same thing you were incorrectly chiding a good guy like Paul Lytton for? (a guy who didn’t do what you said he did and even if he did, you’re doing the same/similar thing).

    You seem to have no problem making and communicating a public judgment on Steph, who you don’t know and aren’t a part of her Group etc. yet decry when others do similar/same…no?

  12. Alex says:

    How the HECK did I get 4th?!?!?! Geez! I’ve got a lot of catching up to do.

    And, this whole time the clique had me convinced I was the one “dominating” threads etc. I’m out-gunned 3 to 1 by the old lutheran geezer…and even beat by sweet Em and Josh the Paptest. What a sucker I am…

  13. Alex,
    This just goes to show that I was not talking about PAL gossiping etc. I asked him why he was offended when it happened here at the PP and was bold enough to talk about it and even interfere in our conversation… but absolutely refused to make similar comments when people gossip about Coy and Reis etc

    I never said PAL was the gossiper, I just wondered how he was able to put up with it at your place with no concern.

  14. As to Stephanie – I just take her at her word – her original interview – her comments on the blog – and her FB page.

    Let me be clear – she is genuine – a genuine fraud.

    But she is much like you – if you send her a private email, she posts it on her FB page.

  15. But what the heck, I am going to listen to that song I posted on top and praise myself for the things I do for Jesus. Everybody sing!! 🙂

  16. Alex says:

    MLD said, “Alex, This just goes to show that I was not talking about PAL gossiping etc. I asked him why he was offended when it happened here at the PP and was bold enough to talk about it and even interfere in our conversation… but absolutely refused to make similar comments when people gossip about Coy and Reis etc I never said PAL was the gossiper, I just wondered how he was able to put up with it at your place with no concern.

    Maybe it’s poor communication on your part, but this gives an impression that PAL is part of the “gossiping” etc:

    “Martin Luther’s Disciple says:
    January 4, 2013 at 9:01 pm
    this is really kind of funny. I know that you participate over at Alex’s blog – talk about a place of verbal abuse and insult! The only difference, and you do this in front of a public audience also – is that you don’t verbally abuse each other nor do you insult each other – but you do so to 3rd parties who aren’t there to defend themselves.

    Gossip abounds – since most of you have never met nor interacted with the accused parties but just rely on the hearsay contributions of others. Probably 90% of the CCAbuse participants have never met nor interacted with Bob Grenier, yet you guys toss verbal abuse and insult his way.(he may be guilty as hell, but you don’t know it for sure unless you have 1st hand experience.

    Why is that acceptable for your continued participation – but my discussion with Alex on the clarity of the scripture – regardless of the added heat is not being sensitive to onlookers.

    You are either a puss or the world’s biggest hypocrite.”

    For someone (MLD) who “dominates” the blog with far-and-away the most posts…maybe you could work on communicating more clearly if you are claiming I misunderstood your attack on PAL.

    I do like your closing statement though…as applied to you…only with one edit:

    “You are either [confused often] or the world’s biggest hypocrite”

  17. Alex says:

    MLD, maybe you should start your own blog since you like to comment so much over here.

    I’m thinking something like: (Can’t Remember S***) 😆

  18. does anybody know why store bought bread is covered in little bits of seeds ‘ stuff that fall off all over the counter, inside the toaster and onto everything that you pass by in getting it from the wrapper to your stomach? … a nice crust on a loaf of bread used to be a thing of beauty in the old days; all smooth and shiny and tan … it didn’t require hauling out a broom and dust pan or the vacuum cleaner after opening a bread wrapper … in the good old days 😐

    now i’m gone – God keep

  19. Alex, since grammar is not your strong point, the “you” in the body of my post is the plural “you” – speaking of the participants in general.
    The last “you” was to Paul in that he is hypocritical when he chooses who to criticize.

    But don’t bother me, I am praising God for all I do for him. 🙂

  20. LOL…check this out! The White House wins the internets for the day! A response to the petition to build a Death Star.

    And for the win: Why would we spend countless taxpayer dollars on a Death Star with a fundamental flaw that can be exploited by a one-man starship?

    Sorry my Star Wars geekery is showing.

  21. Alex, pretty sure you would’ve been on top. Remember, you were banned for part of 2012. (Just sayin’…not trying to start anything.)

    MLD, I absolutely hated that song when it first came out. Then I was really disappointed the first time it was sung at church. I don’t disagree with you, but I decided to just take it with a grain of poetic license. After all, aren’t we called to “surrender all to You, our all to You.”?

  22. Michael, thanks for the wordpress link. That was a joy to read!

    “Maybe God isn’t finished with us yet…” Exactly!

  23. Alex,

    Did you read my #101 on Jan.8 “The Real Problem”? I wanted you to see it to show you there are those that understand the goodness in you. You are not just a fighter, you are a protecting warrior.

  24. I did some checking and I really can’t find anything that says God’s purpose is to beat us into surrender. I also could not find a New Testament person who surrendered to God – not even the Apostle spoke in that language.

    But that song seems to be an anthem song at a very large youth rally. Chris Tomlin knows what all worship leaders know – you teach doctrine through song.

    Bad doctrine – bad song.

    I wonder if any of the pastors at that youth conference said to Tomlin “what the hell are you teaching our kids???” Probably not – they didn’t want to ruin the high.

  25. Alex says:

    CK said, “Alex, pretty sure you would’ve been on top. Remember, you were banned for part of 2012. (Just sayin’…not trying to start anything.)”

    Actually I wasn’t officially banned for that long. There was much that was self-imposed due to the peer pressure on here and convincing me that I was “dominating” all the threads etc. Seems the data supports the claim that I am no longer the dominating poster. I’m in 4th now and hope to move further down that list and take longer breaks on here.

    Interesting that MLD (empirically verified) posts so much…but no outcry to ban him or no accusations of “dominating”. Seems a bit hypocritical or at the very least inconsistent.

    Paul, no, I missed that comment. Thanks for that, though I’m not sure. I take insults much better than praise. The praise makes me uncomfortable, which is probably why I post so much on here…I like the abuse 😉

  26. Alex says:

    MLD said, “Alex, since grammar is not your strong point, the “you” in the body of my post is the plural “you” – speaking of the participants in general.
    The last “you” was to Paul in that he is hypocritical when he chooses who to criticize.”

    Oh, since you are Lutheran I took it as a literal “you” as in the “this is my body and blood” and not some appeal to grammar to generalize your statement and change the meaning. 😉

  27. erunner says:

    My posts are being rejected for some reason…..

  28. in MLD’s defense, if the tally was word count, he’d be waaay down the list 🙄

    now i’m gone

  29. Alex says:

    Em said, “in MLD’s defense, if the tally was word count, he’d be waaay down the list”

    Doubtful. I’d like to see those numbers.

    Now, if it was “being correct” count…then I’m with you…waaaaayyyyy down the list 😆

  30. Steve Wright says:

    For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men. – Martin Luther

  31. erunner says:

    I would like to hear from Chris what he was trying to communicate when he wrote this song. I don’t see it as some sort of self glorification at all. I see it more as a person realizing that living and battling in this life through our own efforts are futile. I can relate to that. Surrendering in this case may simply mean seeking to turn over these areas in our life over to a loving and forgiving God. The result being a life impacted with renewed love and recognition for what Christ has already done for us. Just another opinion.

    The battle rages on
    As storm and tempest roar
    We cannot win this fight
    Inside our rebel hearts
    We’re laying down our weapons now

    We raise our white flag
    We surrender
    All to You
    All for You

    We raise our white flag
    The war is over
    Love has come
    Your love has won

    Here on this Holy ground
    You made a way for peace
    Laying your body down
    You took our rightful place

  32. Paige says:

    Hmmmm. Interesting review of 2012 on the PhxP……. particularly the top 5 commenting voices…… two of whom I never bother to read and just scroll past. Sorry, but true…I don’t need anger or sarcasm in my life …… nor arrogance. Boring, eh? 🙂 Life is too short.

  33. Alex says:

    LOL to Steve’s #31. Our “top commenter” sure is wrong a lot 🙂

  34. Linnea says:

    Tim at #7…ha ha! Agreed!

  35. Alex,
    “and not some appeal to grammar to generalize your statement and change the meaning.”

    Sorry to hear that your grammar deficiency is greater than I thought. The plural you is used in the English language as much as the singular.

  36. Steve, even if that is a true Luther quote, surrender is not a biblical concept. Did Lazarus REALLY surrender to Jesus – or did he just lay their dead, not only not doing anything, but not even knowing there was anything to do?

    That is the problem with folks who think that they must give Jesus some help. People seem to want to change the meaning of the word and make it a special Christian word.

    Erunner, the idea of the song is that by their own actions, they have come into a relationship with Jesus. Today, Jesus is not at war with people – Jesus made peace with people on the cross – not in a stadium singing an anthem on Holy ground.

    Paige, I don’t read the girl threads. 🙂

    There I put 3 in 1 to cut down my comments.

  37. Steve Wright says:

    The Lazarus Luther referenced (and it was cited on the blog) was the Luke one – the poor man at the rich man’s gate – not the John chapter 11 Lazarus.

    Submitting to God is certainly a Biblical concept (and I could cite NT verses for you if your concordance is unavailable). Is the concept of submission (like a slave) so different than the concept of surrender?

    I guess my main point would be your insistence that the idea of surrender to God is somehow a new invention of those whacky “modern American Christians.”


  38. Steve,,
    I found Luther’s sermon, and he is not talking about an unbeliever surrendering and raising a white flag because he realizes he is beat.
    He is talking about how the believer lives.

    That is why I brought up earlier that the Apostle Paul did not talk about his conversion as being his own surrender – but the act of God.

    Here is the sermon.

  39. Steve Wright says:

    In other words, MLD, what Erunner said @32 – You know, the Christians singing that song in present tense as to their lives, and in past tense as to the cross.

    A quick google of Lutheran hymnals shows the hymn “I Surrender All” as well represented. Problem?

    In fact, we could cite many a hymn with that idea proclaimed. “Take My Life and Let it Be”, “When I Survey The Wondrous Cross”

    And please don’t now argue you only were speaking of conversion. Remember, “I am going to listen to that song I posted on top and praise myself for the things I do for Jesus” (post 15)

    First rule of holes, MLD. 😉

    Enjoy the evening.

  40. From looking at dictionary definitions of both. It appears that submission is to voluntarily submit to a higher authority while surrender is being forced to yield to a superior power. Actually quite a bit of difference, It actually seems to me that an act of God in conversion would actually be closer to surrender in that context since it is something that you naturally would not want to do.

  41. You can point to hynals and sermon quotes (and Lutherans can also fall into terrible theology) But you still have not pointed to a biblical example of Jesus calling on people to surrender, to lay down their weapons and to raise the white flag.

    Submission is not equal to surrender.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    So in that Luther sermon, (which once you found out was legitimate you explained as perfectly proper teaching) was Luther just using the wrong word?

    You guys can talk about being ‘forced to yield’ but bottom line is every surrender, by definition, is a voluntary response to a demand from a superior. The alternative being you fight till the death. That’s why guys fly the white flag, so they won’t get shot when they come out!

    But aren’t we forced to submit too? At least if we accept the superior authority of the Bible. All of God’s commands are voluntary you know. Not just the command to submit to God.

    And I challenge you to find a thesaurus that does not list surrender and submission as synonyms.

    Usually when a common English word (of today) is not found in the concordance, it is because another common English word was used by the translators. Best to find that word, then look it up in your Greek and Hebrew concordance, and do your word study homework.

    And a final point – nobody is talking about conversion except MLD who needs to in order to support his snark. Tomlin, the old hymn writers, Luther, Calvin, people like Andrew Murray (Absolute Surrender) and Elizabeth Eliott (Joyful Surrender) are ALL talking about Christian living.

  43. Glen says:

    James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God……….

  44. Surrender and submission might be synonyms according to a thesaurus, but the difference between surrender (forced) and submission (yield voluntarily) is huge. Surrender is something enemies are forced to do by a victor. I would see this as closer to what happens at conversion. Submission is what takes place when you want to please your superior, this is what the christian life is about. I think the problem comes in modern culture having no filter between the two.

  45. Whether Luther used the right word or not is not relevant – I am not defending Luther. I am looking at the lack of proper theology.

    I don’t talk at all about “forced to yield” – not in my theological vocabulary.Not even forced to submit.

    Submission vs surrender. So when your wife is to be in submission to you, it is because she realized that the fight could not be won, that she had to lay her weapons down and she had to raise the white flag to you? Like that?

    I looked through some of my library – not a good googler, since there is so much misinformation – but I looked through the indexes of
    Nave’s Topical Bible
    Elwell’s Topical Analysis of the Bible
    Elwell’s Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible
    Donald Gutherie’s New Testament Theology
    Berkhof’s Systematic Theology
    The Moody Handbook of Theology
    Grudem’ Systematic Theolgy

    Not one of them had an indexed reference to surrender – not the word, but the topic or even the idea.

    I will stick with the first two CC guys way at the top (Ixtlan & Captain Kevin who agreed that they were quite troubled by the song.

  46. I should have piggy backed this with the last one so it wouldn’t count as 2 posts. 🙂

    Is Tomlin saying that as a Christian he was at war with Jesus and as a Christian he realized that he was still armed against God and that as a Christian he decided to raise the White Flag?

    Are Christians at war with Jesus?

  47. I agree with MLD in a way. Now that I think about it those song lyrics could be troubling, Christians are not enemies with God, therefore surrender is no longer an operative term there.
    But, I don’t find them troubling, because I think the writer probably didn’t have a clue as to what surrender means and thinks of it in terms of submission.
    Night all.

  48. Ixtlan says:


  49. brian says:

    I went on a trek this weekend, I went to a memorial service 9 hours drive away and had to be back the next day. It would have been easy to say I could not make it, and it would have been fine with people. But I “felt” moved to do something to support them. I will admit being “moved” (emotional) by anything is not of God but I was. It was wonderful because it touched several of the people there, one even “apologized” for somethings done in the past. I let that go but was grateful for the statement. What truly meant something to me was, it gave comfort to those I love.

    I never gave much credence to works salvation type rhetoric, I never once did anything hoping I would find some remembrance from God. I mean this, each day my heart beats, I consider that grace from God. I have always considered God should have taken me out, even before the day I was born. I really mean that. It seems I cant hate myself enough, but I still found peace in this trip.

    Having lost so many people this year it really was wonderful to hear comfort given to people. MLD said something to me, and I thank him for that, I should just accept the Gospel of Jesus. I will admit I listened to bible cd’s on the trip, and heard what I think was the “Gospel” at the memorial service. I kept what he said in mind, I struggle with being hurt by people. I admit that, not because they hurt me “personally” I always figured I have it coming in spades. But when others are hurt, I cant seem to get in tune with that.

    If you dont think I fall on my face daily to Christ for forgiveness, and beg for the Gospel, you really dont know me, though I will admit it is hard to know me given my rantings on this blog. I see the “church” in America as a reality tv show, scripted for effect, but unrealistic at best. Of course I could be wrong, but trust me there is not a day that goes by that I do not see the redemptive work of Christ in this world.

  50. filbertz says:

    good thing I don’t comment often…leads to too much angst. Too much angst leads to writing Chris Tomlin-like lyrics. Chris Tomlin-like lyrics leads to bad haircuts. One needs plenty of hair in order to wear bad haircuts, so I’ll simply post at about the same frequency.

  51. filbertz says:

    I’m en route to Fort Lewis in Washington to welcome back my son, Taylor, from his deployment to Afghanistan. It will be awesome to see his shy grin again. May they all be back soon.

  52. Alex says:

    Paige said, “I don’t need anger or sarcasm in my life …… nor arrogance”

    Hate to break it to you Paige, but Michael is one of the most sarcastic and angst-ridden writers I follow. Michael and Gustavo Arrellano over at OC Weekly are probably my two favorites exactly due to their sarcasm and angst etc.

    Except for “Make Your Own Application”, Michael’s writings are laced with sarcasm and cutting wit. Personally I love it. It’s what attracted me here in the first place.

    Not sure how you miss that, but you seem to be able to compartmentalize his sarcasm, yet are very sensitive to the sarcasm of others. Not knocking you, we’re all human and tend to see things myopically. Just interesting that’s all.

  53. Some people just can’t let anything slide.

  54. Em says:

    #52 is the most important comment made on this thread – so far

  55. Good old Fort Lewis – I was stationed there for parts of 1970 & 1971

  56. PP Vet says:

    In the spirit of open blogging, it did my heart good to see the Broncos lose yesterday.

    I guess football is just a business to some, while to others it is a religion.

    Same thing could be said of religion, I guess.

  57. Glad he is coming home. Is he part of the Stryker Brigade stationed there?

  58. erunner says:

    What an absolute agonizing way for the Broncos to lose. I was surprised they went so conservative at certain points playing not to lose. But that last TD with 30 seconds left was an absolute meltdown on defense. And then Peyton’s last interception….

    I never would have thought the 49ers would have walloped the Packers the way they did. Weren’t the Packers and Broncos supposed to be playing each other in the Super Bowl?

    I feel a Chris Tomlin song stirring in me……

  59. J.U. says:

    Folks here in Denver are shocked. But it isn’t the first time. Thinking about the loss to the Jaguars at home some fifteen or twenty years ago. I’ve been there when the Broncos won a playoff game that they should not have (Houston Oilers), but I missed this game where they lost but should have won. At least I stayed warm. Had to listen on the radio, but the heater was working.

  60. London says:

    Spent yesterday in Mexico with some fantastic folks delivering toys to hundreds of kids there.
    Struck most this time with how dirty it was with trash strewn everywhere, and how much not only the people, but also the animals are suffering. Many skinny, dirty dogs running around and a few scrawny horses and cows roaming free.
    Poverty doesn’t just hit people in the pocketbook. Seems to be a soul sickness as well.
    Glad to be back
    in the USA.

  61. London says:

    Please hug him big and tell him thanks for his service. We are proud of him!

  62. Fly on a Wall says:

    I love this place!

    Reading through the comments is like sitting at the best dinner party in the world.

    God Bless you and your loved ones in 2013.

  63. Fly on a Wall says:

    My new year’s goal: to pray at least once a week that God will destroy China’s and North Korea’s slave labor camps. That the word of God can freely be preached there and God’s people can freely worship him as they please.

    Hey, it’s open blogging, right?

  64. Lutheran says:


    Hard to argue with your #64. Have you seen the book by the guy who escaped from North Korea? It’s a godless hellhole.

    Let’s save our prayers for places where persecution is really happening. The US would not be one of those places. I like what Rachel Held Evans said (HT Internetmonk):

    “There are indeed Christians being persecuted around the world. There are Christians who break the law by gathering together for church, Christians whose family members have been executed for their beliefs, Christians who have been imprisoned for following Jesus, Christians who live in poverty and fear as a result of their faithfulness.

    That’s persecution.

    Being wished “happy holidays” instead of “merry Christmas” is not persecution. Being prohibited from persecuting others (by forcing Jewish kids to pray Christian prayers in a public school, for example) is not persecution. Not getting your way in every area of civic life is not persecution.

    And I’m pretty sure that when the apostle Peter wrote his letter to the persecuted Church of Asia Minor, encouraging his fellow Christians to be brave in the face of oppression by the Roman government, he was not referring to Christians getting snubbed at Domitian’s inauguration ceremony.

    We dishonor the memory of the millions of Christians who have suffered very real persecution through the centuries when we confuse a lack of privileged status with persecution. As Robert Cargill has noted: ‘There is a difference between persecution and the loss of privileged status. Just because you didn’t get what you want doesn’t mean that you are persecuted. It means you can’t have everything.'”

  65. Fly on a Wall says:


  66. Em says:

    #64 & #65 – it is almost mandatory to pray for the persecuted Christians, is it not? to pray for the whole Church as we pray for our own needs? have you folks spotlighted one reason why our prayers for our own interests aren’t answered?
    the persecuted could be us (they are us) – we fear hatred will gain more ground and it will be our children’s tomorrow … pray indeed

  67. filbertz says:

    Just pulled in from Fort Lewis and points north…Taylor was delightful to hang out with, deployment really rounded him out, and he is looking and sounding really good. He only had 48 hours leave for now, but will have extended time fairly soon. They have a lot of debriefing/restocking stuff to do as well and resuming PT…groan. The reuniting time was really emotional with several hundred soldiers and tons of parents, spouses, and children all awaiting their soldiers. The Army doesn’t have to do a thing to make it a very powerful experience. My wife wept like a baby. We met extended “family” the moms and siblings of Taylor’s closest soldier-friends who were there–they all treated Taylor like a son. I guess he is the one who kept them all laughing and sane over there…and those mamas loved that.

    Derek–yes he’s part of the Stryker Brigade.

  68. erunner says:

    In my little world it appears that by dumping Internet Explorer my problems have been solved. This post should show in several seconds. Happiness! 🙂

  69. Chile says:

    Filbertz, I’m really happy for you and your wife getting to see Taylor.

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