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  1. Hope you have a great weekend, Michael. If you are going to the picture above, I am sure you will, well sans the snow of course. Sorry, but after SD, my wife says if she never sees snow again, that will be fine with her. 🙂

  2. Gary says:

    *sings* Almost heaven Proxy Falls…

  3. Derek, this location has snow pretty much year-round.

  4. Ugh. But, too each his own. 🙂

  5. Gary says:

    My wife and I are going on vacation tomorrow. Not sure when we’ll be back.

  6. You know, until you are away from somewhere, you don’t sometimes see the beauty that is there in front of you. Part of the appeal, for my wife and I, in moving to SD was the natural beauty of the Black Hills. Indeed, I enjoyed a lot of the outdoor activities there and the scenery was beautiful. In the summer, it doesn’t really get super humid hot. But, as my wife says, the winter’s are a boogerbear. Even the winter’s though, had a beauty that I had never experienced in my life before, with the snow cover making everything into a winter wonderland. But, I am not talking about SD.
    Once I got back to MS, I noticed all the things I had missed from familiarity growing up and it all took on a beauty that I had not noticed before.
    The lush green vegetation jumps out at you after the semi-arid pine and juniper of SD.
    The smell of honeysuckle wafting on the breeze is heady.
    The lightning bugs near dusk lighting their way around the yard. (That would be fireflies for other parts of the country.)
    I see flowers that don’t grow in SD everywhere I look.
    The turtles, that made my overgrown mess of a yard home, while I was gone.

    I am going to be taking some pictures to document some of the beautiful things I see and putting them on my photoblog on tumblr and putting the links here, so I can share some of that.

  7. Have a good vacation, Gary.

  8. Paigemom says:

    Ahhhh!! Enjoy your time away Michael! God bless you and Trey!

  9. covered says:

    Oh, Derek, if you have every been to Crater Lake you would know that it’s probably where God vacations. I have been blessed to travel around most of the world and this place is in the top 3 for beautiful creation.

    When I read that you moved to SD I chuckled because San Diego doesn’t have any Black Hills 🙂

  10. covered says:

    I hope that you and your bride enjoy your vacation Gary.

  11. Probably not the best abbreviation to use, where a large majority of the people who leave comments are from SoCal.
    Maybe my allergy to snow will pass in a few years. 😉

  12. covered says:

    CK, have you been to Crater Lake?

  13. covered says:

    I’m allergic to SD in CA. Happy to be out of so cal.

  14. Gary says:

    I didn’t appreciate the beauty of SoCal until I had to go back there. Then I noticed all the orange groves were gone replaced by civilization, and the air was even more purple and stinkier than when I left, and so many odd looking people speaking languages I never heard when I grew up there. The whole city was run down. The thing I missed the most was how my neighborhood had changed. When I was growing up it was a new lower middle class neighborhood. Simple and very clean. When I returned it was a third world dump. Cars up on wood jacks, piles of trash, bent wrought iron fences with broken gates, broken windows, broken cinderblock walls, damages houses, dirt or rocks where green lawns used to be, stumps of trees. Boy, I can’t wait to visit again.

  15. covered says:

    Gary, I know how you feel. I grew up in what used to be considered a great area. Now it is much like what you describe. We are at a age where our surroundings are very important and therefore God has blessed us by letting us move considerably north. I am grateful for things like no traffic, few neighbors, much greenery and great fish n chips 🙂

  16. I love living in SoCal. I live in South Orange County and the surroundings are pristine. I am about 15 min from the beach – the cities have low crime rates so the tax money is spent on parks and cultural events.

    Traffic? Well that another story. 🙂

  17. I am off to a family party. My niece graduated Thursday afternoon from UCLA with a doctorate in Holocaust studies.

  18. Congrats to your niece, MLD.

  19. covered says:

    Yep, congrats MLD. The last 20 years I lived in SoCal, it was in So OC which is better (for me) than other parts of OC. I’m still grateful to be much more north.

  20. Gary says:

    I lived in Santa Ana close to Irvine and Tustin before there was a southern Orange County except on the coast. Now we live near SF. Much better but would love to go farther north.

    I visited Crater Lake when my sister’s Christian t shirt company moved up there. Very pristine. The lake, not the t shirt company.

  21. Muff Potter says:

    I sometimes miss the Wisconsin of my youth. Especially the beauty of the Door county peninsula jutting into Lake Michigan.

  22. My photoblog.
    http://slantedview.tumblr.com/

    I added 8 photos today. Including a newly saved turtle. 🙂

  23. mrtundraman says:

    “My niece graduated Thursday afternoon from UCLA with a doctorate in Holocaust studies.”

    Is she a Lutheran too? If so, that would be really ironic…

  24. mrtundraman says:

    Derek, you asked for passages. I gave you a bunch on the other thread and then you vanished…

  25. MTM, do you have to attack MLD on every thread? You are boorish.

  26. mrtundraman says:

    Derek, you nagged me repeatedly all day for the quotes which show that the Greek word (transliterated as) “presbuteros” is translated as “priest” in the verses of any translation contemporaneous to the KJV. I presented at least a half a dozen such examples from the Catholic Bible which translate the word as “priest”. Can you at least acknowledge that I have met the test you demanded (even if you don’t like the test now)?

  27. mrtundraman says:

    “MTM, do you have to attack MLD on every thread? You are boorish.”

    Obviously we don’t share the same sense of irony…

  28. MTM, go to that thread, my answer is there. I won’t take this thread up with that.

  29. Jtk says:

    On vacay myself.

    Just finished Seinfeld—EVERY episode.

    NOW WHAT?!
    Any recommendations?

  30. My wife and I are watching “Foyle’s War” on Netflix and loving it.

  31. covered says:

    It would grieve Michael if we can’t get along on this thread or any other thread since he already declared there would be minimal to no moderation this weekend. I love how 2 sam says, “at the time when kings go out to battle…”, to me this implies that there was a time when battles couldn’t be fought possibly because of bad weather etc. Maybe this is time to not do battle until Michael can have some sort of control? Just asking, not pointing at anyone, just asking.

  32. covered says:

    Jtk, Godfather trilogy?

  33. Covered,
    Guilty here. I am out of it though.

  34. mrtundraman says:

    Isn’t Open Blogging open blogging?

  35. mrtundraman says:

    How about going with the subject MLD brought up? Were Lutherans complicit in the killing of Jews in Nazi Germany? How did Lutheran theology enable Hitler and the anti-semites in Germany?

    I’d be interested in the subject. Here’s something I found on the web at a reputable source:

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005206
    The population of Germany in 1933 was around 60 million. Almost all Germans were Christian, belonging either to the Roman Catholic (ca. 20 million members) or the Protestant (ca. 40 million members) churches.

  36. Nonnie says:

    Covered’s 32….thank you and yes, I agree.

    JTK, We really enjoy The Middle and Modern Family

  37. mrtundraman says:

    “My niece graduated Thursday afternoon from UCLA with a doctorate in Holocaust studies.”

    I generally respect anyone who had the discipline to get a PhD in anything, but what do you do with a PhD in Holocaust Studies? I guess you can teach classes on Holocaust Studies, but isn’t that just a pyramid game? PhD in history, sure, but in Holocaust Studies? Really?

  38. Gary says:

    # 36 This is a very good illustration of how anybody and everybody can call themselves a Christian when all they are is church-goers.

    jtk,
    How about Monk or Sherlock Homes?

  39. #39. I couldn’t get into the new Sherlock. I love the Jeremy Brett version though. That whole series is on Netflix.

  40. Steve Wright says:

    Tundra, feel free to declare your self-determined victories at the other site, but I just want to make sure you know that my seminary was not Dallas Seminary.

    I did recently describe it as a “poor-man’s Dallas” so no doubt that was your confusion. I’m hoping you won’t try to win yet another argument as to where I actually went to school.

    I say this, because I would guess that in a few weeks something will come up and that blog’s owner and moderators will howl “Steve’s a liar who claimed to go to Dallas yada yada” and then try to tie me in to Ergun Caner

    Carry on….

  41. Steve Wright says:

    And as an aside…yes, when I hear I am front page news I tend to go over there and read.

    Posting however is another matter. So I tell you here.

  42. I wouldn’t give it a second thought, Steve. I remember the “poor man’s Dallas” comment. Haters gonna hate.

  43. Steve Wright says:

    Thanks, Derek. I’m sure Tundra just goofed. No big deal.

    I just know…call it long experience…that such a post can lead to that blog host saying something like “Steve runs around telling everyone he has a Dallas seminary degree”

    That sort of thing has happened before (not Dallas, but a false statement first declared, then parroted as fact..sometimes even in the same thread! 🙂

    It is one of the perils with posting here.

    I’m all with covered’s suggestion @32 above. I intend no grief for Michael on his trip.

  44. mrtundraman says:

    “I just want to make sure you know that my seminary was not Dallas Seminary.”

    That’s a relief. Just when I thought their standards had declined…

    “when I hear I am front page news I tend to go over there and read”

    Maybe the back side of the next to the last page. Somewhere near the obits…

  45. Gary says:

    Jeremy Bret- that’s my favorite. Probably seen every episode 3 times. Can’t decide which Watson I like better. The new one is over the top.

  46. mrtundraman says:

    I can understand why Steve would not want to talk about the Greek anymore. My guess is that he portrays himself to his church as someone who knows the Greek and he may be afraid that some of his attendees will read what he wrote and realize it just aint so.

  47. mrtundraman says:

    I can understand also why Steve would go read Alex’s BLOG. For some reason he’s consistently got 4-5x the traffic of this BLOG. Even when his BLOG is boring to the max…

  48. Foe anyone who ever needs to search this site for a comment you made here is a handy way to do that. The search function on the site only searches the text of the articles, not comments.

    Goto google and type in:

    site: http://www.michaelnewnham.com followed by your search term.

  49. mrtundraman says:

    I don’t understand the aversion to spirited discussions here. Can someone explain what the thought process is? After all of these years I just don’t get it. It seems like it goes in waves.

    I think I get why Michael gets agitated at Ricky Bobby and his shake and bake because Ricky Bobby is a one track record crusading against abuse. Is it that Michael just doesn’t believe it makes a big difference? Who cares if something makes a big difference?

    Maybe I’m just not a pragmatic person. Do we care about truth or not? If one church puts in place a policy that protects one child from a life scared by abuse isn’t that worth it all? Why the defeatist attitude?

    I say man up and do what we are called to do.

  50. Sorry it formatted a bit wrong type in “site: https://phoenixpreacher.com” followed by the search term.

  51. I have had a song stuck in y head all day long. It is the theme song to Davy Crockett.

    Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
    Greenest state in the Land of the Free
    Raised in the woods so’s he knew every tree
    Kilt him a b’ar when he was only three.
    Davy, Davy Crockett, King of the wild frontier!

    I have no idea why either.

  52. mrtundraman says:

    Thanks for planting the ear worm…

  53. Gary says:

    Gravy, gravy pockets, bling of the wild frontier!
    Oil that is. Black gold. Texas tea.

  54. MTM,
    Well let’s see;
    1.) my niece is Jewish. I am the only Christian in my family.
    2.) my niece does a lot of work with and for the Holocaust museum in DC.
    3.) she has headed up research teams interviewing Holocaust survivors in Germany, Israel and Poland – living in each country for 1 yr periods each.
    4.) I am sad to hear that you are another who would rather blame Luther for the Holocaust and give Hitler a pass.

    And what have you done professionally with your 2 Masters degrees? …. yes, just what I thought … nothing. (oh wait, you have you Wiki – LOL 🙂 loser.

  55. mrtundraman says:

    “And what have you done professionally with your 2 Masters degrees?”

    I have a Master’s Degree in Computer Engineering and I’ve worked for more than 25 years as a Computer Engineer so I guess that one’s working out fairly well.

    The other two are in Theology then a MDiv. I served as a pastor for about 6 years and use the knowledge often even today when I am back in Engineering.

  56. mrtundraman says:

    “she has headed up research teams interviewing Holocaust survivors in Germany, Israel and Poland – living in each country for 1 yr periods each.”

    That’s a gig with a limited time left since they are getting older and dying off every day.

  57. mrtundraman says:

    “I am sad to hear that you are another who would rather blame Luther for the Holocaust and give Hitler a pass.”

    Hitler was a Catholic but 2/3 of the people were Evangelical/Lutheran. Luther was dead for about 400 years so I can’t blame him… Maybe his theology, though…

  58. “That’s a gig with a limited time left since they are getting older and dying off every day.”

    You are, in typical MTM fashion, the only person I know who chooses to criticize a person when they get a PhD.

    But then I guess your hatred has blinded you.

  59. I guess since Steve, Derek and Gary kept catching you errors and misquotes on the other thread, you can only try to save face by attacking my niece.

  60. Muff Potter says:

    I have had a song stuck in y head all day long. It is the theme song to Davy Crockett.

    Derek, strange is as strange does. Just a couple of days ago when I was brewing the morning joe, the theme music from The Rifleman started playing in my head. I loved that show when I was a kid. I guess I’m still just an old kid in many ways.

  61. brian says:

    Can I ask, what most likely is a rather silly question, but I want to get some input. I try very hard to accommodate people, that is obvious. So I have these “rules” that I follow, I am careful around children in stores and other public places, when they run around I stop, step out of the way and it sometimes looks weird or awkward, but mainly I do this because I do not see well and do not want to trip over them. I try not to bump or rub up against people, if it is close quarters I usually leave and come back later, again because I dont see well. I do not get on elevators with women alone late at night or if they look scared or intimidated by me being there. Trust me I dont intimidate I always look down, give lots of room but if there is a look I will wait. I have seen relief on the faces of many women when I have done this and even a smile, one time she hit the open button and said its ok. On the street I dont follow, if I am walking the same way as they are and its night and they seem nervous I will turn the other way walk across the street or just wait a few minutes.

    Tonight I was out for my usual late night walk and I turned out of my park and was right behind her, she looked really nervous looking around pacing while waiting for the light so when it came time to cross I waited for the next light cycle, which is about three minutes. Do you think I am stupid? Am I giving into Liberal feminism what ever that is, etc. ?

  62. erunner says:

    MLD, I’ve shared that my mother’s family are Holocaust survivors and lived in the Shanghai ghetto for eight years. I would be very interested if your niece learned of the Shanghai Jews and if she has maybe there’s a site she could direct me to.

    My mother would never speak of her past as I was growing up and I learned of the holocaust at public school. Through the years she has shared bits and pieces of her time in China with me. I know Spielberg spent much time interviewing holocaust survivors and I think those interviews are invaluable. Family members many years from now will be thankful that that part of their lineage had been recorded and is available to them. The work your niece has done is invaluable.

  63. London says:

    How absolutely ridiculous to bash on about a young woman you’ve never met’s creditials and discount all her hard work and success just because she is related to someone you disagree on a blog.

  64. brian says:

    MLD congratulations to your niece that is a high and sacred calling. My father went into one of those camps, like my mother said it did something to him, being 19 years old and leading men in war. I cant imagine, I am a very shallow rendition of my father, often being a whiny little kid compared to true wrongs suffered. As one of the last remaining members of my immediate family I often pour over pictures and letters looking for insight into those years. I dont want to forget and if need be over my dead body to prevent it from happening again. I doubt I have such strength apart from some divine mandate but I can hope. I was wondering in your nieces studies did they go over the T4 program in Nazi Germany ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

    That is not a gotcha question and Wikipedia has a very small and in someways shallow rendering of this topic but it is germane to this discussion. In my experience people with profound disabilities are often regulated to the dustbin of live, out of site out of mind, the hygiene laws in the US support this where people with developmental disabilities or other cognitive issues were sterilized. Some of the laws in Nazi Germany drew some of their ideas from our laws in the US. Having seen the effect in my limited personal experience I can say I struggle. Some of the Nazi laws started with the laws that lead to the killing of the disabled. It is a long very sad trail I could go into but I cant because it hurts me to much. Goes to show what a pathetic piece if trash I am but that is another post. I hoped she learned about this group of folks who suffered, if not I hope she learns, it is a good degree, my cry, never again, never. I am not sure God agrees with me but that to is another post.

  65. brian says:

    This is likely the most powerful music video that describes my understanding of the Gospel

    http://youtu.be/3aF9AJm0RFc

    I had a long diatribe, but they are useless. It seems Mr. Cash found some good news in the end who am I to argue with that. I hope to find the same when my end comes.

  66. #65 London. I agree. It is one thing to argue with MLD at every turn, but that whole Nazi thing was a bit much.

  67. Bob says:

    MTM

    I’m not a fan in any sort of MLD but your attacks on this thread are over the top. You really need to get some compassion and you actually sound a lot like Alex.

  68. Nonnie says:

    Bob just said what I have been thinking. 2 of a kind.

  69. Bob says:

    MTM

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g05.html

    I would suggest you not be like the man mentioned on this thread. He must live a very difficult life.

    Blessings

  70. Gary says:

    Bob,
    You mean mtm sounds like Alex when Alex was at his lowest, right? He’s not Alex.

  71. Bob says:

    Gary

    Alex has a lot of issues and I was enjoying reading this thread until MTM came and tried to get people riled up. No point in doing so except, I believe, to be malicious. You’re probably right about MTM not being Alex and the comparison.

    It’s a blessed Father’s Day.

  72. Bob,
    I am sure that MTM would just blow off those article. He would probably make up some story about the writer being some Swedish sex offender or something of that nature.

  73. mrtundraman says:

    Bob, funny that you would put up that link. Last time when erunner put it up Michael pulled it down and said it was not appropriate. But I guess while Michael is away…

  74. mrtundraman says:

    I don’t believe that Amsterdam is in Sweden…

  75. mrtundraman says:

    No need to make up anything since it’s documented elsewhere:

    http://www.cultnews.com/?p=1636

  76. #75. Don’t want erunner to take the blame that is mine. It was me last time.
    I agree with Bob’s 73, i was enjoying it too.
    All I have to say on this subject.

    Anyone want to think of a topic that doesn’t have to do with this?

  77. mrtundraman says:

    I wrote “That’s a gig with a limited time left since they are getting older and dying off every day.”

    MLD wrote “You are, in typical MTM fashion, the only person I know who chooses to criticize a person when they get a PhD.”

    Not a criticism in any sense of the word. Just a note about actuarial tables. Do the math. I think it’s important to get their stories recorded while we still can. Sounds like she’s doing a good thing even if the degree itself sounds specious to me.

  78. mrtundraman says:

    Sorry erunner. I think maybe he did it first… Maybe not…

  79. mrtundraman says:

    I suggested a great topic and others have responded to part of the subject.

    How about “What was the interaction between the predominant Lutheran religion in Germany in the 1930’s and the rise of the Nazi movement?”

    I have to say that I know very little other than a couple of names like the Lutheran “pastor” Bonhoeffer who actively resisted the nazis. But there must have been a lot of Lutherans who went along with Hitler since he did end up in power.

    I think being born in the early 60s was the wrong time to learn about WW II. My textbooks in school were too old to have anything about WW II and my parents and grandparents lived through it so they didn’t have much to say since it was just assumed.

    On this subject there’s a really good HBO movie that they have on youtube called “Fatherland” which explores the idea that the Nazis didn’t lose WW II.

    http://youtu.be/4BUzxvrWNBY

  80. London says:

    Sounds like a good topic for discussion on a history of WWII blog. Maybe you’ll find some more stimulating conversation in your topic there.

  81. erunner says:

    Happy Father’s Day MTM!! My memory is not perfect but I don’t believe I have posted anything about what you referenced in your #75 for several years. Enjoy your day!!

  82. It would be a great exploration – probably no different than exploring the Orthodox who helped lead in Lenin and Stalin who killed more folks than Hitler.

    Look, just because people of faith do an action does not mean it is because of their faith, but probably more likely in spite of their faith.

    Look what Christians did to try to destroy southeast Asia in the 60s and 70s. Christians voted in the leaders that created havoc around the world.

  83. Bob says:

    The first instruction with a promise is to “honor your father and mother.” Sadly many teach that to children so they will obey them. But what does it mean to honor my father?

    The word honor may have lost some its meaning since Moses penned those words of God for us to hear, however what I found in Hebrew it has the picture of weighing both the good and the bad. What do I remember about my father? He, in his measure, helped me go the path I’m on today. I was there when he died and I know this, he was pleased with me.

    Thank you!

  84. mrtundraman says:

    “Sounds like a good topic for discussion on a history of WWII blog. Maybe you’ll find some more stimulating conversation in your topic there.”

    i doubt they’d be interested in the theological aspect at a BLOG like that.

  85. mrtundraman says:

    MLD wrote “It would be a great exploration – probably no different than exploring the Orthodox who helped lead in Lenin and Stalin who killed more folks than Hitler.”

    That would be an interesting comparison. From what I read on Wikipedia:

    “The Russian Orthodox Church supported the White Army in the Russian Civil War (see White movement) after the October Revolution. This may have further strengthened the Bolshevik animus against the church. According to Lenin, a communist regime cannot remain neutral on the question of religion but must show itself to be merciless towards it. There was no place for the church in Lenin’s classless society.”

    Sounds quite different than the Evangelical (mostly Lutheran) church in Germany in the 1930’s. Wikipedia has:

    “The Protestant Reich Church, officially The German Evangelical Church (German: Deutsche Evangelische Kirche) and colloquially Reichskirche, was a unified state church that espoused a single doctrine compatible with National Socialism.”

    That sounds dramatically different leading me to think that MLD’s comments are merely meant (as usual) to throw aspersion on the Orthodox Church and lack any basis in fact.

  86. I agree, London, might be interesting on a WWII blog, but hardly good fare for here. More of the Lutheran smear tactics I always expect to see associated with MTM.

  87. mrtundraman says:

    And Wikipedia’s deliberate smear campaign as well. They obviously hate Lutherans and love the Orthodox on the basis of the two quotes above. And any other history book out there. They all have the same story, right? Oh, maybe a Nazi book would differ…

  88. Wikipedia, a very authoritative source. (chuckles)

  89. I am sure anyone can dig up anything on some christian denomination, if they dig deep enough. Much like Gary said on another thread yesterday, the problem with churches is they are full of people.
    But, since you are not as EO as you appear, what does it matter to you?
    It doesn’t is the real answer, only squabbling with MLD is really important. Some vendetta, that I am sure dates from your original time on this blog.
    All I really learn from you is that you hold a grudge and that “by hook or by crook” is your method.

  90. Xenia says:

    MLD, the Orthodox despised the Communists and were supporters of the White Army. My parish is full of the descendants of the White faction. The peasants also hated the Communists. If you are truly interested in the origins of the 1917 Revolution, I can recommend some books. Otherwise, again, you are speaking in ignorance.

    However, I don’t blame Lutheranism for the Holocaust.

  91. mrtundraman says:

    I am interested in trying to understand the interplay between church and state in Germany in the 1930’s. What was it about those people who allowed them to become what they eventually became? It is often said that the antisemitism of Europe in general was to blame. Did that cut across Lutheran and Catholic boundaries in Germany?

  92. mrtundraman says:

    Xenia, What happened once the communists were firmly in power? Wasn’t there some compromise between the ROC and the government at that time? Didn’t it result in two Russian Orthodox churches in America? One that was compromised with the state? I ask honestly because I don’t know the story very well.

  93. I guess that would be why this all started with you seeing “irony” in MLD’s niece, who you thought at the time might be Lutheran, taking holocaust studies. Sounds just like your #93. NOT! Oh, what a tangled web we weave…
    Please, spare us any further deceptions.

  94. mrtundraman says:

    “I guess that would be why this all started with you seeing “irony” in MLD’s niece, who you thought at the time might be Lutheran”

    Actually, if you re-read what I wrote you will find a question…

    “Is she a Lutheran too? If so, that would be really ironic…”

  95. mrtundraman says:

    Derek, I am trying hard to remember back to any conversation that you ever contributed anything of substance to… Trying and failing. Sorry.

  96. I guess that makes it all better. So sorry, #93 is reconciled in my mind now….hahaha! Not.

    Well, enough of this, better things to do than spend more wasted time, I am sure everyone can read back through and see the truth of the matter. It isn’t that hard you know.

    Adieu.

  97. Actually MTM, you have gone from blaming Hitler’s actionsfist on Luther himself, then Lutheran theology and now the Lutheran Church i it self.

    How does you mind that way? Why do I not see any blame on Hitler. Your evil thought are similar to the person who blames the rape victim. Why is it not that Lutherans were also victimized by Hitler. You blame Chuck Smith for victimizing the people who support him?

  98. MTM, you do a great dishonor to all Lutherans we fought and died in WWII trying to liberate Europe and the Jews from Hitler’s Nazism.

    Did you dad (a Lutheran) serve in WWII or was he on Hitler’s side – by just being a Lutheran?

  99. MTM’s biggest offensive statement against my niece getting her PhD was saying that she was a part of a pyramid scheme.

    From MTM “I generally respect anyone who had the discipline to get a PhD in anything, but what do you do with a PhD in Holocaust Studies? I guess you can teach classes on Holocaust Studies, but isn’t that just a pyramid game? PhD in history, sure, but in Holocaust Studies? Really?”

  100. mrtundraman says:

    MLD all interesting questions but not at all relevant to the subject at hand. Why were the Lutherans in Germany so open to Hitler who blamed the problems of Germany on the Jews? Luther’s anti-Semitic comments are well documented. When Hitler blamed the Jews for the problems in Germany the German Lutherans were susceptible to his prejudice.

  101. mrtundraman says:

    Don’t feel bad, MLD. I feel even less respect for “Women’s studies”, “African American Studies” and “underwater basket weaving” programs at universities today.

    According to this site there is only one college offering a PhD in Holocaust Studies.

    http://suite101.com/article/holocaust-studies-at-us-colleges-universities-a195388

    Was her PhD from Clark University in Massachusetts?

  102. I’m sorry that you do not understand antisemitism which is a hatred of a race of people. Luther would have known nothing of antisemitism – his argument was against their religion – not the people. The reason? for being against Christianity and Jesus Christ – just as he was against the Turks and in a way the reason he was against the pope who he though was anti Christian.

  103. Why don’t you just admit that you are wrong and close up shop. I said yesterday;

    “My niece graduated Thursday afternoon from UCLA with a doctorate in Holocaust studies.”

    Now since your knowledge base is only what you can Google, you show your ignorance.

    But remember, you are the guy who refuses to identify where you obtained you “so called” Masters degrees. I know they originated on the back of a match book cover,but where did they come from?

  104. mrtundraman says:

    Thanks. MLD I missed that in your original post.

    Looking at the UCLA site I see they have a holocaust studies center, but for the life of me I can’t see that they offer a program which offers “a doctorate in Holocaust studies”.

    Sounds like MLD just misunderstood the degree she got – she probably got a degree in another program like history or social sciences with a specialty in Holocaust studies.

  105. mrtundraman says:

    From the UCLA site:

    “Today, graduate students across the Social Sciences and Humanities Divisions are engaged in researching the Holocaust and genocide in an innovative and interdisciplinary manner, one that is not limited by any singular perspective.”

  106. I’ll tell you what, I will let you keep denouncing my niece and her efforts – I am not the offended party – she is.

    So tell me (since you never answered) was your dad, the Lutheran, a Hitler loving Nazi supporter – just by being a Lutheran? (I know you will come back and say “at that time he was a Methodist. 🙂

    So what about all the Lutherans who fought in WWII – Nazi sympathizers?

  107. Well, since you hold to anything you fin on the internet – why should we deny this one.

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g05.html

    btw – I love the portion about the Passantino’s rejecting you.

  108. mrtundraman says:

    MLD, which imaginary PhD program from UCLA did she enroll in again? You say she got “a doctorate in Holocaust studies” but I can’t find that on the UCLA site. Can you point me to someplace – anyplace – on the UCLA site which says that UCLA offers “a doctorate in Holocaust studies”? I’m calling your claim BS and you can EASILY prove me wrong…

  109. “and you can EASILY prove me wrong”

    Why would I care to answer you. I won’t let you ruin my viewing of the US Open.

    But since family is fair game – tell me about your nazi sympathizing Lutheran father – why do you avoid my questions/?…

    Also, tell us about the Paasantino’s rejecting you?

  110. mrtundraman says:

    From http://jhate.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/concordia-university-hosted-a-holocaust-denier/
    “Concordia University in Wisconsin hosted Rev. Herman Otten on February 3, where he spoke about “questions on contemporary issues facing the Lutheran Church.” Who is Herman Otten? On the front page of its website at the time, Concordia described Otten as a “powerful Lutheran figure.” I [the webpage author] describe Otten as an anti-Semite and Holocaust denier.”

  111. mrtundraman says:

    In recent years the Lutherans have rejected their anti-Semitic history:

    “In the spirit of that truth-telling, we who bear his name and heritage must with pain acknowledge also Luther’s anti-Judaic diatribes and the violent recommendations of his later writings against the Jews. As did many of Luther’s own companions in the sixteenth century, we reject this violent invective, and yet more do we express our deep and abiding sorrow over its tragic effects on subsequent generations. In concert with the Lutheran World Federation, we particularly deplore the appropriation of Luther’s words by modern anti-Semites for the teaching of hatred toward Judaism or toward the Jewish people in our day.

    Grieving the complicity of our own tradition within this history of hatred, moreover, we express our urgent desire to live out our faith in Jesus Christ with love and respect for the Jewish people. We recognize in anti-Semitism a contradiction and an affront to the Gospel, a violation of our hope and calling, and we pledge this church to oppose the deadly working of such bigotry, both within our own circles and in the society around us. Finally, we pray for the continued blessing of the Blessed One upon the increasing cooperation and understanding between Lutheran Christians and the Jewish community.”
    (“Declaration of ELCA to the Jewish Community,” 1994

  112. mrtundraman says:

    The Lutheran Church in Austria wrote about the holocaust-

    “We realize with shame that our churches showed themselves inured by the fate of the Jews and countless other victims of persecution. This is all the more incomprehensible because Protestant Christians in their own history, especially in the Counter-Reformation, were themselves discriminated against and persecuted. The churches did not protest against visible injustice; they were silent and looked away; they did not ‘throw themselves into the spokes of the wheel’ (Bonhoeffer).

    Therefore, not only individual Christians but also our churches share in the guilt of the Holocaust/Shoah”

  113. London says:

    Oh yeah. Now I remember why you were banned for all these years.

  114. I can play – Rasputin is the face of Orthodoxy

    So tell me about the Paasantino’s – you like to brag about the relationship – but I read they denounced you.

    Gretchen is a FB friend – I think I will send her a private message and let her know you are claiming a close relationship and see her reply.

  115. Xenia says:

    Rasputin, in many ways, did exemplify some of the ideals of Orthodoxy. If you handed him ten rubles, he’d immediately give them away to the next person he met. He loved everyone and seldom was unkind. He appears to have had the gifts of prophecy and of healing.

    He has some serious character flaws as well and was not ever ordained as a priest or tonsured as a monk. He should not have been called “Father” Gregory. He had probably been influenced by a group of Siberian cultists and depending on how involved he was with this group, it might not even been appropriate to call him “Orthodox.” Is Rasputin in heaven today? I would not be surprised if he is.

    Not entering the argument here, just supplying some information.

  116. antisemitism in the Orthodox Church

    http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/a-greek-bishops-anti-semitic-tirade/

    I can go on – Google is full of this stuff.

    But see, I blame Hitler – unlike you who wants to blame Luther, Lutherans, the entire Lutheran Church and my niece.

  117. Xenia says:

    The Orthodox Church under Communism forked into two paths. The official church, the one barely tolerated by the Communists and often infiltrated by KGB agents, was championed by some as the only way the Church could survive. The underground church did not want to compromise at all and formed what we call the Church of the Catacombs. Both groups had genuine believers but of course, the underground Church is more exciting and romantic. We have books full of the stories of the martyrs- The New Martyrs, we call them- of the Communist Yoke.

    In America, we have 2 Orthodox jurisdictions of Russian origin, the OCA and ROCOR. The OCA derives from those original Russian missionaries that traveled to Alaska in the 17-18th centuries and evangelized the Eskimos and other tribes. They reached down into California and there’s one of their churches on Green Street in San Francisco, still a vibrant parish to this day. These folks formed the OCA (Orthodox Church in America.)

    ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) was formed on the east coast, mostly emigrees fleeing Communism. It was separate from the Moscow Patriarch because of KGB infiltration of the MP. There was an agreement made with the Church back in the Soviet Union that when Communism fell (it was always assumed that Communism would fall) the two churches would rejoin. This actually happened a few years ago.

    I wrote this post to answer a question that was asked above.

  118. Xenia says:

    All the good work I have done here trying to explain Orthodoxy is being undone in one weekend.

    🙁

  119. Xenia,
    Don’t sweat it.
    Like I said, dig into any christian denomination and you will find something. This is why I think you are a far superior spokesperson for Orthdoxy, than the newly appointed one. This is the result of someone who can’t even restrain himself from attacking people’s family members.
    I don’t think anyone is reading this and not seeing what is really going on.

  120. Glen says:

    Yes, what Derek said in 123………..

  121. It’s funny, MTM probably made 10 – 15 anti Lutheran comments and I responded directly to only one. His continual posts of links by obscure Lutheran people deserves the “well what about your guy’s links”

    I never deny the bad done by people in my denomination – we have scoundrels – that’s why we invite them to church. I never deny that Lutheran denominations have gone crazy and ordain women and homosexuals, or even bigger seem to deny scripture.

    Hey Lutherans are a flawed people – myself as chief among them. But for MTM to make like the hands of the Orthodox are not stained and they maintain some pristine stance is absolutely ridiculous.

  122. mrtundraman says:

    Xenia wrote – “All the good work I have done here trying to explain Orthodoxy is being undone in one weekend.”

    How so? Nobody sees MLD as credible.

  123. mrtundraman says:

    The latest point is where MLD claimed that his niece received “a doctorate in Holocaust studies” at UCLA, but didn’t think anyone would check his claims. UCLA doesn’t offer “a doctorate in Holocaust studies”. Now, I don’t think that MLD is lying although he is wrong. I will be more gracious than that.

  124. mrtundraman says:

    “continual posts of links by obscure Lutheran people”

    LOL. The official statement of the major Lutheran denomination in the USA, the ELCA are hardly “obscure people”. One thing you gotta say about MLD, he does keep you laughing…

  125. mrtundraman says:

    “The Orthodox Church under Communism forked into two paths.”

    That (being split into 2 parts) must have been a very stressful time for the Russian church since unity is a key principle of the EO church.

  126. mrtundraman says:

    “Like I said, dig into any christian denomination and you will find something.”

    Orthodoxy isn’t a “christian denomination”, it is the true church.

  127. “How so? Nobody sees MLD as credible.”

    I think she was talking about you. I think it tears down Orthodox credibility to blame the Holocaust on Lutherans. I find that very troubling.

  128. I take it back – Rasputin is not the face of Orthodoxy – MTM has made himself that poster boy.

    The only way to save the blog is to ignore MTM which I will now do.

    To the rest of you, please protect your relatives and don’t bring up their joyful events – they are not safe around MTM – my niece may as well be Chuck Smith.

    Xenia – he is all yours now.

  129. mrtundraman says:

    “I think it tears down Orthodox credibility to blame the Holocaust on Lutherans.”

    The ELCA has already admitted their complicity in the Holocaust. Nothing to do with the EO.

    I wonder what your nice with the “doctorate in Holocaust studies from UCLA” has to say about the Lutheran Church complicity? Would she agree with the Lutheran Church of Austria and the ELCA that they bear responsibility?

  130. Xenia,
    My #125 was to you, not that other guy.

  131. mrtundraman says:

    “The only way to save the blog is to ignore MTM which I will now do.”

    Wouldn’t it be better for you to start telling the truth?

  132. mrtundraman says:

    “Rasputin is not the face of Orthodoxy”

    He’s more the Lonnie Frisbee – a wild mystic – and it’s hard to control a mystic.

    “MTM has made himself that poster boy.”

    I am not worthy to untie the laces of their boots. I am not a member, although I get more sympathetic to the EO everytime I chat with Evangelicals. Someday I may be able to find myself worthy of joining to such a group. First I need to work out the last remaining remnants of my Protestantism. Thanks to those here who are helping me with that. I appreciate it.

  133. Xenia,
    I have heard some claim that the EO calls itself the “true church”. If so, wouldn’t that by default make all other churches the false church or at best the untrue church? We know that there cannot be 2 “true” churches and if one is “less true” than another it indeed is not true.

    Is this really the EO position?

  134. mrtundraman says:

    MLD wrote (16 minutes after he claimed he would ignore me) –

    “I have heard some claim that the EO calls itself the “true church”.”

    That would be ME. LOL. So much for MLD ignoring me… 🙂

    “If so, wouldn’t that by default make all other churches the false church or at best the untrue church?”

    Not sure if Xenia is game, but I can answer that…

    There is one church.
    The Orthodox church is the true church.
    The Orthodox don’t judge the others… Only God knows who is His.

    “We know that there cannot be 2 “true” churches and if one is “less true” than another it indeed is not true.”

    That’s a Protestant way of looking at it.

    Clearly the Orthodox church is the true church. What church are they if they are not? They are not the church of Wesley, Luther, Calvin, or any other person. Their churches were founded by Paul and the other Apostles. They have the historical continuity of apostolic succession. So even if you think that your church is a “true church” it doesn’t alter their claims to be the true church.

  135. Xenia,
    Some spokesman for the EO is reading your mail. 😉

  136. mrtundraman says:

    Even though I see myself as grossly unworthy to be a part of the EO I try to understand other religious groups and fairly represent them. That is why I go to their sources and when I speak about Lutheran churches, I go to their sources as well. I try to be charitable with their sources and let them speak for themselves. I don’t often act well when I speak but I do try to be fair and honest…

  137. My apologies to all for falling into the debate trap MTM has laid for many over these past 20 yrs.

    I am 100% guilty.

  138. mrtundraman says:

    Now, on the flip side there are various anathemas such as this (ROCOR 1983):

    “Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ’s Church is divided into so-called “branches” which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all “branches” or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!”

  139. Steve Wright says:

    I know moderation is limited this weekend. I hope when it resumes this thread is reviewed.

    I can’t believe the FAMILY MEMBER of a regular part of our community is being used in such a manner as the above.

    UCLA has a large, distinguished ‘Center for Jewish Studies’ that would take all of 30 seconds to google even if one did not already know of its existence.

    Most people, but especially those in So Cal, know of the reputation of a University like UCLA – and what MLD’s niece has done is an incredible achievement that should be celebrated at this time of graduation for so many, at all levels.

    For humor’s sake – here is a discussion of prospective PhD applicants in the field of Holocaust Studies I stumbled across – discussing among other schools, the UCLA program.

    http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/16061-holocaustgenocide/

  140. Scott says:

    MLD, apology accepted. No one is opposed to a little back and forth from time to time. However, this running feud is nauseating. Too be honest, I don’t even know what the point is that is trying to be made most of the time. I’m glad you’ve decided to put it to rest. Now if MTM would just do the same.

  141. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t know if two links sends to moderation, so I use a 2nd post for this link.

    Just look at how hard it is just to be eligible for the PhD program at UCLA in this field, much less what one has to do to earn it.

    http://www.history.ucla.edu/academics/fields-of-study/jewish

  142. mrtundraman says:

    LOL. There’s nothing on Steve’s link which says UCLA has a PhD in Holocaust Studies. They have PhDs in plenty of other things, but none in Holocaust Studies. You can get a PhD in History and specialize in Holocaust Studies but you can’t get a PhD in Holocaust Studies and a BLOG where people discuss Holocaust Studies which doesn’t even say that UCLA has a PhD in Holocaust Studies is a pretty weak proof.

    There are many PhD such as sociology, art, and history which can specialize in a degree such as Holocaust Studies, but there’s only one university which offers a PhD specifically in Holocaust Studies.

    Thanks for your attempt a humor. It did make me laugh.

  143. mrtundraman says:

    “Just look at how hard it is just to be eligible for the PhD program at UCLA in this field, much less what one has to do to earn it.”

    That’s a PhD in History. I have no problem with that as a major. It’s a real major unlike the one that MLD made up for his niece. Again, I don’t think he’s deliberately lying even though he’s accused me many times of being a liar. I think he’s just mistaken. He never saw her diploma and if he did it was a PhD in Holocaust Studies. It was a PhD in some other subject as I suggested above.

    Keep digging Steve. Maybe you can find the imaginary PhD in Holocaust Studies at UCLA.

  144. Steve Wright says:

    Tundra, you fool. I could link right now to TWO different websites for MLD’s cousin securing this PhD at UCLA.

    I don’t know how you can claim Jesus and sleep at night.

  145. mrtundraman says:

    “UCLA has a large, distinguished ‘Center for Jewish Studies’ that would take all of 30 seconds to google even if one did not already know of its existence.”

    Here’s a page which lists the students studying Holocaust Studies at UCLA and their actual majors:

    http://www.cjs.ucla.edu/projects/holocaust-studies.html

    Didn’t even take me 30 seconds to show MLD was wrong about this PhD…

  146. mrtundraman says:

    Steve, I have no doubt that MLDs niece received an PhD from UCLA. What was the degree in? Was it a PhD in History with a specialty in Holocaust Studies or was it, as MLD claimed a PhD in Holocaust studies?

  147. mrtundraman says:

    Perhaps the distinction is lost on you, Steve? I have an Bachelor of Science in Engineering (BSE) with an emphasis in Electronics Engineering. That is not the same degree as an BS in Electronic Engineer (BSEE).

  148. Scott says:

    Knock it off MTM.

  149. Steve, you need to Zen out when talking with cyber stalkers.

    Take my advise and unplug with him.

    Said from the Lotus position. 🙂

  150. mrtundraman says:

    UCLA isn’t the kind of school that makes up degrees all the time…

  151. Xenia says:

    I also attended the University of California graduation of a family member yesterday. I am going to keep the particulars to myself!

  152. mrtundraman says:

    “Tundra, you fool. I could link right now to TWO different websites for MLD’s cousin securing this PhD at UCLA.”

    I think it was niece, not cousin.

  153. Xenia says:

    But I will tell you this- he had a specialized major that is not listed on the web site.

  154. MLD’s #154 makes sense to me Steve. The power is in talking to him. I have been off and on with him all day. He still can’t see that he has done anything wrong. Yep, mind boggling, but if MLD can zone him out maybe we should too.
    You get tired off speaking to an empty room. 😉

  155. Steve, it is quite humorous when you deal with cyber stalkers/ bullies they keep on going.

    I mentioned my niece’s degree over 30 hours ago. I made reference to the type once. The cyber stalker kept questioning and insulting for quite a while. You will note that I never disputed his claims, never said if I was right or wrong – but this guy has probably made 30 comments on the topic.

    Zen Steve – Zen. 🙂

  156. mrtundraman says:

    I found the page too. I won’t list her name, just initials…

    Dr. C-S completed her PhD in History at UCLA in 2013.

    That took a grand total of 30 seconds. Not a PhD in Holocaust Studies. A PhD in History…

    How do you sleep at night, Steve?

  157. mrtundraman says:

    MLD wrote “You will note that I never disputed his claims, never said if I was right or wrong – but this guy has probably made 30 comments on the topic.”

    I guess I just assumed when you posted it the first time you thought you were correct. My mistake. I should have known you were incorrect.

  158. mrtundraman says:

    “But I will tell you this- he had a specialized major that is not listed on the web site.”

    If it is a near family member congratulations.

    I seriously doubt that there’s a major at a university which isn’t listed on their website since the university has a contract in terms of the college catalog which lists the requirements for graduation in all programs. Degrees not in the catalog would make accreditation problematic and all universities that I am aware of have their catalog on-line.

    Now there can be fields of study within a major which are all over the place. For My Masters of Theology I specialized in Eastern Orthodox theology. That meant that my electives were in Eastern Orthodox theology. My major and my diploma (if I had not converted it into a MDiv) were in Theology, not Eastern Orthodox theology.

    MLDs niece got a PhD in History and took classes on Holocaust Studies for that major.

  159. mrtundraman says:

    “You will note that I never disputed his claims, never said if I was right or wrong – but this guy has probably made 30 comments on the topic.”

    Steve, you should read MLD. Even he’s now backpedaling from his earlier claim.

  160. Michael says:

    My day of extreme felicity has been greatly disturbed.
    Family has always and will always be off limits on this blog.

  161. Michael says:

    MTM has been put on moderation…to the degree I can from where I am.
    I’m now returning to nature.

  162. mrtundraman says:

    “Now there can be fields of study within a major which are all over the place. For My Masters of Theology I specialized in Eastern Orthodox theology. That meant that my electives were in Eastern Orthodox theology. My major and my diploma (if I had not converted it into a MDiv) were in Theology, not Eastern Orthodox theology.”

    If you looked at my transcript you’d see that all of my electives were in EO theology. For the MATheology program that’s only three or four specialized classes. For a PhD you’d have a chance to have more classes in your specialty.

    Her specialty, according to the website, wasn’t the holocaust, but the time between the Holocaust and the settlement of the Jewish state.

    Perhaps she had to dumb it down for her uncle when she explained what she took…

  163. mrtundraman says:

    And MLD attacked my father… Is he going to be in mod?

  164. mrtundraman says:

    Read the thread Michael. There’s no attack on MLDs niece by me. Anywhere.

  165. Xenia says:

    Well I will stop here. I am not going to wrangle with MTM over my relative’s degree which I heard announced yesterday with my own ears.

    I am joining MLD and zipping my lips.

  166. Glen says:

    Hi Xenia,

    How are your chickens doing? Mine are so much fun – especially when they come to the door and squawk until they get a treat like cottage cheese or string cheese. Today they were 6 for 6! God’s wonderful creatures………..

  167. Xenia says:

    Glen, the girls are doing great! A nice thing happened at church today. A friend said she’d pay the extra expense to buy organic hen feed in exchange for a dozen organic eggs every week. (My husband wasn’t too keen on coughing up the extra money for fancy hen feed.) So this is a happy arrangement that benefits us all. We usually get 5 for 5. (Hen number six, Rhonda, passed on to that Great Henhouse in the Sky a few months ago.)

    I do see the goodness of God in those hens 🙂

  168. Glen says:

    To clarify – only 3 of them regularly beg. Today they were 6 for 6 in laying eggs………
    I bought a copy of the film, The Island. Dark, bleak, redemptive. I had to experiment to get the subtitles to work. It is very well done and I will watch it again someday. Right now I loaned it to the lady who cuts my hair. I’m curious how she will like it. Thanks for mentioning The Island.

  169. Xenia says:

    Glen, I am so happy you watched The Island! I love that movie.

  170. Glen says:

    That is a blessing! Except for melon rinds and seeds, grapes and cheese, mine have been on an organic diet with no GMO’s. I have a large grassy yard so they eat a lot of grass, too.
    I have been blessing family, neighbors and friends with the eggs…….it’s fun………
    Sorry about Rhonda. I can tell them apart, but I haven’t given them names. They all answer to chick, chick, chick…………

  171. Steve Wright says:

    I see this was all a semantics game.

    In all my years of discussing higher education with friends, peer and professors I have never seen anything like this display. Ask just about anyone in the Body of Christ about their PhD and they likely will not limit their degree to simply “Theological Studies” or whatever the formal school for their degree is called at the University.

    Lesson learned…know who you are talking to.

  172. Glen says:

    I agree Steve……..
    Glad to see this – I was afraid I and my two Easter-Eggers and 4 Black Australorps might have killed this thread 😉

  173. everstudy says:

    Holy cow what a waste of time I spent reading this. There’s 15 minutes I’ll never get back.

    Sometimes I wonder why I have the blog bookmarked. /sigh/

  174. Covered,
    Been away from the computer for a couple days. Yes, I’ve visited Crater Lake about 4 times in the last 25 years. My favorite thing to do there is to just stand silently and stare.

  175. brian says:

    I watched a divine liturgy online of the EO church I think it was the Greek Orthodox, I found it transcending, now I understand that condemns me and them to eternal hell, just like the Catholics, Anglicans and other liturgical churches. Basically we are all Satan worshipers. Of course that is utter nonsense on its face and any deity that saw things that way, need not be worshiped as it is an idol thus should be rejected. I think we agree on that. I love liturgy because it offers those I have worked with a pivot point to focus on the divine and on God. In my experience it has been these traditions that offer the best ministry to help the folks I work with God’s word. I could care less if God sent my heathen backside to hell, I have it coming I know that and have on expectations I really dont. But the liturgical communion offers a repetition that helps those I work with understand the Gospel.

    Most likely both populations will go to hell, I get that, but I love the liturgy it is so beautiful. I get the fact God hates liturgy so much he creates the foundations of the Earth based on Liturgy I get that. Well actually I dont but that is another post. I mean these folks stand for the reading of God’s word for over ten minutes, in most congregations that will get you excommunicated. I will admit I love the singing and the mystery, which most likely means I worship Satan. Never quite got how Satan got so much power, but that is another post as well. I think I could deal with being an Orthodox but it would mean I would have to admit that God does not loath my very immortal soul from the foundations of the universe, that is a line I do not think I can cross, given my evangelical past.

    I hear the transcendence, long for the communion but understand, never, it cant happen because I was, well human. The most vilest of sins. But I did enjoy the EO service, truly transcendent. For those of the EO faith, please research what your evangelical counterparts think of you. I think both are brothers and sisters, just goes to show what type of scum I am. If I get one truth I get that one, trust me, in spades.

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