“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”
(Romans 8:18–25 ESV) https://accordance.bible/link/read/ESVS#Rom._8:18
I can’t find a date for the sermon, only that it was preached before 9/11/01. I’m sure this is a partial transcript, that this was taken from a longer sermon, but at least provides context.
And uggh, that sermon is rough. That was the SBC sermon through the 80’s, and a large part of the 90’s. Some are still preaching it today. I have many friends who were crushed under that type of preaching week in and week out.
My understanding is that the book of Revelation tells us that this cursed earth will be destroyed and replaced by a new heaven and earth – a new creation, if you wish
Rev 21:1
Used to know a Greek Believer, a sailor, who mourned that there’d be no sea in Eternity
God keep
The book of Revelation is highly symbolic…what is in view is re-creation…just as our bodies will be redeemed and re-created…I’d write more about the sea, but it will have to wait…
A lot.
Re-creation is a redemption and renewal of what was already created…because when it was created, God called it good.
Our bodies will be re-created, redeemed, and renewed…and so will Oregon be…
There hasn’t been a Christian scholar outside the dispensational camp that hasn’t spoken to the vast amount of symbolism used in Revelation…and even the dispies allow that much of it is.
As for the end of the sea…
The sea was highly symbolic in Jewish apocryphal literature…the Jews were not a seafaring people and the ocean was a place of evil and fear.
A proper interpretation of that passage would be that evil is vanquished and there is nothing left to fear…and you’ll still have beachfront property in the eschaton…
Last night, I finished a 6 week series on death and afterlife, and the question of the sea was discussed. Interesting that so many have thought so much on those few words in Rev21:1 about there being no sea in the new earth. If we go strictly literal (which I don’t), then we know there are bodies of water in eternity (the rifer flowing, etc.) Pure speculation, but our earth is now covered with about 80% water, so even if large seas are gone from the new earth, there would be plenty of room for substantial bodies of water. SO the question, then, is what did John mean with that little phrase?
1. From a literal perspective: John was on a small island. Patmos is 13sq miles. Everywhere John looked he saw sea. In this vision, he did not. That struck him, and he recorded it. The new earth that he saw was connected to the old earth, but had great differences. Was his intention to say that there would be no place for sailors to sail in eternity? I don’t think so. Just an observation from his viewpoint in the vision.
2. Symbolically: In chapter 4 John sees the throne room in heaven and there is a crystal sea separating God from his followers. Could it be that this sea is removed, meaning that God is no longer separate from His people? In chapter 13, the sea is where the beast comes from. Could the absence of the sea be a way to show that Satan and his followers, and his power, are no longer present?
And as Michael has already stated sea travel was far different in 90 AD than it is for us. What we would could consider an easy trip, for them would take months and still have a good chance of ending in death. John was literally imprisoned by the sea as he wrote this, so I think there is also validity to Michael’s interpretation there.
We all use a wealth of sources if we’re doing it right…I’ve never had an original thought in my life…putting those sources together coherently is the gift of teaching…
Right, and when teaching, I am always very open about my sources. I would love for them to read the sources, and then come back and discuss it! Most never will, but at least it is available, I guess.
Time for Em to bid you all adieu
Conspiracies? … YES! ! !
listen to Russell Brand on YouTube – a vignette titled ” So They Do Run the World”
God keep the Phoenix Peeps
Michael, you are what kept me coming back despite our differing viewpoints on many things…
But my family says I’m wasting time here,. I won’t tell them when I “lurk.”
It’s all yours today…
“The Gospel was not given to save civilization from wreckage. It was given to save individuals from the wreckage of civilization.” Adrian Rogers……
That is simply not true.
God is a big fan of civilization and order…government was His idea.
The Gospel is the good news that we have been reconciled to God…and one day the entire creation will be redeemed.
Michael, we disagree. All creation redeemed? NO!
Isaiah 54:16
YES!
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”
(Romans 8:18–25 ESV)
https://accordance.bible/link/read/ESVS#Rom._8:18
I believe Michael has it right.
Also…
The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psalm 24:1
Or has this Scripture somehow been abrogated/nullified?
I believe Michael has it right.
Also…
The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psalm 24:1
Or has this Scripture somehow been abrogated/nullified?
Didn’t mean to double post.
Two books that have changed my previous views of the “end times” and the future:
Tom Wright’s Surprised by Hope.
And this book by Richard Middleton — A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology
https://www.amazon.com/New-Heaven-Earth-Reclaiming-Eschatology/dp/0801048680/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=j.+richard+middleton&qid=1646028106&sr=8-2
That’s an interesting quote by Brother Adrian. I need to think that out, but it makes me think, and I like that. Thanks for posting that Em!
At first glance, I’m not sure Michael’s response really speaks to Adrian’s intent.
https://www.lightsource.com/ministry/love-worth-finding/articles/the-issues-we-must-face–16506.html
I can’t find a date for the sermon, only that it was preached before 9/11/01. I’m sure this is a partial transcript, that this was taken from a longer sermon, but at least provides context.
And uggh, that sermon is rough. That was the SBC sermon through the 80’s, and a large part of the 90’s. Some are still preaching it today. I have many friends who were crushed under that type of preaching week in and week out.
My understanding is that the book of Revelation tells us that this cursed earth will be destroyed and replaced by a new heaven and earth – a new creation, if you wish
Rev 21:1
Used to know a Greek Believer, a sailor, who mourned that there’d be no sea in Eternity
God keep
The book of Revelation is highly symbolic…what is in view is re-creation…just as our bodies will be redeemed and re-created…I’d write more about the sea, but it will have to wait…
What defines re-creation as opposed to new creation? ? ?
Revelation? Symbolic? Dunno….. 🤔
Em,
A lot.
Re-creation is a redemption and renewal of what was already created…because when it was created, God called it good.
Our bodies will be re-created, redeemed, and renewed…and so will Oregon be…
There hasn’t been a Christian scholar outside the dispensational camp that hasn’t spoken to the vast amount of symbolism used in Revelation…and even the dispies allow that much of it is.
As for the end of the sea…
The sea was highly symbolic in Jewish apocryphal literature…the Jews were not a seafaring people and the ocean was a place of evil and fear.
A proper interpretation of that passage would be that evil is vanquished and there is nothing left to fear…and you’ll still have beachfront property in the eschaton…
Last night, I finished a 6 week series on death and afterlife, and the question of the sea was discussed. Interesting that so many have thought so much on those few words in Rev21:1 about there being no sea in the new earth. If we go strictly literal (which I don’t), then we know there are bodies of water in eternity (the rifer flowing, etc.) Pure speculation, but our earth is now covered with about 80% water, so even if large seas are gone from the new earth, there would be plenty of room for substantial bodies of water. SO the question, then, is what did John mean with that little phrase?
1. From a literal perspective: John was on a small island. Patmos is 13sq miles. Everywhere John looked he saw sea. In this vision, he did not. That struck him, and he recorded it. The new earth that he saw was connected to the old earth, but had great differences. Was his intention to say that there would be no place for sailors to sail in eternity? I don’t think so. Just an observation from his viewpoint in the vision.
2. Symbolically: In chapter 4 John sees the throne room in heaven and there is a crystal sea separating God from his followers. Could it be that this sea is removed, meaning that God is no longer separate from His people? In chapter 13, the sea is where the beast comes from. Could the absence of the sea be a way to show that Satan and his followers, and his power, are no longer present?
And as Michael has already stated sea travel was far different in 90 AD than it is for us. What we would could consider an easy trip, for them would take months and still have a good chance of ending in death. John was literally imprisoned by the sea as he wrote this, so I think there is also validity to Michael’s interpretation there.
Josh,
That was really well done…thank you.
Oh, thanks. The thoughts are not original, of course. Taken from a wealth of sources.
Josh,
We all use a wealth of sources if we’re doing it right…I’ve never had an original thought in my life…putting those sources together coherently is the gift of teaching…
Right, and when teaching, I am always very open about my sources. I would love for them to read the sources, and then come back and discuss it! Most never will, but at least it is available, I guess.
Josh,
These are the dreams of a real teacher…I always have a book list close at hand…just in case…
🙂 I’ll bring a stack of books, hey, anyone want to borrow ? Literally did that last night. Came home with all my books 🙂
Time for Em to bid you all adieu
Conspiracies? … YES! ! !
listen to Russell Brand on YouTube – a vignette titled ” So They Do Run the World”
God keep the Phoenix Peeps
Em,
I’m sorry you feel that way, but the door is always open.
HUh? What happened here?
josh,
I’m not sure…
Michael, you are what kept me coming back despite our differing viewpoints on many things…
But my family says I’m wasting time here,. I won’t tell them when I “lurk.”