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195 Responses

  1. Pineapple Head says:

    I’m rereading Tozer’s THE PURSUIT OF GOD. I read it years ago as a young follower of Jesus, and I’m afraid it didn’t make much of a dent. But now as a pastor of several decades, it’s message is super impacting.

  2. Em says:

    Hmmm…. May pull it off the shelf and reread it too, Pastor Pineapple

  3. Xenia says:

    The purpose of that article, Jean, is to make conservative people look stupid. I do not believe people are drinking bleach.

    I used to gobble up these articles because it fits in with what I wanted to believe about Trump supporters. I am no longer so easily fooled.

  4. Jean says:

    Forbes is a conservative outlet. At least by the standards of traditional conservatism. I don’t know what passes for it today.

    Are we canceling public health warnings, as we cancel the coronavirus?

  5. Jim says:

    Despite the fact that health authorities and cleaning-product manufacturers warn people that disinfectants shouldn’t be ingested, inhaled or injected, many Americans are still drinking bleach. Some are doing it because they believe disinfectants can treat Coronavirus.

    “many Americans are still drinking bleach” is linked to another article, which states, “The findings come from an online survey of 502 adults conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in May.” “…and 4% had drunk or gargled diluted bleach solutions, soapy water, or other disinfectants.”

    So, the CDC posts an online survey, and 20 people respond saying that they had drunk or gargled diluted bleach solutions, soapy water, or other disinfectants. That’s the “many Americans” in the original article.

    Very scientific.

    Xenia is correct, and Jean delivers once again.

  6. Duane Arnold says:


    BTW, JV Chamary, PhD,who wrote the article for Forbes is an award winning science writer having written for, among others, Scientific American. You note, he had a link to a primary source for each assertion. This may be owing to him having written at least ten peer reviewed articles for reputable science journals.

  7. Michael says:

    I don’t have time to source the info…but a church in Florida was hawking some sort of bleach cure and I know for a fact our local ER has dealt with this at least once. I don’t think this has anything to do with conservatives…it has to do with people taking advantage of others in a crisis.

  8. Jean says:

    Thanks Duane.

  9. Jean says:

    I think what happens, and I wasn’t the one who brought up conservative vs. liberal, but what has been happening over the past several months, is the President here’s something from a private source outside the CDC/FDA, or on cable news from a talk show person or this/her guest, and they have a theory or are promoting a cure, such as an unproven drug or cleansing agent or light or what have you, and the President runs with it. And many of his loyal base trust him more than a career health professional. Whether it’s masks, drugs, bleach, the transmissibility of the virus among youth, the mortality rate of an age group, the duration of the pandemic, etc.

    That’s where many people are at. But the words of Jesus work in the secular realm as well: The blind leading the blind will both fall into the pit.

  10. Jean says:

    I believe that words have consequences and loose words are dangerous. Here is my concern regarding a vaccine:

    In a 3-6 months, there is cautious optimism that a vaccine will be available that is safe and effective. However, who will be willing to take it? There previously has been a segment of the population that is anti-vaccine. Then there are those who would take a vaccine in normal circumstances but will doubt the the COVID vaccine because of the fear that approval was rushed for political reasons. Then there are those who won’t take it because they believe COVID isn’t a threat to them.

    So who will take it? I am resolved to take a COVID vaccine if and when Dr. Fauci says one is safe and effective for my age, gender and health profile. If he doesn’t endorse it, then I’m not taking it period.

  11. Jim says:

    Except for the chron link, the articles made a connection to Trump. I’m sure there are 100’s of other clickbait articles one could find.

    Jean, there are some posters here who can’t get away with pleading no political agenda.

  12. Michael says:

    I will get the vaccine in a heartbeat if Fauci says it’s safe…otherwise…nope…

  13. Em says:

    Bleach? Yikes! ! !
    What’s. wrong with good old Listerine – gargled?
    BTE vitamin D3 IS worth ingesting, but needs a certaim amount of fat to be absorbed……..

  14. Jean says:


    I know you feel antagonistic towards me. Maybe, and I hope, that will pass someday.

    But, why do you suppose that articles on bleach ingestion mention Trump so often? Do you think the authors made the association out of malice, or is it possible that Trump himself made the association?

    You know, there are readily available videos of the the relevant Coronavirus press conference where Trump muses about ingesting disinfectants. It’s quite extraordinary IMO. But, anyone can view the video and discern for themselves if Trump was being sincere or sarcastic. (I can’t for the life of me imagine why someone would make that subject something to be sarcastic about, but I leave it to each viewer’s discernment.)

  15. Jim says:


    Trump is at best, a dolt. He has a number of other really bad character flaws. He is not a good man. No one here would disagree. The political infestation of a blog I’ve loved for 14 years has gotten under my skin. Constant echo chamber bleating. I’m in a little season of “we get it, could you knock it now?” If Michael tells me to drop it, I will.

    I don’t feel antagonistic towards you. I’m sick of your (and others) constant Trump yammering, which is made worse by denying your agenda.

  16. CM says:

    Then there was the ionization cleaning those frauds pushed for that Arizona church when Trump visited. The principle behind it makes senses but NOT the way they tried to implement it. It has been used in small confined environments like airline cabins and in specially constructed buildings like semiconductor clean rooms. Needless to say it did not work out too well in Arizona.

  17. Em says:

    Trump is a stereotypical business entrepreneur – they often are not “nice” people, but are manageable, if one is careful. 😉

    Jesus knew how … some even found redemption… I think we otta pray – ya never know….
    Now don’t get me started on kamala… 😕. God knows, but i don’t
    Have a God blest Lord’s Day all

  18. Mike E. says:

    Michael: “I will get the vaccine in a heartbeat if Fauci says it’s safe…otherwise…nope…”
    LOL!! 😀 So funny because a couple of weeks ago I told my son that no way would my kids be going back to school until Fauci says it’s ok.

  19. Jim says:

    I have a question. My wife received a text that was clearly a meme, stating that the CDC “slipped” the following data onto their website. My first response was “no way”, until I went to the CDC site.

    What do you guys think? Was this something that was known? Is it meaningful?

    “Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups”

    The text is just above table 3.

  20. Michael says:

    This is old news…Oregon has been categorizing deaths this way from day one.

  21. Jim says:

    So, it’s not significant that 6% of covid deaths are from covid only? This is new to me, and it sort of rocked my world. Sorry, I get my news from my wife’s phone in my face.

  22. Michael says:


    I don’t think it’s significant…it’s deadly in combination with pre existing conditions, just like the flu.

  23. Jean says:

    And the ICUs are occupied by phantoms.

  24. Jim says:


    Has the 6% been discussed here before? Is it true that this is a new addition to the CDC site?

  25. Michael says:


    To be honest, I’m surprised that so many think this is new info.
    Every day I get an email that breaks down the number of new cases by county, deaths by county, deaths by age, and whether the person died with co-morbidities.
    I thought it was common knowledge that most of the deaths were of people over 60 with underlying conditions.
    To be blunt, I don’t pay much attention to the CDC, but at least here on the Left Coast this info has been available for months.

  26. Jim says:

    Your common knowledge statement is correct. Most people know about most of the deaths. But 94%? I honestly don’t think people know this.

  27. Michael says:


    As my friend Warren points out, this isn’t new info…

  28. Jim says:

    That’s helpful, with the way back link. The article you first linked to contained a live link.


  29. CM says:


    I think most states have that information, but it may not necessarily be in easy to use graphs and tables.

  30. CM says:

    Of course should John MacArthur get COVID-19 and die like Herman Cain, I will say that it was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world, as is his Darwin Award nomination.

  31. Jean says:

    If 100% of the deaths from Covid-19 were in people with co-morbidities and 0% of the deaths were caused solely by Covid-19, would the hospitals be any less filled? Would the funeral homes in states and localities experiencing an epidemic be any less full? Would all the same people, who public health officials have been warning from the beginning as being particularly vulnerable, such as folks in nursing homes, the elderly, etc. be at any less risk? Would it still be a pandemic?

    Moreover, should a healthy person only be concerned about mortality and not about getting really sick, but recovering, with long term and/or permanent health effects?

    From the beginning Fauci and Birx and others have said that everyone should do their part, because even if you individually are not in a demographic that is highly vulnerable to the consequences of Covid-19 (i.e., you’re in great health, young and have no co-morbidities), you can still bring it home or transfer it to someone who is vulnerable. We all have a part in breaking or mitigating the chain of transmission for the sake of our neighbors.

  32. CM says:


    Not apparently to so-called Christian leaders and pastors (and their mindless followers). If anything, they are part of the problem. That is why I will not shed a tear if they die of terminal stupidity.

    Darwin wins in the end.

  33. Jean says:

    It makes me sad, CM, because at least one of those mindless followers is a friend, who I thought was intellegent, but is spreading this garbage on his social media.

  34. CM says:

    Speaking of MacArthur, it seems that LA county is exercising its 30 day notice to terminate a parking lease agreement with Grace Community Church:

    The beauty of contract law (and this particular lease) is that as long as the 30 days notice is given, you do not need a reason to terminate the agreement. Suffice to say, it will be a bit more difficult for attendees to JMac’s cult to park. Of course, should people attempt to park there after the agreement is ended, then well that is what towtrucks and impound are for.

  35. CM says:

    It will be interesting to see how bad they get smacked down when they see how they think their 1A rights supersedes someone else’s property rights.

  36. CM says:


    I have learned not to have any remorse or empathy for cult followers, either they come out of it or they drink the Kool-Aid and die. Compassion, empathy, logic, love, etc. does not resonate at all for them at all, so I don’t have any of that for them. It is like trying to reason with a zombie. Good luck with that.

  37. Michael says:

    We should be mourning, not mocking…none of us or our loved ones will escape this unscathed.

  38. CM says:

    Much like a zombie apocalypse. If one sees “The Walking Dead” many of the characters’ loved ones were zombies. Sure, they mourned, but that didn’t stop them from what needed to be done.

  39. Michael says:

    “Compassion, empathy, logic, love, etc. does not resonate at all for them at all, so I don’t have any of that for them.”

    My calling demands otherwise…

  40. Jim.
    About those lucky 6 percenters. They got the virus. They died.
    About the unlucky 94 percenters. They got the virus. They died.
    I’m sure the 94 wish they enjoyed better health prior to 2020. But it does matter now. They died.
    These are crazy times and it feels like whatever control we had over our lives is gone, other putting on your mask.
    When I get the virus, I’m going to be a 94 percenter. That’s if I can survive long enough to get the virus. In the meantime, it’s really nice to keep the Faith, and keep getting faith related news on the PP.

    So dont get frustrated. Remember, even the angels long to look into these things. Sorta makes them sound like a bunch of peepers.

  41. Xenia says:

    A few things:

    + I have heard that some churches are technically closed, with a “closed” sign on the front door, but the side doors are unlocked. I think this is wiser than blaring your defiance and attracting the attention of the authorities.

    + After months of waffling, my husband and I have decided to vote for Trump. We don’t think he’s a very good person, but he can only last another 4 years. If the Dems win, it’s good-bye America and hello East Germany. The Dems have a sulfuric plan in mind for all of us. We aren’t voting “for” Trump as much as voting against the agenda of the Dems.

    + Still, I think Trump’s foolish speech and Twitter activity has done much to wind up the rioters. He just says whatever thought pops into his head and maybe doesn’t even believe it himself. Then his pride makes him defend his stupid statements. I used to think he was a Hitler in the making but now I think he’s too… well, dumb…. to be a Hitler. But for true Nazi-like behavior it is hard to beat a BLM mob forcing restaurant diners to give the BLM salute.

    + I always wondered how the conservatives in this country could fall for a guy like Trump. Was there something in the water? Was there subliminal messages being sent through the TV? But now I wonder how the liberals can fall for BLM and antifa and the transgender idiocy and all the rest. Both sides have demonstrated a lack of discernment, to put it mildly. So there’s me and my husband in the middle, feeling smug that we are above the fray. But the left has gone so far in its extremist view and actions that we cannot sit airily in the middle anymore, saying “The lesser of 2 evils is still an evil.” We had to come down off our high horse and take a stand. So we are voting for Trump, something I thought I’d NEVER say but there you have it.

  42. CM says:

    It is because the “so-called conservatives” that fell for Trump are NOT. They would not know what the principles of conservatism are nor Constitutionalism are even if it bit them on the a**.

    And yes voting for Trump (or Biden) is still voting for evil. Maybe if people woke up and realized they don’t have to choose between a Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich we would not be stuck with the 2 a*shats we have now. Take the red pill people.

  43. Em says:

    I don’t think Trump is stupid, but i do believe he, like many, is focused on doing business to the point of being myopic to the larger world he lives in… However, his description of Biden as a Trojan horse is, i fear spot on..
    Perhaps, we of the Church can, like Moses, prevail in our prayers for God’s mercy?

  44. MM says:

    Personally I wish the focus of these “political” discussions was more on the policies and directions of the parties in general than the personalities of the individuals. Yes they are somewhat tied together, but not entirely.

    When I listen to “the squad,” “VP Candidate Harris,” the various Mayors of the cities currently in siege, Sanders, Democratic Governors, and the general Democratic Party direction it makes me realize the USA is truly in a state of change and maybe not a good one at that.

    You all can fill in whatever blanks you desire, but regardless of who wins in November I see a Nation not “rebuilt,” but rather torn down and replaced. Now which Party will do more damage?

    As always vote your conscience and not because of hatred for one person or the other.

  45. Em says:

    Good words, MM
    Conscience, not hatred? Not easy, but right thing to do, God guarding your consciousness

  46. Jim says:


    I’m not frustrated. I’m one of the dummy’s the Dr referred to in Michael’s video, who just wanted to figure something out. I may not agree with everything the Dr said, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, but Michael’s second Throckmorton link (with the wayback link) definitively answered the “CDC snuck the data in” question.

  47. Dan from Georgia says:

    Voting your conscience.

    Bingo! Thanks MM. I was actually thinking about this yesterday. In 2016 I didn’t vote…mainly because I didn’t register in time, but if I had I would have abstained because IN GOOD CONSCIENCE I couldn’t vote for either Clinton or Trump.

    I will most likely vote this year, and I won’t let anyone know Who I voted for.

    You bring up a good point MM. I wish more bloggers and online journalists would encourage their readers to vote their conscience and pray for wisdom, but instead they use emotion, retread narratives, and fear-mongering to get you to vote their way. Basically, they don’t trust you and how God may be leading you to vote.

  48. CM says:

    Dan from GA,

    FWIW, I voted for neither the Giant Douche nor the Turd Sandwich in 2016 and 2020 will be no different.

    330 Million people in the US and we ended up with these 2 a*shats in 2020 (and in 2016)? The fact we have the dregs of humanity running as the 2 biggest choices for POTUS lately must be a sign that the end is near.

  49. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks, CM. I also IN GOOD CONSCIENCE vote for “the lesser of two evils”.

  50. Dan from Georgia says:

    Grrr….meant “couldn’t vote…”

  51. Jim. I watched a portion of the video link. Assuming the cited facts are correct, (again assuming) the CDC combed through 161,000 death certificates. We only reached that milestone in the last few weeks. And then a team, or software, catatorigized them all. This would essentially be recent data.

    Something is only unprecedented until it happens for the first time. Colon Polyps or Uterine Cysts have never been political. Covid is. We haven’t been used to any forms of idealogy tied directely to a disease or medical condition in our lifetime. It’s actualy central to ithe dentity of many Americans now.
    On top of that, all the agencies are led by political appointees. Covid data can’t help but be presented in an idealogical light.

    If we where invaded by the dread East Mufasa Land Colon Polyp Syndrome, we would having the same arguments if it ever became linked to a presidential campaign.

  52. Jean says:

    My latest thinking:

    (1) While there is no perfect candidate, and no human savior, neither is there any moral equivalence between the two major candidates.

    (2) The violence and lawlessness may be calculated by one campaign to benefit its candidate and undermine the campaign of the other candidate. Moreover, it takes the focus off other voter issues, such as the pandemic; unemployment; and food, housing and healthcare insecurity; and focuses media attention on a very serious national problem of civil unrest.

    It would be an unforgivable sin if a candidate fanned the flames of lawlessness and violence for the purpose of furthering his candidacy. It would be offering up the lives of the victims of violence as a sacrifice in the service of a political campaign.

    I hope Christians and voters will use discernment in this matter. If you find that a candidate is furthering national division and civil unrest, please do not reward that candidate with your vote.

  53. CM says:

    Nathan and others,

    Here is the dirty little secret of this COVID-19 outbreak. All the eff ups by Trump early on could have been avoided. Google the term “Crimson Contagion”. For those of who you are still deluded into thinking that it was not Trumps’ responsibility and it is not “his fault, here a brief article on it:

    The simulation was done in the summer of 2019. This simulation entailed an unknown respiratory virus outbreak in China. The funding indicated that there were systemic issues in our pandemic response and had a recommended numerous improvements. Then a scant 3 months later, a real pandemic unfolds in real time. And what did Trump and his administration (who were involved in this simulation) do for a good 2 or more months? That’s right nothing other than downplay things.

    At at minimum, this is gross incompetence and is very likely deliberate malfeasance. But continuing to fight the Lost Cause of the Culture Wars makes this OK. BTW, the social conservatives’ success and winning those are on a par with how the CSA did in the Civil War.

  54. Em says:

    Presuming on Open Blog. …
    Monday afternoons i listen to a Lutheran pastor, Tom Brock (yes, a confessed, non practicing homosexual man).
    Today he asked a question that is, in my mind, worth sharing…
    As the nations go down the wrong path, will the Church be held accountable for what we’ve done to resist? Do we have a role to play? To stick our necks out in words and deeds?
    I think the Phoenix Preacher folk are wrestling with this question, are we not?
    He pretty much echoed Michael’s take or what i think Michael thinks… What fruit do we produce – not perfect, but still a testimony to our lives IN Christ… and it involves the absolute holiness of our God as well as His love
    Just thinkin’ on it… just thikin’

  55. Dan from Georgia says:

    Em, I am originally from Minnesota and am have seen Tom Brock on local cable up there at times. I appreciate his teachings and ministry. Do you know if he still hails from Minnesota?

  56. MM says:


    You come across as a really unhappy person looking for a reason to justify hating Trump and or other elected people.

    Your link to the project is nothing new and there was a better one known as “Event 201.” In late 2019. No one paid attention to them, including Fauci and other Democrats. So basically your hatred and blame are misplaced and have a huge room to spread around the block.

    Time to relax, we are stuck in this bad science fiction novel made into a movie scenario. Just ride it out and live each day as Jesus taught.

  57. Jim says:

    CM’s not gonna relax. News flash-orange man bad!!!!!!!

    Please tell me again tomorrow, because I night forget.

  58. Em says:

    Dan from GA. I believe he is still in Minnesota, but no longer pastors a church.. . His homosexual attraction proves, for me, that it is a handicap, not to be celebrated, but to be overcome – not easy, i am sure AND he does label acting out as sin.
    He has a website. if interested
    Not being a Lutheran i can still appreciate good teaching from honest teachers even IF i can’t “amen”every word

  59. CM. Your last paragraph contained a number of references that left me unsure of how you define them.
    Lost cause- CSA- culture war-CivilWar.
    Can you talk sbout this paragraph? Is this a general reference, or are you saying that the Covid can be related to to prior historical events in some indirect fashion?Are you familiar with American Church history, or secret society elements?
    …”At at minimum, this is gross incompetence and is very likely deliberate malfeasance. But continuing to fight the Lost Cause of the Culture Wars makes this OK. BTW, the social conservatives’ success and winning those are on a par with how the CSA did in the Civil War.”

  60. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Em. Shortly before moving out of MN Tom was outed in a most dishonest way..a support group he was attending was infiltrated and confidentiality was broken. He has chosen a difficult path indeed.

  61. Dan from Georgia says: least that is what I am aware of with his outing. And as those who have been or are in support groups/12 Step groups…confidentiality and trust are very highly esteemed and taken seriously.

  62. Michael says:


    Jim has been a dear friend and co-worker with me for many years.
    He is a good and godly man.
    Do not ever insult him here ever again.

  63. Michael says:

    I have strong opinions about this president.
    Very negative opinions.
    My respect for my brethren is greater than my contempt of a politician.
    If you can’t affirm the same…this will not be a pleasant place to dwell.

  64. Em says:

    Stay the course, Michael
    This website is a great place for the Church to think things through
    Thank you and God keep

  65. Michael says:

    Jim is one of the very few people on the planet who know s what it really means to do what I do.
    He took on a whole denomination for the sake of God and His people…and many people were saved from trauma and restored to faith because he did.
    I don’t give a hoot in hell who he votes for…

  66. Michael says:

    My apologies.
    This all seems senseless and dangerous to me.

  67. Jim says:

    Wow, it looks like I missed the fun. Thanks for the kind words Michael, and for defending a friend.

    I’ve obviously been baiting CM for a few days, so I probably deserved whatever was said.

    For the record, I seriously doubt that I’m voting. If i was accused of being a trumpy, CM missed my point. My point was, obviously, “we get it. please shut up now”.

  68. CM says:


    If you bothered to check the information about Event 201, it was sponsored by JHU and the Gates Foundation, (i.e. not a government wargame/simulation like Crimson Contagion) but if you really want do, hop into the ring and let’s dance….

  69. Em says:

    For the John MacArthur dislikers, LA county is taking his parking lot away..
    Me, I’m praying for the church

  70. CM says:

    Dan from GA,

    I don’t trust a church’s confidentiality or the confidence of any church group’s any more than a politician or con man. Sociopaths, psychopaths, and con-men easily manipulate the sheep to bleat out whatever dirt they need. Say the right Christianese or spiritual jargon or better yet, “I am worried about his walk the Lord” and whatever and the gullible Christians easily give up the goods.
    And you wonder why Trump and the cult of QAnon have so many devoted followers in the church?

  71. CM says:


    LA County is exercising its rights under a lease agreement MacArthur’s church has with the county and ending it as per the 30 days notice in the contract. I don’t see a problem here. It is just business. No different than a tenant in an apartment leaving or a landlord having a tenant leave after providing sufficient notice. LA County is not obligated to rent the parking lot to GCC anymore than a mall owner is obligated to rent X store in his mall.

  72. CM says:


    CORRECTION. LA County OWNS the parking lots. GCC just rents them. As the owner, they do whatever the eff they want to to with it. Property rights, that sort of thing. Which means MacArthur’s 1A rights do not extend to mine (or anyone else’s) property.

  73. CM says:


    The Culture War is over and the social conservatives lost. If anything, their attempts to use the levers of political power to achieve their aims only hastened their loss and further ingrained the image in society those who still push the narrative are hopelessly deluded. Continuing efforts by social conservatives to use political methods to effect their aims is a Lost Cause and they continue bought into the myth of why lost. Very much like those who pine for the Confederacy and their Myth of the Lost Cause. Every single stated aim of the social conservatives has been defeated.

    1) Abortion rights are still is the law of the land.
    2) Gay marriage rights are also the law of the land.
    3) You can’t fire people because they are gay or transgender
    4) Weed is becoming legalized in more states every day. Within 5 years, weed will be decriminalized nationwide and at the federal level.

    Yet some deluded social conservatives still want to hitch their wagon to Trump in the vain attempt to bring back the glory days of Phyllis Schlafly and Moral Majority. They sure they won some battles, but lost the war. Just like the Confederacy.

  74. MM says:


    Well aware of who sponsored what. I’ll bet you find it interesting these simulations happened just before the pandemic actually started.

    You really are unhappy and want to hate a lot of stuff.

    Or maybe you just are frustrated and want to fight with others who don’t share your views.

    Okay, you win!

    Each day has its own troubles.

  75. CM says:

    I just expect competence and people to do their effing jobs. Is that too much to ask?

    For Trump and his people, apparently it is.

  76. We’d still be where we are. Too many ‘Muricans are virus and mask deniers. No one from the top could ever enforce that. I see enough of it even in California. On the surface, it may seem political, yet many leaders in the Mexican community here called out their own people on Cinco de Mayo for unsafe gatherings. Not to mention the mass no social distancing protests. Many don’t care. At. All.

  77. CM.
    -Your list 1-4 is not an accurate measure of success or failure. However, they do serve to agitate the Beast. Especially the first three.
    -I think you have miss-understood the momentum and trajectory of Conservatism. If you reversed all the points you made, I would significantly agree with you.
    – The President is now the head of the Evangelical Church. How long this situation will continue God knows. This might be something you need to come to terms with.
    -Conservatives have lost nothing. This is the early phase of the next upswing in conflict. This is a Culture War. Its just that the way it will be conducted is not what we thought anticipated.

    I have a Culture War question.
    Leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE, the city was held by several factions. Is it logical or illogical to set fire to the grain stores? Why would a faction do this?

  78. CM says:

    Isn’t your question is predicated on the assumption that somehow the US is 1st Century AD Israel?

    But to answer your question. It depends. In a military conflict, assets and resources are typically destroyed to prevent capture and use by the enemy. One could argue that drain stores are such an asset. As to when such as an action makes sense in that respect, that is another question.

  79. CM says:

    The New Victor,

    And if that is the case, then Darwin will win out in the end. As Herman Cain found out the hard way.

    Again, I have no sympathy for those who refuse to take precautions regarding COVID due to their own worship of self and “Liberty” that end up getting the virus and dying. Any more than I would have sympathy for drunk college students playing in busy traffic.

  80. CM says:

    The New Victor,

    The actions I mentioned earlier are very much the equivalent of “Hold my Beer….”, which is invariably followed by something stupidly dangerous likely to result in a Darwin Award.

  81. Jean says:

    “This is a Culture War.”

    Culture war gives combatants someone and something to fight against. The rationale is that if one could win the culture war, he/she would experience peace and prosperity on the basis of the prevailing culture.

    Culture war allows one to ignore or be blind to the failings of his/her own cultural ideology, while focusing on the perceived failings of the other culture.

    But I wonder, let’s say one side totally wins the culture war. Then what? Would standards of living go up? Would crime go down? Would drug addiction and alcoholism decrease? Would more people attend church regularly? Would suicide go down? Would children get higher test scores in school? Would our economy become more competitive?

    I don’t see the culture war offering solutions to any of these problems, except the notion that the problems we are facing would be taken care of (or magically go away) if we could just defeat our cultural enemy. In other words, we are in self-denial about our own failings and want a scapegoat. I think there are enough opportunities for repentance in all of our lives to make a difference, without looking to repent our neighbors through culture war.

    Laws on the books – criminal, tax, other – are not the sum and substance of a culture. I would argue that Christians would derive their primary culture from Scripture. I don’t see Scripture urging culture war.

  82. Jim says:

    ” I would argue that Christians would derive their primary culture from Scripture. I don’t see Scripture urging culture war.”

    Well said.

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I find CM’s suggestion that the Church should have no voice in the public square (particularly on his personal chosen list, which I am sure in much longer in his mind) to be quite troubling.
    Somehow the Church has lost this imaginary “culture war” so all biblical standards in society are off the table? Society / culture is not to be guided, “salted” by the church?

    Kamala Harris spoke it more clearly last month when she said that she fully supported religious freedom – as long as it stayed in the person’s head.

  84. CM says:

    Once again MLD is making an assumption (and you should know what that entails). I didn’t say they should not have a voice in the public square. I am saying than using political means and the levers of power to effect a moral change in the culture is doomed to fail (as history as shown). You need to change the hearts and minds of the people FIRST.

    Yet somehow the culture warrior social cons have this narrative that IF ONLY we re-elect so and so, or support so-and-so, or Candidate X will put the “right” judges on the bench. And this why Evangelicals support Trump (and others) to the level they do.

    The narrative then goes on to say that it was the Hollyweird Left, the MSM, dastardly atheist and God-hating liberals, socialists, etc in political power that have foiled things. Kind of like the excuses the people who bought into the false narrative of the Myth of the Lost Cause as to why the South lost.

    When in reality the Culture Warriors lost because they gave up their birthright for a political bowl of porridge.

  85. CM says:


    It gets even better. Look up “Bootleggers and Baptists” in terms of regulatory capture. Suffice it to say that is not the only example. And Culture Warriors have been part of this regulatory capture scheme since the Bootleggers.

  86. CM says:


    Here is the background on Bootleggers and Baptists:

    Bootleggers and Baptists is a concept put forth by regulatory economist Bruce Yandle, derived from the observation that regulations are supported both by groups that want the ostensible purpose of the regulation, and by groups that profit from undermining that purpose.

    For much of the 20th century, Baptists and other evangelical Christians were prominent in political activism for Sunday closing laws restricting the sale of alcohol. Bootleggers sold alcohol illegally, and got more business if legal sales were restricted. Yandle wrote that “Such a coalition makes it easier for politicians to favor both groups. … the Baptists lower the costs of favor-seeking for the bootleggers, because politicians can pose as being motivated purely by the public interest even while they promote the interests of well-funded businesses. … [Baptists] take the moral high ground, while the bootleggers persuade the politicians quietly, behind closed doors.”

    And for a literal example of this:

    Liquor stores in the “wet counties” of Arkansas allied with local religious leaders to oppose statewide legalization of alcohol sales. Where the religious groups were opposed on moral grounds, the liquor stores were concerned over the potential loss of customers if rival stores were permitted to open in the “dry” counties of the state.

  87. MLD. Been a long time. Hope your well.
    Wrong. In areas of religion and ideology, the US/Judea have stunning similarities. It’s why I posited the question. It pertains to the discussion, we are a latter day Judeo-Christian society.

    Right. Burning food supplies is logical. You want general harm to come to your enemy, you don’t want anything that provides him a sense of aid and comfort.

    Unclear. You did not identify the enemy. Yes, there was a sense of disdain for all gentiles, and by extention the Romans outside the city. But the enemy is the family next door, if they are not part of your sectarian identity. They need to be purged from Israel, and this is a higher priority then ultimately national survival. In the course of events, food unexpectedly became a potential weapon. It wasn’t a conspiracy, it’s just how things unfolded. After all, starvation is generally negative.

    I would suggest a counterintuitive understanding of culture wars, then and now. Worthless and hopeless. If something is worthless, it is actually calming because it can be abandoned. Its not a loss because it has no value, it can’t give selfworth. If hopeless, then one can not derive identity, security and salvation from the outcome.

  88. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well I am glad to see that you have reversed yourself in claiming that the imaginary culture war is lost and you now seem to be calling for a change in strategy and tactics to continue the fight.
    I never said anything about passing laws although that is not a bad thing – but I do believe that we can shame folks into compliance, and the folks on the opposite side of this imaginary culture war agree as they have now even outlawed public shame under the label of hate speech.
    I still find your comment above and attitude troubling, but they are yours and in a free society you are entitled to them.

  89. Em says:

    CM @ 8:29 yesterday
    The fact that county owns the lot misses the point…. This was a retribution for MacArthur defying church shut down order
    should be a wake-up to all churches… in some areas we are very low on the Totem and definitely not outside government jurisdiction

  90. directambiguity says:

    Reading some of this reminds me of Clark and Will in the bar scene in Good Will Hunting.

  91. directambiguity says:

    “This was a retribution for MacArthur defying church shut down order”


  92. Xenia says:

    I think the government finds it easier to force churches into compliance than to put a stop to the rioters. They are scared of the protesters/rioters but not scared of the churches.

    You know, I would take this whole Covid/ mask/ closure thing a lot more seriously if it were universally applied but when protests are encouraged and churches are told to shut down or else, I suspect there is something else in play. I didn’t use to think this way but the events of the last few months have been very eye-opening.

  93. Michael says:

    I take the Covid19 crisis very seriously.
    I wear a mask and follow the current guidelines for my county.
    I listen to medical professionals and not politicians.

  94. Michael says:

    This scabulon about “the Church” having a voice in the public square…whose church are we talking about?
    Which voices?
    What is the NT and early church record of how they used their voices?

    All we talk about in my church is Jesus and what He said…I haven’t heard much of that in the public square…

  95. Michael says:

    MacArthur also said that because I’m not voting for Trump, I’m not a believer.
    This is odd, because I’m not voting for Trump because I am a believer.
    I do not bind anyones conscience to do likewise.

  96. Jean says:

    “This skubalon about “the Church” having a voice in the public square…whose church are we talking about?
    Which voices?
    What is the NT and early church record of how they used their voices?”

    My questions and thoughts too.

    It would be a tragic shame if the church presented Christ in the public square as the new and better Moses.

  97. directambiguity says:

    Kind of amazing Kyle Rittenhouse only shot three people attacking him. The one with the Glock who was shot in the arm was a felon, I wonder if he’ll be charged for having a weapon.

  98. Michael says:


    That matter has nothing to do with the faith or this blog.
    Take your obsession elsewhere.

  99. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am the church – my voice in my community – I am sorry that you guys feel muzzled. Perhaps if you had grandchildren you would feel differently and choose not to remain silent..

  100. directambiguity says:

    I use to trust the court system not so much anymore. Nor do I trust what they say about the Corona Virus. I think we should not wear masks.

  101. Michael says:


    I’m not muzzled…I just don’t baptize political figures.
    I don’t have grandchildren and won’t live long enough to see if my godson produces any.
    I do have him and others I have helped raise…and what I teach them is that their lives lived must speak of Jesus, because party politics never will.
    I am not silent…but I speak of the things that mattered to Christ, not the electorate.

  102. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    As long as we have a voice and a vote, my voice and vote will go towards biblical standards. I usually lose as your voices out number mine.

  103. Michael says:


    Then don’t wear one.
    Just don’t expect that the civil authorities charged with safety comply with your orders.

  104. Michael says:


    The idea that any party represents “biblical standards” is an insult to those standards.
    I will vote on local issues and offices, but with the knowledge that I am simply making pragmatic, secular choices.

  105. Michael says:

    I am in favor of ending all mitigation efforts outside of medical facilities and allow the caskets to determine who was wise.
    Purely because I’m tired of the strife…

  106. Jeand says:

    “I am the church”

    LOL! That is exactly where the opponents of Protestantism predicted we would end up. Congratulations.

  107. Jean says:


    Here’s another one. How’s this for salt of the earth:

  108. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – I have not once mentioned favor of one political party over another in this discussion – In the case of the transgender people working with the pre school kids in library readings – I will support any and all people / party / organization working to end this abomination.
    If BLM stepped up, I would stand with them to end the transgender terrorism.
    ** a note – I don’t care about legislation – I am happy just being able to use shame and hope not to get tossed in jail**

    But as you say, your mileage may vary 🙂

  109. Jean says:

    “I am happy just being able to use shame”

    Where in the Bible are Christians taught to shame their pagan neighbor?

  110. Michael says:


    That’s why I vote on local issues and local matters.
    Shame doesn’t work anymore as we have a culture that is shameless.
    The “moral issues” never are solved politically because they are too valuable in raising funds and rancor to actually address.

  111. directambiguity says:

    Where in the Bible are Christians taught to shame their pagan neighbor?

    I think it’s Law and Gospel Theology.

  112. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, you are hanging with those Baptists too much. You shame the pagans of world every time you preach to them the law. At least Lutherans do – and when the shame and guilt take full force, then we give the desired forgiveness. (at least that’s how we do it out in God’s country in the middle of the desert)

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Direct beat me to it 🙂

    Michael – I am not concerned if I don’t get the moral issue resolved – I am concerned that I do not remain silent.

    I had better clock out for a while.

  114. Jean says:

    That’s not how Lutherans do it. You can publicly embarrass yourself all you want, but please don’t besmirch the reputation of the Lutheran Church.

    Lutherans define “church” completely differently than you and Law/Gospel is a preaching paradigm, not a vehicle for public policy advocacy.

    You and directambiguity are separating the law from the gospel into two separate events. In the Lutheran tradition, the law is always a penultimate word, in the service of and together with the ultimate word, which is the Gospel.

    The Lutheran Church does not use the Law as a standalone word to the world. The world doesn’t need that. There are plenty of religions, not to mention natural law, that have the law. Christians and particularly the Church have what the other religions don’t have, the redemptive and saving word of the Gospel.

  115. Dan from Georgia says:

    I really hope this blog isn’t going this direction again.

  116. Michael says:


    I’m not sure how to address this.
    I did a little research the other day and was stunned by what I found.
    The ratings for all live sports are down.
    The ratings for tv shows across the board are down.
    The streaming services are down.
    Book sales are not up.
    The only media growing is political news channels and programs.
    People are obsessed with this crap right now.

    I want no part of it, but my readers want to vent.
    I get mad every day that they’re venting.
    Do I just ban it or try to confine it to one thread?

    I’m open to suggestions…

  117. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, your explanation is quite alien to the discussion. But again I will attribute it to your syncretistic union with your Baptist friends.
    In discussion with a pagan friend you are obviously showing him his alienation from God — to his shame. If not, you have nothing to offer him.
    Gotta run

  118. Michael says:

    All this obsession was driven home to me in a trivial, but profound way.
    I’ve been part of a fantasy football league for a long time…this was going to be our 11th consecutive year.
    The members stay in contact year round through an app and there is always much anticipation and coarse jesting as the season approaches.

    We aren’t playing this year.
    Some are boycotting the NFL over social justice.
    Some are so angry over Covid19 that they don’t want to play.

    All they care about…is politics.
    It’s a sad ending to something that was much fun for me.

  119. Michael.
    I think people need a place to talk and or vent.
    Something is going on. It’s not just an historical event. There is something unseen. Before Covid, I felt something eerie as though a catastrophe was about to happen. Others seem to have their own thoughts, but the fear is real

  120. Michael says:


    If you were to have a private conversation with me, you would quickly know that my personal views are pretty apocalyptic right now.
    Part of why I feel such dread is the inability of people to speak to each other desiring positive outcomes for everyone.
    I don’t want to be party to the death march.
    I hear what you’re saying, though.

  121. CM says:

    Xenia and all you anti-maskers completely miss the point in all this (and the science behind it):

    1) The protests are OUTSIDE.

    2) Indoor events like church services, sports gatherings, concerts, etc. are INSIDE.

    Unless you can find ONE specific case of an INDOOR venue in CA getting a pass on the mask and COVID restrictions where MacArthur did not, then you are all completely wrong. Oh and if you try and show pictures of indoor stuff from other states, that DOES NOT count. Since this applies to CA, that federalism thing in the Constitution you should read up on applies. You are comparing apples to oranges.

    Read up on the Journal of Aerosols technical papers on how COVID droplets and aerosols disperse outside vs inside. Read up on your computational fluid dynamics, fluid mechanics mathematical modelling of how masks affect the dispersion of material expelled from the mouth and nose.

    Isaac Asimov is completely right (including in here as well):

    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

  122. Xenia says:

    Is it about politics? I politely, after an explanation, bowed out of my Zoom group because they were supporters of BLM. Without taking politics into account and just looking around at their web page and videos of the riots I decided I could not morally support these things and didn’t want to spend time with people who do. I am against rioting, transgenderism, the homosexual agenda, perversion, abortion, most forms of feminism and all the rest. <– These things may be supported by political parties but it's the issues themselves I cannot go along with. I do not feel like I am a political person at all, I feel like I am a person who hates many of the things the Dems happen to support. So if I decline to spend time with people who support "queer networking" and "dismantling the nuclear family," this isn't politics, folks. It's trying to stand up for whats right, no matter what political party is promoting it. I have grandchildren, too, and I want to preserve some aspects of decency in this country for them.

  123. Xenia says:


    I am not an anti-masker. I wear one every time I leave the house and I do not grumble about it, either.

  124. Xenia says:

    Isaac Asimov is completely right<<<

    Isaac Asimov was an atheist whose god was science.

  125. Michael says:

    ” It’s trying to stand up for whats right, no matter what political party is promoting it. I have grandchildren, too, and I want to preserve some aspects of decency in this country for them.”

    The problem I have is that each side has selective morality.

    I can speak to issues, not to parties…the ones against abortion are for the evil on the border…I’m against both…

  126. Michael says:


    CA was banning going to parks and the beach while allowing riots.

    This whole pandemic has been politicized by both sides and the cognitive dissonance has ruined any hope of mitigation and will kill many the next time a pandemic comes around…

  127. Dan from Georgia says:

    Not sure what to say either Michael. I don’t think a ban is warranted, and I hope that people can police themselves, but maybe I am an idealist. I need to police myself first.

    I was more aiming at the resurrection (pun intended) of the lutheran/baptist thing coming up again.

  128. Michael says:


    I can nip that in the bud… 🙂

  129. Xenia Moos says:

    People will most certainly not police themselves! A month ago there was posted a photo of tourists crammed cheek to jowl on Monterey’s Fisherman’s Wharf.

  130. CM says:

    BTW, if the store policy says masks are required and if you refuse to wear a mask inside the store, then expect to be asked to leave. And if you don’t, expect store security/local PD to escort your a*s out of the store. And if you resist, expect to be arrested and permanently trespassed from the store. Oh and expect be the latest Karen that has gone viral on the internet. And guess what, you will deserve every bit of it, because you are a dumb*ss.

  131. Michael says:


    I’m asking politely…mix some grace into your comments.

  132. Xenia says:

    CM, you ready to take back calling me an anti-masker?

  133. CM says:


    That was clearly an overreach and wrong on their part. But I am talking about inside vs. outside in the current controversy. Again, show me an inside venue (like another church, mosque, night club, sports arena, etc.) in CA getting a pass while MacArthur did not and we can discuss further.

  134. Dan from Georgia says:

    Much appreciated Michael.

    Understood Xenia. Georgia has been on the front page of way too much the last few months…maskless students crowding hallways, college parties, 4K cases per day (thankfully that number has gone down significantly). I need to police myself before trying to confront others.

  135. CM says:

    Hello Xenia,

    I stand corrected and for that I apologize. I read something into your comment that was not there.

  136. Xenia says:

    CM, thank you, apology accepted!

    I can see how you could have misinterpreted what I wrote. Mea culpa.

    All the best,

  137. Michael says:

    As we speak, the pandemic is roaring through our county.
    After a season of compliance, some stores are not enforcing or even acknowledging mask rules and we’re close to outright rebellion…rebellion fostered by the “church” and one political party.

    It has caused me to further limit leaving the house, lest I lose my witness…

  138. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So going back to Michael’s concerns about Covid and the fantasy football – perhaps we can discuss how everyone is making it through this time? Is everyone doing well?

    We still go shopping and to church – family comes to visit and we don’t get scared of each other. I am planning to bring my 93 year old mom down here the first week of October for a visit. My wife’s 96 yr old mom has been here a couple of times during the Covid.

    My son and 16 yr old grandson came down this weekend to help me work on the boat (my son was quite willing as I lured him down with a 100 round magazine for his AR 15 that he can’t get in CA.)

    We do stay away from mouth breathing strangers. We are lucky – my wife and I have been married over 50 yrs and we worked together, in the same room for 21 yrs before we retired – so we know how to endure each other quite well 🙂

    How is everyone else holding up?

  139. Xenia says:

    To be clear, which I am not always, I believe that we should wear masks and maintain the six foot social distancing. I think churches should be open, with restrictions in place. I think the rules should apply to everybody, be they inside or outside, even though I do realize the chances of catching the bug are greater for those inside. I am against rioting in all its forms.

    It’s as consistent as I can get, folks.

  140. Michael says:


    I completely affirm your statement!

  141. Dan from Georgia says:


    Here in GA wife and I don’t go out as much. No kids in house so no worries there.

    As I stated, GA daily reported infections are decreasing, which is a glimmer of hope for a state that has been in the news for not-so-good reasons WAY too much the last few months.

    Mostly we go to fast-food. Wife and I were going to eat indoors at Olive Garden yesterday. I changed my mind and went across the street to Taco Mac for outdoor dining.

    Been working from home exclusively since late March.

    Catching up on some music purchased but never listened to.

    Exercising outdoors and at home now instead of gym.

    Starting to pursue teaching myself Python and MATLAB programming.

    Slow process of not letting daily news get to me.

  142. Jean says:

    “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.”

    Jesus didn’t say, “speak with salty language,” but “You are salt.” That means not just what one says, but what one does too. A Christian’s speech and actions, the entirety of how they live in their home, what kind of employee or employer they are, how they conduct themselves at the store or at the gas station, what their spiritual piety is, all of it is salt.

    But salt can lose its taste. What does that look like? If the salt is the salt of the earth, then it is the earth which will not be able to taste the salt any longer should it lose its taste.

    In America, there are so many churches and traditions jockeying to be salt that what is there that the earth may taste or call salt? Is it the loudest speaker? The one with the most powerful political connections? The one greatest in number? But beneath all of the external symbols of salt are the Jesus and His word. But the earth knows nothing of them, because the fake salt takes misleads the earth.

    The warning to the fake salt also applies: it will be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet. Christ will not allow fake salt to endure forever, even if by appearances it holds the keys to the kingdom of God.

  143. Michael says:

    I’m not doing so well.,, but I soldier on.
    I get so many emails from people suffering from anxiety and stress that I get anxiety and stress.
    Two of the family are nurses…and they’re about to snap.
    Trey is working and worried about how long they can stay open.
    I’m also home schooling him and the online tech is overwhelmed by the numbers of students.
    My mom has early dementia and gets alternately angry that she can’t drive and fearful of the garbage her friends send her online.
    My doctors are so afraid of Covid19 that my blood pressure hasn’t been checked in 6 months.
    They tell me my life span will be measured in hours if I get it.
    I also pastor a church and run a blog…

  144. Xenia says:

    I know 5 people, 3 being cousins and one a neighbor and the other a friend, have come down with the virus. I can’t speak about the cousins, but the other 2 were careful mask-wearers. So we just gotta do the best we can, try not to be too rebellious or resentful in our hearts, vote for whoever causes the least amount of stomach pain, and trust God.

    And mostly, avoid cowardice. The decisions we make may take some moral courage.

  145. Michael says:

    I went to treat myself to Five Guys yesterday…closed due to a Covid 19 outbreak in the store.

  146. Michael my inner thoughts are deffinitely apocalyptical as well. And those I keep mostly out of sight. I think this is an endurance situation. Something to be seen through to the end. But by end, I don’t mean the end of this age. I suspect there are many years left, and the political structure of the World today, is different then that of tomorrow.

  147. Michael says:


    I agree…

  148. Michael says:


    It sounds like you’re doing well at creating a new normal…that’s to be commended…

  149. CM says:


    Five Guys is good. But there must be a local mom and pop place that does good burgers where you are at right?

  150. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael et. al…

    This is the hard part of my life right now:

    Mental health: My anxiety levels and bouts of depression (and hence associated escape naps) have decreased some since April and May. Not sure if that is due to the positive trend in GA, less news intake, or getting accustomed to the world we are in today. But some days are still hard. I avoid twitter (save a few favorite musicians) and Facebook so as to maintain some sanity.

    Work: unsure of employment later this year. I work in an industry that has been gutted by the pandemic.

    Home life: I am easier to live with the less news/social media I consume.

    Sports: the MN Twins are in third place and aren’t hitting the ball like last year.

    Lastly: got my hybrid bike refreshed and have been riding it 2-3 times per week.

  151. CM says:

    Dan from GA,

    Olive Garden is meh. Tacomac has some good stuff and if you like the occasional beer they do have a pretty good selection. If I was in your shoes, I would have definitely gone with the Tacomac.

  152. Michael says:


    You’re the first person I know that spoke of “escape naps”…now I understand what I’ve been doing.
    Thank you!

  153. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Micheal! Probably the only way to create a new normal is to be bombarded with undesirable things/events.

  154. Dan from Georgia says:


    We were all dressed up for Olive Garden, then I got nervous about being indoors. So Taco Mac was very lucrative and convenient, and I love their boneless wings!

  155. Michael says:


    Our local restaurants have been decimated by the restrictions…my favorite place is out of business after over fifty years…

  156. CM says:


    There is a local chain in GA called Mazzy’s. Ever been there? It’s a sports bar in the North Metro Atlanta area, but they have good food.

    Their wings are huge and very good. I would usually get the Lemon-Pepper.

  157. Dan from Georgia says:

    CM… I’ll note Mazzy’s. Actually never heard of the place since we are pretty much anchored south of ATL. Thanks for the suggestion.

  158. CM says:


    That sucks. My city’s government fortunately was ahead of the curve and bought a bunch of those water filled Jersey barriers fairly early in the pandemic. Local eateries could sign up and use them to convert part of their parking lots to new and/or additional outdoor seating space. One of local places converted all its on street parking to an outdoor eating area and along with their sidewalk tables, now has more space outside than inside despite the 6 ft spacial distancing. And the place is always busy.

  159. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    One thing that has been good for us during the pandemic is money. My wife and I live on our social security alone. Long before the Covid we made it so we would have no debt – which is the only way you can live off of SS.
    So some months we would spend a little over and some months a little under.
    We evaluate our money every month on the first – which is today. Since March, we have added $12,000 to our bank account. I wonder what we spent money on when we were allowed to go out freely?
    I hope this is our new normal.

  160. filbertz says:

    our cafe is still open and doing fine, but that is largely because we have a large outdoor patio and people love it. Cooler/rainy weather is coming and will limit/eliminate that option. We are planning for a significant shift for the late fall/winter for grab’n’go menu and limited staff as well as ramping up our Dinners Delivered service. Our catering, which is the profitability portion of our business, remains decimated, so we are basically a non-profit organization now with owners donating their time. Fortunately, I’m still teaching, but without that, we’d be sunk too.

  161. CM says:


    Can you buy some more patio time with those propane patio heaters?

  162. Duane Arnold says:

    A bit of a helpful perspective today. I said a Requiem Mass for my friend, Steven Peay, who died last night after struggling with cancer over the last two years. +Steven was an Episcopal priest and had served as the Dean of Nashotah House, a seminary in the Anglo-Catholic tradition. He was a fine scholar and an exemplary priest. As I read the prayers, I was reminded once again of the transitory nature of our lives. The reality for us who believe is that only our life in Christ really matters, not as a pious reflection, but as a reality that transcends death. As concerned as I might be about the nation and the upcoming election the real calling of the Church is literally life and death. I say this mainly as a reminder to myself…

    Into thy hands, O merciful Savior, we commend thy servant
    Steven. Acknowledge, we humbly beseech thee, a sheep of thine
    own fold, a lamb of thine own flock, a sinner of thine own
    redeeming. Receive him into the arms of thy mercy, into the
    blessed rest of everlasting peace, and into the glorious
    company of the saints in light. Amen.

  163. bob1 says:


    I’m sorry for your loss. Sounds like he was an outstanding churchman.

    I also appreciate your musing. I was thinking something similar this afternoon about the transitoriness of our lives here.

  164. I noticed a crowd gathering yesterday at a home across the street yesterday, the same home from which the son came door to door soliciting donations because his mom caught Covid. Cars lined up and parked on the lawn. I saw about 30 people crowded together in the front yard this evening. I hope it isn’t an extended wake, yet I can’t help but think, the mom had Covid, why are you crowding together like that, no masks even. If it isn’t a wake and she’s ok, why are you throwing a huge, multi-day party?

  165. Dan from Georgia says:

    Hi Michael,

    Was thinking about your comment yesterday about all the anger out there that people want to express and whether or not to start a page or moderate/ban some comments. Perhaps a (semi-) regular post on lamenting and/or encouragement? I have had my fill of “this guy or that guy is worse than Hitler” comments. Yesterday’s comments here were discouraging until MLD asked people how they are coping/adapting. And yes I need to lament and sometimes scream. Even today I struggle with anger but not sure tearing down another person will help. Just a thought.

  166. Dan from Georgia says:

    To address a potential push-back comment that may be raised…I am aware that there is some verse(s) out there about “God please punish my enemies”…just wondering if we can put the focus somewhere else.

  167. Michael says:


    I honestly don’t know what to do.
    I’m a pastor…and I’m watching families and communities destroyed by division and a complete rejection of expertise and authority.
    I feel like I have a responsibility to speak to all these issues, but I have no idea what to say.
    My personal anger at various entities has been subsumed by a sadness and fear over what is inevitably going to happen.
    My personal desire is to shut down this site let the snowball roll down the hill to the lake of fire while I feed cats and stay in the trees.
    Unfortunately, there is always some religious asshat abusing people and here is where the victims go…and there has to be a place to go.

  168. Dan from Georgia says:

    Man, it is a very tough situation you are in (goes without saying). I personally wouldn’t mind a ban on all politically-tinged content, as some of us are just flat out exhausted and want to go into exile (literally and figuratively). I believe your having a place for the abused to speak out and find understanding and healing is sorely needed.

    We also need our outlet away from the battle…your cats, my music, other fellow travelers reads, etc. Peace of Christ to you Micheal. I will be here indefinitely in support of you.

  169. Michael says:

    Thank you, my friend.
    We will continue to appeal to people to be who they are called to be…while trying to do likewise.

  170. Em says:

    I always wonder how anyone who has experienced the overwhelming forgiving grace of God can act out viciously to a fellow Christian… Then today my reading was in the Psalms and David sure could declare the fate that awaited those who played fast and loose with the grace and holiness of God….
    There’s a little of David in many who post here, perhaps? That may be a good thing – dunno

    Sometimes i ask God just how far down the world can go… but then I’m not sure i want to know… Like Noah, keep working on the Ark?

  171. Jean says:

    It is true, as Paul wrote, that “if you do wrong, be afraid, for he [the governing authority] does not bear the sword in vain.” But is that the total sum and substance of a governing authority’s office?

    I find this wisdom from Luther quite relevant:

    “And what men are capable of doing it [ruling]? Certainly not those who would rule only with the fist, as many now think to do. For if men were to rule solely by the fist, the end result would surely be a bestial kind of existence: whoever could get the better of another would simply toss him into the discard pile. We have enough examples before our eyes to see what the fist can accomplish apart from wisdom or reason.”

    IMO something needs to be added to the sword to help America navigate through this period of unrest.

  172. bob1 says:

    There really seems to be no bottom to this man’s cruelty and inhumanity.

    Small wonder the majority of our military are not voting for him.

  173. directambiguity says:

    Nothing more reliable than an unverifiable anonymous source.

  174. CM says:


    The comments about McCain, of course, are verified as are the comments attacking the parents of Humayun Khan, an Army captain who was killed in Iraq in 2004. But I suspect you will cover your ears and go, “La La La La, I can’t hear you!” about that….

  175. directambiguity says:

    I acknowledge the comments about McCain etc.

    I also acknowledge what Trump has done for the veterans (VA) and our military and that McCain loved wars and that he promised over and over to repeal Obama Care to get elected again and in the last minute gave a thumbs down breaking his promise like all politicians.

  176. bob1 says:

    I can’t believe you’d diss John McCain, a war hero and a patriot, just because he voted against the ACA.

    McCain loved wars?? Bullspit.


  177. directambiguity says:

    No, He said over and over again he was going to repeal it jest to get elected he was lying! And yes he voted for every war he could.
    That’s despicable.
    And the article in the Atlantic is from an unverifiable anonymous source.

  178. bob1 says:

    You’ve really swallowed the right-wing Kool Aid lock stock and barrel, haven’t you?


  179. bob1 says:

    And I’m supposed to believe he voted on the ACA as he did so he could get reelected?

    See, the thing is…John knew when he voted that he had an inoperable brain tumor.

    Why would he give a damn about being reelected?

    Short, easy answer: he didn’t!

  180. Jean says:

    Just a couple points:

    1. There’s a difference between desiring the repeal of the ACA and having a “repeal and replacement” plan. That is what the GOP has been talking promising, yet I am not aware that any replacement legislation has been presented by the GOP. If it wasn’t in existence when MCain voted, then I assume he voted “no” because there as no replacement ready and he didn’t want to make vulnerable the people who depended on it. Does anyone here trust the GOP would replace the ACA with something better, as the President promises?

    2. I don’t think the US congress has declared war since WWII. So, I don’t know what votes McCain took during his career “for every war he could.”

    3. While not perfect, off the top of my head as I review the last decade or two, the passage of the ACA is arguably the greatest legislative achievement our government has made. It has added 10s of millions of Americans to the health insurance rolls and has strengthened insurance coverage for millions more.

    I fully support it and would like to see it strengthened and improved. On the significant weaknesses in America’s ability to address a pandemic is the failure to have universal health care. I think this is an important tool for all times, but particularly in a national health crises.

  181. Em says:

    Well….. ACA DOES need improvement….. Yes

  182. Duane Arnold says:

    “And the article in the Atlantic is from an unverifiable anonymous source.”

    Not according to the writer of the article…

    “…according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day.”

    “…according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event…”

    “…one of Kelly’s friends, a retired four-star general, told me…”

    “I’ve asked numerous general officers over the past year for their analysis…”

    And that does not include the quotes from named individuals…

  183. directambiguity says:

    What are their names? They would be hero’s and get million-dollar books deals.

  184. directambiguity says:

    McCain voted for Military Force in Iraq, he wanted wars in Lybia, Kosovo, and Ukraine and wanted us to go to war in Syria, not to mention the arms deals.

    And he said he would repeal Obama Care to get reelected. He lied.

    That’s about all. Peace out.

  185. CM says:


    And what of Trump’s lies and Trump’s arms deals with the Saudis? His selling out of the Kurds because Instanbul has a Trump tower and Kushner and Ergodan’s son have rather chummy business dealings? And Trump’s arms deals with the Saudis? His bogus promise to end the endless wars?

    But go and genuflect towards your Cheeto Jesus….

    His veto of Congressional legislation that would have ended the AUMFs and required Congressional authorization?

  186. Michael says:

    No one is going to change their minds at this point.

  187. Xenia says:

    You know, I am one who actually did change my mind (several times), based on PhxP posts.

    I never was going to vote for the Dems but I did waffle back and forth on whether I should take the “lesser of two evils” approach and not vote at all. Believe it or not, it was several posts by MLD, one in particular, that changed my mind to reluctantly vote for Trump.

    But there’s nothing CM can say that will change my mind at this point.

    Good effort, though.

  188. Xenia says:

    I do think, like everyone thinks, that there will be civil unrest after the election, and I think it might be a good idea to, metaphorically speaking, stock up on toilet paper.

    I think it likely that the election results will not be known on election night, unless it’s someone’s landslide. I think there will be issues with counting mail-in ballots, difficulties voting in person (COVID-related, or using COVID as an excuse) and all kinds of unknowns. I think people are going to get more restless and extreme than they are now, on both sides. Both sides will suspect conspiracy to defraud the election, and for all I know, they may be right. But there will be civil unrest. If Trump wins, the Leftists will do their usual “burn everything down” act and if Biden wins, I am not entirely sure Trump will vacate the White House. I hope I am wrong.

    So, I think we should prepare ourselves. We have seen that even smallish midwest cities are not immune from violence. I love my neighbors but there’s one or two that cause me to worry how they might act if their man loses.

  189. Jean says:

    The question for me in elections is not what so and so may say about a candidate, but “Is there anything a particular candidate could say or do that would change my mind?”

    Always in the back of my decision making process I am thinking about my children and grandchildren and asking what the medium and long term impacts are of the acts and omissions of a candidate?

    I see, along with many, many other Republicans and conservatives, both military and civilian, that the very fabric of our democratic republic is in jeopardy by the autocratic behavior of the incumbent. If find their concerns credible because they had first hand experience and knowledge the man and are privy to confidential and privileged conversations with the man. I could list over a half dozen generals and another dozen civilian leaders with sterling reputations that put country over politics and left serving the administration.

    Those Republicans and conservatives that left the Administration did so primarily based on honor and loyalty to the Constitution, and not so much over the Republican agenda itself, which on many issues I have serious issues with. But I can disagree on issues and see that as a battle to play out at the ballot box. But what jeopardizes our republic is when the ballot box itself is undermined by the President, where freedom of speech is jeopardized by the President, where abuse of power is exercised by the President, etc. When you loose those, their hard, if not impossible to retrieve peacefully.

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