FWIW – why should the evangelicals or anyone else give the concupiscence (one of my grandmother’s favorite terms for the subject) of anyone any exposure? Did Trump claim to walk with God? Aren’t we instructed that it is a shame to speak of such? Eph 5:12
That said, isn’t the lady in question guilty of blackmail? Isn’t asking for money to keep quiet blackmail?
Guess the volcano in Hawaii proves that there is no God of love…. but pray for eveyone’s safety just in case. ?
Proverbs 26:17 (Interfering in someone Else’s argument is as foolish as yanking a dog’s ears.) Some lessons there in how we treat Trump. I believe Trump over Stormy but really the big looser here is the drive-by media that won’t let this go. Their hatred towards Trump is ending up discrediting themselves over and over again.
I’ve made it known here that I am not a Trump fan or voter…but I will say this…I’m more and more convinced that I need to pray for him instead of run roughshod over him online…besides we as believers are commanded to pray for those in power. I also echo your comment about the media and their almost frothing at the mouth hatred or our President…for example CNN has almost NEVER posted a positive story about Trump, but indeed has dug in with this porn star story…I think the media in general has abandoned news reporting and has become pure opinion pieces and social commentary.
Thanks Steve! I know Trump claims to be a believer, and/or others claim he is one. All the more reason to pray for him. Honestly just a while ago is the first time I prayed for Trump. Ive also decided I’m not going to dump on him anymore on blogs…here or elsewhere. There enough garbage out there on the web and elsewhere.
I’m glad. I thought it was pretty interesting that it ran in the magazine William F.
Buckley founded. There are a fair number of “antiTrump” conservatives.
Speaking of Buckley, I still remember “Firing Line,” where he would square off
against one-or-another liberal type. Loved the debating! They’d actually talk
about issues and policy…it was spirited but I don’t remember it ever being
mean.
For years I have listened to the claim that the amil position is anti semetic and how we replace Israel with the church.
The linked article shows how the rapture / dispensationalist position is an anti Christian position and how it has played out in the Middle East – promoting a kind of ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians.
This is not some misunderstanding of Rapture theology / Pre mil Dispensationalism — this is it carried out in action.
FWIW here, … again
MLD, the Church does replace Israel for a time…. Whatever the plan of God is, for now, He is working an interesting mystery of grace building a special category of Believers out of the not so wise, not so noble and maybe, not so smart souls – humble born again ones to spread His redemption message…
I don’t know if He’ll terminate this dispensation of grace mil or amil, but the millennial reign of Christ makes sense to me (as does a pre-wrath exit of the Church)… It fits with the thoroughness that seems to be God’s way. .. So?
So, I’ll trust the teachers who espouse that interpretation of Old and New Testament prophesy…. if we had a.betting pool on it, i think my side would clean up… but then all that money would be useless, eh? ?
I’ll be happy either way, but as some say, “come soon, Lord Jesus,” …. come soon
Em, you probably did not read the article or you would not be boasting of your position. I am pleased that you do own the position of ‘different’ believers – that the church us a different believer. A bit of a heresy but definitely in line with the dispute position.
One correction as you say you don’t know if God will end things amil or pre.
Amil is not an end times position – it is descriptive of the Church age between the 2 advents.
The end i am referring to is the climactic conclusion of this present condemned earth – before the new heavens and earth…. I believe i am correct that amil view of that event is as i stated… I was not attempting to define your view of God’s history with man
I remember back in the days of CC involvement the very pro-Israel, pro-Zionist stance that everyone was expected to accept. When I went to Israel, I was still in that way of thinking, mainly owing to “end times” teaching. Then I had to emotionally square that thinking with my Christian Palestinian guides showing such reverence for the holy sites and always referring to “Our Lord”. It changed my perception. One of the shameful results of the evangelical position in this matter, in my opinion, has been our abandonment of the many Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land who are diminishing year by year…
And, no, i didn’t read the article as i knew you wouldn’t have posted the link, if it was honest and cogent in its representation…. I don’t take time for such, but i wil go read it now… if i think i need to post another pontification correcting this comment after doing so i will ?
em, in the amil scheme of things, the only event left is the return of Jesus to judge.
See the sheep and goats story Matt 25:31-46 for the complete details.:-)
But the point of the article is that Jews in Israel are more important than the church in Israel – that is damning.
Re. MLD’s link…
Christian evangelicals are causing harm to Palestinian Christians? There are so many nuances to this dynamic, that a comment here would serve no purpose. The Church is caught up in the flow of history again….
#18 – hmmm…. rogue christians in the United States are responsible for the tribulations of christians living in the holy land…. that is indeed damning…
What about all the “correct” christians, who absolve themselves by finger pointing and a prayer or two? No matter, i understand the Pope is now working things out with the Saudis, so we will yet see world peace – take heart and wait patiently…
Unbelieving Jews, as i understand it, have quite a trial yet to hit their land (yes, i believe it is their land). It is God, Himself, who is in charge of justice, “alls well that ends well”
#16 Duane, I agree regarding the Palestinian Christian Christians. Even today among the CC crowd, one is expected to love all things Israel. There seems to be more of a commitment to the Jews than to the fellow Christian Palestinians. When I have gone into the West Bank and have spoken with Palestinian Christians, I have come to understand their plight. The people with whom I have spoken are largely victims of the politics of the Middle East and are confined to the West Bank. It is sad and I feel for them.
Christians often use the OT verse regarding Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you . . .” But there has never been a mandate to the church to be supportive of Israel (nor to be against Israel, for that matter). When you put a human face and voice to an individual, he or she becomes more than a “Palestinian” or an “enemy of the Jews”. So many of them are OUR brothers and sisters in Christ. That necessitates the divorcing of Middle East politics from my faith in Christ.
Divorcing faith from the world’s politics makes all the sense
One thing that we can hold onto is that our God is in charge of history, the world leaders are there by His choice, no matter the circumstances or our iinterpretations of what is prophesied….
Now i think i’ll watch some of the most beautiful of God’s creatures run the hearts out for some of God’s most .?… erring ? The ones in His image at one time at least….
em, the point of the article is not political – it is not an Arab / Israeli thing. The complaint from the Palestinian churches is that the American evangelical churches do not and will not help the Arab churches. My comment will be that 100% of the effort and money into the Middle East goes to unbelieving pagan Israel to build up and fulfill the premillennial dispensational game plan.
Today if a call went out American evangelicals to either rebuild the Temple and begin the sacrificial system over – or provide money to build 20 new Palestinian churches in Israel, I know where the money would go.
MLD, i think the Israeli government was very canny in recognizing the fact that the evangelical belief was that their return to the land was fulfillment of prophesy. That made us very useful fools. I say “fools” because they are a very secular group not now recognizing Giod, let alone our religion. Their survival was dependent on U.S. support and the evangelicals have had some influence since Eisenhower. Their nation, on the other hand has served the U.S. also.
If the devout Jew in that country had his way we wouldn’t even be allowed in as tourists. But as i see it, God isn’t finished with them yet and if they knew what that meant, they’d be scared to death.
The Jew over there who now accepts Jesus as Messiah is just the same as you or me in God’s eyes, i think we’d agree…. not dispensation dependent conclusion.
There are, i believe, more in your camp, the traditional and the orthidox, so why isn’t the rest of the Christian community doing what the evangelical is now accused of not doing for the persecuted Palestinian Christian? Even if the. evangelical is wrong, why is it their responsibility to do what your camp can do?
One other thing that i’m pondering… we are talking about the unfolding of world history here (didn’t say end times)and i believe that history unfolds exactly as God intends, so right or wrong, the evangelical is playing the role God intended from the beginning of time…
The Israeli Palestinian conflict has many facets, many exploiters and far too many bad guys… just like the rest of the world… don’t take the easy out and blame the dispensational evangelical …. there’s always an outside chance that the nutty Jew loving Christian is right where God placed him now… My advice to the rest of us is to just mutter a quiet “tsk, tsk” and go do the job where your heart’s concern is now – help the Palestinians who love our Lord
Em, you might note that the main character in the NBC News article is a Palestinian Lutheran pastor.
Christians of non rapture / non dispensational theologies do not distinguished between Arab and Jew. In this case we distinguish between believing brothers/ sisters and unbelievers. Fellow Christians should receive the Church’s full support.
Joel, thanks for the link. The beginnings for this Lutheran church come out of the same root as the LCMS. The Prussians forcing combined worship of Lutherans and the Reformed – a totally unacceptable practice for Lutherans. In the case of the what was to become the LCMS broke away, left Saxony and came to America. It looks as if this group eventually did the same.
I’ve heard you both mention that there are varying theologies in the Anglican Church (Reformed, Anglo-Catholic, Lutheran (?) ) Who determines where each particular church falls theologically?
Duane will have greater insight than me by a long shot, but I believe it’s mainly dependent on the way the priest leans.
The wonderful thing about Anglicanism is that the service will still be based on the Book of Common Prayer.
There will not be a demand that any congregant lean the same way…
Yes, it is a strange combination of priest, parish and, in some cases, the diocese. The Diocese of Albany, for instance, had a long Anglo-Catholic tradition while other dioceses are more evangelical, liberal, etc. Some parishes are known as evangelical bastions, while others, like St. Mary the Virgin in NYC are Anglo-Catholic. The priests have different leaning. Usually a parish, endorsed by the diocese, will call a priest that largely matches their profile. Then, of course, you have individual theologians. Look up James Atkinson. He was probably more Lutheran in his theology than MLD! At its best, it is a broad expression of the faith, held within the bounds of the 39 Articles and the Book of Common Prayer. At its worst, it is an excuse to “make up” your own theology while claiming the tradition…
It’s all yours today…
An Open Letter to Trump’s Evangelical Defenders
Food for thought from the National Review
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/donald-trump-evangelical-supporters-stormy-daniels/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
FWIW – why should the evangelicals or anyone else give the concupiscence (one of my grandmother’s favorite terms for the subject) of anyone any exposure? Did Trump claim to walk with God? Aren’t we instructed that it is a shame to speak of such? Eph 5:12
That said, isn’t the lady in question guilty of blackmail? Isn’t asking for money to keep quiet blackmail?
Guess the volcano in Hawaii proves that there is no God of love…. but pray for eveyone’s safety just in case. ?
Proverbs 26:17 (Interfering in someone Else’s argument is as foolish as yanking a dog’s ears.) Some lessons there in how we treat Trump. I believe Trump over Stormy but really the big looser here is the drive-by media that won’t let this go. Their hatred towards Trump is ending up discrediting themselves over and over again.
Hi Steve,
I’ve made it known here that I am not a Trump fan or voter…but I will say this…I’m more and more convinced that I need to pray for him instead of run roughshod over him online…besides we as believers are commanded to pray for those in power. I also echo your comment about the media and their almost frothing at the mouth hatred or our President…for example CNN has almost NEVER posted a positive story about Trump, but indeed has dug in with this porn star story…I think the media in general has abandoned news reporting and has become pure opinion pieces and social commentary.
Peace.
Hi Dan from Georgia,
Good words and I echo you on the need to pray for Trump.
Thanks Steve! I know Trump claims to be a believer, and/or others claim he is one. All the more reason to pray for him. Honestly just a while ago is the first time I prayed for Trump. Ive also decided I’m not going to dump on him anymore on blogs…here or elsewhere. There enough garbage out there on the web and elsewhere.
Bob1
Enjoyed the article immensely….
Dr. Duane,
I’m glad. I thought it was pretty interesting that it ran in the magazine William F.
Buckley founded. There are a fair number of “antiTrump” conservatives.
Speaking of Buckley, I still remember “Firing Line,” where he would square off
against one-or-another liberal type. Loved the debating! They’d actually talk
about issues and policy…it was spirited but I don’t remember it ever being
mean.
# bob1
Here’s the funny thing, my wife interviewed Bill Buckley for her college newspaper… she really liked him!
Very cool!
My fave Firing Lines are when he interviewed Malcolm Muggeridge. It
was fascinating.
For years I have listened to the claim that the amil position is anti semetic and how we replace Israel with the church.
The linked article shows how the rapture / dispensationalist position is an anti Christian position and how it has played out in the Middle East – promoting a kind of ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians.
This is not some misunderstanding of Rapture theology / Pre mil Dispensationalism — this is it carried out in action.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/holy-land-christians-feel-abandoned-u-s-evangelicals-n867371
FWIW here, … again
MLD, the Church does replace Israel for a time…. Whatever the plan of God is, for now, He is working an interesting mystery of grace building a special category of Believers out of the not so wise, not so noble and maybe, not so smart souls – humble born again ones to spread His redemption message…
I don’t know if He’ll terminate this dispensation of grace mil or amil, but the millennial reign of Christ makes sense to me (as does a pre-wrath exit of the Church)… It fits with the thoroughness that seems to be God’s way. .. So?
So, I’ll trust the teachers who espouse that interpretation of Old and New Testament prophesy…. if we had a.betting pool on it, i think my side would clean up… but then all that money would be useless, eh? ?
I’ll be happy either way, but as some say, “come soon, Lord Jesus,” …. come soon
Thanks for the link MLD. Leave it to evangelicals to completely miss the point of Christianity. This is my sanitized response.
Em, you probably did not read the article or you would not be boasting of your position. I am pleased that you do own the position of ‘different’ believers – that the church us a different believer. A bit of a heresy but definitely in line with the dispute position.
One correction as you say you don’t know if God will end things amil or pre.
Amil is not an end times position – it is descriptive of the Church age between the 2 advents.
The end i am referring to is the climactic conclusion of this present condemned earth – before the new heavens and earth…. I believe i am correct that amil view of that event is as i stated… I was not attempting to define your view of God’s history with man
MLD
I remember back in the days of CC involvement the very pro-Israel, pro-Zionist stance that everyone was expected to accept. When I went to Israel, I was still in that way of thinking, mainly owing to “end times” teaching. Then I had to emotionally square that thinking with my Christian Palestinian guides showing such reverence for the holy sites and always referring to “Our Lord”. It changed my perception. One of the shameful results of the evangelical position in this matter, in my opinion, has been our abandonment of the many Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land who are diminishing year by year…
And, no, i didn’t read the article as i knew you wouldn’t have posted the link, if it was honest and cogent in its representation…. I don’t take time for such, but i wil go read it now… if i think i need to post another pontification correcting this comment after doing so i will ?
em, in the amil scheme of things, the only event left is the return of Jesus to judge.
See the sheep and goats story Matt 25:31-46 for the complete details.:-)
But the point of the article is that Jews in Israel are more important than the church in Israel – that is damning.
Duane – you are correct.
Re. MLD’s link…
Christian evangelicals are causing harm to Palestinian Christians? There are so many nuances to this dynamic, that a comment here would serve no purpose. The Church is caught up in the flow of history again….
#18 – hmmm…. rogue christians in the United States are responsible for the tribulations of christians living in the holy land…. that is indeed damning…
What about all the “correct” christians, who absolve themselves by finger pointing and a prayer or two? No matter, i understand the Pope is now working things out with the Saudis, so we will yet see world peace – take heart and wait patiently…
Unbelieving Jews, as i understand it, have quite a trial yet to hit their land (yes, i believe it is their land). It is God, Himself, who is in charge of justice, “alls well that ends well”
#16 Duane, I agree regarding the Palestinian Christian Christians. Even today among the CC crowd, one is expected to love all things Israel. There seems to be more of a commitment to the Jews than to the fellow Christian Palestinians. When I have gone into the West Bank and have spoken with Palestinian Christians, I have come to understand their plight. The people with whom I have spoken are largely victims of the politics of the Middle East and are confined to the West Bank. It is sad and I feel for them.
Christians often use the OT verse regarding Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you . . .” But there has never been a mandate to the church to be supportive of Israel (nor to be against Israel, for that matter). When you put a human face and voice to an individual, he or she becomes more than a “Palestinian” or an “enemy of the Jews”. So many of them are OUR brothers and sisters in Christ. That necessitates the divorcing of Middle East politics from my faith in Christ.
Divorcing faith from the world’s politics makes all the sense
One thing that we can hold onto is that our God is in charge of history, the world leaders are there by His choice, no matter the circumstances or our iinterpretations of what is prophesied….
Now i think i’ll watch some of the most beautiful of God’s creatures run the hearts out for some of God’s most .?… erring ? The ones in His image at one time at least….
#22 David
Truth… pure and simple…
em, the point of the article is not political – it is not an Arab / Israeli thing. The complaint from the Palestinian churches is that the American evangelical churches do not and will not help the Arab churches. My comment will be that 100% of the effort and money into the Middle East goes to unbelieving pagan Israel to build up and fulfill the premillennial dispensational game plan.
Today if a call went out American evangelicals to either rebuild the Temple and begin the sacrificial system over – or provide money to build 20 new Palestinian churches in Israel, I know where the money would go.
MLD, i think the Israeli government was very canny in recognizing the fact that the evangelical belief was that their return to the land was fulfillment of prophesy. That made us very useful fools. I say “fools” because they are a very secular group not now recognizing Giod, let alone our religion. Their survival was dependent on U.S. support and the evangelicals have had some influence since Eisenhower. Their nation, on the other hand has served the U.S. also.
If the devout Jew in that country had his way we wouldn’t even be allowed in as tourists. But as i see it, God isn’t finished with them yet and if they knew what that meant, they’d be scared to death.
The Jew over there who now accepts Jesus as Messiah is just the same as you or me in God’s eyes, i think we’d agree…. not dispensation dependent conclusion.
There are, i believe, more in your camp, the traditional and the orthidox, so why isn’t the rest of the Christian community doing what the evangelical is now accused of not doing for the persecuted Palestinian Christian? Even if the. evangelical is wrong, why is it their responsibility to do what your camp can do?
One other thing that i’m pondering… we are talking about the unfolding of world history here (didn’t say end times)and i believe that history unfolds exactly as God intends, so right or wrong, the evangelical is playing the role God intended from the beginning of time…
The Israeli Palestinian conflict has many facets, many exploiters and far too many bad guys… just like the rest of the world… don’t take the easy out and blame the dispensational evangelical …. there’s always an outside chance that the nutty Jew loving Christian is right where God placed him now… My advice to the rest of us is to just mutter a quiet “tsk, tsk” and go do the job where your heart’s concern is now – help the Palestinians who love our Lord
Em, you might note that the main character in the NBC News article is a Palestinian Lutheran pastor.
Christians of non rapture / non dispensational theologies do not distinguished between Arab and Jew. In this case we distinguish between believing brothers/ sisters and unbelievers. Fellow Christians should receive the Church’s full support.
http://www.elcjhl.org/welcome/a-brief-history/
Interesting history of the church in the NBC article.
Joel, thanks for the link. The beginnings for this Lutheran church come out of the same root as the LCMS. The Prussians forcing combined worship of Lutherans and the Reformed – a totally unacceptable practice for Lutherans. In the case of the what was to become the LCMS broke away, left Saxony and came to America. It looks as if this group eventually did the same.
Michael/Duane,
I’ve heard you both mention that there are varying theologies in the Anglican Church (Reformed, Anglo-Catholic, Lutheran (?) ) Who determines where each particular church falls theologically?
JoelG,
Duane will have greater insight than me by a long shot, but I believe it’s mainly dependent on the way the priest leans.
The wonderful thing about Anglicanism is that the service will still be based on the Book of Common Prayer.
There will not be a demand that any congregant lean the same way…
#30 JoelG
Yes, it is a strange combination of priest, parish and, in some cases, the diocese. The Diocese of Albany, for instance, had a long Anglo-Catholic tradition while other dioceses are more evangelical, liberal, etc. Some parishes are known as evangelical bastions, while others, like St. Mary the Virgin in NYC are Anglo-Catholic. The priests have different leaning. Usually a parish, endorsed by the diocese, will call a priest that largely matches their profile. Then, of course, you have individual theologians. Look up James Atkinson. He was probably more Lutheran in his theology than MLD! At its best, it is a broad expression of the faith, held within the bounds of the 39 Articles and the Book of Common Prayer. At its worst, it is an excuse to “make up” your own theology while claiming the tradition…
Thanks guys. Very helpful.