My question this Saturday morning….
Has lying become a national virtue? ? ?
As a Believer i know who is the father of lies.
“Tell me lies. Tell me sweet little lies…..” as the old song goes.
Pastor Dread, i once knew a “lady” who was the master of the half truth… Could twist that half truth into a damning lie. You didn’t want to get on her bad side
Outside the camp? Sadly true… What makes folks so afraid of facing reality?
A Christian, a real one, should know we are flawed and dependent on God’s love, mercy and grace.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us……
A person at church who I had considered to be honest to a fault has told me two whoppers in the past month, things relating to real people he knows with Covid that could not possibly be true. Does he believe the things he told me? I think he does, which is more alarming than the stories he told me. Something has happened to him, something bad. And he’s not alone.
This is just crazy speculation on part, but like many of us, I am bothered by the irrationality I’m seeing everywhere. The Right and the Left are both espousing things that I could only call lies except for the fact that they are sincerely believed. HP Lovecraft, an atheist, wrote in the prologue to one of his horror stores that it’s his opinion that if the human brain could correlate all the little bits of information that it has accumulated in the course of its life, the human would go crazy. If we could see how everything is connected, even if it isn’t. The internet does this for us: it takes all the hundreds of little factoids and renders them into terrifying conspiracy scenarios, most of them not true, but are believed. And it’s driving people crazy, to the extent that they tell bald-faced lies completely against their character and actually believe them.
Someone said the other day that the reason mailmen don’t have to wear masks is because the post office made a deal with the Dems to only deliver Biden mail-in ballots to be counted, insuring that he beat Trump, whose ballots the post office didn’t deliver. She sincerely believes this is what happened, despite the fact that this would be logistically impossible. This is crazy talk, a form of mass hysteria.
You may be on to something.
A dear friends youngest son just died of Covid leaving behind 2 small children and a grieving family.
He was a convinced anti-vaxxer, anti-masks, and believed it was all a hoax.
I will say that if a pastor convinced him of these things there is blood on that mans hands…
Lies: in my early Christian years it was about lies the devil told us: you’re not worthy of God’s love, you’re going to hell regardless, you’re no good, etc. Nowadays it seems it’s about external things (politics, culture) and many don’t know what to believe. Maybe too much news/opinion shows consumption? More Facebook than Scripture? Frustrating these days because ore and more believers are caught up in worldly and useless debates and controversies.
This may apply or it may not to the problems we see in the American church today. Having been in full time ministry for a total of about 35 years and a Christian for 52, one of the elements that seems to have been lost is the concept of “us”.
From my vantage point (I am not a sociologist) the church in America has largely became about “me”. Revelation 5 says, “ “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
Who was redeemed? Us not “me”. Of course “me” is part of us, yet the idea of “us” seems to be lost today. Seems individual rights take priority to “us”. My right is being deprived by being required to wear a mask or get a vaccine. That’s not to argue the issue but to make my point.
I do/did both not necessarily because of a mandate but because science proves that it is the best way (not perfect) to stop the spread of Covid. Not to pst my self on them back but again to make my point, I did it for “us” my family and my friends.not “me”.
If it were just about”me” I probably wouldn’t do either.
In out worship, the songs sung are about me—they talk about my love for God, the cares I bring to him, the Love I have for Him or the blessing He’s been to me.All good concepts but this is not worship. Worship is Palm 29 “Giving God the glory due his name.
People change churches all the time. When asked why, the answers is more often than not “because I am not being fed”. Well, rather than being dependent upon your o pastor to spoon feed you a meal every week, learn to. Feed yourself!
My point in this rant is I think we’ve lost the concept of “us” as a body of believers.
When I was growing up (a hell of as long time ago) the hot magazine was “Life”. Then came the 70’s and it was “People” magazine. In the 90’s it was “Us”. Today, the hot mag is “Self”. I thinks lot of the distress and division in the American church would cease if there was a concept os “Us” again. It was what the first church was about. Hopefully if can be what the church can be about again.
Not to disagree or demean a lot of your comments at 4:09pm, I think the statement I quote here is myopic. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Confessional Lutherans, by and large, do not change churches very often. The reason being that in those traditions, the laity are not under the assumption that the church exists to serve their preferences.
Accidentally on and off topic, but has anyone yet had the booster “mark off the beast.”
I’m about to make my appointment to “kneel to Satan” and want to be prepared for side effects – I had none from the first two.
This supposed search for truth, may instead be a search for reinforcement of what people want to be true. The frustration from misinformation may be that people have made secular truth claims an idol. Tell me, should a Christian be surprised that secular leaders are fallible or deceptive? The truly exceptional leader would be a truth teller. It would be exceptional because he/she would be unelectable. Be honest, you don’t really want the truth; you want affirmation and to be indulged.
Jean
Maybe it’s not so much a search for truth but an agreement with what one believes is Grus. It’s like watching news channels. You listen to the ones whose values align with yours. I dunno
I spend hours every week listening to pastors tell their churches that it’s ungodly to wear masks and be vaccinated.
I would submit it’s more ungodly to kill your parishioners with bad advice.
Jimmie T. You should be aware that a basic tennent of the Faith is that sin and death , entered the World resulting from the Serpent’s deception. As a further result, Satan was called a murder from the beginning.
This is meant with no disrespect meant at all for Officerhoppy and his keenly perceptive comment at 4:09pm, but I have a small bone to pick with the idea of a pastor telling a parishoner “Learn how to feed yourself!” in response to the observation “I’m not getting fed”.
Every single person I’ve known who has stated “I’m not getting fed” when talking about their church has been a person in a very tough spot in their life — they may have been in that spot for a a week, a month, maybe years — and they’re at the point where they are wavering in their faith and are desperate for some sort of consistent instruction and encouragement (and maybe some spiritual spoon-feeding) from their church (which might be looking really irrelevant to them in their current circumstances) on how to actually see, hear, and experience the blessings of God through His Son Jesus.
And everyone I’ve known in that position who has directly or indirectly heard the message “Learn how to feed yourself!” from the pastor or their church or the church in general has become a Lone Ranger Christian — “Ok, then, I guess it’s just you and me against the world, Jesus.”
I’m not saying it isn’t tough for a pastor to be told “I’m not getting fed” — I’m sure most take it as criticism and get defensive and frustrated — but the response, “Learn how to feed yourself!” creates more of that problem — “me”-oriented Christians instead of “us”-oriented Christians — that you’re hoping to fix.
Saramorgan
Sounds like you are speaking from personal experience! Point taken. I have enjoyed 30 years of talking to, teaching, and being challenged by struggling and new believers. It’s one of my joys. But having been a pastor, for a lot of years I feel like my goal is “ 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[a] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes…” my desire is to help people think like Jesus. And part of that process is to teach people to “feed themselves”. A lot of mature Christians (not all!) never want to take the time or energy it takes to “feed themselves”. They are like that thing in “Little Shop of Horrors” saying “feed me Semore” Those are the people I am talking about. But, I hear what you are saying and appreciate the dialogue. BTW, disagreement is part of how we learn to think like Jesus! Keep it up!
There is as lot more I could say. The reason I even spoke to Rebecca was to bring some healing into people’s lives who have been deeply hurt. I have no ax to grind with ACF. I enjoyed it there and learned a lot—but also a lot of what not to do in pastoring a church.
To be honest (and I told this to MG earlier today) the greatest crime of JC was his manipulation of scripture to accomplish his own ends whether they were good or bad. He routinely misrepresented authorial intent and context. I mean “Koala bears? Grizzly bears? Grumpy bears? Is that the intent of the author in Gal. 2:6 when he said “Bear one another’s burdens?
I just hope people who have been heart can come to some sort of resolution. It took time for me and some candid talk with friends and pastors.
It’s all yours today…
My question this Saturday morning….
Has lying become a national virtue? ? ?
As a Believer i know who is the father of lies.
“Tell me lies. Tell me sweet little lies…..” as the old song goes.
Our political system is based on the lie today.
“News” is simply the lies one prefers…
Hmmm… good and probably true ponder, Michael.. how sad
Even those who avoid the lie have perfected the art of shaping the truth. Few truth tellers and fewer truth lovers abound.
Pastor Dread, i once knew a “lady” who was the master of the half truth… Could twist that half truth into a damning lie. You didn’t want to get on her bad side
Truth has been replaced by tribal narratives.
I find truth in the words of God and the modern poets and prophets…Bowden, Wendell Berry…others.
One must go outside the camp…
Outside the camp? Sadly true… What makes folks so afraid of facing reality?
A Christian, a real one, should know we are flawed and dependent on God’s love, mercy and grace.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us……
Tribal narratives…
A person at church who I had considered to be honest to a fault has told me two whoppers in the past month, things relating to real people he knows with Covid that could not possibly be true. Does he believe the things he told me? I think he does, which is more alarming than the stories he told me. Something has happened to him, something bad. And he’s not alone.
This is just crazy speculation on part, but like many of us, I am bothered by the irrationality I’m seeing everywhere. The Right and the Left are both espousing things that I could only call lies except for the fact that they are sincerely believed. HP Lovecraft, an atheist, wrote in the prologue to one of his horror stores that it’s his opinion that if the human brain could correlate all the little bits of information that it has accumulated in the course of its life, the human would go crazy. If we could see how everything is connected, even if it isn’t. The internet does this for us: it takes all the hundreds of little factoids and renders them into terrifying conspiracy scenarios, most of them not true, but are believed. And it’s driving people crazy, to the extent that they tell bald-faced lies completely against their character and actually believe them.
I will stay inside the Camp, thank you.
Someone said the other day that the reason mailmen don’t have to wear masks is because the post office made a deal with the Dems to only deliver Biden mail-in ballots to be counted, insuring that he beat Trump, whose ballots the post office didn’t deliver. She sincerely believes this is what happened, despite the fact that this would be logistically impossible. This is crazy talk, a form of mass hysteria.
Xenia,
You may be on to something.
A dear friends youngest son just died of Covid leaving behind 2 small children and a grieving family.
He was a convinced anti-vaxxer, anti-masks, and believed it was all a hoax.
I will say that if a pastor convinced him of these things there is blood on that mans hands…
Lies: in my early Christian years it was about lies the devil told us: you’re not worthy of God’s love, you’re going to hell regardless, you’re no good, etc. Nowadays it seems it’s about external things (politics, culture) and many don’t know what to believe. Maybe too much news/opinion shows consumption? More Facebook than Scripture? Frustrating these days because ore and more believers are caught up in worldly and useless debates and controversies.
…and that includes me too.
Dan,
I couldn’t agree more…
This may apply or it may not to the problems we see in the American church today. Having been in full time ministry for a total of about 35 years and a Christian for 52, one of the elements that seems to have been lost is the concept of “us”.
From my vantage point (I am not a sociologist) the church in America has largely became about “me”. Revelation 5 says, “ “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
Who was redeemed? Us not “me”. Of course “me” is part of us, yet the idea of “us” seems to be lost today. Seems individual rights take priority to “us”. My right is being deprived by being required to wear a mask or get a vaccine. That’s not to argue the issue but to make my point.
I do/did both not necessarily because of a mandate but because science proves that it is the best way (not perfect) to stop the spread of Covid. Not to pst my self on them back but again to make my point, I did it for “us” my family and my friends.not “me”.
If it were just about”me” I probably wouldn’t do either.
In out worship, the songs sung are about me—they talk about my love for God, the cares I bring to him, the Love I have for Him or the blessing He’s been to me.All good concepts but this is not worship. Worship is Palm 29 “Giving God the glory due his name.
People change churches all the time. When asked why, the answers is more often than not “because I am not being fed”. Well, rather than being dependent upon your o pastor to spoon feed you a meal every week, learn to. Feed yourself!
My point in this rant is I think we’ve lost the concept of “us” as a body of believers.
When I was growing up (a hell of as long time ago) the hot magazine was “Life”. Then came the 70’s and it was “People” magazine. In the 90’s it was “Us”. Today, the hot mag is “Self”. I thinks lot of the distress and division in the American church would cease if there was a concept os “Us” again. It was what the first church was about. Hopefully if can be what the church can be about again.
“People change churches all the time.”
Not to disagree or demean a lot of your comments at 4:09pm, I think the statement I quote here is myopic. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Confessional Lutherans, by and large, do not change churches very often. The reason being that in those traditions, the laity are not under the assumption that the church exists to serve their preferences.
Accidentally on and off topic, but has anyone yet had the booster “mark off the beast.”
I’m about to make my appointment to “kneel to Satan” and want to be prepared for side effects – I had none from the first two.
This supposed search for truth, may instead be a search for reinforcement of what people want to be true. The frustration from misinformation may be that people have made secular truth claims an idol. Tell me, should a Christian be surprised that secular leaders are fallible or deceptive? The truly exceptional leader would be a truth teller. It would be exceptional because he/she would be unelectable. Be honest, you don’t really want the truth; you want affirmation and to be indulged.
“Be honest, you don’t really want the truth; you want affirmation and to be indulged.”
NUTS
Jean
Maybe it’s not so much a search for truth but an agreement with what one believes is Grus. It’s like watching news channels. You listen to the ones whose values align with yours. I dunno
Believes is true—sorry. Damn spellchecker
Officerhoppy,
Well said @ 4:03…
Uncced,
I haven’t got the booster yet…still thinking about it…
I plan on getting it. Don’t really care about side effects after being hospitalized in Aug.
Michael @ 1:05
Speculation pure unnecessary speculation.
JimmieT,
I spend hours every week listening to pastors tell their churches that it’s ungodly to wear masks and be vaccinated.
I would submit it’s more ungodly to kill your parishioners with bad advice.
Michael- pure speculation on your part. JimmieT
JimmieT,
No…it’s not.
Michael @ 7:42pm
AMEN!
Jimmie T. You should be aware that a basic tennent of the Faith is that sin and death , entered the World resulting from the Serpent’s deception. As a further result, Satan was called a murder from the beginning.
Jimmie, what is your definition of speculation? I don’t see any in what Michael wrote.
This is meant with no disrespect meant at all for Officerhoppy and his keenly perceptive comment at 4:09pm, but I have a small bone to pick with the idea of a pastor telling a parishoner “Learn how to feed yourself!” in response to the observation “I’m not getting fed”.
Every single person I’ve known who has stated “I’m not getting fed” when talking about their church has been a person in a very tough spot in their life — they may have been in that spot for a a week, a month, maybe years — and they’re at the point where they are wavering in their faith and are desperate for some sort of consistent instruction and encouragement (and maybe some spiritual spoon-feeding) from their church (which might be looking really irrelevant to them in their current circumstances) on how to actually see, hear, and experience the blessings of God through His Son Jesus.
And everyone I’ve known in that position who has directly or indirectly heard the message “Learn how to feed yourself!” from the pastor or their church or the church in general has become a Lone Ranger Christian — “Ok, then, I guess it’s just you and me against the world, Jesus.”
I’m not saying it isn’t tough for a pastor to be told “I’m not getting fed” — I’m sure most take it as criticism and get defensive and frustrated — but the response, “Learn how to feed yourself!” creates more of that problem — “me”-oriented Christians instead of “us”-oriented Christians — that you’re hoping to fix.
Jimmie T,
How did you lose your mooring ropes to the dock of reality?
Muff Potter
It’s just a guess but perhaps from the 4 major strokes I have experienced in the last 6 months. Again it’s just a guess.
Saramorgan
Sounds like you are speaking from personal experience! Point taken. I have enjoyed 30 years of talking to, teaching, and being challenged by struggling and new believers. It’s one of my joys. But having been a pastor, for a lot of years I feel like my goal is “ 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[a] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes…” my desire is to help people think like Jesus. And part of that process is to teach people to “feed themselves”. A lot of mature Christians (not all!) never want to take the time or energy it takes to “feed themselves”. They are like that thing in “Little Shop of Horrors” saying “feed me Semore” Those are the people I am talking about. But, I hear what you are saying and appreciate the dialogue. BTW, disagreement is part of how we learn to think like Jesus! Keep it up!
Sorry your having a rough year Jimmie T.
The Roys Report has a new article out now regarding Applegate Fellowship
That Roys Report article has a picture of quite a handsome looking guy. 😉
Kevin
Funny man.
There is as lot more I could say. The reason I even spoke to Rebecca was to bring some healing into people’s lives who have been deeply hurt. I have no ax to grind with ACF. I enjoyed it there and learned a lot—but also a lot of what not to do in pastoring a church.
To be honest (and I told this to MG earlier today) the greatest crime of JC was his manipulation of scripture to accomplish his own ends whether they were good or bad. He routinely misrepresented authorial intent and context. I mean “Koala bears? Grizzly bears? Grumpy bears? Is that the intent of the author in Gal. 2:6 when he said “Bear one another’s burdens?
I just hope people who have been heart can come to some sort of resolution. It took time for me and some candid talk with friends and pastors.
Officererhoppy – AMEN AGAIN
It is sad when folk think that a clever turm (distortion?) of a Biblical phrase shows insight and a high Spiritual I.Q.